Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dumb question: What is the term for crappy splices between reels?

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Posted by Daniel Fuentz (Member # 1684) on 04-12-2003, 04:05 AM:

I see this quite frequently in the local megaplexes. At every reel change there is a loud "THUMP" noise, or there is a "crackling" noise, or sometimes the picture "jumps" at the reel change. I find this really annoying, and was wondering what causes it. Is it just someone being sloppy when they're putting the film together?

Posted by Brian Zeisler (Member # 1333) on 04-12-2003, 04:29 AM:

from my experience, i got that from using the solid yellow splicing tape. since the solid yellow tape completely covers the entire frame, you get that brief instant of black between the reels and the sound reader cant read the sound because, basically speaking, there's nothing there to read. [thumbsup]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 04-12-2003, 06:36 AM:

Dear Daniel,

Thank you for posting your question in this forum. There are no "Dumb Questions" only people too dumb to ask them.

In this forum the term you refer to is "Film Done Wrong!"

Please notice the tool bar at the left of your screen. Select the "TIPS" area and then select the "Splicing Tips" page for a very good description of how splices should be made.

If there is any gap between the stips of film after they are taped together, that will upset the film in its path through the projector. The clear space in the sound track area is the same as a full volume recording of a gunshot. All of these symptoms can be eliminated by using proper splicing techniques, machinery and materials.

I hope that we have been helpful.

KEN

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-12-2003, 10:01 AM:

I tried the way they show in the splicer tips section but I found that the picture tended to jump a little more at the splice than I wanted. Now what I do is just take a sharpie pen and if there is a bit of a gap at the splice I cover the gap with a small mark. Works great does not make a thump or anything. Years ago problems could arise when letting that sudden pop go through. There had been instances of horn diaphrams being damaged. And the pop was just so anoying to the audience.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-12-2003, 10:49 AM:

An overlap splice will definitely jump if your projector gate and trap are not aligned properly.

You will get a high frequency "pop" in the audio if there is any gap on a butt splice.

You will get a low frequency "thump" in the audio if you bloop the splice. (Not all systems have proper low frequency response to hear it though, and this is generally considered less distracting than letting a splice "pop". A properly made overlap splice is about as flawless as a splice for optical sound can get.)

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-12-2003, 10:57 AM:

Since I work at a single-screen theatre and have an obsessive-compulsive disorder, I can afford to spend my time cutting small triangles of tape and placing them just-so to cover the analog track. I use good tape (Permacel) and place it over the splicing tape so it's simple to remove, in any case. It works well, especially with nasty lab splices and sub-run prints that were previously built up with large splice gaps. We are an analog-only house; I don't think I'd bother with this if we were playing a film in digital.

Darryl's comment about the splice pops causing speaker damage leads me to wonder why. Although they're obviously loud and annoying, I don't see how they could be that much louder than the optical track itself at 100% modulation (taking into account any minor overscanned part of the soundtrack that would pick up additional popping). Certainly an impulse signal such as that would contain a lot of high frequencies, but it would still be subject to the same slit rolloff as the optical soundtrack.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-12-2003, 11:51 AM:

I don't think 100% modulation of an actual track is going to be anywhere close in physical size to a full width sliver of a gap going by, not to mention that the attenuation of the film base isn't there either. I don't know about the HF business either. I understand your premise--a nearly square waveform, Fourier and all that--but I doubt it really it's seen by the pickup as that clean edged. Slit loss correction (pre-amp HF gain) would compensate anyway.

Posted by David Rigby (Member # 1301) on 04-12-2003, 12:13 PM:

I usually use the clear splicing tape with yellow stripes for reel joins. If there is a slight gap then I make sure the yellow stripe covers the soundtrack at the join (but doesn't appear in frame, obviously [Wink]

). I haven't noticed any distracting squeaks or thuds on reel changes that have been spliced that way. That said, don't know if it's regarded as bad practice or not...just know that it seems to work for me!

David

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-12-2003, 01:13 PM:

Steve,

I was assuming that, since the soundhead isn't supposed to be scanning more than 100% (or 102% as I recall from some other discussion) of the optical soundtrack width, the intensity of any pop should be limited to 102% of max optical level, which would represent an increase of a very small fraction of 1 dB. Good point about the film base not being there. I suppose it should also be taken into account that a splice gap has no septum between Lt and Rt information which would further increase the signal... but still, only another fraction of a dB. Perhaps it's the summing of the pop to center?

As far as slit loss EQ, I was assuming that Darryl's "Years ago" situation implied older equipment that probably wouldn't produce an A-chain flat to 16 kHz. In any case, my point was that a pop, though rich in hf, would be subject to the same A-chain limitations as an actual soundtrack rich in hf.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-12-2003, 02:23 PM:

Christopher wrote:
Good point about the film base not being there.

Also the clear part of the emulsion on the VA track would have a non-zero density as well.

But I'd wager that the lack of the septum gap and difference between maximum modulation and the full scanned width is more significant than you suspect.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-12-2003, 07:16 PM:

My referance to the horns blowing out is with equipment that originated in the mid 70's and was not the best stuff to begin with. Mono sound was also used so it was not using a stereo cell so the signal was not split for stereo reproduction. I was screening a film once in a mono theater and a bad factory splice passed thru as soon as it popped the highs pooped out and we had to replace the diaphram. Since then we had to bloop the splices to prevent those inferior horns from going out. The newer higher quality and sturdier horns of today should be able to handle such pops but you would not want the audience to hear that.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2003, 10:22 PM:

quote:

Daniel Fuentz: What is the term for crappy splices between reels?

Answer: Fuck ups!

[Big Grin]

Posted by Daniel Fuentz (Member # 1684) on 04-12-2003, 10:24 PM:

Thanks for answering my question! At the multiplex I frequent, they have at least one person who builds films properly (I saw "The Hunted" there and all the splices were clean) and at least one person who doesn't pay attention ("Phone Booth" had some really nasty jumping splices [thumbsdown]

). I wonder if I am going to have to start asking who put the film together before paying my $8! [Smile]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-12-2003, 10:46 PM:

Regarding Daryl's comments: what type of horns did you have? I don't doubt that it's possible, but I'm curious about the equipment.

I've worked at several places with 1950s Altec Voice of the Theatre systems. I have only seen two blown horn diaphragms, which was the result of stupidity involving a wireless microphone user (which had nothing to do with film...the same guy blew both of them within the same month). Head and tail leaders running through the soundhead would seem to be a bigger problem than lab splices (assuming that the operators were incompetent enough to run the leaders through in the first place... [Mad]

), and, again, there were never any issues.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-12-2003, 11:21 PM:

You, as the paying customer, have the right to get your money's worth!

If customers just sit by and say nothing when they are dissatisfied with the quality of the product they are paying for there will NEVER be any improvement.

If you and others start asking questions and making complaints, management will eventually be forced to improve their quality... Or else you'll take your business elsewhere!

Even if there are no other movie theaters in your area you can STILL stay home and watch it on home video! And you should tell them that too!

The number one way to stick a (proverbial) knife in ANY self-respecting theater manager's heart is to say these five little words:

"I'll wait for the video!"

Posted by Daniel Fuentz (Member # 1684) on 04-12-2003, 11:33 PM:

To tell the truth, I never complained becuase I had no knowledge of how things work in a booth, so if the theater staff tried to fob me off with "that's the way the movie is" I wouldn't have known any better. However, now that I know for fact that there ARE things the theater can do to avoid this you better believe I will be complaining the next time I see this happen!

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-13-2003, 10:58 AM:

Scott, to be honest I can't remember what brand the horns were. Everything looked homemade to me when we took them out and put real speakers behind the screens. I don't know if it was jut a situation where it was ready to go or not but it just so happened to go when that pop occured. Then they started telling us to bloop the splices. Go figure:)

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 04-13-2003, 11:07 AM:

Darryl,

Thanks for the clarification on the circumstances of the speaker damage. Those things sound like they were on the verge of death anyway.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-13-2003, 11:15 AM:

yes at that time I was so happy when we sent that junk to the speaker junk heap. [Smile]