Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "Obtrusive" surround loudspeakers

This is topic "Obtrusive" surround loudspeakers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004837

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-29-2003, 08:37 PM:

No, not a B-chain query, but here goes anyway...

A lot of new builds here are multi-purpose venues, and many do not have surrounds or subs and use two channels for the stage, each side of the proscenium (I'm sure these compromises have been discussed to death here).

In any case, a manager in one such venue recently said they wanted to upgrade, but wouldn't be able to install surrounds "because they were too ugly" and would "disrupt the lines of the room".

I suggested excavating the walls but of course this would be too expensive. Therefore, apart from painting the cabinets and trying to source matching acoustic fabric for the front baffles, are there any low-profile quality surrounds on the market? Is this a future application of flat panel speakers (if their present limitations can be overcome?)

Apologies if this came up before - I did a search but didn't find anything.

Best

Brian

Posted by Tom Wienholt (Member # 1510) on 04-29-2003, 11:37 PM:

It seems that customers want to be able to clearly see the surround speakers on the wall. They WANT to know if the theatre has surround sound or not. I don't think that surround speakers do any harm to the appearance of an auditorium.

Having said that, JBL surround speakers sit pretty close to the wall when mounted. (they stick out from the wall less than a foot) I think they look quite nice on the walls.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-30-2003, 02:34 PM:

We have done many historical theatres where the surrounds have to be recessed into the walls and covered with wall fabric to match the rest of the walls and it usually works oksy as long as the fabric is light enough to not kill all the highs

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 04-30-2003, 04:07 PM:

If it is a multi-purpose room, are there no other objects such as lighting equipment which also "disturb the lines of the room"?
Like Tom said, some speakers like JBL are already not very deep. I do not think it should be a problem to mount a few of those without making the room look ugly. On the contrary, it signals to visitors that you are a modern and fully equipped theater! People are supposed to look to the stage/screen anyway.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-30-2003, 06:04 PM:

I think the answer is no. If you can't recess them into the wall - and since you say "excavate" the walls must be solid - there isn't any speaker that delivers the sound quality and quantity required that would be anywhere near invisible.
Dual-use and particularly historical theatres are acoustic nightmares for cinema sound. The design is usually to make the most of stage sound using reflective surfaces and careful room shaping. Modern live theatres don't use this approach as most "acoustic" shows are well amplified, so only real concert halls get this kind of classical auditorium acoustic design.
Almost any old auditorium - with the usual molded plaster walls and hardwood floors - will sound much better for film and live events after an acoustic rework to soften the room and reduce reverberation.
Without that kind of renovation, adding a 5.1 system will probably give you muddy garbled sound and although the sound is louder you'll be straining to understand dialogue.
Centre channel mono or L/C/R only is what I think would be best if you have an auditorium designed for unamplified live theatre.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-01-2003, 08:43 AM:

Actually...the surrounds are not the issue on the muddy sound...in a live room don't install modern vented box speakers...they will give you muddy sound...think horn-loaded. Horn-loads do not use the room's acoustics to create their environment...they control the pattern to direct the sound to the audience.

As to the surround issue...the flat panel speakers are very inefficient and they couple that with low power handling so they are not the best solution.

Speakers are getting smaller and louder so being able to hide them is getting easier but as you go down in quantity, so goes your uniformity and the ability to create a diffuse sound field.

There is no easy answer since the esthetic police vary by venue.

Steve

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 06-05-2003, 08:12 PM:

Have been off the air for a few weeks - many thanks for your replies.

Dave, you'll be glad to hear this theatre has since been talking about adding acoustic treatment to their walls, so that changes everything. Perhaps it may be then be possible to "recess" the surrounds along the lines of what you were saying Gordon, depending on the depth of the absorption.

Michael, no, the lighting is well up on gantries above the line of the proscenium (the overall void is matt black). There are fixtures either side of the proscenium but these are well in from the walls.

Steve - they would go for proper horn-loaded stage speakers... however they have to replace their non-perforated roller screen first [Eek!]

Moral of the story - don't make these compromises when trying to do theatre / cinema??!!

Thanks again!