Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Who produced the most 70mm projectors?

This is topic Who produced the most 70mm projectors? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004868

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 05-09-2003, 08:43 AM:

It just occurred to me whilst reading the Simplex 35/70 topic that it would be interesting to know which company produced the largest amount of 70mm (5/70) projectors.

In Australia, the Cinemeccanica Victoria 8 would be the most common 70mm machine, followed by the Philips DP70/AA11/EL 4000, Bauer U3 and DP75 in similar numbers. Others exist here, but not in large quantities.

Thomas Hauerslev's excellent DP70 site documents this machine, but what about the Century JJ, Cinemeccanica Victoria 10, Toshiba, Simplex, Balantyne, Philips/Kinoton DP 75?

Does anybody have production figures on other brands, what is/was the most common 70mm projector in your part of the world?

David Kilderry

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2003, 08:34 PM:

In the states I would guess its the DP-70 by a large margin. There are alot of JJ's here too. Also, Sillyplex Odeon bought a large number of the 35/65mm Simplex's in the mid to late 80's for what ever reason. Most have straight gates for 35mm and curved 65mm gates to run 70mm on..... [Eek!]

We are about to put a rather large number of DP-70's back into service for 35mm operation mainly. These will all have a DTS "Attic" mounting plate which we designed to go in place of the original mag penthouse and will accomodate both the 35mm and 70mm DTS readers. Of course the mag stuff can be reinstalled if needed at any time but we feel the addtition of the DTS plate will allow the machine to keep up wuith the times for both 35 and 70mm film. The film path will be very similar to the old mag path and will utilize both the upper sprockets, one 35/70 giude roller and the original tensioning arm and pointer. This will provide the most reliable film flow through the DTS readers and high reliability TC playback.
Mark

Sorry for the mag stripe film here...its all there was floating around the shop at the time.....

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-09-2003, 09:28 PM:

So, I'm guessing there's probably a good reason [Wink]

why nobody mentions Christie when talking 70mm projectors. Didn't Edwards Theatres deploy quite a few Christie 35/70s in the 80s? [Big Grin]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-09-2003, 09:57 PM:

Christie makes (made?) a 35/5-70 projector?

Around here (Boston area), Norelcos and JJs are the most common. I do agree with Brad, BTW, that JJs seem to give a steadier picture with 35mm than 35mm Centurys. As a side note, I don't think I've ever personally seen a Simplex 35/70 anywhere, though I know a theatre (the Naro in Norfolk, VA) with a pair of Bauer 35/70s.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-09-2003, 10:51 PM:

Christie distributed the Westrex electronic 35/70 (5-8perf) projector under the epic badge
In canada the largest installed base is Vic8's followed by Simplex then ballantyne then DP75's then DP70's then VIc10's then JJ's and Prevost tied for last place

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-12-2003, 08:44 AM:

Does everyone agree with Mark's assertion that the DP70/AAII was the #1 70mm projector in the USA? I'm not in disagreement; I would just like to see some discussion. Thomas' site says 1500 were made; I don't know how many of those came to the States. What do we know about serial number counts on the JJ? And the machines converted to JJ's from Cinerama heads must be included too. Is it safe to presume that JJ's outnumber everything except the big Norelcos (if not them as well)?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-12-2003, 09:12 AM:

In the US I would think think that the simplex 35/70 would have the largest installed base since they were the standard machine installed during the 80's

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2003, 10:55 AM:

If I were to hazard a guess, I would have bet on the JJ having the largest installed base in the US. Norelcos are sure popular but I don't believe they out number JJs.

Worldwide, that is another story...with Bauer, Cinemeccanicca, Prevost...all cutting in the the pie in significant numbers, I would find it odd for a dominant projector manufacturer except in certain countries...like Italy where Cinemeccanicca would surely be the most popular.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-12-2003, 11:35 AM:

In the uk, it's almost certainly Cinemeccanicca Vic 8s, mainly because Rank installed them in just about all of the Odeons at one time, late '60s/early '70s, I think. Many, possibly most, of them never ran a foot of 70mm. In many of the installations it was simply not possible, no mag heads were fitted, no six channel sound installation, and, in later days, 35mm only platters, rollers, etc. A few Vic.Xs were installed by Odeon, Leicester Square had three of them when I visited the place, one of which is now at the Projected Picture Trust's Enigma Cinema at Bletchley Park.

At the same time ABC, the other large British chain, were using DP75s, But I'm sure they installed far less than Odeon. Gaumont had been taken over by Odeon by this time. There were some smaller chains, but very few of their houses would have had 70mm.

American machines are not common, I don't think I've ever seen one, but I think the BFI IMAX has a pair. Projection box visits don't seem to be possible there, so I've never seen them.

There was no British made 70mm machine, there hasn't even been a 35mm one for many years, there were rumors that Kalee were working on one at the time of their demise in 1958, but an advertisment for the new Rank Kalee 70mm projector, which I saw at Bletchley Park shows what is clearly a Vic.X; the ex. Leicester Square one was standing just a couple of metres away. Rank were the uk distributers for Cinemeccanicca equipment.

American 35mm machines were not so uncommon at one time, but most new installations today are Cinemeccanicca or Kinoton.

The older installations, from the '50s and early '60s were normally DP70s, but there weren't as many of them. My one experience of running 70mm was on a pair of DP70s, or rather half a pair, we were using two operators, so I only got to run one machine. For some reason, the print came in on loads of small reels, from memory, I think some of them were only about a thousand feet, so we had changeovers every few minutes

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 05-12-2003, 01:01 PM:

Yeah, Steven - Not only did Rank install Vic 8's in great numbers - As far as i know, they even took out DP 70's to put in the Vic's (Dominion among others), just because they should really show their own import. [Eek!]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-12-2003, 02:15 PM:

Per wrote:

quote:
Yeah, Steven - Not only did Rank install Vic 8's in great numbers - As far as i know, they even took out DP 70's to put in the Vic's (Dominion among others), just because they should really show their own import.

Vic 8s also replaced DP70s a few years ago at the former MOMI cinema, now NFT3.

I once heard it said that the reason Rank installed dual gauge machines in so many of the Odeons was to get round some sort of import restriction (tariff or quota) which applied at that time to 35mm machines but not to 70mm, which were treated as a special case; a bit like the Astoria running Around the World in Eighty Days in 34mm to get around some British films quota on 35mm. I don't know if this is correct, but they certainly installed many Vic. 8s on which they never intended to run 70mm. Does anyone else know?

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 05-12-2003, 03:09 PM:

Rank installed may 35/70 Vic 8's as it was cheaper to import the 35/70 machine into the u.k. than buy a 35mm only mech form the U.K.
As no one in the U.K. made a 35/70mm mech, you could do the imort and have a TAX break. If someone did make a british 35/70 mech, the Vic 8's would of been very expensice to import compared to a British made Mech.

I guess many DP's were taken out and replaced by Vic8's, as the VIc 8 is more friendly for automation use, as on a DP you can't change apperture plates without stoping the mech. One major
diss-advantage i say.

I was told the NFT put Vic 8's into NFT 3 as NFT 2 had them and it made sence to keep the machines the same, and the DP's in NFT 1 were on the cards to be replaced too.

The BFI IMAX has 2 Century JJ's, serviced by Future Projections of London. A very nice IMAX box indeed. Even has a Leather sofa!!

Darren

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-12-2003, 03:18 PM:

Was the Westrex 5000 not 35/70 and built here?

At any rate, up here the Fedi 35/70 XT was popular, but only really because Scotlands largest chain, Caledonian Associated Cinemas, had a quantity of them. Outside of CAC you had Odeon and ABC, and you already have the Odeon and ABC history with Cinemec and Phillips/Kinoton.

All the 70mm installs we've done in recent memory have used the Century JJ. Save for the 8/70 stuff which is Balantyne. The Westrex/Christie Epic was trialled in that application but proved to unreliable.

Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 05-12-2003, 03:33 PM:

Think your right about the Westrex, must of not been around when rank were buying the many Vic 8's though.

Have Fun
Darren

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 05-12-2003, 04:55 PM:

Yes there was a British Built and Designed 35/70mm Projector in the late 60's
This was the Westrex 5000 (owned by Litton Industries) in 1968 (approx).

We belived Westrex produced this projector with the aim to stop Rank importing the RK60 (Victoria 8) into the UK as the home market with many independant cinemas were looking to install 70mm in the late 1960's, but only Star/Classic Cinemas and a hand full of Cinemas had the full Westrex 70mm installation, I belive that were about 12 sets built in the Uk and several were in the US were the full 70mm kit.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 05-12-2003, 07:07 PM:

A pair of Westrex 5000 35/70mm projectors were installed in the West End of London, at the Prince Charles Cinema. These replaced the Philips FP20s for the 70mm facility. I thought the Westrex 5000s ran very nicely and I was impressed with the picture on 35 & 70mm. When Cannon Cinemas took over the Prince Charles, two Philips DP 75s 35/70mm were installed but also with a platter facility.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-12-2003, 09:24 PM:

Well at last count I have 12 westrex 5000 heads in the barn so there was probably a lot built probably a lot only ran as 35mm machines though

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2003, 08:30 AM:

There are still at least two sets of 35/70 Westrex 5000's installed in a theatre just north of Salt Lake City. I also know of at heast a half dozen 35/70's in storage for one of our customers. My boss was the US service tech for Westrex for quite a few years back when they were imported here into the U.S. and liked the machine....we still have quite a few spares in our parts department and brand new penthouses in stock!!!
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-13-2003, 01:08 PM:

Did anyone mention Crowns?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2003, 07:22 PM:

"Did anyone mention Crowns?"
_______________________________________________________________
I only know of three pair that were in the states....two pair of the DP-70 look a like, and one pair of the JJ look a like. I doubt there were many more than these.....
They would have made better meat grinders!!
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-13-2003, 11:07 PM:

Never saw a crown JJ lookalike but they made a Brenkert BX100/MI950 35/70 machine

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 05-14-2003, 04:25 AM:

I know of at least one plant of Toshiba Crown 70mm projectors here in Australia, they are the DP70 look-a-likes.

Interesting to note that at the peak in the 1970's, 12 drive-in screens (at 10 locations) here in Melbourne were 70mm equipped. Victoria 8, Bauer U3 and Philips DP 70 all represented.

David Kilderry

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 05-15-2003, 06:56 PM:

If one answers the question in the header, I'd propose that IMBO* Kinoton wins handily. The 570 machines made by Philips' Motion Picture Division, and its continuation Kinoton, include: AA-II/DP-70/EL-4000, DP-75, (570)GOTO, FP-75E, (570)SP-75E, MP-75E.
*(IM biased O)

Steve,
Have you ever seen a Cinerama head converted to a JJ? Why on earth would you do it?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-15-2003, 08:08 PM:

Larry,
Over the years I've seen about a dozen or so 35mm Cinerama heads which had been converted into a 70mm only Cinerama head. Not really sure who did the actual conversion....Cinerama's machine shop, or Century. Four of those I've seen were later on taken to full 35/70 function. I assume it was something that Cinerama provided the theatre when 35mm 3-strip ceased to be and "Super Cinerama" emerged. I converted a pair of those back to 35mm - 6 perf pull down for a special 3 perf over and under 3-D system then in development. They worked well for that purpose.

This machine is easy to tell from a real JJ as there is a thin steel plate which is inserted in a milled out area where the dove tail mount for the trap goes. With the old white paint in there its difficult to see the plate but its there. From my experience with them, all of these type 70mm Centurys were actually much better performing machines than the later JJ's were!! My experience with JJ's would dictate owning a machine with a SN lower than about 300. After that they were really touch and go as far as quality.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-16-2003, 12:11 AM:

Didn't Cinerama cycle many of their heads through for conversion and installation in former 3-strip houses which would in turn surrender their 6-perf machines?

Mark: Didn't the conversions retain the Cinerama patent notice on the back door and the Cinerama glass on the front or did all JJ's built for Cinerama get the glass?

Note the Uptown's Cinerama JJ's in the photos posted in the F-T picture warehouse.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-16-2003, 08:24 AM:

Steve,
Thats what I meant when I said that Cinerama provided them.....Generally thay are much, much better than any of the JJ's I've been in contact with over the years...and thats been quite a few pair of JJ's. Just donno if it was Century, or Cinerama that converted the three strip heads over to 70mm for Super Cinerama, but they are definately converted 3 strip heads. Am also not sure that Cinerama actually came and retreived their equipment in all cases since there are quite a few surviving 35mm 3-strip heads around. Some locations may have decided to convet things over to 70mm themselves with other brands of equipment and in those cases Cinerama may have abandoned the 3 strip stuff on site.
Mark

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 05-16-2003, 03:46 PM:

Live & learn. I have messed with those Uptown JJ's many times over the years and just thought they were regular JJ's with that odd Cinefocus hookup.

Is it any easier to convert a Cinerama head to a JJ than to convert a 4 perf 35 head of the same vintage? I'm thinking it's a big pain one would never do unless one owned a s-load of little-used about-to-be-obsolete 6 perf heads.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-16-2003, 08:16 PM:

Larry,
Couldn't say which would be easier to convert although the comparison between the 35mm cinerama head and the 70mm is not great. Any tool and die guy could fit the plate in place where the dovetail needs to mount. Then there is the movement which is altogether different. Different C/L for the intermittent sprocket and so forth. You'd need a whole new movement or at least the front half.
I've seen about a half dozen 35mm 6 perf heads that are now running 35mm 4 perf out in this neck of the woods. Probably needed more so these days would be to convert them back to 6 perf!!!
Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-17-2003, 12:12 PM:

Larry, Mark

I don't think the Uptown's heads were ever 6-perf 35mm. I think they were just early JJs...somewhere we even have the old "H" style gates/traps. There is more JJ to them than not...they are pre JJ2 though. I believe there was a period where the Uptown could run 3-strip and Super-Cinerama 70mm.

Now here is one for you Mark...the Uptown's heads have always had a mis-match between the Lens centerline and the trap's aperture centerline (vertically)....ever seen that before? It is one thing I've been meaning to deal with for many years now since we get dark corners on the top of scope films (vignetts the lens).

Steve

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-17-2003, 01:58 PM:

20/20 hindsight of course but too bad they didn't design the gate and trap parts so that the mounting to the casting was the same for all models, with the differing alignments built right into the component parts, whether 6-perf, 4-perf, or dovetail for dual-gauge machines.

Steve, do the Uptown machines have the Cinerama patent notice on the back doors?

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 05-17-2003, 03:44 PM:

I have DP70 serial # tag #2043 which was a parts machine, so unless they started with a number other than one......

Here's a DTS bracket I built about 4 years ago for a guy

(I know it's not threaded properly)

I never used this set up preferring to restore the mag head and build another bracket which fits where the upper fire trap attached.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-17-2003, 05:22 PM:

Steve,

Yes...one of the doors has the Cinerama Inc. plate on it, the other you can see where it used to be.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-18-2003, 10:08 AM:

Steve G.,
Its easy to tell if they were 3 strip machines. Remove the dovetail and see if there is a plate that has been inlaid into the main frame casting to re-position the mounting holes for the dovetail, the inlaid plate is about half the thickness of the normal center wall thickness. This can also be seen from the back side if you remove the fire shutter housing. Some fire shuter housings also still had the slot in them where the arm for the giggilo passed through to connect to the cam on the shutter shaft. The fact that they have C/L problems to me is another clue since 35mm Cinerama heads were made to work on C/L. One of your heads may be a converted head and the other might not be..... The H style gates and traps were the very first type and probably 99% of them eventually were replaced with the latter band style. Have never seen either a JJ or 70mm Cinerama head still using the older type gates and traps. They suck! The 35mm Cinerama trap has a solid flat H shaped runner with a large opening in it mounted on a typical screw down cast iron casting. The gigilo/water cell were directly behind the trap and the giggilos actually poked through the runner almost touching the edges of the film.

Greg,
We went what we thought would be the better route for the DTS mounting plate. I also simplified it greatly and had to machine but two parts to make them, all work being done in our machine shop. The final plates are powder coated white to match the interior of the re-finished projectors. It seemed a waste to me that you were not using the top feed sprocket with your adaptor plate and taking into consideration the amount of come and go problems many still experience reading time code in general, we decided to make use of the top feed sprocket as well as the original roller and tension arm. So its now completely isolated from any interference that can be caused by film transport devices, or static problems in the booth. We can also mount either the 35, or 70mm DTS time code reader and change over to either one in less than a minute. The threading path is also just about the same as it was through the mag stuff as is the bypass path past the reader and top sprocket. In this theatres case there are 6 screens equipped with DTS, and 2 screens with DA-20/BACP penthouses. Adapting the necessary parts off of the BACP penthouse....camera, LED, rotary stabilizer, and tight loop rollers is the next step and it will also be incorporated into the DP70 on future installs but we are rebuilding 10 DP'70s right now and time is at a premium. I guess we're upholding Phillips claim that the DP-70 is the most modern projector capable of running ANY current theatrical film format. There will also not be any problems of reaching up high enough to thread through a maze of penthouses stacked on top of the machine!!
Mark
P.S. These 10 machines will get the first 10 BACP analog LED conversion kits produced..... Watch for an upcomming review on this.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 05-18-2003, 11:21 AM:

When I designed it, I went for the maximum in adjustments, not knowing how the end user might want to apply it. I like lots of adjustments on stuff so I can do what I want with it. I also designed it to give the impression of massiveness that the rest of the projector has.
After deciding not to use an interior bracket, I built this one which mounts right where the firetrap normally does

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-18-2003, 11:30 AM:

Think the FP-75E wins in the most modern projector that can run any of the modern formats...Both DTS and magnetic formats are available at the same time for 70mm. Dolby digital is within the normal projection film path for 35mm and rivals any penthouse for tracking.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-18-2003, 12:09 PM:

Steve,
Absolutely agree that its a neato machine, but I still cringe on the 75E's with that 20K plus servo motor being in there(Larry quoted the exact price last year on a thread here, sorry can't remember it) and yes, they have had some problems with them. A brand new DP70 movement is still available for less than 6K off the shelf if in fact one is ever needed at all when running 35mm.

I just went through and cleaned and serviced 12 DP70 movements that were 40 plus years old that had basically no wear at all to the cam pin and slot in the star!! We are updating and getting rid of the old style loading spring on the drive gear and replacing it with the later double split spacer when we find the old style spring. Show me a U.S. built projector that can equal the wear abilitles of this machine, the stuff we build over here is crap by comparison! Interestingly the DP-70 star is not all that large either, Philips obviously had the machinists, and knowledgable metalurgists that knew what they were doing. The radial cut star and cam surfaces are also much less prone to wear. I had one movement with starwheel number 22 inside it....still in like new condition...... The star in my machine at home turns out to be #99. The one shown here is a bit later in production, have seen them into the 600 range so far. The cam pin is also ecentrically adjustable for EXACT alignment with the slot.

With having the 35mm runners re-ground by Kinoton, or by using James Bond's new style runner, the picture steadiness is as good or better than the electronic machine, or other 35/70 projectors would be under normal day in and day out operation. And the shear weight also speaks for itself with the lens mount assembly alone being as heavy as an X-L projector head is, the weight alone also makes for steadier pictures on large screens.... at least thats true if the floor to the booth is properly done!! It has also been very econimical for our customers that use them. About all they ever buy are gate bands and an occasional sprocket and the projectionists really love these machines.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-18-2003, 01:33 PM:

The DP70's failing is it doesn't allow for shortfocus lens scope vignets under 50mm

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-18-2003, 02:49 PM:

There are ways to mofity it for that but it requires removal of part of the main casting, and welding a section back in place...which fortunately can be done in this day and age. Never had to do it but there is a contingincy plan in place just in case.
Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-18-2003, 09:27 PM:

Mark--for what it's worth, the JJ in cinema #1 at the GCC/AMC Chestnut Hill (pics in the gallery) still has the old-style "H"-type gate and trap. The 35mm picture is amazingly sharp and steady, with even focus from corner to corner (and center).

On a side note, the early-model Century SAs at the Williamsburg Theatre (also has pics in the gallery) had "H"-style gates/traps when I worked there about five years ago and we occasionally had issues with them (uneven focus, primarily). They have since been replaced with the current design.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-18-2003, 10:08 PM:

Mark, my statement stands based on the original criteria. I never claimed that an electronic intermittent would outlast a pure mechanical one, such as the DP70.

However, as to steadiness...I wouldn't be too sure on the DP70 topping the FP-75E...With the FP-75E you can go down the screen with a laptop and dial out jump caused by the projector and its components.

The FP-75E will win also on that both the optical 35mm and magnetic 70mm share the SAME centerline...thus when the lamphouse is aligned, it is aligned for both.

Steve

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-19-2003, 08:43 AM:

No more lens shifting? Offset 35mm sprocket teeth and other components is something that should have been done a long time ago. Easier to shift for the rare 4-track or silent 35mm print and leave the 2 gauges appropriately centered for their most common usage. Are the reel shafts set up for a 50 mil offset or is that too trivial to worry about at the reels?