Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cinemeccanicca Tower Motor Question

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2003, 04:48 PM:

Just need to replace the bearings in this motor and can't for the life of me figure out how the gear comes off. Anyone out there ever run into one of these? There's no pin like on most of theor stuff and doesn't look to be threads to screw it in place either as the collar at the base of it is too thin. Tried a gear puller to no avail either......???
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-10-2003, 04:51 PM:

Looks like it's pressed on to me. Did you try a gear puller?

Looks like you beat me with an edit, nevermind.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2003, 04:55 PM:

Yea, tried a gear puller on it...didn't budge...
Mark

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-10-2003, 04:59 PM:

I've had a hell of a time pulling some gears off of some a/c fuel pumps before (due to magnetism), maybe it is just 'super magnetised' onto the shaft.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2003, 06:40 PM:

Daryl,
I temporarily reversed the rotation of the earth and the darn thing still won't let go. That in theory should have demagnetized it completely.
Really, I've tried everyting except machining it away!
Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-10-2003, 07:31 PM:

Have you tried harsh language and threats of violence?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-10-2003, 09:18 PM:

Try heating the pulley with a torch to make it expand slightly

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2003, 09:45 PM:

We aren't allowed to use Harsh language out loud in SLC. However all three of us in the shop have surely thought that to oursleves whilst actually saying how does this little devil come off?
We had thought about fire and flame but not tried it yet. Will give that a try next. Worse comes to worse, the guy at the D.I. buys a new motor if they are still available......
Mark

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 05-11-2003, 05:54 AM:

If it's anything like the V4 sound drum and other older Cinemec kit the pulley is installed under heat - not made for removal - good luck !!

Peter

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-11-2003, 06:05 AM:

Try speaking nicely to it in Italian.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 05-11-2003, 10:40 AM:

My bank for the time being has a poster hanging in the door, telling us all to "do, what we're best at", and claims, that so does the Bank.
You do likevise: stay with Your long raw of DP70 and sell the italian rubbish "as is"... Cinemec has never been for repair - it is use, plug out and throw away.

p.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-11-2003, 10:54 AM:

If fire and brimstone don't work offer it a capacino
they were pressfitted on with the shaft cold and the pully hot

Posted by Giorgio Volpi (Member # 1182) on 05-11-2003, 11:06 AM:

Mark,
ask for help to a workshop that has a press.
If you have to cut the pulley, it is easy to make another by lathe and then fix the pulley by screws.
It's not worthwhile to lose the motor for this problem.
Good luck,
Giorgio.

Posted by Fabrice Dubourg (Member # 1635) on 05-11-2003, 11:19 AM:

Did you know that motor is often used in washing machine ?

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-12-2003, 09:51 AM:

What about harsh language and threats of violence in Italian? What the SLC puritans don't know won't hurt them, but the pulley should get the message!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-12-2003, 08:27 PM:

Sad day here in the shops in Salt Lake City for the tower motor. She's a dead. Got the drive pulley off and tore it down only to find that the armature had a short between two sections of the commutators. Couldn't remove the short by cleaning between then either so he gets a new motor....
Mark

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-13-2003, 02:29 AM:

How'd you manage to get the drive pulley off Mark?

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 05-13-2003, 04:25 PM:

Hi Mark,

One time I've experienced on a Cinemeccanica (< Thanks Antonio [Smile]

) tower a ruined Bearing. No solution was able to replace the bearing. The only alternative for me was to replace the entire Motor unit [Mad]

It was cost a lot !
But few month later the manager of the theater called me to check an irregular noise on the tower:
I discovered that the projectionist here; put the motor with the maximum torque on his pulley. He had ruined the bearing one more time....
Some realy bad projectionist should be fired out... [Frown]

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 05-13-2003, 06:20 PM:

mark

You have to call it Cinemeccanica, while you call it cinemeccanicca you will never be able to extract it! [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2003, 07:08 PM:

It pressed right off with a larger arbor press. The motor would have been easily salvaged had the commutator not been shorted. The bearings are almost identical to those used in the Chrstie AW-3 drive motors. Its common, at least for us, to overhaul platter motors.....cut the commutator, install new bearings, and brushes, run it in at low voltage to seat the new brushes. We typically do around a dozen of all types a month. even the Strong/Potts/Stupid Platter motors are usually repairable! The tower motor lists for only around 400.00 U.S. which is alot less that I had imagined it wold be.
Antonio, Sorry I could never spell in Italian very well for what ever reason.....
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Rick Long (Member # 213) on 05-13-2003, 10:42 PM:

Thanks for the follow-up on this one, Mark.

Posted by Philippe Laude (Member # 79) on 05-14-2003, 07:34 AM:

Mark, Fabrice is absolutely right, this motor is used to run washing machines, mainly PHILIPS ones. The make of this motor is POLYMOTOR ITALIANA. It is a DC permanent magnet type and runs from 12V to 220V, from 500 to 22000 RPM with high torque even at low speed, that makes it very versatile, that's why it is used by other european manufacturers to run rewind benches, for instance. My tower is runned with such a motor and a friend of mines even built an electric go-kart for his son with the POLYMOTOR.

The first pulley I had to remove from a shaft came out very easily, the second one would just not go away, I had to machine it off on a lathe.

Here in Belgium it's not rare to find old washing machines that people abandon in front of their homes, for the garbage collectors to take away. I always have a look at old washing machines, each time it's a PHILIPS I take the motor apart(the motor itself is seldom the cause of the failure of the machine). This way I could satisfy several friends building towers like mine.

[ 05-16-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Philippe Laude ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-14-2003, 08:58 AM:

Philippe,
How does a company like Phillips goes from making the worlds best film projectors to making washing machines?????
Its a bit reminiscent of Strong also making chicken friers and road signs!!
Mark

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-14-2003, 09:56 AM:

Mark, is there anything Philips doesn't make? That company is into more areas of technology than the CIA, and they are more globalised than the entire globalised economy.

Antonio, I prefer "Cinemeclunka" , cos' that's exactly what their projectors do if you rip out the three power resistors across the motor start switch. Cinemeclunka is the only projector that needs a two-stage motor switch.

Not to mention that their red-LED reverse scan readers underscan the soundtrack. C'mon guys, you can make Ferraris and yet you stuff up on something as simple as a film projector? What gives?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-14-2003, 05:25 PM:

Ray said "Cinemeclunka is the only projector that needs a two-stage motor switch."

All projectors that have 3 phase motors require a slow start to reduce the start up torque
Ernaman 8 and 9's had them
The canadian U2 Bauers had them
The Prevost had them
The Wassman's had them
THe better and newer method is they drive them on an inverter and that provides a smoother start up ramp

The latest LED kits of theirs I installed had no problems with underscan

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-14-2003, 07:14 PM:

"All projectors that have 3 phase motors require a slow start to reduce the start up torque"
_________________________________________________________________
Better yet on these old machines install a solid state motor controller card to amke them do exactly what you want them to do
[Big Grin]

Mark

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-14-2003, 07:49 PM:

Gordy you are being so argumentative lately. [Smile]

Ok, I admit there are others, but we don't see too many of the ones you mentioned in this part of the world. In fact, what is a Wassman? Never heard of that one. I thought that was a mountain behind Berchtesgarden. (Ah no, that's Watzmann I think).

Also I was referring to Cinemec's reverse scan kit for the Vic 8 that slips into the bracket where the exciter lamp and lens used to go. Maybe they have fixed the problem recently but the ones we have dealt with, you can't get the lens close enough to the film because the bracket gets in the way (or is it far enough away? - I always forget). So you lose the extreme edges of the soundtrack and get peak distortion. The only way to fix it is to machine some metal off the clamp.

Mark, some folk down here have been installing motor controllers to speed up the projector so they can squeeze another session in each day. Then they wonder why they start getting problems with digital.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-14-2003, 08:20 PM:

Wassman is a Spanish projector builder and they also make a line of THX approved speakers as well

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-16-2003, 05:01 AM:

Gordy, so why is it that the European manufacturers seem to generally go for 3-phase motors (at least in the past) and the US manufacturers seem to prefer single phase? Something to do with prevailing mains conditions?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-16-2003, 06:24 AM:

I dunno if I agree with that statement Ray, all of the old Westars, Cinemecannicas and Phillips that I service have single phase motors. Around here at any rate, it's the multiplexes with newer Cinemec or Century that have 3 phase motors without invertors. Of course there are plenty of 3 phase & invertors in the art house places.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-16-2003, 02:38 PM:

The advantages of 3 phase motors are many and particualy for sync applications they are preffered

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 05-16-2003, 03:19 PM:

The company I work for tends to go for inverters on their 3 ph motors..... smooth starts give better long term wear on equipment and make for easier installs.

However, I think the trend in multi plex's is to allow for easier interlocking as and when required. I'm busy installing Pennywise automation in two screens, to complement the other three screens, and they will have the facility for interlocking.... inverters are a must in such cases.

I'm re-wiring five Vic 5's to remove ton's of old redundant wiring as part of the same project.... I'd never consider anything but using inverters.... full control of start and stop speeds and very simple to wire and control.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-16-2003, 05:39 PM:

Pete, as will be obvious, film projectors are not really my area of expertise. I am a sound and electronics man, so please forgive my ignorance about the many different brands and models. I know our service techs used to install two stage contactors for Vic8's, in order to automate them. The first contactor applies power to the motor via the resistors then the second contactor (which has a delay), bypasses the resistors. I believe these days they are using electronic motor controllers instead.

Ken, what type of inverters are you using?

Oh and speaking of interlock, we recently had a request from a customer with two projectors in every booth, who wanted to be able to interlock either projector 1 or 2 with either projector 1 or 2 (in any combination), in any number of other cinemas. So we added this feature to our Panalogic CA2000 automation system. So in each cinema you select which projector you want to interlock and which interlock group you want it to be a part of.

Somebody's always thinking up new ways to keep me busy writing software. (Put your hand up Mr Guttag).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-16-2003, 08:40 PM:

Actually I could care less if a motor is single or three phase. There are some very good single phase synchronus motors out there and some bad ones. we all pretty much know who makes the bad ones.....
Three phase synchronus was prefered in studios years back so all motors cound run from a master generator, but that stuff is all long gone and long obsolete. I agree that inorporating an electrionic controller on three phase is almost a requirement and does greatly simplify wiring and lessens the parts count in the projector base as well. It also extends the life of the gear train in front of the motor and probably the motor itself.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 05-16-2003, 09:53 PM:

OK, guys...I never had a failure in removing stuck pulleys using this method:

1. Install gear or pulley puller and snug it up.
2. Use an Oxy-Acetylene or MAP gas torch and get that thing hotter than Pergatory.
3. Snug up the puller more.
4. Give the driving screw a medium swing "Whack" with a hammer.
5. Snug up the puller some more.
6. Give it another "Whack" with a hammer.
7. Snug up some more.
8. If it has not moved, maybe use a bigger hammer.
9. If it still does not move, make sure the set screw (if it has one) is loose. [Big Grin]

10. If it still does not move, take it to a machine shop.
11. If they can't get it removed, then it is time to find another motor. [Eek!]

Actually, thinking about this, maybe it would be just cheaper to go directly to Step 11. [beer]