Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Ektapro 5000 - I need more light for these slides!

This is topic Ektapro 5000 - I need more light for these slides! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-13-2003, 08:02 PM:

Now I have already read threads from a while back and people make 'mention' of a couple of solutions for this problem.... But what I am after is 'details'. We currently use EXR300W lamps in these projectors, and that is just not bright enough. [Frown]

What are my options, and where can I find them? Thanks in advance.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 05-13-2003, 09:04 PM:

My Ektapro 7020 has a dual lamp module. Maybe your local dealer could tell you if it will work with the 5000.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-13-2003, 09:19 PM:

They have a DUAL LAMP module on them ... but it does not say 'Extra Bright' as in the pic on the linked page you gave me. I have heard of xenon options ... and something Navitar makes ..... does anyone have the details on these?

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 05-13-2003, 09:40 PM:

Matt we are useing the same type of slide projectors.they are ok on the smaller screens but not the big 55' screen.We have the dual moduls but there isnt that much of a difference.There is a setting on the projector to increase the light out put but it has to be reset after every screening so it is of little use, the buttons to push escapes me at the moment as I only tried it once but will find out for you.You can get larger wattage lamps for a few dollars more but thier life is shorter than the 300w and the result is a lttle better. You can get them from Osram which are cheaper to purchase from than other suppiers as they are wholesale prices.We are replaceing our slide projector in the big cinema with a xenon type in the near future.

Stephen [thumbsup]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-14-2003, 12:30 AM:

The brighter bulb is ANSI code EXW. Be warned that these a) don't last particularly long and b) produce significantly more heat than EXR bulbs.

What lens are you using? If it's a zoom, consider replacing it with a faster prime (fixed focal-length lens), which will give you more light on screen.

Navitar (and maybe others) sells a modified version of the Ektagraphic projectors with a 500w xenon lamphouse; it works quite well, though the ones that I've seen don't have any mechanical dimming mechanism (which means that they won't work with an external dissolve unit). Supposedly there are some models that have dissolve functionality.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-14-2003, 01:13 AM:

They are all using zoom lenses. Would prime lenses achieve 'that much more' light on the screen? ... i.e. As much as going to an alternative light source? And what's going to give more bang for buck? I was kinda hoping someone made a wizz-bang plug in module as an upgrade..........
BTW, the last batch of bulbs we got are EXY250W .... not really impressive [Frown]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-14-2003, 02:37 AM:

Sorry if this is stating the blindingly obvious, but if you're thinking about putting serious kilowatts behind a 35mm slide, it's probably worth making sure that all the slides are in glass mounts. I can see the film base expanding and contracting from the heat causing focus problems, and a worse case scenario of the slide getting nuked...

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-14-2003, 02:54 AM:

The slides all have glass on both sides of the slide.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-14-2003, 06:03 AM:

Although glass mounted slides will hold a flat field for focus (no heat buckle), sometimes the glass traps moisture from the gelatin emulsion which then comes out with a high powered lamp, causing "amoebas" on the projected image.

Going to a higher wattage tungsten halogen lamp will give an incremental increase in brightness at the expense of more heat and reduced lamp life. Either settle for a smaller image, or consider a projector equipped with an arc light source.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-14-2003, 09:12 AM:

Matt

Maybe it's time you considered going to "Digital" slides. Greater Union, Readings (and other exhibitors in Oz) have been using the Panasonic 6500 LCD projector for digital slide presentations for some time now and the results are soooo much brighter and sharper than traditional slide machines. Now the Panasonic is about twice the price of a 5000 so you need to weigh up whether the revenue from slide advertising is worth the initial outlay ("yeah, right" I hear you say). Val Morgan can supply the slides c/w audio on CDROM so you will also need a PC and some software for each cinema for playback. But going to digital projection also adds other interesting possibilities.

(Did I really just say that - (add digital projection)?? My my, an analog-only man has been corrupted!!! I'll go wash my mouth out with soap!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-14-2003, 09:46 AM:

Kodak's Digital Advertising Cinema Operating System:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/showWest03_cos.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/showEastKennel.shtml

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/digital/showEastLohan.shtml

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-14-2003, 10:30 AM:

Did I set that up for you John? Well it wasn't intentional, but I have to give you credit for taking maximum advantage of an opportunity. (9.46am eh? The early bird does indeed catch the worm).

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 05-14-2003, 10:55 AM:

Ray, To my knowledge the only Reading cinema That are useing Digital slides is Cortney Square in New Zealand as far as I know there are no Reading sites in Australia useing digital slides.The main reason is the cost and also the amount of slides(but I may be wrong and stand corrected). The number of slides I am screening seems to be droping.May be Digital slides may turn this around and if the cost of the hard ware drops it may make it more viable to change over.
We had a conference in Sydney at the end of Febuary where we saw a demo of the digital slide system useing the Panasonic projector you mentioned and I was very impressed with what I saw and heard very good on screen image and great sound.
Cheers,
Stephen [beer]

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 05-14-2003, 11:16 AM:

Stephen, traditional slide advertising in Australia, despite a very sucessful record over many years, has suffered badly in recent times because Val Morgan has gone through a period of very, very bad management. As I understand it, that management has been appropriately dispensed with, and exhibitors can look forward to greatly improved service in the future.

As for the distribution of digital slide advertising in Readings complexes, I have been to Courtney Square in New Zealand and seen the excellent results, but you may be right about the Australian Readings complexes. I can say for sure that just up the road from the Readings complex at Auburn (in Sydney) the Greater Union complex at Burwood has been running digital slides for several years and they look (and sound) quite stunning compared with other complexes running slide projectors.

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 05-14-2003, 08:32 PM:

Yes ray you are right on with the comment about slide advertiseing in recent times, I have 8 screens with at least 3-4 paid slides in each which is a huge drop when you consider that we had at least 10+ when we opened 3 yrs ago.But now that Val Morgan are restructured I am getting improved service with the rep calling on a monthly basis.

Regards
Stephen [Smile]

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-18-2003, 06:50 PM:

As much as I would love to see LCD projectors doing the advertising presentation ..... I don't think it will happen. We do all our slides in-house, so all the gear is owned by us..... and I don't think it is 'that' bad to warrant the outlay for the Panasonics. Is there really no 'upgrade' for the Ektapro projectors? Surely there must be a lot of them in service.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-19-2003, 09:03 AM:

You really need to consider a projector using an arc light source to get significantly more light than the usual tungsten-halogen lamps. Elmo has a 550 watt xenon unit (Omnigraphic 550 Xenon AF), and ORC used to offer modified Kodak projectors equipped with a xenon source.

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-19-2003, 06:52 PM:

Thanks John .... Any idea on how much these units cost? .... And also, do you know if these or other companys offer some sort of upgrade 'kit' or 'add-on' to allow conversion to a xenon source?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-19-2003, 09:58 PM:

I'd expect the units are in the high single thousands (USD), new. The ORC unit was the "Xenographic XL," available in 500W and 750W versions, and when ORC self-destructed, it was bought by Strong. I don't believe they sell it anymore.

I've also been told that the Navitar units are still available. Navitar's price page lists them starting at $7k (USD) for the 560W.

--jhawk

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-20-2003, 02:20 AM:

Ok .... Xenon is going to be out of the question [Frown]

.... but has anybody actually upgraded to these 'Navitar 40% brighter' light modules for the Ektapro series of projectors? I'd like to know just how much better the image looked ..... and don't say 40% better! [Big Grin]

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 05-20-2003, 09:08 AM:

The venue I work in is used for lectures and many other types of evernt, so we use slide projectorsquite often. Most of our projectors, all Kodak, are equipped with Gavi Lampmaster Duo units. On one occasion, we rented a xenon projector, and were quite unhappy with the results. The image was not significantly brighter, and the slides did not look "normal." I am assuming that the slides were processed with the color temp of an EXR lamp in mind. The "whiter" xenon lamp made everything look bluer than it should. That same night, we had the rental company bring in one of the Navitar units you speak of, and we did a side by side comparison of the Navitar and Kodak extra bright modules. The differences between the two were practically undetectable. The extra bright modules beat the brightness on the Gavi units and the Xenon projector considerably. It's been a while since I've used a Kodak projector with a standard lamp module, but I would not be surprised if there was a "40%" increase in brightness. However, as someone else mentioned, lamplife on the brighter lamps is considerably less than the standard lamps. As you do research, I would also recommend looking into the Gavi units, as they allow a bit more brightness by eliminating the mirror and allow for a quick lamp change if you lose a lamp in the middle of a presentation.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-20-2003, 09:31 AM:

I am less than impressed with the navitar upgrade lampmodule.
The cost per hour of operation would make xenon actually cheaper

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-20-2003, 10:50 AM:

Again, please remember that reducing the image area is also a tool you can use to increase screen luminance. I'd much rather see a reasonably bright 10 x 15 foot image, than a really dim 20 x 30 foot image.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 05-20-2003, 04:41 PM:

Hi Joe, Holy Cow, If that Xenon didn't stomp your tungsten machine (even with a Hot Shot module) there was something seriousley wrong with the Xenon. Most "rental" Xenon machines I've used Never have the lamps properly focused as the rental outfits defocus them to prevent burning the slides which is Bullshit. A Navitar Xenon 750 (750)watts properly adjusted will NOT burn slides & puts out over 5000 lumens. The best that a high bright "Hot Shot" tungsten module can put out is about 2000 lumens with a fresh lamp. They also make 1000 watt Xenon machines that put out over 8000 lumens without toasting slides. I own 5 Nav 750's and think they're fabulous BUT they sure ain't cheap. [Big Grin]

Posted by Matt Close (Member # 996) on 05-20-2003, 06:57 PM:

John ... I have already tried to reduce the image size .. but I did not get a 'big' increase in brightness ... [Frown]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-21-2003, 07:38 AM:

In general, if you halve the image area, you get twice the brightness. A 10 x 15 foot image will be 4 times brighter than a 20 x 30 foot image, all else being equal.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 05-21-2003, 08:19 AM:

One thing overlooked in the slide projector brightness derby is the speed of your lense. Most of the popular zooms are in the neighborhood of F2.8-3.5 thats a lot of light eaten up by the glass. If your throw is acceptable you may be able to use a fixed focus lense with an f under 2. which will increase brightness considerably. You give up some depth of focus but, if you glass mount your slides they will remain flat in the gate and focus will be consitant. You should be able to score the lense you need off eBag for $50.00

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-21-2003, 08:35 AM:

I agree. You will normally get better efficiency with a fixed focal length lens with a low f-number.

Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 05-21-2003, 10:08 AM:

Fred, that's what I thought, too, so I found the manual online, realigned the lamp, and it didn't look any better. Then, we had a tech from the rental house come over. He seemed to know what he was talking about. He said he installed a new lamp and tuned the machine up before delivering it to us. He said that they have had nothing but problems with the Navitar Xenons.

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 05-21-2003, 02:51 PM:

Dear Joe, I've found the Nav's to be super reliable. In the 12 years I've used them (I do a LOT of slide work-Mostly medicals in multiple double & triple screen presentations) I've had to go to a back up machine only once and thats because the Kodak AF3 projector head jammed big time. The lamps for those Nav's are $1000.00 and most rental houses run them to the bitter end. It could have been a power supply problem though they usually are go or no go. Hope you get to try out a good one, you'll be impressed too. [thumbsup]