Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Vertical Jumpiness on Simplex 35

This is topic Vertical Jumpiness on Simplex 35 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004938

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-27-2003, 09:54 AM:

I have one Simplex machine that is making me quite frustrated. The onscreen image appears to be vibrating vertically. It's not shutter ghosting. When I apply Filmguard to the print (or whatever print is running through that projector) the jumpiness subsides quite a bit, meaning that the projector must be having a difficult time pulling the film through the gate. However I must re-apply Filmguard daily to keep it smooth. The machine is difficult to turn over with film threaded, but super smooth without film. The band tension doesn't seem to have any effect whatsoever.

Also, when film is threaded and the motor is on, if the motor is stopped the projector slows down VERY rough. You can see the entire intermittent assembly move around as it tries to stop. Sounds very bad.

Ideas?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2003, 09:58 AM:

Joe, The movement may be partially seized up!! I'd get a qualified service tech in there pronto. What ever is making the movement do this is a serious problem.
MArk @ CLACO

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-27-2003, 10:01 AM:

Interesting that you say that. I tend to agree. I do have another projector which does not have the vertical jumpiness problem, but does have the same slow down problem... except on that one the movement is brand new (rebuilt). I put it in myself a few months ago. Strong sending out bad intermittent movement assemblies? The other two that I put in seem to be doing OK.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-27-2003, 10:15 AM:

What oil are you using? CPI by chance? Hopefully not. Be sure the movement is getting oil from the drip tube and watch the two tiny breather/overflow holes above where the cam shaft passes throu into the inside of the movement to be sure that oil is pumping out of them. If it is not then either your oil is to heavy, or these movements are not pumping correctly. Yes, Strong, and LaVezzi in the past has had some problems with new movements. Not to say these are any of those problem units. That was several years ago. Generally, its better to have a local tech rebuild them for you anyway!!
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-27-2003, 10:38 AM:

Century oil! That's all we were given and we were told it was OK to use in a Simplex. Of course I got Simplex oil in and have changed the oil and cleaned the filters, etc. But in the time we used Century oil we had 3 intermittent movements go out and another two on their way?

Why is it better to have a local tech rebuild the movements? What if the local tech sucks? There certainly isn't anyone outstanding out here in Colorado that I personally know of.

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 05-29-2003, 03:33 PM:

If you can see the intermittent moving around as the machine slows down you do indeed have a serious problem. Take off the back cover of the machine, here is what to look for. The clips that hold the intermittent in may have come loose (P-1704) or worse yet the framing cam retainer clips (P-1705) have broken off or are just not holding like they should, you can also verify this just by checking for tension in turning the framing. Check again to see if the cam moves around with the intermittent on slow down. If what I mentioned so far does not solve your problem... You could disconnect the projector head from the sound head by removing the drive belt or Gear, depending on your model. You should be able to grab hold of the main drive gear and turn over the projector head by hand, it should turn over quite easily under normal operation. If you know how to time the shutter you could aso pull the intermittent out and turn it over by the flywheel to see how it feels, it should also turn over easily, a very slight drag on pull down is acceptable, any other stiffness is not. If you need someone to rebuild your movement let me know and I will e-mail you my contact info. I rebuild projector for a living and have done hundreds of simplex intermittents.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-30-2003, 02:08 AM:

It turned out to be the stop screw for the gate.

Everything works fine now, but on this machine (and this machine only) a gear will bounce back and forth when the machine slows down. I don't have a part number (can't memorize them), but it is driven directly by a gear on the vertical shaft and is above the intermittent assembly. As the machine slows this thing slaps back and forth. I can't figure out why. None of the other machines do this. I can also make it slap back and forth by jogging the motor flywheel back and forth in quick succession.

Should I rip down the theater and reconstruct from scratch?

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 05-30-2003, 03:29 AM:

Joe,

Glad the first problem is solved.

Is it the moving gear in the shutter compensator? The assembly at an angle. This would be driven by the brown fiber gear
(G-1803)on the vertical shaft above the steel intermittent drive gear. If so there is probably end play in the shutter shaft.

Probably caused by bouncing from too much gate tension with the stop screw out of adjustment. After removing the back door the end play can be taken out by loosen the small allen cap screw on the end of the angle casting and pressing on the outer ball bearing until there is no play in the metal gear. Then tighten the allen screw back up. If that is the assembly with you reference with the moving gear that should fix it.

Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 05-30-2003, 11:31 AM:

A common problem I see is that contaminates tend to clog up the intermittent oil tube. This tube should be checked every time the oil is changed. I just clean it off and blow though the tube to clear out anything that could be stuck in there. I'd say that an oil starved intermittent is one of the more painful sounds...

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-30-2003, 11:53 AM:

Yes Dick, that is what I'm talking about. I know what you're saying and will do that when I get into work in about an hour.

There used to be lots of debris floating around with the oil when we first took over the theater. Now I have one projector that the oil gets reall dirty really fast no matter how well I clean the machine between each oil change. No debris, just dark oil.

Posted by Paul Salley (Member # 740) on 05-30-2003, 12:42 PM:

I have heard something about this before somewhere, new oil turns dark or black in just days. I believe they came to the conclusion that it was the type of paint ( not for sure if its actually paint but some sort of coloring )that was used on the intermittent.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-30-2003, 01:26 PM:

First, be sure the blackened oil doesn't contain metal particles (a strong magnet will attract any ferrous metal particles, and you can filter others for examination using a white coffee filter). Overheating (frictional heating or otherwise) can also prematurely discolor oil. Does the used oil smell "burnt" or rancid? If so, some bad things are happening.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-30-2003, 08:50 PM:

The oil doesn't smell burnt, but the discoloration occurs in just minutes. By the end of the show the oil will be much darker than on any of the other machines. I have changed it twice in the last two to three weeks. The machine runs steady and quiet, however.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-30-2003, 09:56 PM:

Century oil is a 20 weight a xl is 10 weight
to see if there is metal in the oil dip a magnet into it and see if it picks of the stuff

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 05-30-2003, 11:04 PM:

Joe,

I have had oil darkening problems from:

G-1803 shutter drive gear is a black one with a rubber insert. The older machines had these and I doubt if yours has one. They would turn oil dark and then the gear tooth ring would fall down on the intermittent drive gear.

Grease still seeping from sealed or shielded ball bearings and mixing with the oil.

Ball bearing starting to sieze up and spinning on the shaft. The ball bearing next to the shutter likes to do that.

Crud left in some of the assemblies when rebuilt. Found one from the factory like this once in both sprocket assemblies. Black crud left between the two bronze bushings.

Oil pump eating itself up. No brass gasket?

Dirty oil pick up & sump.

etc.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-31-2003, 01:18 AM:

Simples oil is indeed about 10 weight and it is nothing more than pure mineral oil without any additives at all. We recently has a sample analyzed so we can stock larger quantities in the shop. A local oil supply dealer provides this service through a Shell chemistry lab.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-31-2003, 04:28 AM:

Joe:
I also had the "crud" problem, stemming from the fact that the oil in my old Ballantynes hadn't been changed since the dinosaurs were still alive!

After 2 changes, where I drained half the oil, substituted kerosene for the difference & ran the machines for about half an hour, the problem went away.

I have a 5 gallon can full of black oil from only 4 of those machines... though they're now running very clean.

Posted by Alan Gilbertson (Member # 242) on 05-31-2003, 10:04 PM:

I had the same problem with the oil turning to mud over night. Strong recomened putting Mobil SYNTHETIC oil in the case (about an oz) so I cleaned out the gear box with karoseen and had no affect. The next thing they thought it could be was a bad bearing. So I took it all apart again and replace all of the bearing (4) I didn't do any thing with the shutter drive, cleand again with Karoseen and the problem was solved. When I looked at the bearings and held them in my hand and turned them there was 2 that would hang up alittle bit but they weren't seized any way that was 3 months ago and the oil is still nice and clear

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-01-2003, 08:29 AM:

Simplex oil is texaco capella 10 weight