Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Who makes "rock and roll" projectors?

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Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 06-02-2003, 06:17 PM:

We are beginning to be in the market for a "rock and roll" style reversing/high speed projector for our new mixing stage. I am aware (mostly by reading old threads on this board) of Kinotons, Sondors, and Magna-Techs. Are there any other makes I should be checking out? Anyone here have experience running/servicing these things? I know the units that have electronic movements can be quite a different beast...

Are such machines available second-hand? We'd rather not spend $70k if we dont have to, its not going to be used that much. Our previous facility had oridinary Simplex XLs fitted with biphase motors, but it would be nice to be able to wind back and watch a scene again.

Thanks

Posted by German Marin (Member # 918) on 06-02-2003, 06:41 PM:

Prevost has made a system called "retromarcia accellerata" (high speed reverse) using two projectors with 6000' reels and non operator, it is remote operated and not electronic. Also, It has an automatic framing and focus (remotly). If can go to the Prevost site.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-02-2003, 06:42 PM:

Simplexs are not that great for rock and roll
The best is the Kinoton or the magnatech
the magnatech doesn't have the steadiest image so most facilities install a fp20 for finished screenings useing the rock and roll machine for the dubbing
Also Peerfectone and Nova make high speed machines

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-02-2003, 07:02 PM:

Some links:

http://www.kinotonamerica.com/fp30ec.htm

http://www.colorlab.com/kinoton.html
(AFAIK, Steve Guttag did this install)

http://www.warwicksound.com/sale.htm

http://www.sondor.ch/news.html

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-02-2003, 07:37 PM:

We used a few Simplex XL's that could rock-n-roll in few of the screening rooms that I worked in Hollywood (Paramount the smaller rooms had XL's, the big rooms on the lot had DP70's,
Digital Domain and afew of the BelAir houses had RnR XL's . The projectors that I use now are the MagnaTech PR 135, which are the Kinoton FP20. They run very well [thumbsup]

Some of the main dubbing studios in this building also use the MagnaTech machines.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-02-2003, 07:49 PM:

Arri (the camera company) makes something that uses a rotating prism (like a Steembeck editing table) rather than a conventional shutter/intermittent. I have no idea if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look, anyway:

http://www.arri.com/prod/project/index2.htm

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-02-2003, 09:06 PM:

Nothing really comes close to the Kinoton FP 30/38EC II. It moves...300fps in either direction and is fully programmable and remotable.

I have some extensive experience with their lesser machine in the studio line...the FP-38E-S...it is not in the same league as the ECII but still is capable of reverse projection and shuttling. Please also note that the FP-30E-R also exists and will allow you to project forward and shuttle in reverse (up to 100 fps).

However, that said, the FP-30ECII really is in a class by itself. If you really want a studio projector that will even project a still frame, the ECII is your projector.

Kinoton also just has brought out the FP-30/38 EQ line of projectors...they are kinda a half-way house between the E-S series and the ECII series.

I consider the E-S really to be a cinema projector that has studio features. The EQ is more of a lab-review projector since it allows super slow projection as well as shuttle and the ECII is the studio projector that has all of the bells and whistles. I'd suspect it is the most approriate projector for you if you want to set up to see a sequence over and over or want a projector that will track time-code.

Steve

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-02-2003, 09:35 PM:

The Arriflex unit is very convenient but the image quality I feel is not up to par based on a couple of situations with the unit. The Prevost unit is more for conventional cinema two machine use where the off line projector is reversing at a 50% higher reverse rate through the intermittent while the other machine is on the screen.......at least with Kinoton you have a choice of good, better, best [Wink]

...and Herr Guttag did a great pitch. [thumbsup]

Richard Fowler
Kinoton America Inc.

Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 06-02-2003, 10:59 PM:

Yes, we have been drooling over the kinoton fp30-ecII for quite a while now, and if money were no object I would not hesitate to order one tomorrow. Unfortuneately, film is going to be our secondary picture format behind dlp. I know, I know, there is no substitute for mixing to an actual print, both in terms of sync assurances and picture quality, but once your clients have been to a mix with instant-cueing picture even shuttling back and forth at 300fps seems slow. [Roll Eyes]

That is why we had the split system at our previous location. The mix would be done to picture on a digital video server, then when everything was done I'd thread up a reel and we would watch it just to be sure. The difference in picture quality really was astounding when you put one right after the other like that, but I digress...

The single most annoying part of that system was that there was no way to stop mid-reel, go back and check something, and then continue. If you lost concentration or wanted to see something again, you had to wait for the rest of the reel to play, shut down, rewind, re-thread and wait for it to come around again. Threading up half way through a reel was not an option because the only sync reference we had was the 2-pop at the head of the reel. Quite a pain in the butt.

My only concern with an electronic-drive projector (besides cost) is image stability, because we also hope to use the theatre for trade screenings, dailies, and such. I understand the kinotons are the equal of a mechanical projector in this respect, but I tend to wonder about some of the other machines, especially the Sondor which seem to use the same prism thing (I dont quite understand how that works) as the Arri unit. btw is Sondor the same as Nova?

I seem to remeber someone here saying they were RnRing with a pair of E-7s, which have a very steady image and are cheap!

Thanks

Posted by Howard Johnson (Member # 62) on 06-03-2003, 04:58 AM:

How about a FEDI ? There was one installed at Twickenham Studios in the main dubbing theatre and it worked very well , after you had laced up the picture reel and the sound reels on the playback units you could sit down and read the paper while the dubbing mixer ran the reel backwards and forwards to his heart's content! This was made in Milan I think, I don't know if they are still in business . I don't know if any found their way across the Atlantic.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-03-2003, 08:49 AM:

Actually, the Kinoton E series of projectors have a steadier image than most mechanicals and is tunable, via a laptop.

All of the studio projectors provide a pulse/tach output to drive external (dubbers and the like) devices...even the E-S series. However...when you move into the ECII...it can also be a slave to other devices and chase time-code.

If all you want/need to do is stop, back up, then run a sequence again, perhaps something closer to the E-S projector may suffice.

I'd give all of the models in the studio line (and even the E-R projector of the cinema line) a look-see.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-03-2003, 10:38 AM:

Steve wrote:

quote:

Nothing really comes close to the Kinoton FP 30/38EC II.

Just as a matter of interest, what do those things cost?

You'd better let me sit down before you answer that question!

Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 06-03-2003, 11:21 AM:

I have been told to expect to pay around US$70,000 for the top-end kinoton. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-03-2003, 12:49 PM:

The price varies...one has to select what features they want. It is not as simple as saying "let me have one of those."

With all of the bells and wistles...I can see it getting up and over the $70K mark...but then again, I could also see it being less than $70K with a lamphouse (High 50,000s low 60,000s).

Again, with this sort of machine...one really can't price it without knowing just what it needs to do. It isn't like the run of the mill movie theatre projector that basically comes in one flavor and the biggest question is turrets or single lens.

Steve

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 06-04-2003, 02:57 PM:

I might add that both the ECII and EQ have Sony 9-pin control interfaces with multiple settings in software so they will easily follow and chase-to-match most anything.

The ECII also has a front panel switch to change between 4- and 3-perf pulldown. Lately 3-perf is getting quite popular.

Also, anyone who needs this sort of machine to be operational 24/365 should think very carefully about parts and tech support. KA keeps a large supply of EC parts, and has techs, on each US coast. I've heard some tales that suggest others may not.

Steve is correct about the pricing (High 50,000s low 60,000s) for a "well equipped" (but not with every single option) ECII.

Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 06-04-2003, 04:59 PM:

So, other than wind speed, what does the EQ not do that the ECII does?

Ultimately the decision is whether we want to be able to mix directly to film (my preference) or just screen reels once they're done (bean counter's preference.) The former requires timecode, rs-422 machine control, and lock to house sync, while the latter only requires a head that goes backwards at 2 or 3x and spits out biphase. Unfortunately the bean counter gets a bigger say than I do. Worst case scenario we will end up with the Simplex setup again, since we still have 6 of the things sitting around, but I have pretty much convinced them of the benefit of at least a basic reversing system.

At this point my hope is to sell the Simplexes and put that money towards a single more useful machine.

Thanks

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 06-04-2003, 07:38 PM:

Matt,
The biggest differences are wind speed (300 vs. 100fps) and acceleration. The ECII also has a much nicer, more versatile LED dot matrix display with available full remotes, the ability to run cores directly or switch to 5/16th" reels, and a truly superior variable tension gate/trap system and computer controlled film tension system that allows astoundingly long R+R mix sessions without film damage.

They both can project 0-48 fps and have 3/2/1 blade shutters.

The short story is the ECII, which we term our "Dubbing Projector", is just that. If one is not using the projector for dubbing, or similar high speed activities like some film vs. video comparison work, the EQ "Quality Check Projector" will probably do nicely. That said, the ECII is clearly the "top of the line" machine that is used by every major studio. While the EQ is a great machine which does nearly everything the ECII does (and actually offers a few things the EC can't, like an optional turret), some buy the ECII so as not to be thought as having "2nd best".

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-19-2003, 03:06 AM:

Howard, FEDI dissapeared quite some time ago. I service one in the Lake district, and I think there's another couple down south somewhere, but that's about it. There were a pair running here in Scotland until about 4 years ago, but they've been replaced with Century now.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 06-19-2003, 04:47 AM:

The old Philips FP20s were excellent for R & R , and the gate could be kept closed. There must be a surplus of these machines in the UK from all the closed down ABC cinemas.

There was a long playing Fedi projector installed at the Essoldo, Tunbridge Wells in Kent, which can now be seen running with a loop at The Projected Picture Trust, Bletchley Park. I sold the pair of Fedi's from the closed Jacey Cinema, Leicester Square, which were exported to Africa.