quote:

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We had yellow on the end of reel one...

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Yellow-colored fog is usually from accidental exposure of the unprocessed print film to white light, because the blue-sensitive (yellow dye forming) layer of print film is much faster than the red or green sensitive layers.
 

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Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-20-2003, 03:31 PM:
 
Brad, are you sure it's the discs? All our discs here are working. Are you sure it's not a print problem?

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2003, 05:41 PM:
 
Yes, I'm sure it is the discs. I tried copying the files to my hard drive and reel 6 would not copy.
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-20-2003, 06:05 PM:
 
I don't know what the lab did to our prints but the timecode lights on our readers are blinking like cheesy chistmas tree lights. I had to run both of our DTS houses in SR this afternoon because they were jumping in and out of DTS every 5 or 10 seconds.
 

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Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-20-2003, 07:02 PM:
 
All our discs are fine here but I'm getting calls on bad prints for this movie.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2003, 07:14 PM:
 
I think you mean "all but at least two of our discs are fine". If the file cannot be copied from the cdrom to a hard drive on a pc, then that HAS to be a disc issue. I just find it awfully odd that two sets would have the same disc issue on the same file. I'll bet there are more out there, which is why I put the alert up for people to check their dts.

I have replacement discs coming. We'll see if they work.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-20-2003, 07:27 PM:
 
Yah... that is strange. Ours are fine.

Are these things copied on several duplicators?
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-20-2003, 07:48 PM:
 
I find this whole thing about bad DTS disks and bad prints rather disturbing. DTS time code tracks are less susceptable to damage than SRD or SDDS because they don't come in contact with runner shoes, bands, or slides.

Karen, maybe it is time to do a little investigation in "who is screwing up" and get the good old quality control back into disk pressing and film reproduction. This crap about "getting it out on the streets and let's worry about making it work later" philosophy really indeed sucks the "Big One" and HAS TO BE STOPPED!!!!

I have noted quality control has been severely lacking on all products lately, and it is sickening! I am trying to be polite about this, but I am starting to get very angry about "film done wrong" and slip-shod cheap-assed quality control by film companies and disk pressers as well.


 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-20-2003, 08:16 PM:
 
Geez, Paul...

Just what are you trying to say?????
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2003, 08:24 PM:
 
If it makes you feel any better Paul, the SRD tracks on the Hulk prints play fine and dandy.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-20-2003, 08:32 PM:
 
some of the problem is in that damn technicolor lab. Bruce almighty, 2 fast 2 furious and now the hulk have had timecode issues to some degree. I think something could be out of calibration or something on those printers.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-20-2003, 09:07 PM:
 
I've been seeing a ton of "Problems with DTS" threads lately including this one. What's up with that? It seems like tons of people are having DTS problems for one reason or another. Quality control must be slipping somewhere. I haven't had the opportunity to use DTS in over two years so I can't say where. But from the sidelines it sure seems that using DTS is not as effortless and trouble free as it used to be.
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-20-2003, 09:37 PM:
 
The folks that develop these prints might think twice about their quality control standards if everyone requested replacement prints at no charge. I doubt it would go over very well but it's a thought.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-20-2003, 10:56 PM:
 
Out of calibration? I'm glad that we don't have those calibration specialists working in the medical field or the aircraft industry.

Brad, I am happy something worked.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-21-2003, 01:01 PM:
 
From what Brad described in not being able to copy the Reel 6 data off his CDs to the computer, I have a feeling it is the discs.

What optical disc pressing lab does DTS use to have its CDs made. Each disc has to have its own glass and stamper master made. If there is a problem there than the whole run of replicated CDs is toasted. Some people have commented their discs are working fine. So that would lead me to believe the CD replication chain has some quality control problems.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 06-21-2003, 01:37 PM:
 
Seeing as how the DTS track is right next to the optical sound, could it be sloppy sound track redeveloping? And by the way, DTS discs are pressed not copied (the ones that come with the films, that is). The discs are played from the inside out, so the last track on a disc not playing could be caused by a warp that, (of course) gets worse as you get toward the outside edge of the disc; or a balance problem, or a center hole that is rough, and does not fit on the spindle totaly flat.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-21-2003, 01:45 PM:
 
well, our discs played fine as far as all the reels worked. The problem is in that timecode when you see the reader led blinking off and on or staying off for over 4 seconds. Cd bits are burned in not pressed in.
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-21-2003, 02:36 PM:
 
Production DVDs are indeed pressed in from a glass master physically pressed on a plastic blank. DVD-R & DVD-RW disks are "burned" in - heat from a laser produces the data tracks directly.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-21-2003, 04:14 PM:
 
DTS disks are CD-ROMs, not DVDs.

CD-ROMs are indeed pressed, but not on plastic...the data area is made of very thin aluminum, sandwiched between two layers of plastic. (look at a CD from the edge and you can often see the layers.
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-21-2003, 04:51 PM:
 
OK, I said DVD instead of CD... same story. Either a plastic disk is pressed with a glass master or the polycarbonate is injection molded using the master "stamper" disk in the mold. The reflective coating on a CD (or the bottom layer of a DVD) is vacuum deposited after stamping.
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 06-21-2003, 05:16 PM:
 
I'm supposed to be off this weekend after working two weeks with one day off, and wouldn't you know it, I'm getting reports of DTS dropout on the Hulk prints!

We ran the discs through our computer (per Brad's instructions) and they showed NO ERRORS. Our equipment is fine, and I'm sick and tired of people suggesting that "it may be your equipment." I can tell you, it's NOT!!!

This is a lab problem. We have had it with other prints in the past several months. You can't tell me it's a problem with my equipment when one print plays fine and the next one drops out all over the place. I'm talking about the recent releases of Bruce Almighty and The Hulk.

Somebody better start tracking down the problem, and fast! I'm sick and damed tired of spending my time replacing faulty reels. I have been a previous supporter of DTS and Karen has been most helpful in troubleshooting problems in the past. That said, I don't know how much longer my theatre is going to put up with the problems we have had recently. It's not the discs, it's not the equipment, IT'S THE DAMNED PRINTS!!!!

Question: Why don't I hear complaints about Dolby digital and bad reels?????

Rant over.
 

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Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 06-21-2003, 07:20 PM:
 
Here here! This problem is definitely the timecode. We screened it Thursday night and everything was perfect until the start of reel 2. Dropout all over the place. So I run upstairs and check: the timecode light on the player and reader is flashing. Funny, we had the same problem with Bruce Almighty as well. This is getting VERY annoying for us because most of our houses are DTS. It just has to be a problem with the lab. Funny, both releases are Universal, so I suppose this isolates it somewhat.

AJG
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-21-2003, 08:01 PM:
 
I got in two more sets of Hulk discs today. This means that #1 and 2 had a bad reel 6 file that came with the print. Now I put in #3 and guess what...it had a bad reel 6 file too! Thankfully disc #4 was good, so I now have the files so that I can burn a second set of discs.

Still, this is not an acceptable resolution for the dts format. Someone needs to give a nice big slap to whoever is pressing these discs and whoever is responsible for the misaligned printer at the lab. If this continues, dts will be a dead format real soon.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-21-2003, 09:17 PM:
 
I haven't read through this entire thread, so I might have missed something. But I remember when DTS was first rolled out, one of the major advantages they were touting was how robust the DTS timecode printed on film is. The "dots" are huge and very impervious to damage from routine handling. But if the lab can't print the timecode accurately in the first place, fat lot of good that "robust" timecode does you. (The Hulk show I saw today was in the dreaded SDDS, and it tracked perfectly.)
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-21-2003, 09:31 PM:
 
David said"han But if the lab can't print the timecode accurately in the first place, fat lot of good that "robust" timecode does you."
That is not the norm considering the vast number of prints struck and disks pressed for a "niche market industry" the track record is still quite good (not for the one who recieves the rejects)
after adjusting the reader Hulk screened at 2 locations here with no problems
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-21-2003, 10:13 PM:
 
But DTS does not like you tampering with the reader.

Consider this: The new DTS XD10 Turbo or whatever the hell the thing is supposed to be called will run off of the SAME TIMECODE. If DTS cannot fix this error fast and permanently, then that format will be dead before it even rolls out the door.

Maybe you don't hear complaints about Dolby Digital as much because maybe Dolby has their act together? Using the Film-Tech search function, I searched for "DTS" threads (subject only). I came up with over 16 different threads of based on DTS problems alone. I put in "Dolby" in the search field next and came up with maybe 2. That says something about reliability.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-21-2003, 10:15 PM:
 
Wouldn't a timecode problem manifest itself across all prints? Ours is tracking perfectly. We did have that blip last week, but it went away after we reversed our disks.

DTS may have a problem in the duplication process that would certainly need fixing... but otherwise, it seems some of these comments are a little on the harsh side. Other than that one blip, my 6D has performed flawlessly.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-21-2003, 11:35 PM:
 
Our "Hulk" is fine too. (well, the print and disks are. Not so sure about the movie yet.)
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-22-2003, 12:05 AM:
 
I recieved my replacement discs for one print and discs for a print that I didn't get discs for in the first place.

Both sets of discs work fine, but I have one reel four that blinks like a turn signal. Luckily it only goes out for three seconds, comes back on briefly and then goes back out.

There's no reason I should have to adjust the reader. I don't adjust the analog sound head on a per print basis. Nor do I have to adjust my Dolby Digital readers.

quote:

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Wouldn't a timecode problem manifest itself across all prints?

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It could be a problem with only one or two negatives and not all of them.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 12:15 AM:
 
I ran The Hulk today....the DTS disks and print were OK. The movie is a dog.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-22-2003, 01:09 AM:
 
How many prints were made of this movie? Could this be the result of way too many prints resulting in a rush job at the labs? We all know that when this happens the labs botch many many prints (awaiting a link from John Pytlak since the word "labs" is in my post ).
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-22-2003, 07:16 AM:
 
I looked at two sets of discs in one location today and they were fine - at least according to the file copy test. However, the test is not very conclusive as different drives are mechanically and electronically more efficient in coping with bad CDs.
It would be best to have a computer with the "original" TEAC 32x drives (I wouldn`t be too surprised if Brad actually has them in his PC). Some CD-ROM drives can be made to give an error warning (C2) when they encounter problems. You also need a program which can actually request and display the C2 error messages (I have one, but it is only available in German, hahaha).

Anyway, we had badly flashing timecode in some of the reels too, indicating the print problem.
The prints are under observation, but since (I am told) the movie sucks enormously, we won`t have most of them for very long...
 

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Posted by Tim Turner (Member # 1109) on 06-22-2003, 01:08 PM:
 
Luckily where I am, we'll be playing The Hulk in Dolby Digital for at least several more weeks. But DTS is usually very quick to replace DTS CDs when they know of problems.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-22-2003, 01:46 PM:
 
Why can't a reader be designed to self-adjust (within limits) and optimize its alignment for each print?
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-22-2003, 05:28 PM:
 
I'm scared for DTS.

Recently i was talking sound formats with some co-workers. One of them said something like "wouldnt it be nice if we had dolby on every screen?"
I love the DTS format. It absolutely blows the shorts of any other digital format I have heared. I would hate to see such a great format vanish becuaseof bad prints, disks, and analog processors that dont get along well with DTS (AHEM USL JS-200).

Out of all the formatts you'd think this one would be the most reliable.
How hard is it to print what is basicly a bar-code onto film? I think it should be much easier than printing complex digital data between sprokets. But that is clearly not the case.

Everyone at DTS should be alarmed with the number of bad prints being made.

Hmmm... this makes me wonder... I'm starting a new topic with another DTS related question.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-22-2003, 07:01 PM:
 

quote:

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Out of all the formats you'd think this one would be the most reliable.

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quote:

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How hard is it to print what is basicly a bar-code onto film?

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quote:

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I think it should be much easier than printing complex digital data between sprokets. But that is clearly not the case.

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Perhaps the method of printing it could be improved? I do not know how this is done or how they get the timecode onto a dupe master, but maybe they way they do things could be improved. I admit, I am at a loss to figure out how the timecode could be misprinted.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-22-2003, 07:22 PM:
 
Joe & Mike and everyone else, just adjust the reader to work with each print and quit whining.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2003, 08:32 PM:
 
All three digital tracks and the optical track are on one single negative recorded usually at once in the same camera usually a nuoptic modified westrex
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 08:51 PM:
 
David, I agree. But when you have a bunch of no-brainers running the equipment, equipping them with a screwdiver is a complete disaster. That seems to be "Par" in today's projection booths.
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-22-2003, 09:27 PM:
 
Paul, I was kidding. I can't imagine most booths allowing everyone to run around with screwdrivers making adjustments to digital readers. A recipe for disaster, and shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

I still don't understand why a reader couldn't be designed that automatically optimizes its alignment to each print (within limits). If $50 VCRs can have digital auto-tracking, why can't megabuck cinema digital sound readers accommodate minor printing variations better? Yes I realize they're not the same from an implementation standpoint, but the concept is the same and certainly technologically doable.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-22-2003, 11:51 PM:
 
Dave, asks: "Why can't a reader be designed to self-adjust (within limits) and optimize its alignment for each print?"
I think the answers are:

#1: Doing so would add additional complexity. Part of the beauty of the DTS reader is its simplicity, and it is really very simple. Simple means reliable, and reliability is critical to this industry.

#2: It should never be necessary. Prints with timecode in the wrong place should happen so rarely that it should basically be a "can't happen" scenario.

#3: At this point, designing and deploying a new reader would take serious effort, and would significantly complicated the DTS product line. I am prettty skeptical it is worth the effort. Time to market would be significant, too. I don't think it was a problem at the get-go.

(By the way, the timecode reader is not a megabuck reader. Part of DTS's advantage is how cheap it is, compared to the other digital systems. Timecode reader sells for USD$500.)

It certainly appears that the "can't happen" scenario is happening, though. It's hard to say why, and anecdotal evidence can be a dangerous thing (but also a valuable tool -- double edged sword).

Not everyone who has suggested they're seeing these problems in this thread has explicitly indicated that they are seeing a flashing light on the timecode reader -- that is a critical symptom that needs to be seen for the problem to be either in the timecode reader or on the print.

It's also possible that we're seeing a misaligned timecode reader (?) or a gain issue, perhaps due to aging LEDs or dirt, etc. I'm sure Karen will provide information on checking those things.

If there's really any significant incidence of misprinted timecode on release prints, then obviously the bad reels need to be checked out and some investigation done in terms of lab QC. Presumably Karen is all over this and will followup with TES (TDC/TRPM as appropriate)...

Could people who post further problems clarify whether they are seeing flashing timecode reader lights, and how frequently, and whether the problem has been seen with multiple prints on said reader?

I have a technical question, if anyone has the answers; what's the width of the timecode reader aperture on the DTS timecode reader, how much misalignment is acceptable, and is there any filtering to allow it to read timecode if the aperture is also picking up the soundtrack or the image?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-23-2003, 06:18 AM:
 
I have a question too: How much RAM has the dts reader?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-23-2003, 07:02 AM:
 
As Gordon notes, all of the soundtracks (analog, Dolby Digital, SDDS and DTS) are recorded on the SAME sound negative. So if the printer is misadjusted for lateral guiding, ALL the tracks will be mispositioned. Theoretically, one track could be mispositioned if the sound negative were recorded improperly.

Again, SMPTE Recommended Practice RP115 specifies "Photographic Control and Data Record on 35-mm Motion-Picture Release Prints". The centerline should be 0.297 inches (7.54mm) from the reference edge of the print. Examination of the affected reels should show whether or not the lateral position is incorrect, or if something else is interfering with the DTS timecode.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-23-2003, 10:13 AM:
 
When DTS introduced the readers with the sticker over the lateral adjustment screw it had a slightly wider slit in it
The best solution would have been for the original BACP SRD penthouse reader to have incoropated the DTS pickup as originally planned but it seems politics between to companies stopped that one
 

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Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-23-2003, 11:02 AM:
 
Paul, I can assure you that the discs here are fine and we have just ceased using the slim poly cases that were damaging the discs. I cannot guarantee you that each and every disc is fine. There may be a few discs with pressing errors (yes, the production discs are pressed). If anyone has a disc that won't play, all you need do is call us or the film distributor and request replacement discs.

We are working with the labs in improving their quality control of DTS timecode printing. Because of high volume printing, there are always going be a few prints that are bad off the production line.

Aligning the reader is done at the factory and those readers with a "do not adjust" sticker should not need the lateral adjustment touched. This alignment centers the lens on timecode track and looks at the width or our "legal" printing area.

NEVER EVER ADJUST THE LENS !!!!

Adjusting the reader's gain is very easy and there is a technical notice on that. I've been discussing reader gain adjustment in the last two TechTalks. TechTalks come out quarterly and if anyone wants to get on the mailing list, send me an email. I also post them in our free online techcenter. Look under "technical updates".

Lastly, just because a disc won't copy (you're not supposed to do that BTW) onto your PC does not necessarily mean that the disc is bad.

Joe - I've looked over the last month's DTS threads and see that although some are concerning problems, others are simply questions. I don't see how that means DTS does not have "their act together". I think it means that people see that I'm around to help.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com

[ 06-23-2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Karen Hultgren ]
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2003, 03:20 PM:
 

quote:

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Lastly, just because a disc won't copy (you're not supposed to do that BTW) onto your PC does not necessarily mean that the disc is bad.

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Funny how that coincidence works. Every time I have ever had a disc-based dropout (not a print/timecode issue) on a showing I can put the disc into the PC and try to copy the files. Every and I do mean EVERY single time it stalls on the reel that dropped out. Maybe you were referring to cheap PC cdrom drives and not ones of quality???

Besides, nowadays we intentionally dupe the discs to delete the stupid trailer files from them. Don't like it? Stop putting the trailer files on the feature discs or give the players a means to not self-pulse into digital until the automation tells it to (like Dolby provides). Copying those discs are not hurting anyone. When the run is over, they go into the trash. In the meanwhile, the originals are safely packed away in their cases, protected from handling damage. Shame on us indeed for what is effectively protecting the originals. In fact, I'll bet the industry loses billions of dollars just from our dts dupes that the trash men pick out of the trash and sell on Ebay. We should be lined up and shot.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-23-2003, 05:51 PM:
 
Karen,

Ok, we are not supposed to copy DTS cds. But DTS cds are just ISO CD and if a PC cannot read one of them I cannot see how a DTS unit, that IS a PC, can do it!

Sometimes a different brand of CD can read cds that other cannot, ok. But it's not so common...

More, we are not talking about CD-R cds but originals cds.

I would say that if a PC cannot copy a DTS cd the cd probably is defective, do you agree?

Unfortunately I do not have a DTS player at the plex I'm working now but over my last 4 year experience with a DTS6 I never encountered a defective cd.

Bye
Antonio
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2003, 08:53 PM:
 
And, of course, if interlocking is being used, do you expect us to use only one DTS unit and run the remaining umpteen houses in analog even though they are equipped with DTS?

Bah! I don't think so.

With today's "dogbusters," the movie would probably expire before extra disks were sent for interlocking purposes. I would do the same as Brad and a couple of thousand people just like him that want the best quality sound possble. And that is, fire up the 'ole CD burner and make a copy or two, then toss them in the trash when they have served their purpose.

Antonio, I have. But in defense of DTS, I never had a bad preview disk. I think DTS is doing their best in their house. But the film companies are really screwing it up for us as well as DTS with their crappy quality control in printing and disk pressing. I don't think the film companies really give a rat's ass anyway. They probably hire a bunch of minimum wage dudes to save money at the expense of quality. They are just too greedy.

I think National Film Service did that also. Many times I went to the film exchange, and seen a bunch of no-brainers that could not hold an intelligient conversation because they could not speak english. While watching them, they didn't know the difference between heads and tails of a reel. To them, it was nothing more than a hunk of tape about 2,000 feet long and 1.378 inches wide.
 

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Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 06-23-2003, 10:05 PM:
 
Well since this thread started I have been keeping a close eye on our DTS print of the Hulk and have hd no problems at all. However, one of the other theatres our tech services told me that they were having problems with reels 1 and 3 dropping out. Had replacement reels shipped and the problem disappeared. Seems there may be multiple problems with QA in more than one respect to the movie.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-23-2003, 11:13 PM:
 
Paul wrote:

quote:

---

But the film companies are really screwing it up for us as well as DTS with their crappy quality control in printing and disk pressing. I don't think the film companies really give a rat's ass anyway. They probably hire a bunch of minimum wage dudes to save money at the expense of quality.

---

Considering that a 6000-print release represents about 60 million feet of film being printed and processed, often with the cut negative being delivered to the lab about a week before those prints have to be in theatres, I personally feel the labs are doing a very good job under the circumstances. Yes, happens sometimes. But on average, very few reels need to be replaced.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-23-2003, 11:36 PM:
 
But yet, John...the SRD and analog sound tracks seem to run just fine.....what is going wrong with DTS's time code track? It doesn't seem to, shall I say, "Track"?

Cow Hum? I am looking for answers as to why....
 

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Posted by Kevin Raisler (Member # 1761) on 06-24-2003, 12:20 AM:
 
I had to have Reel 8 replaced... the SR and Digital sound tracks were completely washed out in some areas...
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-24-2003, 03:35 AM:
 

quote:

---

give the players a means to not self-pulse into digital until the automation tells it to

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I understand you have a DFP-D3000? Then you can install the dts-6D to AUX1 or AUX2 and configure the automation so that dts doesn`t pulse itself on and off when it wants to.
You can select it from your automation whenever you want then.

I think people should BE SUPPOSED to copy the discs when they need them. I know, I know, the copyright issue with a disc that you can`t use otherwise anyway, but given the fact that some cinemas do not receive the CDs, dts should be happy about the people who take the initiative to copy the CDs rather than letting the player sit unused on the rack.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 03:51 AM:
 
Michael, I use the DFP-3000 as a playback source for SDDS prints and also as a convenient way to input other sources into the system (like a 6 channel DVD signal or a mag dubber), since my main magnetic inputs are tied up with the 35/70mm MPU. That is only in the screening room though. There are no other DFP-3000 systems running around town that I am responsible for. They are only at AMC theaters and a couple of select UA theaters and both chains have their own techs to maintain them.

As a testament to how reliable the dts system is *provided you have good discs and a good print*, I used to snip off pin 25 from the automation cable. This pin was the pulse to digital control from the dts6-d player. At the feature, the automation would pulse into digital/external and then if the dts should fail during the show, it would still resort to SR. I say this is a testament to the dts system's reliability, because it always worked without a glitch. You could also look at the processor at the end of a show and if it was still in digital/external (which it always was), then you knew there was no way it dropped out during the show. Unfortunately over the last couple of years I had to abandon that trick in favor of burning cds without the trailer files on them because of the disc issues. Now the systems are back to "auto-digital", and there are just no trailer files for the system to find, so all is well again.

I welcome someone to come into a theater and tell me I cannot copy the discs for use with interlocking or as insurance to protect the originals, etc. That person needs a good slap in the face. There is nothing illegal going on that any judge with half a brain cell would find guilty. Someone would have to profit in some way, and that's just not happening. The discs are trashed at the end of the engagement. The whole argument is just stupid.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-24-2003, 03:58 AM:
 
I did that too in some cases where the dts-6D was installed to a CP500. Then I configured dts to pulse on SK2 where I cunningly placed Dolby Digital. So in the rare cases when it dropped out, the show would continue in Dolby Digital.
The reason I did that was not to battle loud trailers - German trailers almost never have dts unless attached to the dts feature. Rather, because the dts and DD kicking in at the same time sometimes caused the CP500 to mute (we discussed that a few months ago).
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-24-2003, 04:08 AM:
 
I hope this question wasn't already adressed as I would feel quite silly but what exactly is the problem with the trailers playing in DTS? I mean, wouldn't you want them to play in Digital if they can? I know I haven't seen a new DTS Trailer disk at my theatre in ages so having the trailer tracks on the feature disks is kinda nice.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 04:14 AM:
 
Greg, you'll have to search the archives for discussions on this. Playing the already-too-loud trailers in SR isn't such an audible assault to the audience as playing them in digital. If the trailers are too loud/powerful/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to the audience, they generally complain to turn it down. Most theaters don't have a way to automate the fader, and as such then the features are REALLY played low. An extra added benefit is when the feature begins and the lights dim, the sound "kicks in" so to say and has more of an effect. This is also why I (and many others) play trailers with left, center, right without surrounds or subs.

Since people come to see the feature and the previews are just extra, many people (myself included) find it ridiculous to let the trailer program adversely affect the feature presentation. Digital is not always better.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-24-2003, 04:14 AM:
 
Very often the digital trailers are mixed badly and brutally loud. The idea seems to be "our trailer will get the most attention if it is the loudest".
The DFP-D3000 has a fader memory function for trailers. When you enable it, the DFP will remember the settings you last chose for each trailer. You can also transfer these settings to other units. So you can manually tame the trailers the first time you play your new reel and then it will play it back that way.
Other than that, you can only fight loud trailers by playing them at a lower level - if your automation lets you control the fader - or play them in SR.
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-24-2003, 04:22 AM:
 
Thanks Brad, that's an excellent point. It'd save me a ton of time having to run around the booth every time a customer complains to an usher that the volume is too loud. It absolutly drives me nuts.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 04:25 AM:
 
What kind of sound processors and automation do you have? There are a lot of super easy tricks to get around that issue with many common processors.
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-24-2003, 04:32 AM:
 
I'm sure there are. We are running CP-500's with Component Engineering TA-10 Automation Systems and FM-35 Cue Detectors.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 04:40 AM:
 
SUPER easy with a CP500. Tell me which soft key is activated when the douser opens and which soft key is activated when the feature begins and the lights dim fully and I can tell you how to easily do this.
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-24-2003, 04:44 AM:
 
seeing as this is getting a little off topic, shall we take this to the chatroom?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-24-2003, 06:53 AM:
 
If you feel some trailers are still mixed too loud, you should contact someone on the TASA Committee or NATO with details of the offending trailers:

http://www.thx.com/mod/services/tasa.html

http://www.dolby.com/press/wb.pr.0101.AMPAS.html

http://www.boxoff.com/issues/feb01/tasa.html
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-24-2003, 09:45 AM:
 
Greg Cineplex Odeon has a standard wireing procedure for their TA10's and they would probably not appreciate it being modified
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-24-2003, 11:11 AM:
 
Am I alone in not noticing any "too-loud digital trailers" for quite a while?
 

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Posted by R. Andrew Diercks (Member # 1725) on 06-24-2003, 11:15 AM:
 
Thank you for mentioning the DTS issue. Now I am running Hulk in a Dolby Digital but Friday it will move to DTS.

Andy Diercks-Manager
Cinema 5
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-24-2003, 11:27 AM:
 
David wrote:

quote:

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Am I alone in not noticing any "too-loud digital trailers" for quite a while?

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Thanks. The industry TASA Team was initiated by the Inter-Society Committee for the Enhancement of Cinema Presentation, with significant support from NATO, MPAA, THX, and Dolby. I am the current President of the Inter-Society.

As I noted, report any specific trailers you believe to be excessively loud to TASA, with details of when and where you heard them. They continue to examine the levels allowed by the TASA recommendation to see if a further reduction is needed.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 12:39 PM:
 
Gordon, Greg shouldn't have to touch any wiring with a CP500 to do what he needs.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-24-2003, 12:52 PM:
 
Again greg should check with his service engineer before attempting any changes to equipment setup or procedures
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 01:42 PM:
 
John, I think people got tired of complaining about the trailer level and have just put up with it or taken it upon themselves to use automations with fader control or set up outboard rigs to do the job. Unfortunately I do see people still running the trailers at a nice level, then the features are too quiet to have the impact the sound mixers worked so hard on. I think the trailers still need to be turned down another 5db. Therein lies the problem though, not everyone will ever agree completely.

It is better now, but still not enough. The trailers should not be noticeably louder than the feature.

(Please open up a new thread or resurrect an older one for further discussion on the trailer level discussion. We are getting way too off topic here.)
 

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Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-24-2003, 02:09 PM:
 
Gordon, I always run everything by our technicians before I make any changes to anything. That's always been my policy. I appreciate your concern though. So Rick, if you're following this thread you can relax.
 

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