Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Theatre in upstate NY wants to revive booth

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-20-2003, 02:14 AM:

The message below was posted in Usenet in alt.movies.silent
I've got no connection with the theater, & my guess would be that their budget will be along the lines of most small PAC's: minuscule. Fun for folks who like fun, though.

Original message follows:
==============================

Subject: PT: Need advice on getting old movie theater projectors working
From: hudson10isme < hudson10isme@cs.comwhoha >
Organisation : CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/)

I am on a committee which is attempting to arrange some movie screenings at a beautiful old theater in Tarrytown, New York. For more information on thetheater see its web site:
http://www.tarrytownmusichall.org/

It was a movie theater until the 1970s. The old projectors are still in the theater. We are attempting to find out if they can be made usable. One of our members has posted many detailed photos of the projectors on the internet here:
http://homepage.mac.com/ttownorso/PhotoAlbum11.html

Could those of you with knowledge of this please provide any information,advice, resources, or opinions on the possibility of making the projectors usable again.

If you prefer email to posting, delete the what follows the .com at the end of my email address. TIA. Hudson10
To respond via email delete what follows the .com

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2003, 02:54 AM:

Whoever designed that interface for the second link at the mac dot com address needs to be brutally beaten. Just try and look at it on a dual monitor system. Just TRY!

Morons.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 06-20-2003, 03:22 AM:

Well, -Morons or not: It's quite a house [Smile]

Posted by Greg Routenburg (Member # 1742) on 06-20-2003, 03:23 AM:

Being extremely green at this still, I'm assuming that's what's called a "Carbon Arc" lamp house on that monster? That looks like it would be alot of fun to play around with. It might make for a cool road trip once they get it up and running. Oh, and please humour me, I appologize again for my ignorance but would the age of the sound equipment that would be on that projector be a problem when trying to play more modern films?

I'm not quite sure to what you were referring with respect to the dual monitor remark Brad, I didn't have any problems with it. I kinda liked that little slide show interface. Saved alot of mouse clicks. Oh well, to each their own I guess.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-20-2003, 04:27 AM:

The page wont even load for me [Confused]

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-20-2003, 08:08 AM:

Same here, I just get a blank quicktime-ish frame...
I shouldn't expect "mac.com" to be compatible with real computers.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-20-2003, 08:31 AM:

Loads ok for me. (Windows 2k SP2, IE6 pictures open in Apple Quicktime)

I replied on R.A.M.T before I read this post here, apart from a new motor in one of the pictures, and the Ashcraft rectifier, this place is in pretty much its original state, and not at all bad condition. Even if it is not used it ought to be preserved as a complete example of a box of this period.

The sound would be more of a problem than the picture, the photocells are probably past their best, and, obviously, you will only ever get Academy mono out of it. Maybe they could install a modern analogue SR rack, but leave the original in place, and maybe even give occasional demonstrations of the original equipment, run 1930s films on apprpriate period equipment! They seem to have a fair number of spare valves (tubes). The original heads would read dye+silver tracks ok, but not cyan.

Mr Norwood is still running Western bases and Enarcs at one of his places, isn't he? When I met him in April he was talking about the possibility of installing stereo cells in the Western base.

If this place is only going to do an occasional film show I don't see why they shouldn't use the original machines, unless there is some really major fault with them which doesn't show up in the photographs. They could run programmes of classic films on classic equipment.

It was working elier, but I've just gone back for another look at the pictures, and I can't get them now [Frown]

[ 06-20-2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 06-20-2003, 10:00 AM:

The photo link does not work for me. All I get is a "connecting to 17.250.248.34" then it times out and nothing. [Frown]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-20-2003, 12:24 PM:

It looks suspiciously like the booth that I will run tonight (see the pics of the Avon Cinema, which has basically the same equipment, save for Century heads instead of Simplex and Brenkert rectifiers instead of Ashcrafts). I don't know anything about the original Western Electric sound system, however, as the Avon stopped using the original system in the '80s (I assume that the box on the wall with the needle that points to two scales numbered 1-15 is for sound changeover purposes). I still haven't found anyone who has managed to fit a stereo solar cell into those bases. The motor shown in one of the pics is definitely not original, as Stephen pointed out.

In general, though, the equipment looks like it could be serviceable with a bit of volunteer effort and maybe some minor sound upgrades (probably add a modern preamp and amp), particularly if they only need it for occasional screenings. If I lived closer, I'd definitely stop by and see the place.

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-20-2003, 01:52 PM:

If you want it identified here goes; OLD Simplex projectors originally front shutters but modified with rear shutter bracket. Brenkert Enarc lamp, good; Western Electric 2su 41 sound system[ 2sx 41 if it has a 43 power amplifier. Western Electric 1a [universal base] Amplifiers should be 49 film amplifiers in universal base and amp rack should contain WE 200 horn panel, 41 voltage amp with gain control a 42 amplifier either used as a final or driving a 43 power amplifier. Sure too bad Im on the other coast. Sure would be intwerested in this.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-20-2003, 02:36 PM:

What you have is a very sought after Western Electric Booth in its entirety. This equipment, especially the amplifiers and speakers are collected by audio enthusiests around the world. I wouldn't operate that booth as a money making venture(and for safety reasons) as the reliability factor is not going to be there. Also parts are non-existant.

What you can do is to sell that equipment to an appropriate collector and E-Bay would be a good place to start trying to sell it off. Set a VERY HIG RESERVE on it all!!! I've head of the amp racks alone going for well over 10K, and the stage speakers and booth monitor speaker netting another 5K at least! The projectors are typically worth quite a bit less less. It is all but impossible to find these booths complete, untouched and in this (probably working) condition anylonger. The total number of booths in this state of preservation can be counted on one hand......

With Western Electric equipment selling for what it does on todays market, you would then have a large chunk of money to install decent, used, modern equipment that will be reliable and not nickle and dime you to death.

If you'd like names and numbers of people that deal in this sort of collectible stuff give me a call and I will be happy to give you names and numbers. The main thing is to not be rushed and hold out for the highest offer!!!!

Also, if the original Turn Tables are still in the theatre that went on the back ends of the projectors then you have another gold mine in and of itself..... Can't find em...look in the attic, in the basement, look everyplace till you are absolutely sure they are NOT there [thumbsup]

.

Mark @ CLACO
Salt Lake City, Utah
801-355-1250

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-20-2003, 03:05 PM:

The Mac link finally is opening on my laptop, so I just looked at the photos. WOW!!! It's almost as though someone walked out of that booth 50 years ago, and it was put into suspended animation and preserved perfectly. I'd go either way --- keep it exactly as is, as a "museum" of theatre exhibition of that era. Or sell it to a loving collector and use the proceeds upgrade the theatre to newer equipment.

Posted by Andrew Duggan (Member # 1302) on 06-20-2003, 03:08 PM:

Crap, that looks awesome. Hopefully I'll be able to get down there at some point and see it firsthand.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-20-2003, 04:35 PM:

I would be against selling off the equipment; what is so unusual about this place is not just a couple of old projectors, there are a fair number of those around, but that a complete installation has survived, largely unaltered, from the day it went in. If the equipment was disposed of there would be a couple of projectors preserved somewhere, an amplifier rack somewhere else, and none of it in its proper setting, an original projection room of this period. Even the colour of the paint on the walls is right, I don't know why, but projection rooms always seemed to be this sort of colour.

I think it would be possible to run this equipment for occasional shows, I assume that this place is not intending to run film all day, every day.

The last machines of this vintage I know of in this country were taken out of use just a few years ago, if they are in good condition there is no reason why they shouldn't run. If they were taken out of use in the '70s, then they probably only have about 40 years of use on them; there are plenty of 50 year old machines running today, often as a single machine with a tower for 30 years or so, therefore running twice as many hours per day. The design of projector mechs has actually not changed a great deal in the last 75 years, unless you are looking at something with an electronic intermittant, like a Kinoton FP-30E.

The relatively small carbons which these arcs use are still available new, they are not cheap, but not very many would be used, and it is quite likely that some could be picked up cheaply from, or even donated by, a theatre that no longer uses them. There are old projector heads around from which spares could be obtained, if needed.

The new motor would look much less obvious with a coat of black paint.

Certain concessions would have to be made to the modern age. I can't claim to be an expert on, or indeed know anything about, American electrical regulations, but I doubt that this place would meet the requirements, it might even be unsafe now, so a full re-wire would be needed, but the modern wiring could be contained within the original trunking and conduit, so it would look no different.

It would be worth investing in some good modern lenses, but the old ones could be kept for show, the new ones put in for use.

You would probably want to install a new sound rack, but the original one could be retained as well. I don't think any of the original equipment should be removed.

The Ashcraft rectifiers are not original, probably '50s, but they don't look too out of place.

This is a great, and probably unrepeatable opportunity to preserve an original projection room of the period, with nearly all of its original equipment, neither modified for more modern use, nor exposed to damage by vandals, rain, bird droppings etc. which often happens at disused places. It would be a great shame to let it go. You could even make a bit of money by giving projection room visits for a couple of Dollars a time.

Show classic films, one or two shows per month; The Loew's Jersey pulled in about 800 for the Saturday of the Frankenstein weekend. Show material that is not available elsewhere, advertise your shows widely, and people will come, some of them from a considerable distance. There are plenty of places showing modern films in a modern setting; there is nothing wrong with that, but why not do something different.

Serve the dual purpose of being both a theatre and a museum.

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 06-20-2003, 04:40 PM:

I too would be against selling off this equipment! I e-mailed William the name of a collector who could sure help out with the restoration. With proper restoration, there is no reason why this equipent could not be used for shows.

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-20-2003, 07:10 PM:

I have gone completely thru the pictures and Oh boy. I`d have to agree with Mark about selling to the highest bidder. That WE monitor 555 lst is worth plenty and there might be more on the stage because looking at the reproducer on the 1a base it looks as if it were never modified for "Wide Range" which changed the gate arrangement to a slightly curved gate and a different optical. Too bad the original Crocker- Wheeler motors arent still there with their control cabinets.The ones with the 205 vacuum tubes would bring the most money. Having both the 705 faders is great. Red machine, left; white machine right always. If you did`nt want to swing the fader knob all the way around when you changed over you could use the "reprod' key on the top left and it would change over giving the attenuation of fader step nine. The amplifier rack is a WE 41 and 42 amp,the 42 being the final. Most on the west coast had 43 amps as the finals. Guess they did`nt use the 200a horn panel as they were used in the larger houses. I did`nt see the 18v mg set in the pix but they may have updated to a tungar power unit. AGAIN; Mark is 200% correct on this. Take him up on his offer to send you names. To the boys who want to restore it; the "iron horse"[1a base] has many miles left in it, if you pack the bearings with more cotton waste and provided the reeds are still left in the 707[movietone] drive. Id like to hear it run up less than seven feet between the cues. A sound you`ll never forget. Also I would like you hear the reproduction out of that 1.5 or 2 mil slit.Not what youre used to.The amplifiers interest me as they will the Japanese. I see Altec changed to their 1276 tubes when WE started charging so much for the 205`s. I`ve used 2a3`s with an xformer or RCA had a 6A3 that would work ok on the 5v filament voltage. I don`t like to repeat myself,but, listen to Mark.

Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 06-20-2003, 08:46 PM:

I love these kind of pictures!
They are so fascinating to look at. I wish there were more of these kind to look at. I have just about memorized all the photos in the picture warehouse.
As to the subject at hand, give the stuff a good home and go with something more modern. If handled properly you should be able to make enough to buy good modern used equipment.
Chow!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-20-2003, 09:28 PM:

Guys,
It all really depends on what they are trying to do. If they want to play a film once in a while this equipment is WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! You'd never know if it was going to work the next time you'd need it.......or if it wound work on the next changeover for that matter. Even Wolk discarded all of the Super and Standard Simplex patrts!! These things are for display only! There's also another problem...they have to have an operator...no question about that. The old projectionists ghost isn't going to suffice here. Sure this is all neato...perhaps someone would buy it all and keep it all together...but get back to the point that they seem to want to just show an occasional film. These occasional showings are many times very marginal in the profit column, and sometimes there is alot of money paid "Up Front" to even bring in a decent film. What ever they do its got to work every time, it has to be stereo, and it has to be able to be operated by the manager, or whoever can be trained..... Also, the stuff's worth a ton of money if selling it off is handled correctly, possibly enough cash can be had to install something that'll work reliably.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 06-20-2003, 11:33 PM:

John Pytlak said; "it looks like someone walked out of that booth 50 years ago and it has been in a state of suspended animation ever since"
John; I think you`d have been a hell of a lot closer with 65 years.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-21-2003, 02:55 AM:

Mark wrote:

quote:
There's also another problem...they have to have an operator...no question about that.

Everywhere I know that runs film on an occasional basis has an operator to do it. Sometimes it is somebody from their own staff, maybe a lighting or sound technician, sometimes they bring somebody in for an evening when required. I have done this myself from time to time, (shameless plug, anyone need an operator on an occasional basis in the London area?) Most of these type of places are now running towers, some are on changeovers, platters are not very common, but when there is film running there is a projctionist there to run it.

I don't know anywhere now running '30s machines, there are plenty of early to mid '50s ones still in use, the majority running as single machines. In many cases the old machines were still working reliably when taken out, either because of modernisation, or closure. Scott reports running Western bases reliably, albeit with later heads. Only a few years ago, I knew of two places still running even older equipment; one has closed, another, near Paris may still be doing so, I don't know. Both were running reliably, the French ones on a daily basis, the English ones for occasional shows.

After many years of dis-use, old machines would need restoration, and would need looking after when in use, but, given this, there is no reason why they should not run reliably. The last time I ran machines of similar vintage to these was not that many years ago, and there was certainly no doubt as to whether they would work for the next show, or even the next changover. Indeed, I have to say that film projectors, old or new, are about the most reliable devices I know.

What there is the opportunity to preserve here is a complete installation of the period, in almost original condition, in an original building, even down to the cans of film cement on the shelf. I know of plenty of outdoor nitrate boxes dating from the '10s to the '30s now equipped with a '50s Westar or '60s Philips/Kinoton, and I know of plenty of preserved '30s projectors, in museums, theatre foyers, homes, etc., but I don't know of anywhere with original equipment in an original building in as close to original condition as this, and still in use. It's a rare, possibly unique, opportunity to preserve a cinema installation of this period, in this condition, and it ought to be taken.

Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 06-21-2003, 06:49 AM:

I'd have to agree with Mark on this one. The pictures bring back memories, and the machinery is fascinating, but it belongs on display, not showing film. As an analogy, I think that the ENIAC is cool to look at down at the Smithsonian, but I wouldn't want to use it to access this forum. Put one machine in the lobby for all the folks to look at. Stick a donation box in front of it, of course.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-21-2003, 03:02 PM:

Looks like I'm heavily outnumbered on this one, but I'm going to make one last appeal to preseve this place; then I'll shut up.

Various suggestions have been made, sell everything, sell the sound equipment and use money to buy new, exhibit one machine in lobby, etc. All of these proposals mean the loss of what makes this place so unusual, a complete surviving installation, in almost original condition, and in an original projection room in an original theatre. I'm not suggesting that you would seek out equipment like this to equip a new cinema if you were building one today. My personal choice for that would be a pair of modified FP-30s, others will have their own ideas, nor that all cinemas should retain their original equipment for ever. I do howerver believe that we should preserve at least one example from this era, in working condition, and showing film. The example we see here is very probably the best we can get, it's not in perfect original condition, but it's not far off.

Other machines of this vintage which survived in regular use until recently were pretty well worn out by the end. This equipment had almost a 30 year shorter working life than some, and always ran as a pair, therefore the working hours may be quite low for equipment of this vintage.

Some machines were significantly altered, e.g. to work with long play units and xenons. The first xenons appeared not much more than 20 years after this sort of equipment was made.

Machines which were taken out of regular use long enough ago to have avoided the above fates have often been seriously damaged by vandals or the weather.

This is probably the best example which could be preserved now, I am pretty sure there is nothing in England now in this close to original condition.

It is impossible to tell from the photographs whether this installation could be restored to use, and, if so, at what cost. It would certainly need more looking after than modern equipment, but there may be people available to do that. Maybe the theatre could get financial help from some sort of heritage organisation to preserve this equipment in working order, I don't know how things work over there.

There are plenty of almost complete projectors in lobbies, old theatres with modern equiment, theatres with partly old and partly modernised equipment, but there are not plenty of complete installations, in situ, in original condition, and working. This may be the last chance, and is probably the best one, to preserve a complete working installation, in its original setting; I think they should at least look into the viability of it. If the equipment is removed then that is the end of it, there is no going back; and yes, keep those cans of film cement on the shelf, and the walls the same colour!

I promised I would shut up after ths post, so I will say no more.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-21-2003, 09:27 PM:

I'm with Stephen on this one. If they just want to show films once in a while (every month or so), then I would hope that there would be at least some effort made to keep the existing equipment with as few modifications as possible. It looks like it was a good installation to begin with and it must have far fewer "miles" on it than other, similar, installations, if the theatre really hasn't run film since the '70s.

This venue really needs to get someone who knows the equipment to come in and check it out firsthand. Assuming that everything is mechanically sound, I'd think that they would be best off by installing a new sound system (keeping the old one for display), getting new lenses, and keeping everything else.

I guess I just don't see the parts availability issues that others do. I personally know of at least one non-functional booth with Western Electric bases (no sound rack, though) where parts could probably be scavenged inexpensively. Carbons are available new from Marble and possibly others. Standard Simplex heads aren't exactly rare, either. Enarc lamps are tanks and don't really seem to need much in the way of parts.

The operator issue is probably a nonissue, too. No place like that should have a manager-operated booth, especially if they will be dealing with rare prints. Once they've paid a few hundred dollars for film rental and a bit more for lights, heat/AC, and other theatre staff, another $50 or so for an operator who can make sure that the show runs perfectly is trivial. If anything, I'd think that it would be easier to get operators to run a unique older booth in an historic theatre than to get people to run a "modern" booth. Sure, there might be a need to train people to run arc lamps, but that's a fifteen-minute excercise at most. A phone call to the projectionists' union or a few calls to some other nearby older theatres (probably not the mini-mall multiplexes, though) will probably find them a number of people who would jump at the chance to run film there and may be willing to travel a considerable distance to do so for relatively little pay.

There's absolutely no reason why equipment of that vintage (with upgraded lenses and sound systems) can't be used to put on a technically perfect show. Since they already have the equipment in place in an historically signifcant environment (original installation, mostly unmodified, etc.), I can't really see any reason for them not to at least try to get it to an operational state.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-23-2003, 12:59 AM:

I'm in the 'fix it & use it' camp.
Rep & revival films are run in mono in almost all PAC's anyway.
I'd say use a new amp, though.

The whole thing would be cheaper, easier, faster & less dangerous from the managerial "oh, this is too confusing & greasy, let's just clear it all out!" viewpoint.

Posted by Travis Hubrig (Member # 1745) on 06-24-2003, 01:59 PM:

It seems to me that the people that run this theatre, are more into the history of the building, I don't think that using this equipment is viable... If they want to run shows they should consider more reliable equipment.

Posted by Mike Fitzgerald (Member # 1304) on 07-07-2003, 08:59 PM:

Has anybody heard on what the theatre plans on doing.