This is topic DTS "glide time" in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005017

---

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-22-2003, 05:31 PM:
 
With all of the bad DTS prints currently in circulation, I was wondering if there is a way to increase the "Glide Time" on a DTS unit. (the amount of time between timecode interuption, and drop out)
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 06:02 PM:
 
Mike, I don't think it is possible without re-engineering. When the buffers dump, that's it. It is going to default to analog.

I agree with your statement in a different thread. It is a great format. Probably the best. But the reliability problems of disks, prints, and the unit itself (as compared to SRD) I have to admit I am starting to "think twice" about installing more DTS units. As far as hardware is concerned, every one of our units in our small chain (as well as the spin-off of our chain) has had the DTS6-AD (and the DTS6-D) units in for "rework" at least once. Some have been in twice. As far as I am concerned, that is unacceptable.

To give you an idea, I have a CP-55 in "standby" mode in Anacortes, configured with "D" connectors for quick connect in event the 6AD takes a dump. I shouldn't have to go to these extremes. However, I don't have enough CP-55's to place in standby service in the other 5 screens. In Stanwood, they have a "roll-around" DTS-6AD that doesn't work because of drive failures. Whether McRae ever upgraded it, I don't know at this time.

In a favorable note, I have not had any problems with compatibility issues with the DTS-6D when being used with the analog processors such as the JS series Ultra Stereos or the CP-55 and 65 Dolby units.

Now that the bugs have been worked out of the DTS6-AD (those should have been worked out long before the units were released) we are facing quality control issues with the disks and prints. What's next?

I hope Karen and DTS in general take note of these threads. Their very survival could depend on it.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-22-2003, 06:08 PM:
 
There may be one way to do this. That is to run an E175 time code generator instead of reading the TC on the film. Assumming you don't loose any frames of film and there is a shaft encoder on the projector threading at picture start in the gate and then relying on the shaft encoder to drive the E-175 which can output DTS time code it all ought to stay in sync. The E-175 is looking for 240 Pulses Per Revolution of the encoder for every frame of film. Its pretty simple and many Large format theatres run this way. I would think that any theatre could also do this.
Mark @ CLACO
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 06:12 PM:
 
Mark, If that worked that would be great. But I see more things to fail.

I think the best solution is for the personnel involved to "get it right" the first time.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2003, 06:13 PM:
 

quote:

---

I would think that any theatre could also do this.

---

For less money than just installing SRD? Know how many SRD units I have seen fail since 1992? None.

The way I see it the format design is very reliable provided dts steps in and ensures that these disc and print issues (obviously done "out of house") are kept under tight standards. That is the key to the format working in my opinion. With the hard drive based system coming out, the only real weak point will be the prints and discs themselves.

Has anyone done my old paper towel trick yet? It involved wrapping a few layers of a thick paper towel behind the main roller to add a drag (but not enough that it prevents the roller from spinning). Many a prints that had timecode popping in and out would play fine with the towel in place. Simply "adding more rollers" or positioning the rollers such that the film wrapped moreso around them does not add enough tension to even bother with, especially when they are all ball-bearing based rollers.

I'll see if I can find a picture of the quick and dirty modification and post it. The best part is that it won't void your warranty, unlike jacking with the lateral adjustment.
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 06:15 PM:
 
I have seen only one CP-500 fail. Water got into it because of a roof leak.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2003, 06:26 PM:
 
I just took some quick shots from my rental unit to show the drag...







Normally if you were to give the main roller a spin, it would spin multiple revolutions. With the same spin, the roller only turns maybe 1/2 revolution. (Again, this should NOT prevent the roller from spinning when film is running through it.) This greatly helps to smooth out the bumpiness from a bouncing platter or feed reel as well as projector vibration. Timecode does track better this way. Just be prepared to change out the paper towel once every year or two.

BTW, the thicker the paper towels the better. The best I've found is something UA used to buy called "Value Choice" heavy duty wipes. That is what is shown here (cut down to size, of course).
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 06:29 PM:
 
Good idea, Brad.

Another thing that helps is the use of the film cleaner. That smoothens it out quite a bit, especially if the platters are the A3's, CFS, or Potts.

Christie AW3 could suffer the same problems if someone removed the impedance spring from the center roller. The film just might bounce all over the place on its way to the projector. Obviously that is not too cool, and it could drive the time code reader nuts.
 

---

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-22-2003, 06:55 PM:
 
I like it when people say that DTS would be a great format if everything that was wrong with it were fixed. What format wouldn't? CDS would rock if everything bad about it was good instead.
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 06:59 PM:
 
Joe, you could bet your butt on that one.....
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2003, 07:12 PM:
 
I don't like that impedence spring at all. I've found that it requires constant maintenance to keep a smooth payout. So long as your rollers are in good shape, simply removing it provides a nice smooth payout without too much tension.
 

---

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-22-2003, 07:20 PM:
 
Why is everyone having DTS issues all of a sudden? Aside from bad drives (a problem which is largely gone by now), I've never had any major issues with the format, assuming that the disks arrive with the print. One theatre where I used to work was set up (badly) such that the CP200 wouldn't fault to optical if the DTS unit failed. They ran that way for over a year and never had any problems.

I don't currently work anywhere that has DTS; of the three or so theatres where I currently fill in on a semi-regular basis, two are single-screens with mono (yes, still), and one is a multiplex which has SRD on three of six screens. I love SRD for its huge advantage in title availability and for its single-system design, but I've had no end of troubles with the basement readers in Simplex Five-Star soundheads. Prints which play with moderate error rates (5-6) on the cat. 700 simply won't play at all in SRD in this theatre (yes, the same prints). This theatre has a very good tech, so I don't think it's an alignment issue.
 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 08:00 PM:
 
Scott, I think it has more to do with the frequency of the DTS issues, and people like me are getting a little annoyed by it.

I agree with Brad on the impedance spring. But I have noted that it does make a difference in stability if it were intact. Maybe not much, but I have to say it helps the entire issue if the spring was working the way it is supposed to....When I was at Stanwood, I still used them, but it was a pain in the butt sometimes.
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2003, 08:39 PM:
 
In theatres with a long travel distance from the platter to the projector I used to get timecode dropouts from the jitter introduced by film sag
I started taking old 4 track penthouses and cutting the front off them and mounting a dts reader where the mag head used to be and let the davis tight loop damp it out
this is a simplex one I did the motiograph works the best


 

---

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-22-2003, 08:44 PM:
 
Josh, if you are following this thread, I have some Simplex penthouses as you know...and if we get a DTS for your booth, I'll give you one of those to follow Gordon's suggestion.
 

---

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-23-2003, 11:15 AM:
 
My biggest gripe with the DTS is how easy it is for a reel splice to make the unit drop for a second while it tries to figure out what just happened. There should be some intelligence built into the system to see the end of reel 2 coming, and prepare for a smooth transition to the beginning of reel 3, by IGNORING the first reel id it sees after reel 2 knowing that it's probably wrong.

I know that's not specifically what you're talking about, but I thought I'd throw that out there. As long as we're talking about DTS fixing things.
 

---

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-23-2003, 11:30 AM:
 
Brad, Your auxiliary roller is in the wrong position. It should be pivoted as close to the large center roller as possible without touching.

DTS drop-out = You need to have AT LEAST 4 seconds of no timecode for the unit to drop out. Frame-to-frame splices or reel changes will not make a correctly working DTS player drop out. DTS can follow any size edit without dropping out.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

---

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-23-2003, 01:58 PM:
 

quote:

---

My biggest gripe with the DTS is how easy it is for a reel splice to make the unit drop for a second while it tries to figure out what just happened. There should be some intelligence built into the system to see the end of reel 2 coming

---

There are issues with dts sometimes, but I have worked with dozens of dts processors, and I would say that in general, the dts system is almost bullet proof.
Especially splices between reels, but also biger edits - dts has no problem at all here.
I remember we had a major interlock accident once. There were more than 10 places where the print was stretched for several cm (or inches if you want). To make the print somehow playable before until the arrival of the replacement reel, I had to cut several feet in several places.
The dts player took all these hurdles without any problems at all.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2003, 03:14 PM:
 

quote:

---

Brad, Your auxiliary roller is in the wrong position. It should be pivoted as close to the large center roller as possible without touching.

---

No it isn't Karen. I've had that roller in every imagineable position possible and not had dropouts. For that matter, every dts screen in town I have been to is set up like that too! It's a ball bearing based roller. Adding an extra 45 degrees of wrap is simply not going to make a difference as I have tried it. The main benefit of it is to ensure that the film doesn't "run-out" of the reader from an improperly adjusted feed roller. If you would try the roller-drag trick you would find a far superior solution to a bouncing feed issue that you are trying to achieve from that roller.
 

---

Posted by Karen Hultgren (Member # 395) on 06-23-2003, 04:15 PM:
 
Brad, we have found that positioning the auxilary roller as close to the center roller as possible (without touching) produces the best results.

Karen at DTS
khultgren@dtsonline.com
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-23-2003, 04:21 PM:
 
I have found the roller angle does make a big difference.
The drag method I would hazzard a guess may cause some abrasion of the SRD and SDDS tracks as the roller will be running slower than the film scuffing them from the breaking action
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-23-2003, 04:49 PM:
 
On the drag modification, it has never been an issue Gordon. I've played prints for 4-5 months mostly through a modified dts reader like was pictured on the previous page and the SRD will still track 0-2 at the end of the engagement. Same for SDDS. Besides if you read my post carefully enough you would have noticed that I specifically noted that there should not be so much tension as to actually freeze or slow the roller, only enough to take the bounce out.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 12:15 AM:
 
Quote:
"For less money than just installing SRD? Know how many SRD units I have seen fail since 1992? None."
________________________________________________________________
Brad,
You've got to be kidding!! I think you're the only tech that would claim that statement. I guess you got in a bit(pun intended) too late to experience all the defective power supply modules that Dolby actually went around and replaced themselves(certainly commendable though). Next time you are working on an early DA-20 pull the supply out and check for charred nylon power supply connectors, its 50/50 that you'll find it that way! The last one I found was a little over a year ago. If it is that way, the hell with the connector, just solder the wires right to the power supply PCB. Odd Dolby hasn't figured out that you only need a connector at one end yet. They love plugs, but seem to choose to use something smaller than the current passing through it requires. Also, early DA-20's cannot be upgaded to auto digital with out an expensive CAT 611A interface card replacement.....around 500 bucks...customers gotta have auto digital so all their locations function the same. In early DA-20's and in alot of CP-500's I experienced cat 670 video input card failure many times. I admit that overall they have become very reliable in the past few years though. I will instill that none of my experiences has swayed me away fomr putting them into systems though..... I still install DA-20's on occasion, but DTS is by far the better deal out there for general purpose digital playback, plus The XD player has only made DTS even easier to use in a multiplex situation.

The moral is that EVERY system out there has had its share of problems, but fortunately, the two important remaining systems have for the most part cured their problems.

Mark

P.S. Oops...I forgot all those SRD basement readers that never quite worked too reliably...... many gave up on them and replaced them with 2000.00 penthouses! Ouch! Basement readers seem to be fine now though with the faster optics being used.......
Mark
 

---

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-24-2003, 02:41 AM:
 
DTS isn't a good option at all for art venues (neither is SDDS). In fact, Dolby Digital is the ONLY option. I'd say 95% of all prints have Dolby Digital on them. For art house releases, I'd say maybe 15% of prints have DTS on them and maybe 5% arrive with actual discs. Any art chain stupid enough to buy into DTS gets what they deserve, a digital player that collects dust.

Anyway from a multiplex point of view, you want something that will be reliable. Just use the Film-Tech search function and look for "DTS" in the subject title. You will find a bunch of recent threads dealing with reliability issues. Do you want cheap or do you want reliable? Soon DTS will be more expensive than Dolby Digital from what I understand with their new XD10 Turbo or whatever the hell it is called. And like I've said before it uses the SAME timecode and is succeptable to the same dropouts. So unless DTS fixes this fast and good, then there really is no argument anymore. If they do get it fixed, then let the digital sound wars commence again!

Also if you must do an emergency interlock, there is no time to wait for the studio to send extra discs. Anyone who copies them for this or similar purposes gets no shame. I'm not sure how copying the discs for ANY reason could cause harm. Just movie industry paranoia.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 03:39 AM:
 
Mark, I'll grant you some of the basement readers have issues, but if you bought the Dolby penthouse readers (or the BACP) and not a competing brand's retrofit, there were and still are no real problems. Since there are no basement dts readers built by other companies, I feel your argument is a bit unfair. After I got through the issues with the original Christie basement readers, I haven't had any real problems with them either.

You mentioned the "auto-digital" feature via the cat611A card. NONE of my customers want this and I agree. The digital should not automatically kick in and take over (ala dts and sdds) until the projectionist or automation tells it that it is time to commence digital playback. I always disable that on the cat611A cards. This to me is not a valid argument. Besides, if your customers want auto-digital, just change the automation wiring so that it pulses directly into format 10 and if there is no digital data it will just revert to SR and be "auto-digital" from that point on. There you go, free 611A auto-switching for 5 minutes of your time. Surely your rate for 5 minutes per machine is less than $500?

Regarding failures, I have had multiple failures on the cat675 card (I think that was the number) on the very first batch of DA10s, but you read correctly that there have been zero failures on DA20s, CP500s or CP650s in my neck of the woods and no power supply failures on anything. The same no-failure rating goes for the penthouse readers except for one cat700 that was purchased used from a closing theater that was received with the arms broken which had seen plenty of abuse (again, not fair to the argument). On the flip side, every single dts system around town has had to have something upgraded or replaced. On the original 2 drive dts units (definitely the most reliable) it was the timecode reader. On the first batch of 6-d units it was a chunk of bad power supplies, multiple changing out of the timecode firmware, then ALL of the drives on every unit failed, a couple of audio boards here and there, a couple of timecode boards here and there and then lots of damaged discs due to the thin cases and recently bad timecode printing. Meanwhile, the SRD systems have been purring along without issues.

So yes, Dolby Digital does has a noticeably better track record, at least for me. That being said I will grant you that the design of the dts system is more robust at handling damaged prints than the other two formats, but what my customers want is reliability without hassles, and they are all first-run so damaged prints aren't an issue. Dts started getting a bad rep around here a few years back when drives started failing and only the big chains got free replacements. The little guys got stuck with shelling out hundreds of bucks to replace them with the Teacs. Let's not forget all of these things when comparing the two systems. In the end because of these failures, the dts systems ended up costing more than a Dolby Digital system would have. You must remember to include any refunded ticket or concession money when there was a failure. I'm not bashing the dts system saying that no one should install it, for it IS a good system, but for you to say that it is definitely better than SRD in terms of reliability, that's crazy and just not true in my experience.
 

---

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-24-2003, 03:43 AM:
 

quote:

---

I forgot all those SRD basement readers that never quite worked too reliably

---

quote:

---

I'd say 95% of all prints have Dolby Digital on them. For art house releases, I'd say maybe 15% of prints have DTS on them and maybe 5% arrive with actual discs.

---

That is good to know. We have an arthouse cinema with 4 dts units. I would rather move these to bigger screens in multiplexes and get CP650s for that cinema. Because I remember there was a discussion here some months ago about the sound formats most often used for arthouse films in the US.
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-24-2003, 07:55 AM:
 
I have definately had my share of equipment failures from all three Digital manufacturers. Some of the DA-20 failures are minior (Cat. 674 LED board doesn't light all of its LEDs, there have been three in the last 6-months)...some unit disabling...like the Cat. 671. On Dolby and DTS I've had the mysterious drifting lip-sync issue (mid show)

So sure one can pick on any of the systems.

If I were to advise DTS to update something, I would say the reader(s). In fact, I've said it since 1993. It is the art of simplicity yet I feel it is too simplistic for the job. It doesn't maintain proper control over the film in the scanning area. It should control the film better laterally and ensure smooth/even film speed in the scanning area (read, flywheel). Lastly (and the most complicated part), I'd probably overscan the time-code area on the film and come up with a routine that will lock onto the code, even if it is out of position...so long as it was readable.

As to basement readers. I've used Kelmar, Component Engineering and Kinoton. All of the ones we've installed are operating and never a lick of trouble except for the stupid-as-can-be-red-LEDs fading.

Steve
 

---

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-24-2003, 08:04 AM:
 
Going to a timecode generator and shaft encoder avoids dropouts, but it defeats the synchronization in the DTS system. This would be a bad idea IMO... you assume that the track is going to be exactly the same as your assembled print. You'd have to have every frame of film that DTS encoded sound for or the sync will be lost, and for sure any frames cut off the heads and tails would cause sync creep. (I know, none of us cut off frames, but...)
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 08:05 AM:
 
Quote:
"The little guys got stuck with shelling out hundreds of bucks to replace them with the Teacs. Let's not forget all of these things when comparing the two systems. In the end because of these failures, the dts systems ended up costing more than a Dolby Digital system would have."
_________________________________________________________________

Brad, Apparently you didn't read ALL of my statement above. I said this......

>The moral is that EVERY system out there has had its share of problems, but fortunately, the two >important remaining systems have for the most part cured their problems.

Also, the price of doing an upgrade to a DTS is far less than the price difference between SRD and DTS, which is well over 2 grand. Perhaps some dealers charge more than 2 grand to do this....? Remember Dolby doesn't include the reader!! The upgrade kit with 30 min of labor runs our customers about 400.00 for a 3 drive upgrade. I get power supplies for 10 bucks at a resale shop, install a new fan in them and put em in service. This costs me about 15 bucks to do. If the fans in the DTS supplies never failed I wouldn't see any power supply failures.
BTW: I've only had one TEAC drive failure since DTS switched over to them. It was replaced free of charge!
___________________________________________________________

Quote:
"On the original 2 drive dts units (definitely the most reliable) it was the timecode reader."
_________________________________________________________________
DTS replaced or exchanged all of these readers at no charge for me and all of the places I have subsequently worked at, and for everyone else that owns them so far as I know. There were a limited number of those readers in the field tobegin with...they were known as the "Jurassic Park Readers" by most techs. They also have provided me with firmware upgrade chips at no charge. I always check units when I'm in the field on normal service to be sure they have the latest upgrade version and after I check it I always write the version number on the back of the unit to make checking easier on future visits. Changing the firmware chip takes less than 10 min and is painless unless you happen to prick your finger with a pin from the I.C.

_________________________________________________________

Quote:

"Plus this doesn't include any refunded ticket or concession money when there was a failure."
_________________________________________________________________

In this neck of the woods and in most necks of the woods there is analog backup always available so there are no refunds to happen. The only place this can happen is in an all digital processor that completely crashes...thats why I refuse to sell ONLY all digital processors to a theatre.....and then there is at least minimal analog backup in any processor when in bypass. So in this day and age any "refunds" are either because of a crash or because the manager made the decision to do so even though there was some sound available to accompany the film...and yes the latter does happen on occasion.

This brings me to another point that Joe made that is partially true....not just for art houses, but for all theatres in general. And that is to pretty much forget about digital for art releases and stick to SR. The problem I run into is that many other dealers led their customers to believe that analog was no longer the main sound format out there when in fact they were just plain wrong. My theory is that analog is still the main source of audio information for all films in standard release format, and indeed it is still the world standard too. That means that one should have the best analog playback available on all his screens.... This also eliminates installing an all digital processor as they are not cpable of the outputting the very best analog playback...so far only an analog processor is capable of this...but that may some day change! I fortunately have heard digitally processed sound that is indistinguishable from its original analog source...but nothing exists in todays theatre equipment marlet that is capable of doing that...yet. There are several reasons for installing the best analog playback and one of them is the art house problem in which I see about a 50/50 mix of films with analog only, and 50% films with digital tracks. Many lower budget productions do not have the budget for digital, or perhaps they just felt it to be unnecessary. The other reason for the highest quality analog is that there is less difference in sound when your digital playback processor does have to revert to the main analog audio source. It will be less noticable to the audience when it does happen and you will continue on with excellent quality sound, and in some cases the analog track is superior to the digital track!. But taking into consideration that analog is still the main source goes beyond art houses. Take "Big Fat Greek Wedding" for example. This film didn't just play in art houses.... Many normal multiplex locations played that film for in excess of 20 weeks, quite a number played it for over 40 weeks and it was an SR analog only release. Unfortunately, many played it back in poor quality analog as they were still using old style exciter lamps and slit lenses, or perhaps sometimes in use with other "RED" light sources that some dealer sold them in which no real gains in quality were made to the "A" chain when they were installed. At any rate, having top notch analog capability is to me still the most important thing to consider in any theatre. Its unfortunate that I've run into alot of theatre owners over the years that had been brainwashed by their dealer into thinking that analog was no longer important....just backup......but in my experience its the digital playback system thats either in need of repair, missing its software, unable to read its software, or not reliable enough to use any longer than 2 weeks into a run of a film because the digital tracks are too worn to read back.

Wanna talk about being ripped off and customers....now lets discuss how much trouble there has been with SDDS and how expensive it is to have those units repaired.........

Mark
 

---

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 06-24-2003, 08:26 AM:
 
uh-oh, I smell a red vs. white light debate again...............

Josh
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 09:22 AM:
 
Josh, Not really. Apparently you too didn't read all of my postings.
Mark
 

---

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-24-2003, 09:27 AM:
 

quote:

---

There are issues with dts sometimes, but I have worked with dozens of dts processors, and I would say that in general, the dts system is almost bullet proof.
Especially splices between reels, but also biger edits - dts has no problem at all here.

---

In general, I agree. The reel change drop outs I was referring to come up from time to time on certain splices, but on those splices it happens consistantly every time. On other splices that are ok, they're ok every time. Others here have commented on the exact same problem. I'm glad you don't seem to have that problem, but we do see it here occasionally at several of our theaters.
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-24-2003, 09:33 AM:
 
The independent art theatres here in toronto use DTS as there sole digital format and have had very little problems getting disks
In fact I just finished a new 6 plex art theatre and it is all dts.
Also the capabilitie to use the dts subtitling system has many advantages for them
 

---

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 06-24-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
Greetings to you all

In a recent post Brad wrote;

'Since there are no basement dts readers built by other companies, I feel your argument is a bit unfair.'

One has to point out that any research, or indeed attempts to build, basement dts readers would be of little use to the film community(ref. 1.) since there is 0 displacement between image and corresponding timecode for said image. This feature of dts would make it impossible to maintain any senblence of synchronisation betwixt image and sound.

My research team and I, way back in the Summer of 1995, attempted to manufacture a method of scanning the dts track at the projector aperture and entering a 0 timecode offset in the dts 6 player. Whilst the system worked in principle, and we were able to reproduce audio in synchronisation with the image on screen, the impracticalities of the prism array to enable the timecode to arrive at a reader through the aperture plate, and not penetrate through to the screen were great. It was found that the modified timecode reader had to be mounted at a 47.5 degree angle to the projector gate, which in turn made lacing the machine extremely difficult.

In a number of field tests here in the UK, it was found that the timecode prism array and the two aperture plate configurations for both 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 were incompatible, not in the least because the timecode reader impeded complete rotation of the turret and free movement of the aperture plate.

*ref.1 Acta Cinematografia, Vol 88, 2, p.65-78, 'Current Digital Audio Formats for Motion Pictures', auths. Ryder, Weir and Quelch

From Cambridge, goodnight

David
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 02:23 PM:
 
Ok Mark, I'll try to clarify but I'll bet you agree this is getting old.

Like I said, the chains got free Teac upgrade kits when the Toshiba drives failed, the independents had to pay for it out of their own pocket. That was and is still my point, preferential treatment.

I have never had a Teac drive fail on me so far. They seem to be rock solid.

Maybe you get a better deal on dts and I get a better deal on SRD, I don't know. Regardless of the drive costs, a refunded showing with good attendance later and SRD becomes the cheaper system. I say that as fact knowing the failure rates locally as I compare the two formats. I am not saying that you are wrong, but down here that has been the case. Maybe SRD has issues at higher altitudes. (BTW, the whole "which is cheaper" thing started with you recommending to use a shaft encoder rig to drive the dts system. Wouldn't that have caused the price to jump up over SRD too?)

While I agree with you that changing the chip on a dts is easy, it was a nuisance there for awhile when there were upgrades being made routinely. The issue Mark Marshall brought up a couple of posts above led me to trying out all of the different firmware that was available at the time. (Hey Mark M. what firmware are you running in your troubled dts unit out of curiosity? I believe the only two supported ones are v1.29 and v1.46 now.) Not all of the machines had that dropout, but for those units that did have the glitch, it was very aggravating because it did not actually drop to SR, it just did a quick mute. I even tried cutting off 10 id frames at a reel change splice and even that did not fix the blip in audio. I think it had something to do with the way the discs were being coded, because the problem went away on it's own in the very late 90's, but I never got an official reason to what the cause was. It's a moot point though, for like I said it has been fixed.

I never saw any of the original Jurassic readers replaced at no cost. In fact the last time I was in the Galaxy they were still running one. (My paper towel modification permitted the reader to work. You had to have the lights off to even see a faint green glow from the led, but it worked.) I have a feeling the old readers may have had a similar replacement policy like the Toshiba drives did.

Regarding analog, not all theaters put serious interest in their analog. Now I agree with you that having good analog should be a #1 priority, but in the real world this does not always happen. Even if a theater has good analog systems, it is possible the light source has dimmed enough since the last A-chain so that when the digital drops out, there is a noticeable change in volume. That is when the complaints come in and refunds must be given. With there being no good reference Dolby Tone loop anymore, level matching has become real interesting. I'm sure you know how aggravating the whole "tone" issue is.

On your lengthy paragraph about only installing SR in art house theaters, I do not agree. The public is brainwashed on that stupid "digital" buzzword. They want to see it and they expect it. (Note I did not say they could tell a difference.) For this SRD is the only choice. The amount of dts or sdds titles available for an art house is damn near zero.

I might also add that there are first run theaters with the mindset that analog is not important either. I know of a couple that have no functioning analog at all! One of them has been running that way for a couple of years because the SRD has been so reliable it hasn't been needed. It all depends on the person writing the check, but my argument about losing a show and refunding tickets was referencing a slight volume change over time when the digital cuts in and out. There is nothing more annoying than that. (Well, maybe total silence.)

(BTW, I'm not so sure I'm too happy with the red reader switch.)
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 03:53 PM:
 
I still have yet to hear of a house making any refund because the digital system failed...no matter which system it was. Any manager worth his pay would never allow such a thing. Most projectionists I know are trained to turn off the digital system if its not decoding properly...pretty much a no brainer. In that case level wouldn't matter at all. You'd simply turn up the volume.

I don't recall saying that art houses should only install SR, If thats what I said then thats not what I meant.... but that they should install the best SR equipment available. Remember I said that I see about 50/50 analog and digital playing in art houses. All of the art houses in SLC are equipped with some DTS and some SRD equipment. Art houses occasionally play mainstream movies and mainstream houses sometimes play art films. Both need both formats of digital and occasionally art houses even need SDDS! The last Jurassic Park reader was exchanged when I was at GTS. GTS is in fact not even a DTS dealer..... only setup to buy parts from them. I didn't see any discrimination going on there although I certainly know it exists in the industry.

I agree that DTS did discriminate on the drive thing, however Dolby follows the same practice as do many companies out there! You in fact bought a DP-70 from a guy that was very put down by Dolby. So badly that he refuses to buy ANY new Dolby equipement at all.

Mark
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 04:20 PM:
 
I must debate one more thing Mark, and that is with the refund issue. When I was managing theaters, if ANYTHING went wrong, everyone in the audience got a free pass and if it was a fairly serious problem, I would refund their concessions too. (If we could no longer show the rest of the movie due to some kind of major breakdown, it was not uncommon to hand out two passes, one so they could return to see the rest of the movie and a second one for their inconvenience.) I know lots of other managers who practice that as well. It's called "customer satisfaction". If you screw your customers on something that they paid for by not delivering the product without problems, they will not continue to patronize your business. I call that good management.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 08:08 PM:
 
Cancelling a show that can run with good quality SR analog to me makes no sense. Certainly a "MAJOR" breakdonw easily justifies a refund and two passes is pretty much standard in the industry. I just don't consider a digital sound format problem that might last a few seconds to half a min. a major breakdown, nor worthy of a refund. Certainly any patron complaining about even a small problem such as may happen while the operator does what he has to to get permenently to SR mode should be made happy and compensated. However, a few blips during reverting back and forth, or outright failure to play back of an outboard(or inboard) processor should be caught immediately by the operator in charge and the patrons should hardly even know anything at all was wrong.

Mark

P.S. I also agree with Joe about the fact that some SR mixes are more preferable to listen to than their digital counterparts....."Chicago" was a great example of a knock your socks off analog track! so the patrons may possibly be getting the better of the two mixes if the digital processor crashes or dies.
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-24-2003, 08:57 PM:
 

quote:

---

I just don't consider a digital sound format problem that might last a few seconds to half a min. a major breakdown, nor worthy of a refund.

---

I do not believe that was my description of a "major breakdown". Regardless, most booths today are manager ran or operated by kids who just want beer money for the weekend. When something goes wrong, especially in those large multiplexes, it can easily take at least 5 minutes to get there and correct the problem. If 5 minutes of a movie is screwed up, that is worthy of a pass to me, but that is not what I would call a "major breakdown". How would you like it if you purchased a new car and every once in awhile it just shut off while you were driving down the highway? I'm betting you would demand another or abandon that brand. I know the analogy is ludicrous (can't think of a better one right now) and that $8 is nothing compared to a car, but nonetheless that is no excuse for not making good on a bad performance in some fashion.
 

---

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2003, 09:54 PM:
 
Brad,
I guess I'm used to someone being in the booth for the most part. Only our smaller customers are manager operated. Even the 5 screen theatre we service in Ketchum has a projectionist. Another customer has a rule of thumb that over six screens there is an operator....almost all of theor locationsa re now larger than six screens.
Mark
 

---

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-25-2003, 05:17 AM:
 
I will be eternally grateful to dts because, before I moved to San Diego, I lived in Berlin, and in Germany, all movies are dubbed !
My theater had one of the best sound systems in the city. We were allowed to watch movies privately at night or in the morning. But what use is that when the movies are dubbed ?
I would borrow the discs from one of the few theaters which showed original versions, copy them and watch the OV at my own theater, thanks to dts.
Yes, I confess - I copied dts discs to satisfy my thirst for original language screenings.
 

---

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-25-2003, 08:41 AM:
 

quote:

---

(Hey Mark M. what firmware are you running in your troubled dts unit out of curiosity? I believe the only two supported ones are v1.29 and v1.46 now.)

---