Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: TA-10 Installation and Programming

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Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 07-04-2003, 06:59 PM:

I'm installing a TA-10 and I need to know how to set up the cues. I see all of the connections inside the TA-10 labeled Q1A, Q1B, etc. I need to know how to hook these up for things like show end etc.
I also have a Xetrol IV dimmer that has just two steps, up and down. It has 3 wires that hooked up in my old Raven automation labeled: up, down, and common. How can I hook this dimmer up and how do I do the cues for the lights down at the show start and up at the credits? I will be installing a new dimmer down the road that will go to half at show start then off when the feature starts then back up at the end so I will need to be able to do that as well. Thanks in advance.
John

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-05-2003, 05:52 AM:

The TA 10 is highly flexible in what you can do with it but the easiest way is to use the event relays and leave the cue relays for customisation.

The events are common to all shows so...

Event 1 happens when you press start.... it turns on the Motor and Xenon lamp. Put your lights down on this event.

Event 2 happens 7 seconds after event 1, it opens the shutter and turns the alarms on.

Event 3 happens when your end of show cue goes thru. You select which cue you want to use and connect the yellow pair onto the terminals. I always use the middle cue, number 2, for this personally.

Event 4 happens 'x' seconds after event 3. You set the delay 'x' using the dip switches on the top circuit board. The shutter will then close after 'x' seconds. The alarms are turned off waiting for the film to run out, end of film, or another interval cue to restart event number 1.

Event 5 is film run out and stops the projector.

An alarm event triggers events 3, 4 & 5.

So put your lights down onto event 1 and your lights up onto event 3. You will need to set the delay for event 4 to match your curtains closing speed if you have them. Also set the up & down fade rate to match. If you can't set the fade rates you may have to use a cue to control the lights directly. But avoid this if possible as it will use up two cues you could use for other functions. It's also less work when cueing up in the first place.

The manual explains all of this in some detail so if you don't have one its available from CA's web site and on Film-Tech.

You will need to assign which relays are triggered by each event so sit down and write out what you want to happen with each event and work out how many relays you need to tie to an event. Each relay has two sets of contacts. As there are only six event relays available you need to give careful consideration to how you are going to assign them.

You can easily tie an event relay to more than one event if you need to... but you MUST use diodes if you want to do this. If you are only tieing a relay to a single event you can use a simple wire jumper. I ALWAYS use diodes so there is no confusion later.

NOTE! You can tie a CUE relay to an EVENT relay or visa versa
if you need to but you MUST use a diode for this. Doing this can extend the number of functions controled by an event or cue.

I would use cue 1, 3, 5, & 7 for functions that happen when film sound is NOT active ie on lacing leaders. That way there is no loud thump as the cue goes thru.

Cue 2 for end of show , leaving cue's 4 & 6 for functions you want to operate whilst on screen.

This may not work out in practice but it is preferable.

My cueing system has always been...

Cue 1 Masking to 1.85. Placed on leader.
Cue 2 End of show / Restart show.
Cue 3 House lights off. Placed on leader.
Cue 4 House lights to low. Placed at start of credits.
Cue 5 Masking to Scope. Placed on leader
Cue 6 Not used
Cue 7 All stop. Placed on feature change run out after ads etc.

Cue 7 was wired thru a normally open contact so we could select to stop during the feature change if we needed to. We had quite a long feature change to allow for stopping and splitting the programe on advert change days. Other wise the projector continued to run until the next middle cue went thru and started the show again.

Cue's 2 & 5 were used for masking control. Cue 2 was applied to the leader and taped over so it was permanent. If the film was in scope you appled the other side of cue five on top of the tape. This way it was easy to change a cue back to 1.85 by simply peeling off the cue from the opposite side.

You can see that there are no sound track cues while on screen. There is only ever a need to put a maximum of two cues onto a film itself. The company I worked for liked the house lights rased to low at the start of the credits. If you don't do this then you only need apply a single middle cue. Everything else is on lacing leaders and in house titles so you don't have to constantly apply cue's.

Hope this helps. Happy to help further if needed.

[ 07-06-2003, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Ken McFall ]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-05-2003, 03:44 PM:

Ken, exactly what type of diodes do you use?

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-05-2003, 04:19 PM:

God you had to ask.... anything rated at 1amp or higher as the manual states... nothing special at all. It's only needed if you want a relay pulsed by more than one event. I always use diodes in case I want to tie a relay to more than one evnt in the future, it's better to be consistant from the start.

It's almost anything you have to hand....

I know I'll regret posting that! [Big Grin]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2003, 05:09 PM:

Careful or Michael will get a god complex when you refer to him like that. [Wink]

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-05-2003, 05:34 PM:

I could so easily have said 'Shit you had to ask' would he have claimed ownership of that?

Oh mighty God Brad am I allowed to say 'shit' on here?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-05-2003, 05:46 PM:

Brad, I don`t understand either why he refers to me as god and why he was inconvenienced by the question. I was just curious to know if he had any special tips/experience to share about the installation from his practice.
BTW, Ken - why is there no location info in your profile anymore? I remember you were somewhere in London. What happened? Are you in prison now? I think it is nice that they let you use the computer once in a while.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-05-2003, 05:49 PM:

Michael, now that he has proclaimed me as a god, I was just playing with my newfound powers and struck him off of the planet. That's why he doesn't have a location anymore.

(Seriously, it looks like he was editing his profile and made a mistake.)

Ken, shit yeah you can say shit if you feel the word shit is necessary to get your shit across. Most of the time it isn't necessary though.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-05-2003, 06:01 PM:

OK Thanks for the kind permission Brad... I'll shit where ever I feel the need.

As for no location... there is a story to tell and I'm busy preparing all of the documentation as to recent events. I'm now unemployed having been used and discarded as seems to be the role of the average worker here.

However, I'm not able to give more info right now.... But I'll provide a web site address soon where you can all read the letters and draw your own conclusion of how employers treat their employee's here in Britain. I have already scanned all of the letters so far into PDF documents ready for posting so be patient.

Until then I'm available for employment by a decent employer.... NOT City Screen.

I stress this is my own opinion and may not be shared by everyone... [Big Grin]

In this country we have comedy shows that use the word Allegedly where you want to make a point without making a statement as such. This of course applies in this case.... Allegedly!!

[ 07-06-2003, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Ken McFall ]

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 07-06-2003, 08:17 AM:

Diodes- use 1N4001s, they're a dime a dozen (leterally !)

Peter

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-06-2003, 08:29 AM:

So are 1N4004 or 1N4007's. Use the 04 or the 07's...they are rated at 400PIV & 1000PIV respectively and will be good for most all general-pupose 1-amp applications where a high-speed diode is not required such as a flyback diode. Anything less than the 04's is a waste of money!

Brad said: "Ken, shit yeah you can say shit if you feel the word shit is necessary to get your shit across."

Whew! Such discusting language. What a potty-mouth you have Brad.

>>> Phil

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-06-2003, 01:53 PM:

You taught me well, Phil.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-06-2003, 05:39 PM:

Michale I was just annoyed because I knew someone would ask which diodes... and I did'nt have the info to hand...

I post relies on here from home and normally with a large G & T in hand, so don't have all of the info to hand... but at least on here you can be sure others will always help out.

Regards.

Peter, just to make things even... you don't spell literally like that..... in the same way you don't spell ferrite as I did. Just felt it needed to be said!

Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 07-06-2003, 11:32 PM:

Bicth !

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-07-2003, 04:43 AM:

quote:
But I'll provide a web site address soon where you can all read the letters and draw your own conclusion of how employers treat their employee's here in Britain.

How about calling it www.dodgydossier.com? And will you be giving us a 45-minute warning? [Big Grin]

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-07-2003, 05:26 AM:

Peter,

That's been said before... by you I think [Big Grin]

Personally I cannot proof read my own writing first time round so these things slip thru easily. I've sent some howlers out in the post in the past... and spell checking a letter only makes matters worse at times.

Leo,

I'll be posting everything I have real soon, once things have been finalised etc. It makes very interesting reading according to everyone that's seen the stuff so far.

But all of this is now way off topic so maybe best dropped or a new topic started.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-07-2003, 05:34 AM:

Right, back to the topic - spelling. My name is spelled Michael, not Michale.

And now for something completely different - sport.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-07-2003, 05:43 AM:

Spot on.... [thumbsup]

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 07-07-2003, 09:47 PM:

Ok now back to the real topic [Wink]

Ive figured out what the most complicated show I would have to run is and now all you have to do is tell me how to hook it up [Smile]

Start button is pushed:

Lights to half
Changeover opens at 7 and the exciter comes on because it is hooked up to the utility relay.

Trailers over and feature starts:

Lights Down to off

Credits start:

Lights up to full

If we have an intermission we have an intermission trailer that plays for the length of the intermission so nothing special is needed.

2nd feature start:

Lights back down to off

2nd feature credits start:

Lights back up to full

Show end:

Changeover close
Exciter off

I don't know how to hook any of this up because this is the first automation I have installed so feel free to go through it step by step [Smile]

Thanks a lot for all the info.

John

**For now I am just using the 2 step dimmer until we can purchase a new one. So for now I just want the lights to go down when the start button is pushed and back up at the credits start. I dont know how to hook up the dimmer wires. I dont know where to connect the up, down, and common.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-08-2003, 01:27 AM:

John, if you are still confused, contact Component Engineering. As far as I know Don Olson is still there and he should be able to tell you what to do in a short period of time as well as which cue placement configuration would be best in your case.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-08-2003, 04:51 AM:

John,

the best I can suggest without knowing more about your installation is the following. I'm assuming you dont have any screen tabs so your masking is visable all the time. I always set masking to fully open so I have assumed this here. If you have top & side masking then you need to use pair(B) on events 1 and cue's 1 & 5 to control the top masking. Pair (A) is assumed to be controlling the side masking only. You also make no mention of screen lighting but I have indicated where it could go.

I tend to put the common connections onto the left side of the terminal pair and the functions on the right. Use link wires to link commons of the same type together. ie all sound commons can normally be linked to each other. If not then each function can have its own unique pair.

Event Relays.
============
Relay E1 = Event 1 Start.
Pair (A) would be House Lights to Low (or off until you get a new dimmer)
Pair (B) Screen Lights Off here if needed.

Relay E2 = Event 2 Shutter Open.
Pair (A) would be Select Sound format to SR or SRD whatever suits your location.
Pair (B) If you had curtains the Open function could go here.

Relay E3 = Event 3 Interval Cue Countdown.
Pair (A) House Lights to Full.
Pair (B) Screen Lights On here if needed.

Relay E4 = Event 4 Shutter Close.
Pair (A) Select Sound Format Non Sync.
Pair (B) Masking to Scope.

(If you have to control two sets of masking use a single relay for both sets. So the masking would be on relay E5 not E4)

Event 5 = Film Run Out.
Not needed in this example so you have two spare event relays for future use. The event relays do not need to be in any special order so you can add functions to any event easily later.

Cue Relays.
===========
Cue 1 Sound Track.
Pair (A) Masking to 1.85

Cue 2 Middle Frame.
Pair (A) Two yellow Interval Start wires coming from mainboard.
Pair (B) If you had curtains the Close function cound go here.

Cue 3 Sound + Middle.
Not used.

Cue 4 Inboard.
Pair (A) House Lights to low.

Cue 5 Sound + Inboard.
Pair (A) Masking to Scope.

Cue 6 Middle + Inboard.
Pair (A) House Lights to Off. Placed on an In House Sound Trailer possibly so its permanent.

Cue 7 All Cues.
Not used.

This is a very 'Basic' configuration and you can alter any of the assignments as you please but its something to go with to get you started. Once you understand the way it all works its easy to change if you decide you don't like something.

As Paul rightly says contact Don at CE they are always very helpful.

Hope this proves useful to you.

Regards Ken.

Posted by John Westlund (Member # 913) on 07-08-2003, 06:16 PM:

Thanks for all your help Ken. I got the dimmer hooked up today and everything is working great now except for the changeover douser (a Zipper mounted on a Century SA). When removing the old automation there was a mishap and the circuit breaker was left on and it shorted and the coil burned up in the changeover and the breaker tripped. The new coil came in today and I put it in and hooked it up but it still doesnt close or open. I don't hear any relays clicking or anything. It doesnt open or close automatically or with the manual control.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 07-09-2003, 05:02 AM:

Glad to hear you're making progress. Shame about the changover coil, these things happen but's thats the way you learn... you won't make that mistake again [Big Grin]

Can't help much on the changover not working as I don't know exactly what you have there. But just to be sure, are the relays in the TA10 functioning as you manually operate the dowser button. Check it with a meter for correct operation just to eliminate the TA10 as the problem. It's doubtful but just to be sure.

The changeover system should be a simple enough circuit. AC Line into the common terminal and one open coil on the NO OPen terminal and one close coil on the NO CLose terminal. Check where the neutrals are joined and of course check you have mains voltage. It's almost certainly something simple, fuse or a broken connection from when the old system was removed. Just take time and check everything thru systematically. Taking all sensible safety precautions!

One thought, are you wiring the coils directly thru the TA10 or interfacing with some existing controls on the projector or elsewhere... if so do these work correctly?

Maybe someone else on here familiar with your site can help further. I'm cautious about suggesting things when I'm not familiar with the equipment as there are too many variables to try and cover.

However if you're unsure GET PROFESSIONAL HELP!