Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: "Pirates" SR track sounds wierd

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-10-2003, 01:47 AM:

Here's an experience I haven't had to deal with in years.

The analog track on my print of "Pirates" sounds like [bs]

crap!

The sound is much like what you'd get if you took an unencoded cassette and played it with Dolby C. The low level passages on my print almost literally disappear, and the dialog is choppy.... like we're trying to decode something that wasn't encoded to begin with.

I'm getting much more acceptable sound off this print by running it in Dolby "A".

What really highlighed the problem was that the 5 trailers I ran before the feature sounded just fine. "Pirates" sounded lousy right from the start & never got better.

So, here's my question. Do I have a crappy print? (seems unlikely), or did the mixer guys just blow off the analog track because, naturally, all theatres worth spending your hard earned buck at MUST have working digital sound systems (right?)!

The leaders never say much about the analog "backup" track anymore. Mine says it's got DTS, SDDS, SRD & SRDEX.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 07-10-2003, 01:58 AM:

By the terms of the license with Dolby, if there is a SRD track, then the analog backup must be SR.

Perhaps the analog mix just sucks. [Frown]

-Aaron

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-10-2003, 03:01 AM:

Yah, probably.

Good to know though. I wasn't aware of that.

Thanks

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-10-2003, 03:02 AM:

What kind of analog reader do you have?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-10-2003, 03:32 PM:

Component Engineering's reverse scanner.

In case you're heading in that direction, I'm planning to run my loop thru it today. Everything looks good visually, but you know how far that can get you.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-10-2003, 04:49 PM:

Have you run the film more than once, to see if at the splice the film jumps out of place on the sound drum? Could the sound have been printed out of focus? This could cause the output of the cells to be at a lower level, and cause SR to miss-track.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-10-2003, 05:47 PM:

Are all reels affected? If only one reel is affected, check the position of the track and whether is has even silver redevelopment (dark gray band across the width of the colored dyes in the track). If there was a slippage problem in the printer, the high frequency modulations in the track will be smeared or blurred.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-10-2003, 07:33 PM:

Alignment is good. Nowadays, you don't have much wiggle room anyways... you go one way & you're reading sprockets. Go the other & it's the DTS track. It's like a built-in buzztrack loop! [Wink]

. Focus is also fine. Nothing's been whacked out of place. The trailers play fine, but everything changes when the print starts.

I'm moving the show to another screen tonight. It'll be interesting to see if the problem moves as well.

John... the whole print is like that, not just a reel or two.

Jack

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-10-2003, 10:27 PM:

Since each reel is printed and processed at a different time, often on different equipment and on different days, it would be very unusualy for a lab problem to affect all 8 reels like that. If there was a problem with the recording of the sound negatives (usually done on the same equipment), all prints would have the problem, and other theatres would complain too.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-14-2003, 02:55 PM:

Good point, John. My preamp's probably set a little low on that screen.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-14-2003, 03:04 PM:

Perhaps a RED LED/cyan dye issue or high-magenta issue? Do the trailers that sound good include an *attached* trailer (printed along with reel 1), or just the loose trailers (likely high-magenta or redeveloped silver).

--jhawk

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-15-2003, 04:11 AM:

I just watched parts of it on a white light analog system, and I have to say it sounded really good.
The trailers are not a really good comparison because they are often mixed just loud and in-your-face, without any dynamic range.
Maybe the dialog sounds weird to you because they all speak with a British accent?
More seriously, maybe your SR card has a problem.
Did you take the card from another auditorium to check?

Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 07-15-2003, 09:51 PM:

FYI,

This past weekend, I had reports from six locations of bad sound. After finding no problems at the first two, it became apparent that they were both running "Pirates" and that was the common denominator. The complaint was the same: "Sound fading". It was impossible to determine which format was causing the issue as some theaters claimed to be playing digital (which they didn't have) and other said they were in analog (although their DTS and DD were working fine). ??

So, if you are having problems with "Pirates", don't dismiss the possibility of a bad print.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-16-2003, 01:01 AM:

Thanks for the update, Trevor

quote:
Do the trailers that sound good include an *attached* trailer (printed along with reel 1), or just the loose trailers

That's what initially made me suspicious. The loose trailers I added sound normal. The two that were attached (actually printed on the front... not spliced) also had that sound... like expanders working against a signal that hadn't been compressed to begin with. That could be caused by preamps that were set way lower than they should be, but I had no issues with the sound before this print of Pirates.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-16-2003, 01:04 AM:

Jack:

Red LED readers or white exciter lamps? Evidence of redeveloped silver soundtrack (purple coloration) or indication on the leaders of High-magenta?

Also, what does running Cat 69T give you?

--jhawk

Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 07-16-2003, 04:40 AM:

John (at Kodak)
Is there a slight possibility that trying to get some 3000 or so prints out on a feature in a short amount of time might mean there are going to be problems one way or the other. I really don't understand how these prints are done, but earlier the excuse was there might have been an unexperienced trainee in the lab.
What happened to quality control in this biz. I personally think there is none. Get em out ASAP, and burn em two weeks (if that) later.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-16-2003, 08:39 AM:

Actually there is a lot of quality control but also the time frame is much shorter
As has been stated many times often the cut negative will get to the lab on a mon or tues for a print run to be ready by wed of 3000+ prints.
So the few problems that do get through the chain are small compared to the amount of quality printed material that is released.
Also not every print is printed from the same negative. The master is used to make several negs for printing pureposes as well as some for export as well so one negative could have the flaw and it will effect all prints form it

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-16-2003, 08:48 AM:

As I noted, when all the reels are affected in the same way (as seems to be in Jack's case), it's unlikely it is a printing or processing issue at the lab, since each reel is often done on different equipment and on different days. As Gordon says, considering the time constraints labs usually work under, a few dozen replacement reels out of 24,000 reels in a 3000 print release is remarkably good.