This is topic Cyan Tracks in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Bill Carter (Member # 156) on 07-17-2003, 04:51 PM:
 
Looks like it's finally happening for real...
According to a fax I just received, the September 19 release of "Anything Else" will be the first to carry a cyan dye analog soundtrack.

I wonder how many theaters haven't put in the LED readers yet?
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-17-2003, 05:26 PM:
 
I am sooooo scared. I have to run over to Fry`s and buy 30 red LED readers today. Thanks for the warning.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-17-2003, 05:37 PM:
 
We got our fax today, too... as did a few of our other members.
 

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Posted by Paul Salley (Member # 740) on 07-17-2003, 07:03 PM:
 
Here is a article related to this.

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000857
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-17-2003, 07:21 PM:
 
Until another studio steps in, I still don't believe the switch is finally here. It's been too long with too many threats of switching, then not going through.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-17-2003, 07:46 PM:
 
All it will take is the loss of a show and people will convert.
There is know requiremnt to provide a reprocessed silver sound track and all the major money making locations have converted anyway
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-17-2003, 08:59 PM:
 
We received our notice as well. For now, it looks like we will have to run it in DTS until I get the reverse scan fixed. It blew the LED, I have the new LED to solder in, and then I can remove the old exciter and re-install the reverse scan.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-17-2003, 09:11 PM:
 
I just saw the fax. Whoever wrote it hasn't worked with people who write the checks. It can be read two ways, one of which is that if you have digital sound you are fine without upgrading.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-17-2003, 10:01 PM:
 
As expected, conversion of the first release to cyan dye analog tracks wasn't too long after NATO's promised conversion date of July 3, 2003, for installing red LED readers in most of their member theatres:

http://www.dyetracks.org
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-17-2003, 11:31 PM:
 
Will the prints be dual-inventory (silver track and dye track)? If so, then I don't see much cause for concern. If it's single-inventory cyan, then there will be lots of cancelled shows and angry customers on opening night.

Obviously this isn't a problem for most of the newer theatres, but I've worked in many older houses that haven't converted (at least one of which simply can't convert...unless there's an LED kit for Western Electric Universal Bases available somewhere). This will also be "fun" for the many booths which run film only a couple of times per year or so and whose owners (who usually aren't film people) may not have gotten the news about the need to "upgrade."

I'm afraid that the people who make these decisions for the distributors are out of touch with the independent exhibitor and only seem to care about the newer "highest grossing locations." Sad.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-18-2003, 12:15 AM:
 
We'll see. From what I undestand, the big SNAFU is marketing. It might require dual inventory as Scott suggested. That market being the overseas market, where very few LED readers have been installed.
 

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Posted by Nicholas Roznovsky (Member # 861) on 07-18-2003, 12:24 AM:
 
I know that our company is now getting around to ordering the new fancy-dan red LED readers because of this.

Just goes to show, for all the fuss people make about DLP and digital sound, they can still find a way to squeeze some more $$$ out of you on your analog!
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-18-2003, 12:47 AM:
 

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Will the prints be dual-inventory (silver track and dye track)?

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According to the fax, no. It will be 100% cyan dye.

Good read, Brad. If somebody interprets that fax to mean they're ok with digital, they'd better hope it doesn't drop out!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-18-2003, 02:22 AM:
 
Yup that's the problem Jack. Hmmmm, let's see how a common conversation with the money guys who have no clue as to what they are doing in the booth would go..........

"We need to get red readers for our projectors."

"Great."

"I didn't figure you would be excited about spending the money."

"I think it's a great idea. It's a great investment."

"Ok well it's a good investment, but it's not going to be a drop in the bucket since none of your projectors have been converted yet. The money will add up."

"That's no problem. What $20, $30 a screen, right?"

"Ah, actually it could cost a few hundred a screen."

"What? Why that much and why do you want to make the light red anyway?"

"It's because the studios are starting to make cyan dye soundtracks on their prints and they can only be read with a red light reader."

"Oh yeah I know all about that."

"Ok so then so how do you want to get the ball rolling?"

"On what?"

"On converting to red light readers."

"Wouldn't that screw up the picture?"

"I'm not talking about the xenon light being red."

"Oh I know, but wouldn't a red light reader make the picture all reddish looking?"

"No it wouldn't, because I am talking about the optical soundtrack reader."

"Yeah I know what you are talking about. I have plenty of experience in the booth you don't have to dumb it down for me."

"Ok then you know the consequences if we don't upgrade?"

"Yeah I know, but if we have the projectionists keep a close eye on things it should be fine."

"It doesn't quite work like that."

"Yes it does, I've gotten through runs with bad prints before by keeping an eye on things."

"This isn't an operator issue. It's a matter of the fact that we need a red light source for the soundhead to be able to read the sound off of the film so we can have audio on these new cyan dye based prints."

"Yeah I know all about that. I've done that before."

"Done what before?"

"Made cyan prints."

(Astonished at the bullshit at this point) "Great, so then you see why we have to do this."

"Do what?"

"Why we have to have red readers, so the exciter lamp in the soundhead will be a red light source so we will have sound."

"Yeah I know how it works. Remember I'm not stupid. All we need is a red light source."

"Well yes, in order to play these new evil cyan tracks we do."

"Ok then just go down to Wal*Mart and buy some of those red colored report covers and wrap it around the bulbs."

"It doesn't quite work like that."

"Sure it does, don't tell me it doesn't, I've done it before when we got cyan prints."

"No you haven't because they have never released cyan dye prints before now."

"Yes they have, I've played a lot of them over the years at different theaters and I know it works."

"Ok whatever, this doesn't change the fact that we are going to need the red readers."

"I've got a strand of multicolored Christmas lights. Maybe we could just use the red bulbs out of that?"

"Again, it doesn't quite work that way. We have to have the real deal if we want to play these films. It's a compatibility issue."

"This sounds like an under the table scam going on with the studios and the red light reader company. I'm going to have to call the studios and have lunch with them. I'll explain things and get them to pay for them since they are the ones changing the film to red exciter lights."

"That's not going to work either. The studios aren't putting forth a penny to any theater for this. Not even the big chains are getting funding to cover this."

"Maybe they will trade red readers for movie passes."

"Who? The manufacturers?"

"No, the studio people."

"Yeah, I'm sure they would just love a free pass to see their movie opening weekend."

"Oh no I would give them VIP passes. Those aren't good for the first couple of weeks."

"Ah, even better. Yes this is definitely a good idea."

"You sound sarcastic. You don't think it will work?"

"No" (Spoken deadpan, bored and sick of wasting my time explaining by now)

"Well I'll just make sure they send us normal prints and send the cyan prints to the other theaters."

"They aren't going to be making any more of the conventional redeveloped tracks. There will not be a dual inventory."

"So we won't have any sound at all when this happens if we don't spend this money, right?"

"No, the digital will continue to play fine, just so long as it doesn't drop out to analog."

"Why would it drop out?"

"Printing defects, lab splices, lots of things could cause a dropout."

"Well this fax I got from Dreamworks says that if you have digital sound you don't need to worry about having red readers. Besides the customers don't want to hear analog sound anyway, that's why we bought the digital in the first place. This whole conversation is a waste of time. We don't need those red readers."

...and so forth and so on. This may seem funny but I swear there are people out there like this! In fact, I know of one theater in particular that I am going to have this exact conversation with. I'll bet it's damn near word for word from what's above too.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-18-2003, 02:34 AM:
 
Brad,

That was hysterical...satire at its best. You missed a calling as a sitcom writer....the scary thing is, you can almost believe this conversation really took place!

Thanks for the laughs!

Frank
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-18-2003, 03:08 AM:
 

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We'll see. From what I undestand, the big SNAFU is marketing. It might require dual inventory as Scott suggested. That market being the overseas market, where very few LED readers have been installed.

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"Dual inventory" ?
Have I got something wrong here - Is this new red track not placed, where the silver has always been ? -If so, how should it be dual ?
And second: Is it right, that the red readers has trouble with old tracks ?

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Obviously this isn't a problem for most of the newer theatres, but I've worked in many older houses that haven't converted (at least one of which simply can't convert...unless there's an LED kit for Western Electric Universal Bases available somewhere). This will also be "fun" for the many booths which run film only a couple of times per year or so and whose owners (who usually aren't film people) may not have gotten the news about the need to "upgrade."

I'm afraid that the people who make these decisions for the distributors are out of touch with the independent exhibitor and only seem to care about the newer "highest grossing locations." Sad.

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When I left the industry just over two years ago, the situation was very much as Scott describes it. The big chains had already converted, but many of the fleapits and arts centres hadn't (and I know of some which still haven't).

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I believe we have had some few trailers - sounding OK in screen two with red led, but weak in screen one with exciter lamp - correct ?

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16mm has been mentioned from time to time. I think that most 16mm machines, at least portable ones, would be difficult to fit with new sound heads, but very few 16mm prints are being made now anyway, it has become almost entirely a production format for television. I can't see a lab which has given up silver track redevelopment for 35mm being prepared to retain the facility for the very small proportion of their work which is 16mm, so it would probably be the end for new 16mm prints.

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Actually Kinoton had a one using a dichroic glass filter and a high power slide projector lamp as a cheap conversion

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It's been years since I've seen a working Western base Scott, and I can't remember what the optical head is like. Fitting a reverse scan would require a lot of engineering I think...

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AFAIK, 16mm prints will continue to have silver + dye tracks. Different (usually much slower) processing machines are usually used for 16mm, so most labs would retain the present procedures for 16mm. As you note, only a small proportion of the work is 16mm, so the environmental impact is much less than for billions of feet of 35mm print each year.

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The significant water savings, reduced use of hydroquinone and caustic sodium hydroxide, reduced process effluent, almost 100% recovery of all the silver in the film, reduced print waste/makeovers for soundtrack application problems, improved picture quality, etc. are compelling reasons to convert, especially when multiplied by over ten BILLION of feet of prints made annually.

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why would the use of dye tracks give improved picture quality?

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As discussed and reported here by many, soundtrack application splashes/bleeding often result in silver being left in the picture area, causing splotches and stains, especially along the left hand edge of the projected image.

Analog sound quality can suffer from application problems too. Bubbles or skips in the application can result in pops or noise in the analog sound. A weaving application may result in a "thumping" sound.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-18-2003, 01:57 PM:
 
Thank you for the reply John. Ive seen, and heard track problems from poor re-development, but have never seen problems from it in the picture area, perhaps I've just been lucky.

What I have seen is mannetic oxide from paste striping in the picture area, in all formats from 8 to 70mm. Fortuneatly, it can usually be removed with a solvent. I've seen a lot of poor stripe; I commented on this to somebody I knew who had told me that he used to work in a striping plant, I won't name it, it's no longer there, but he told me that the place was not air conditioned, and they had considerable problems during times of unusually high or low ambient temperature or humidity.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-18-2003, 02:53 PM:
 
For the record, here is the fax.

--jhawk


 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-18-2003, 03:09 PM:
 

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etc. are compelling reasons to convert, especially when multiplied by over ten BILLION of feet of 35mm prints made annually.

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Indeed, but why should only the manufacturing side profit from the change? If it saves a lot of costs why not share the saves with the exhibitors to make it more attractive pricewise to convert?
The environmental concerns are laudable, but to me it sounds a bit phony.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-18-2003, 03:44 PM:
 
The cost savings will probably just offset lab cost increases
The enviromental issues are very clear cut and accurate
 

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Posted by Charles Everett (Member # 889) on 07-18-2003, 03:46 PM:
 
Anything Else is the next Woody Allen movie and -- based on recent performance -- might be his last for DreamWorks. As of today Anything Else is not even mentioned on the DreamWorks website.

If Hollywood was gonna phase in cyan tracks it should have done so with one of the overhyped blockbusters that are strip-mining the industry this summer.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-18-2003, 03:48 PM:
 
Once a lab converts to print dye only they will not be keen to change back
It is probably a good first choice
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-18-2003, 04:02 PM:
 
I think it's a good idea to start on smaller films, but at the same time my biggest concern are these notices. They are simply not written sternly enough. What needs to happen is for a couple of studios to get together and decide at which point they will switch 100% over to cyan with no looking back and no double inventory, then letters need to be sent out explaining YOU HAVE TO DO THIS! No fluffy happy little pc chit chat, tell these people they have no choice unless they want to shut the theater down. THEN we can get underway with the switch without all the nonsense.

Remember John, the people who spend the money at most of these theaters don't care and don't want to read information at the dyetrack website or attend the meetings. They just want to make money. Want this switch to happen? Put it short and blunt. Remember, people in general don't want to read and research things. That's part of what I was showing in my sad but true "conversation" above.
 

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Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 07-18-2003, 04:06 PM:
 

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If it saves a lot of costs why not share the saves with the exhibitors to make it more attractive pricewise to convert?

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Will a cyan track print LOWER the film rental?

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Exactly, that is what I meant. Most likely not. They just want to dictate you buy this, buy that.
Like I said, I am in favor of red, but it is a cost factor, and haven`t exhibitors invested enough in digital?
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-18-2003, 07:41 PM:
 
nope it won't lower the rental but many other nations are looking at it as well and many countries also have a high rate of conversion to red light
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-18-2003, 07:52 PM:
 
(Rant on):

The cost of a red reader retrofit is less than (or fairly close to) what a lot of your theatres are paying for one single xenon bulb (installation notwithstanding). In my case, I can get the parts to do almost 3 screens for what I pay for one bulb.

It amazes me the amount of debate this subject continues to generate. Issues like exciter lamps blowing in the middle of shows (I've not had that happen one single time in 35 years), owners' benefits from improved sound (most of them are more deaf than their customers) really have nothing to do with all this because there have been enough owners who have made good careers out of this industry by not putting squat in their booths.

The technology of analog audio has taken a step forward. Installing it makes an already decent process an even more excellent backup for the digital systems we've invested 'tons of money in'. The very fact that these wonderful digital systems... every single one of them... DROP OUT from time to time (how often did that happen when you were all analog?) justifies keeping the SR system in top notch shape. Anything less just makes it all the more obvious when your system DOES drop into it, which everybody knows is something an audience will notice.

In the dollars of the time, upgrades to 'scope (don't forget the sprocket replacements), mag sound (how many formats?), and the extra generators, rectifiers and interlocking mechanisms required to run 3D were far more costly than what a red reader represents.

If the exhibition industry is going to whine about four or five hundred bucks, then they can kiss goodbye and we can stop debating THAT, too!

(rant off)
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-18-2003, 08:13 PM:
 
Think about it: If labs have less waste by getting rid of soundtrack redeveloper problems, the film manufacturers will actually sell LESS film than they might have if labs have to redo bad prints. Yet, all three film manufacturers support the conversion to cyan dye track. Because it's the RIGHT thing to do.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-18-2003, 08:53 PM:
 
As I said earlier, I think that some of the advocates of cyan tracks are out of touch with the realities of independent exhibition. A single-screen changeover house located a couple of hours away from the nearest theatre supplier could easily spend $2k or more on this "upgrade" for the hardware, installation, and any other changes (newer preamp cards, etc.) that might be necessary. And that number could be higher if there isn't a standard upgrade kit for that theatre's soundheads.

There's no comparison to CinemaScope here, as the cyan track change offers nothing that would benefit the exhibitors and the industry as a whole isn't exactly healthy right now, either.
 

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Posted by Jim Alexander (Member # 226) on 07-18-2003, 08:59 PM:
 
Right thing or wrong thing., I've been waiting patiently for this for a few years. As someone mentioned, this is not a new topic, and it's not like everyone has had "LOTS" of notice. It's been put back and put off way too long already. Cyan is an improved process, and whether or not is results in savings for the distributors or the processors is a moog point. It has been directed and it has improved response and is far more enviromentally friendly. Yes there is a significant cost involved, but like I said, we've all had lots of notice, so if you are not upgraded, who's to blame. As for who should pay, come on folks, this is business and there are cost involved to stay with the game. If you don't like, don't upgrade....but don't blame anyone when the shoe falls.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-18-2003, 10:11 PM:
 
Scott a Jax light or a laser is very cheap compared to the cost of the Reverse scan
I have put in lots of JaxLights and Lasers with even mono systems
There is still an improvement in seperation and witht he laser much improved high end
It basically comes downt o the fact this is the cost of doing business and there has been more than enough warning but regretably some keep advising people to put it off
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 07-18-2003, 11:04 PM:
 
It all comes down to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". No one has addressed archival use of cyan tracks. Eastman Kodak in all their wisdom has given us prints that turn beet red over a few years. What about the cyan soundtrack? How will it sound on a particular archival print in a few years? Will it fade to nothing but noise? What about scratch resistance?

Sure all the big chain theaters have endless amounts of money to spend (they just give it away, don't they?) on frivilous things, but many of the independents are on a budget and have limited technical troubleshooting capability. A lot of times those independents are the only theater for many miles. At least they can do simple things like changing an exciter lamp.
 

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Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 07-19-2003, 03:39 AM:
 
I really, really hate dragging this on, but I can't believe some of you naysayers. (hope that's correct spelling).
As stated earlier, and not just by me, this is an IMPROVEMENT!!!!!
Not only in our exhibition of films, but in the process of making these prints. I don't understand what's the big deal.
Some talk about cost, others about how long these will last.
I'm sure if HULK was cyan you'd really be concerned about running this film 10 or 20 years down the road as a "classic."
Get real guys. Our movies, in case you haven't noticed, don't last very long on screen.
My feeling is if you or your company invested in digital sound, whatever format, then you were looking to IMPROVE what you had before. This is another of those improvements.
Exciter bulbs are a thing of the past. Get used to it.
-30-
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 07-19-2003, 09:10 AM:
 
When they pry those exciter lamps from my cold dead fingers.
 

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Posted by Jim Alexander (Member # 226) on 07-19-2003, 03:57 PM:
 
Won't have too...they will be like the cross-bow.... a collectors item.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-19-2003, 04:30 PM:
 
Here are my thoughts, for what the're worth.

There has been talk of this for years, but nothing has happened yet, few peple have seen a single foot of film with a cyan track. Under the circumstances, it's not surprising that there are many places that have not converted yet.

If it is going to happen now, then this is how I think it should be done:

A definate 'cut-off' date should be published, after which all new prints will be cyan.

I don't think the two months notice being given for this release is long enough, on the other hand, the cut-off date shouldn't be too far into the future, as that would cause theatres to put off the conversion. I suggest that a date of 31st December 2003 would be suitable.

Any films released with cyan tracks before the cut-off date should have some prints made with silver tracks, and these should be made available to theatres which have not yet converted, passibly with a small surcharge to cover the additional cost involved. It should be made very clear to theatres when these prints are booked that this is a short term measure, and that silver prints will not not be made for films released after the cut-off date.

This forthcoming cyan release should be in the theatres for at least a week before any more cyan prints are made, just in case any unforeseen problems arise when they get out into the real world.

Tom thinks that the labs should not pass on cost savings; I disagree. In financial terms, the labs stand to gain more than anyone else from this, due to reduced consumption of water, energy, chemicals and print stock, and to an increase in the amount of silver they are able to recover and recycle. The cost to the labs will be almost nill. I suspect that most processors are able to bypass the re-development section, if not it is unlikely that anything more than a couple of rollers will be required. It's not as if the labs have had to make a large investment in order to bring about their cost savings.

For the theatres, things will be very different. they will have to make the greatest investment, and will see only minor benefits. Indeed, many of those that have not yet converted probably do not have the best of sound systems, and may well gain nothing at all. I believe strongly that the labs should pass on a proportion of the savings to their customers, who should, in turn, pass on some of it to the theatres. Even if they only save a dollar or so on each rental, they would be able to see some saving, which could, over the life of the new equipment, pay for its cost. I do not think that the theatres should pass on any saving in reduced ticket prices for two reasons:

The theatre-goers are not facing increased costs for which they need to be compensated

Cinema ticket prices are, in my view, too low at present.

There will be a small number of theatres for whom these changes will cause serious hardship. Those for whom the conversion costs, for some reason will be unusually high, where it could make the difference between a theatre which is just viable, and one which has to close. I don't know how many such theatres there would be, but I would guess only a fraction of one percent of the total number of screens. I would suggest that in these circumstances, where a theatre can show that real hardship will be caused, due to changes being imposed on it against its will, special provision could be made, maybe an interest-free loan could be made available, to enable them to spread the cost over a longer period. Due to the small number of theatres involved, the cost would not be geat.

Any comments?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-19-2003, 10:27 PM:
 
Jack said:

The technology of analog audio has taken a step forward. Installing it makes an already decent process an even more excellent backup for the digital systems


Jim said:

Cyan is an improved process, and whether or not is results in savings for the distributors or the processors is a moog point. It has been directed and it has improved response


Peter said:

As stated earlier, and not just by me, this is an IMPROVEMENT!!!!!


These are factually incorrect statements that cannot go unchallenged. The "improvement" you all are referring to stems from reverse scan which is sometimes (but not always) implemented as a switch from incandescent. It's not necessary to go to cyan & red LED's for reverse scan. The original "modern" reverse scan units in fact used infrared LED's which had the additional benefit of being much longer lived. When it comes down to the actual soundtrack the cyan track is technically inferior. It does not offer "improved response"--it offers worse response. That is a technical fact which even the cyan advocates will not deny--this information comes from their own white papers. The best possible analog playback comes from an applicated (conventional) track played on a reverse scan unit with IR (not red light) illumination.

Please do not continue spreading falsehoods as facts. The amount of discussion already on this topic which some of you are getting weary of means that there is no excuse for making comments which are ignorant of the facts. Go back and re-read some of Steve Guttags postings for more on the technical details before making factually incorrect statements.

Here are the issues:

Against: Technically inferior (read the white papers), requires retrofit, loss of backward compatibility, likely greater fading.

For: Eliminates tricky lab step so as to reduce waste; more silver recovery on processing; no silver disposal issues with junk film.

Note that reverse scan benefits are not listed because...well, because they come from installing reverse scan which you can have without red light or cyan tracks. Just as you can have red light without reverse scan (re: JAXlight).
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-20-2003, 01:30 AM:
 
Steve, I don't think not considering the reverse scan benefits is very fair; the reality is the two changes are part and parcel for many people...do we have any numbers, though?

I would be willing to bet that the majority of infrared lamps out there are still forward scan, so the move to red LED reverse scan would be a net improvement.

It's clear the market is not pushing very hard on the reverse scan w/ infrared option, though; it still doesn't seem to me technically difficult to design a mount that can hold red and infrared LEDs and switch them...

By the way, can someone remind us: what's the quantitative difference between red and infrared on reverse scan readers? And on forward scan, too?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-20-2003, 05:50 AM:
 
OK.

Steve has some valid points, taking his experience for granted. I don't have a problem with that.

However, given the level that I work within on an every-day basis, the conversion process does represent a noticeable improvement.

I don't have the luxury of working top-flight, large city booths any more. My union days are no doubt behind me, and the big flagship companies I once worked for are either gone, or have a much different view of how they want their booths run. I'm now an owner in a smaller community, whose theatres have projectors at least 15 years old. Many of the other booths I work around and on, at one level or another are even older.

Given this, many of the systems I have frequent contact with are running Motiograph, Simplex and Century heads with original slit lenses. A very few, like the Ballantynes I acquired with the theater I recently opened, had already had their lenses upgraded.
Fortunately, they all have (at least) dumped their phototubes... but some probably wouldn't have, if they hadn't gone stereo.

The upgraded lenses, with original exciters are producing frequencies up to 16kHz. Due to this, and the fact that we have everything on hand to maintain A-chain integrity, 3 of those 4 in my indoor house have not yet been replaced with reverse scanners. The other reason is that I'm replacing those 3 remaining Ballantyne systems with Centurys, and I don't want to change these things twice.

For the rest, again, at this level, reverse scan replacements represent not only an improvement in high frequency performance, but better stability as far as A-chain levels are concerned. I recently ran loops in a remote theatre that had not been touched since reverse scanners were installed... more than 4 years ago. The Dolby levels were nearly perfect. I doubt that would have been the case, had the theatre still been operating with exciter lamps and solar cells.

I'll take your word for it, Steve. You probably know more of the details than I do (guess I should check up on that)... but the conversion process does represent potentially improved performance (if not perfection) for theatres outside of large city circles like Seattle, where regular maintenance schedules can be infrequent at best.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-20-2003, 07:59 AM:
 
Getting back to Brad's hypothetical conversation: is it really true that digital tracks will be unaffected (i.e. the argument that just as long as you have any form of digital reproducer you don't need to worry about upgrading the analogue)? Presumably the digital optical tracks will be cyan-printed as well. So if you have an older digital reproducer which uses an incandescent exciter lamp (e.g. a Dolby Cat. 700), will that be unable to read the data from a cyan print?
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-20-2003, 08:46 AM:
 
Leo, to the best of my knowledge no digital tracks, Dolby, SDDS or CDS on conventional chromogenic colour prints have ever contained silver. The early Dolby digital readers used white light exciters, but were reading visible radiation, so no re-development of silver in the track was required.

A thought has just crossed my mind; what happens if Technicolor decide to revive imbibition printing again? IB prints have silver tracks.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2003, 08:55 AM:
 
Steve you are incorrect the frequency response of the cyan track is identicle to that of a redeveloped one
The signal to noise is slightly worse but not by what I would define as an audible amount (it is about 1.5db)
The cross mod distortion is slightly higher
The red leds in the last few years have not had the same fadeing issues since they operate on much lower current
And even at there worse they still had less output level change than most excitor lamp systems experienced.
The laser systems also offer improved hifrequency response and seperation as well
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-20-2003, 11:19 AM:
 
Ah but I didn't say "frequency response" which would mean a drop of high end relative to the rest. I said just said it "offers worse response" which is correct: You get poorer S/N across the board. The fact that proponents advocate Dolby SR to cover the poorer sound infers that it must indeed be audible and ought to have everyone scratching their head since we already are using SR on analog.

So all of you who insist on equating cyan & red light with the change to reverse scan technology when in fact they are related only in the sense of forcing change upon you by all means go ahead and upgrade to the best analog sound you will ever have and then prepare for it to drop in quality a notch when cyan comes along (although you'll still have the clean separation).
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2003, 11:48 AM:
 
Again the increase SN is so small I doubt it is a real issue Also the increased noise is not in the cyan print but is also present in any print that uses a red light reader in the same amount and is a function of monochromatic light.
Also this increased noise would only be audible when the bias lines are fully open which would only occur during a loud portion of the track anyway which the loud sound would mask as well
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-20-2003, 02:35 PM:
 
First off...noise is noise....not just when the bias lines are open...to make such a statement is to misunderstand noise theory completely...it is the same mistake that people make with digital theory.

As for audibility, 1dB is audible...it is how the damn scale was chosen...the increase in noise is closer to 2dB...just with High-Magenta tracks. Optical sound isn't so good in the noise department to begin with...every dB counts.

IR readers were not associtated with forward scan at all though some forward scan systems exploited the fact that the IR component of the white light source was the most sensistive part. Most IR systems that have been installed were in fact on reverse scan systems. The Kelmar and Component Engineering readers were developed for the IR system.

IR and visible red light sources can not be interchanged on a reverse can reader system easily. These are optical systems and the lens will have a different refractive index as one varies the wavelength of light. Whereas these lenses are nearly if not completly "simple" and we are using monochromatic (single color) light sources, the change in light source between visible and IR will result in a real focus change.

As to cyan being better or an "improvement" in and of itself...that is just factually and technically completely wrong. There may be some residual environmental improvement that has nothing to do with the techncial response of the system. The environmental impact hasn't shown itself to be significant in the global sense. The US EPA is more concerned about cow farts than silver redevelopment. Cost wise, it can't be too significant an improvement since zero cost savings are to be passed on to the exhibitors.

If environmental impact were the majority concern...then film should be discontinued in favor of more environmentally friendly media such as reusable hard drives and digital projection. However, just as I don't think DCinema is ready for prime time, neither do I think cyan should be able to force its stupid way into society either.

If you read between the lines on the propoganda of visible red LEDs you will see such bull as "high-magenta" has the cross-mod distortion equal between visible and IR/white light sources. Sounds like a good plan, right? Wrong, it should really be stated..."High-magenta degrades the soundtrack so that IR sounds worse and visible red is passable."

If there is a published test of the longevity of cyan tracks...the fastest fading color, I sure haven' seen it.

As to stability of the visible red LEDs...it is strictly up to the batch you get...some last nearly forever, some seem to fade before you put them in...and that remains true to this day.

Without exception, I haven't had to change and IR leds due to fade. Without exception, all of the visible LEDs that I've pulled in favor of IR LEDs have been quite pleased with the IR leds over the visible ones. It should be noted however, these venues run a high quantity of older films with conventional tracks as well as some of the various colored density tracks.

Steve
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-20-2003, 02:36 PM:
 
Of course since there is no decent pink noise test film available any longer who really can state what their frequency response actually is.......Its all but impossible.

There are only going to be 500 prints of this film struck....oddly isn't it a Woody Allen film....... Bet its in Mono sound too .
Mark
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2003, 03:00 PM:
 
You know the early RED LED did loose output but the ones I have installed in the last 2 or so years seem very stable and I have yet to have a Jax Light not produce enough output and have had no ACL lasers fail and only 4 out 48 ernemann lasers need replacing and in there case it was after 2 years of being on 24 hrs per day
Also there has been some debate that the cyan track may actually have better high freq response closer to BW since it exposes only one layer of the film and as such may have better resolution
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-20-2003, 04:14 PM:
 
One question about the environmental part of the issue: isn`t most of the silver regained and reused?
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2003, 04:26 PM:
 
The silver is removed and recouverd from the image area in all but the high silver style prints
The soundtrack area of a standard or a high magenta still contains silver as that is what is blocking the white light of an excitor and as such modulating the track
A cyan print will have all the silver removed
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-20-2003, 04:38 PM:
 
Can the silver be recycled from used prints?
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-20-2003, 04:45 PM:
 
The print would have to be reprocessed to bleech out the silver
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-20-2003, 05:29 PM:
 
...rather than just thrown away? So if we have all silver free prints, then we can just throw away the old prints with a better conscience? How about generally collecting and reprocessing the prints? Then the silver would not be a problem anymore. Oh, I see - that would be more expensive. So, let`s save costs on that side and simply pass on the costs to the exhibitors.
$500.000 for a really big chain to convert? No problem, they have the money. At least until one of the employees who run everything asks for $0.5 rise of pay, then unfortunately there is no money.
 

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Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 07-20-2003, 06:05 PM:
 
We asked to Dolby If the Cat 700 or 699 will be compatible with cyan track: They respond to us that theses readers are 100 % compatible with the new cyan print.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-20-2003, 10:11 PM:
 
Kodak's subsidiary FPC recycles prints, and recovers the silver:

http://www.fpchollywood.com/fscsalvage.html

But not all prints are properly recycled. Many are just burned or put into landfills, so the silver in the analog soundtrack is lost. The labs are able to recover nearly all of the silver, EXCEPT for that left in the analog soundtrack. As Gordon notes, a few releases deliberately leave some silver in the picture area by reducing the bleaching or redeveloping some picture-area silver.

As far as cyan dye fading, traditional analog soundtracks (the kind Steve Guttag prefers) DID use the cyan dye layer to absorb light (tracks were exposed to form cyan dye + magenta dye + silver). So in the years before Kodak introduced more stable cyan dyes in the early 1980's, the analog soundtracks DID fade.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-20-2003, 10:25 PM:
 
This is basically an area I know nothing about. However, I do have a strong tendency to accept the communtary that Steve Guttag wrote.

Now I wonder how DTS is going to stand up to (shall I say for lack of better words) the "new format?"
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-20-2003, 11:14 PM:
 
It doesn`t make completely sense to me not to see to it that all (or at least most) prints are collected for recycling which, silver soundtrack or not, would make much more sense than propagating a product that is "safe to throw away". Really, when I started reading this topic, I was convinced of the conversion but would have liked to spend the money for it elsewhere first. Now it looks more and more to me that exhibitors have been had once more on a grand scale. How big is the market for red LED readers that we are looking at? Or let`s just see how many screens are there in the US alone?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-21-2003, 07:34 AM:
 
John remarked:
So in the years before Kodak introduced more stable cyan dyes in the early 1980's, the analog soundtracks DID fade.

Bah. On a traditional incandescent system the bulk of the signal is coming from IR which is the major spectra of light a conventional light bulb gives off and is picked up by old photocells as well as solar cells. It is the need to modulate IR passage through the film which is the reason for silver redevelopment in the first place, the dye image alone being pretty much transparent to IR. So cyan fading in the track has very little effect on playback. Obviously that's not true of a track which consists only of cyan dye.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2003, 08:56 AM:
 
In an older cyan + magneta + silver analog soundtrack, the cyan dye did most of the modulation in the red portion of the spectrum, as its red density was much greater than the silver.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2003, 11:02 AM:
 
Paul Thompson asked:

quote:

---

Now I wonder how DTS is going to stand up to (shall I say for lack of better words) the "new format?"

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quote:

---

How much more suseptable are they to noise from dirt and debries.

The engineering practices used by the cyan-scam are reckless and embarassing. The scare tacticts used by the same group for the last 5-years are also shameful. Cyan is a bad move at this time in film's life.

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Please look in a mirror to see who is using "scare tactics".

The cyan dye layer is the MIDDLE imaging layer in color print film. Any emulsion-side projector abrasion affects the top layers first, which are the clear gelatin protective layer, and the magenta layer. Both traditional (magenta + cyan + silver) and "high magenta" (magenta + silver) use the magenta layer for to carry soundtrack information, so if anything, they would be damaged more easily (that's why emulsion scratches start out as green, as the magenta layer is abraded). Also, the gelatin in emulsion provides most of the physical strength. Usually, the more other "stuff" in there (like silver grains), the weaker the structural integrity. Generally, silver-image B&W print films have needed more post-process lubrication to improve print life and reduce emulsion shedding.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-21-2003, 09:42 PM:
 
The environmental issue seems also to be a non-starter. You could accomplish more with less overall trouble by doing more to encourage recycling. Perhaps a slitting machine to slice out the track area for silver recovery would improve the efficiency of this operation. Likewise improved laboratory processes might reduce what waste there is, again with less trouble to the industry as a whole.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-21-2003, 09:54 PM:
 
I totally agree with Steve and Steve. This is nothing more than a scam to save $ for labs and the theatres be damned...again. Worldwide!

I like Steve's idea about slitting the film to recover the silver soundtrack.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2003, 10:29 PM:
 
John,

Once again, you have not answered the question, how much testing has been done on the stability of the cyan dye track over a period of time (years). I do not employ "scare tactics" the dye track people do everytime they threatened and did not deliver on it. The dye track people show their lack of credibility every time they publish deliberately misleading information regarding cyan's performance or high-magenta's.

At the end of the day, no matter how you cut it... a conventional applicated track will have the best performance of the methods currently in use.

Phil, if you want to look at the $$$ trail...take a peek at Dolby...see what percentage of red-light sources come from them..sure there are JaxLights and Lasers out there but Dolby will enjoy a percentage of the marketplace that they probably never had with sound systems. And what's better, they have a limited life-span much shorter than a cinema processor.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2003, 10:39 PM:
 
Most of the environmental advantages come from the savings in water required to wash off the caustic soundtrack developer, which is a major portion of the water used to process prints.

As I stated before, Kodak FPC already offers print recycling programs that include silver recovery, but many prints go elsewhere and may just be burned or put into landfills. Not to mention all the NEW prints that are scrapped annually because of soundtrack application problems.

Slitting off the analog soundtrack is impractical for the billions of feet recycled annually, and you would still have to deal with handling that 0.1 inch wide strip and getting the silver out of it.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2003, 10:44 PM:
 
Nit picking a bit but the soundtrack is .2" wide and I would guess the application area (with weave) would be somewhat wider than that so lets call it 300mils wide.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2003, 10:51 PM:
 
Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:

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Nit picking a bit but the soundtrack is .2" wide and I would guess the application area (with weave) would be somewhat wider than that so lets call it 300mils wide

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Steve: You ARE nitpicking, more than a "bit". Read Standard SMPTE 40.

The analog track width is Dimension A - Dimension B

0.308 - 0.192 = 0.116 inches

SMPTE 111 (Printed Area) says the same thing.

Or am I not allowed to round? (I wrote 0.1 inches)

You're letting your emotions cloud your engineering judgements.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-21-2003, 10:59 PM:
 
I have a question for John...

How much testing has been done on the stability of the cyan dye track over a period of time?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-21-2003, 11:01 PM:
 
I also have a question for John...

How much testing has been done on the stability of the cyan dye track over a period of time?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2003, 11:06 PM:
 
John,

Nah, you are allowed to round...that was indeed my mistake, sorry about that...300mils is a bit wide.

My apologies.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-21-2003, 11:09 PM:
 
The improved stability of the cyan dye has a proven track record --- I haven't heard of any significant fading on Kodak prints made since the early 1980s. If actual cyan tracks weren't put "into the ovens" for keeping tests, it's at least likely that some of the early tests have been kept at room conditions and can be remeasured. (I was NOT one of the engineers working on the evaluation).
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-21-2003, 11:24 PM:
 
I have used all the "red" light sources in my work and they all have good and bad points.....at least there are 20 - 30% less service calls in which the exciter lamp is the problem. The money issue regarding Dolby's LED-V chip is funny...if Dolby had NO competion and sold 100,000 chips a year to all the venues in the world they would gross $5 - 6,000,000 a year....petty cash to them....licensing is their cash cow.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2003, 11:28 PM:
 
Has anyone involved with the cyan dye track done any long-term testing on its longevity? BTW...a patent search on the dye track issue turned up that the inventors of the thing acknowlege a 3-dB downgrade in performance over conventional methods. That was prior to lowering the current on LEDs and subsequent increase in the pre-preamplifier gain (with its associated noise increase).

Steve
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-21-2003, 11:48 PM:
 
John said:

quote:

---

Most of the environmental advantages come from the savings in water required to wash off the caustic soundtrack developer, which is a major portion of the water used to process prints.

---

Water - Schmater....We have oceans full of it. Everyone bitches about water shortage....but yet, nobody has taken the time to develope the technology to distill ocean water on a large scale. Hell, the evaporators on navy-issue aircraft carriers that carry crews of 6,000 each make enough fresh water which is nothing more than distilled sea water full of fish turds and other stuff.

Large distill units are not new. They have been around for more than 70 years. While I was on the Oriskany, our ship made more fresh water and liquid oxygen that we knew what to do with. Lot of it was jettisoned over the side. In the three years I was on that rusty hunk of shit, I never recall having "water hours" because of an evaporator failure or using too much of it.Our ship was an 888 footer, and we had a crew in excess of 2500 people.
 

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Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 07-22-2003, 01:48 AM:
 
It seems much, if not most, of the pressure to convert to cyan soundtracks has come from the chairman of the Cyan Dye-tracks Commitee.

Now consider the following questions.

1. Who is the chairman of the Cyan Dye-tracks Committee and which company does he work for?
2. Which companies hold patents for the combined use of cyan dyetracks and Red LEDs?
5. Which company makes approx 90% of the all Red LEDS sold and licenses the manufacture of approx 90% of all reverse scan red LED readers sold?

Anyone see a pattern emerging here?
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-22-2003, 04:34 AM:
 
I hesitated to disagree with the learned gentlemen, Steve, Brad and Joe, but I don't think the stability of cyan tracks is a major issue. If I thought otherwise I would have to disagree with another learned gentleman, John, So I guess that I'm on dangerous ground whichever way I go.

I am an ex film collector, mainly of documentary material, and also a fan of 'classic' film, most of the material that I handle, project and watch is decades old, so I might be expected to see this as more of an issue than those who handle new material, but I do not; for several reasons:

The life of a typical cinema release print is in the order of months, or at most a year or two, in this timescale the fading of the cyan dye is simply not an issue. Even if it were possible to measure any fading of the dye on this time it would be far too small to make any audible difference.

Cyan tracks are only going to be used, if anywhere, on prints. The track negatives will still be silver, and new prints can be made for any re-release without problems.

Modern print stocks do seem to be far more stable than the old ones; even clips of film I have seen hanging on a wall exposed to daylight show only slight fading after several years. The cyan dye in the track is going to be no less stable than that in the picture, it's the same dye. If the track has faded sufficiently to cause problems with the sound then the picture is going to look pretty poor anyway; maybe it's time to make a new print. Is there any point in having a good track, if the picture is unwatchable?

We are talking about an analogue sound system, it's not suddenly going to become unplayable, if the track fades the amplitude of the output will be reduced, and the noise level will rise. The former could be compensated somewhat be increasing the gain, at the expense of the latter becoming worse. I think I would tend to leave things as they were in most cases. There are, of course, cases where a pristine print of a film is not available, that applies to much of the material I see. If the content of the film is such that it is worth watching a somewhat faded, dirty print, if that is the best that is available, then a slightly noisier track is not a serious problem, certainly less serious than several metres of film at each end of each reel which is dirty, scratched and has frames missing from poor handling. The sound can be almost totally lost in noise in the worst cases. Maybe poor film handling is more of an issue than dye tracks.

Some time ago somebody asked about track formats on 16mm film, and I posted some examples; some of which were very badly faded. I tried scanning some film which was faded not quite as badly as this, but to the point where the colours had totally changed, and the film would be considered unwatchable under normal circumstances. Looking at the cyan layer there was actually considerable density still there, and I think a track with similar fading would still play, albeit with reduced quality. One of the tracks I posted a scan of had a very low density of silver, it still plays, and I doubt if a cyan track is going to fade to the extent that it has as low a density as this one.

I'm not sure about the effect of fading on Dolby material. Would there be a case for archival prints having a length of Dolby tone spliced onto the head of the first reel, before the leader, which would fade at the same rate as the rest of the print, to enable the level to be re-set when running these prints.

We hear of various problems which people have with SDDS tracks, but none that I have heard of relate to fading of these tracks, which are almost always cyan dye. I believe there have been a few silver ones on Technicolor IB prints.

I have looked at a couple of trailers which I have in my desk at the moment, they have been stored in a typical office environment, for getting on for ten years, and I can see no visible fading in that time. How much is a cyan track going to fade over 10, 20 or 50 years, and how much will that reall affect the sound quality? I suspect not very much, but on one point I do agree tith the three gentlemen, I would like to see some figures.

I do have reservations about cyan tracks, but they are mainly concerned with issues of cost and compatibility for the theatres, I don't think the stability of the dye is a major problem.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-22-2003, 06:45 AM:
 
...and furthermore, the preservation elements kept by archives as masters are likely to be original sound negatives. I presume these will continue to be silver and that it's only release printing which is going to change. So I can't see this being a big issue as far as archival preservation is concerned.
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 07-22-2003, 09:05 AM:
 
People seem to forget that some old movies are still here with us today not because a studio carefully preserved a film, but rather because some film collector preserved an ex-cinema print! Sometimes studios 'lost' negatives, master postives, track negatives, etc, or had fires that destroyed precious originals. The film collector to the rescue! Soundtrack stability is very important on a print.

Of course don't forget that studios don't or won't reprint some films and revival showings can't get anything but a beatup, faded print to show. Again another case where dye stability is important.
 

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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-22-2003, 10:26 AM:
 
Myself, I don't really care about the minor environmental savings of cyan tracks or compatibility with older prints.

This is almost like when the studios forced polyester onto the theaters: With polyester, there was no warning, and theaters suffered. Now it's the 'boy who cried wolf' and if cyan really does come out now, the theaters will suffer again - just when there's no extra money - because the studios waffled these past three years.

I would accept being forced to pay for a process that either takes more work to maintain, but performs better - or has less maintaince and performs the same. But, cyan requires more maintaince AND is not as good.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-22-2003, 11:41 AM:
 
John said "This is almost like when the studios forced polyester onto the theaters: With polyester, there was no warning, and theaters suffered."

That is incorrect Nato was the group that asked for estar prints even against the advice of the film manufactureing firms

Also I have far fewer emergancy calls in theatre wil led's than from the ones with excitors so maintance is lower in my experience
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-22-2003, 12:21 PM:
 
Stephen,

Lets takes these points one at a time, shall we? Please take this as thought provoking, not attacking.

The time scale of prints have never been considered that of a few months to a few years despite your factual statement about how long the typical print lasts. Most would consider that a print that is designed with such a short life-span would be considered defective.

As to fading, certainly today's stocks are superior to old, that I have never disputed. As to comparing an audio track fade to a picture fade, one CAN NOT equate the two. If the cyan density changes in the picture, while one can chart the change the human brain is pretty good about mentally shifting things so they appear correct. An audio reproducer would not have such benefit. While you can see a print that may look off color, pretty soon, most people stop noticing that and end up watching the film. To a lesser degree elivated constant noise will also be filtered by one's brain.

If the gain is not stable over time, you will have other issues. Dolby-SR (the only proposed system for cyan at the moment) is a level dependant compander (as is Dolby-A). If the levels and dynamics are not matched to the encoder, the playback will mistrack...simply turning up the gain will affect overall playback.

When looking at older prints that have had considerable dye fade, you have to look at two things, you have the fact the application is on there AND the magenta layer is still there. Application plus magenta = "high-magenta." Glory be, that works for all kinds of readers, albeit a bit noisier than proper cyan + magenta and application. With cyan only, you are hedging your bets on a single dye layer that must precisely interact with the narrow wavelength of the light source.

Your comments about SDDS are interesting...of the various problems associated with SDDS, one of them is actual track damage (tracks that used to play but now don't). If the cyan layer is so well protected (2nd layer and covered with the geletin) then why are those tracks being damaged? Now I will grant that the SDDS track are will come into contact with just about any film guidance system, roller or what have you and the optical track should not (though double flange pad rollers do)the scratching effects of the cyan layer are real. Furthermore, we are using collimated light...any scuff on the outer layer will create a distinct shadow that will be accurately read by a reverse scan reader. This is the chief issue I have with both IR and visible LED based readers. As to other SDDS issues, I believe density at the labs have been one of the major ones. Certainly there are other issues with the SDDS tracks.

Steve
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-22-2003, 12:26 PM:
 
There seems to be a lot of rending of garments and nashing of teeth (or is it rending of teeth and nashing of garments....I never get it right) over a 3db drop in signal to noise. Hardly a sonic catastrophy....barely audible, right? Certainly there is a much more of a dramatic loss in light throughput and apparant resolution degredation by the added magnification of the wrong-out-of-the-gate 1.85 spherical wide screen "process." Yet where is the outcry over this highly questionable practice? Discarding that much precious resolution-storing film geography just because of exhibitors' obsecession with "WIDE at any cost," surely can be put right up there on the list of bad ideas along with the 3db SN loss associated with the switch to cyan.

If we are going to rant about cyan tracks, we should be equally as vocal about cropping film geography to artificially obtain a wide screen image, which, as poor practices go, certainly out distances cyan tracks by a wide margin. I say resurrect the full frame,"soft" anamorphic lens for 1.85:1 wide screen idea. Where are you Glen Berrgren?!

Frank
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-22-2003, 01:52 PM:
 
Water, Water, Everywhere??? (and not a drop to drink???)

Several here have claimed that water conservation is not important. Tell that to the people, farmers, and industries in regions that are facing increasingly severe water shortages, including some key film production centers like Los Angeles, New York City, Mexico City, Tokyo, etc.:

California Water Policy

California Monolake Organization

Desert Sun article: Imperial Valley California Farmers Water Shortage

The Coming Water Crisis

US House Resources Committee

University of Waterloo article

World Water Council

Tokyo Water Shortage

NY Times: Bloomberg Declares Drought Emergency in NYC

NY Times article 2

Washington DC Water Shortage

BBC News
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-22-2003, 02:04 PM:
 
John I am not complaining about water conservation. Many states are experiencing shortages. The snow packs in the mountains are just simply "not enough" and the water tables are very low. Major fires are raging and I can tell you that Washington State, Montana, North Dakota, Arizona, and many other states are really going to be in deep trouble. The forests are so dry it is like buying a 2X4 from Home Depot that has been kiln dried. In the Pacific Northwest, there are tons of signs posted about fire dangers being extremely high. On the other side of the Cascade Range, it is like a desert.

I just spent a ton of money making sure my property is relatively safe from a major grass and schrub fire. Others have done the same. August is going to be a very critical time this year.

What I am complaining about is simply this..... we know there is a shortage, there has been for years. However, those "in charge" just sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. They have done exactly the same with other resources such as oil. By time it reaches critical mass, it'll be much too late to salvage the situation. The best way to create a shortage on anything is to do nothing about it...and that is what is happening.

The technology has been in place for many years....but nobody wants to improve it and make it work on a large scale. Look at the bottled water today....When Brad, Josh and I along with a bunch of other guys got some distilled water for his cooling system in his screening room, a gallon was almost as expensive as a gallon of off-the-road Diesel fuel. What is it going to be like 20 years from now?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-22-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
Paul wrote:

quote:

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The best way to create a shortage on anything is to do nothing about it...and that is what is happening.

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quote:

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When Brad, Josh and I along with a bunch of other guys got some distilled water for his cooling system in his screening room, a gallon was almost as expensive as a gallon of off-the-road Diesel fuel. What is it going to be like 20 years from now?

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quote:

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First off...water, the bulk of this planet, can hardly be considered scarce or in any way a shortage. Aside from shooting it into space, we are in a closed system.

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quote:

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The envirowackos only seem to come out when the sky is falling.

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Thank you Steve, for clarifying your position.

Fortunately, many in the movie industry feel differently, and have a sense of environmental responsibility (including many technical people who make the film, make the movies, and make the prints).

Call me "wacko" but somehow, I just don't like the taste of hydroquinone in my water, and sodium hydroxide leaves a bitter aftertaste.

Phil Hill wrote:

quote:

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By that "logic", it would seem best to convert to DLP to eliminate the labs and ALL their water usage...

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Do some research, and you'll find the electronics industry has to "clean up" their act too. Let's see, cadmium, chromium, lead, chip etchants, solvents,...
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 07-22-2003, 02:58 PM:
 
Phil's comment might sound a little sarcastic, but I think he is "right on the button."
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-22-2003, 03:15 PM:
 
There's plenty of water. The problem is, at any given time, it isn't where it's needed most, or it's not potable. Moving the water to where it's needed, and making it potable, is very non-trivial [read: costly].

I've followed this thread from the beginning. Looks like people have made up their minds and nobody's going to change their position on the issue. For me, if the labs can reduce water consumption by ~50% (and thus also presumably reduce their contaminated wastewater effluent by 50%), without significant or noticeable technical degradation to their product, that is not trivial. It would be irresponsible NOT to do it.

I know, I have no right to express an opinion on such a technically-based issue, but there, I just did anyway.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-22-2003, 03:21 PM:
 
The water issue, like the silver issue, like the print waste issue, strikes me as an after the fact justification. Prints still need to get washed. Even if cyan results in water savings I see no reason to pick on this part of the process as somehow unnecessary just to save some water when the end result is fully acknowledged by all concerned to be inferior to what we have now.

It can surprise no one that people get vocal about not wanting to trade a superior system for an inferior one...and have to pay for the privilege. And pay forever down the road in the form of a near monopoly on the light source.

BTW, I have red LED's as part of my basement reader / reverse scanners so there is no vested interest on my part to stay with silver.

[ 07-22-2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-22-2003, 03:27 PM:
 
Hey! I have an idea that will help the environment and hopefully make everybody here happy --- use 70mm prints.

They don't need soundtrack application, and there's no doubt about the superior quality.

Back to the discussion ______________________________________

Steve Kraus wrote:

quote:

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The water issue, like the silver issue, like the print waste issue, strikes me as an after the fact justification.

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Eliminating the waste of soundtrack application has been a goal of the motion picture industry for over 50 years. (Gordon mentioned early work by Technicolor to eliminate silver development from the dye transfer process). The development and wide scale use of reverse scan red LED readers has finally ENABLED the industry to consider cyan dye tracks. Reverse scan red LED readers have generally been installed on their own merits, for the many advantages they offer.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-22-2003, 03:49 PM:
 
I was going to say convert or drop the issue, I'm tired of hearing about it...but you've swayed me with the obvious benefits of 70mm. I say ALL prints by Jan 2004 need to be 70mm. For the time being we can do with 70dts and I'm sure Dolby would be happy to come along behind them and make their format work in 70 as well.

Taking this at an angle of the studios benefit (let's completely forget for a minute any earth benefits or responsibilities), approximately how much $ would be saved from each print if the industry switched to cyan tracks? Also, approximately how much actual time (minutes/hours/whatever) would be saved from each print if the labs skipped the currently necessary stages. I'd rather see some hard numbers than all of this arguing.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-22-2003, 03:51 PM:
 
I like John's suggestion about 70mm...and I'm sure so would DTS.

Oops! Wait a sec….
If 35mm w/silver uses "x" amount of H2O, and cyan uses 1/2 that, then 70mm would use the same since it's twice as wide...no wait, ...more cuz of the 5 perf frame.

BUT! Since most things like this are based on hype and $$$ for the privileged rather than quality, IT COULD WORK!

I like it!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-22-2003, 04:00 PM:
 
One other thing I've been meaning to post about this.

What brainchild came up with the idea of releasing a feature in cyan? Am I the only person who feels that if the studios really want to switch to cyan that what they should be doing is set a date for all trailers to have a complete conversion for 6 months, THEN make the full switch for features. Once cyan trailers are in the mainstream, people can play them on their white light systems for themselves and see the problem. Again, this goes back to the whole example discussion I posted a few days back. Sometimes people have to hear it to believe it, and releasing a feature out of the clear blue is just foolish in my book.

Of course if cyan tracks are as inferior as some people are pitching, then it would also give theaters 6 months to raise hell over the switch. It's a fair way to handle it. It works both ways.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-22-2003, 04:17 PM:
 

quote:

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What brainchild came up with the idea of releasing a feature in cyan?

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Since work began in the mid 1990's, the industry Dye Track Committee has met many times at ShoWest, ShowEast, and the annual ITEA Projection Seminar. NATO and ITEA have publicized the meetings. Other meetings have been held at industry gatherings worldwide. Industry technical experts and ideas are always welcome (Steve Guttag was there at ShoWest). There is a website:

http://www.dyetracks.org

and an e-mail address:

info@dyetracks.org

If you have a better way of implementing the conversion, share it.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-22-2003, 04:37 PM:
 
Hey, you can count me in on the 70mm movement! Then again, I'd argue the benefits of mag tracks and that would pose another enviro arguement. Then again, I'd "settle" for 70mm DTS...much more flexible. At least then we'd be going on about which we "prefer" rather than what is quantitatively better.

While you may feel that there is a real water issue, I do not....it is your belief (and others that feel as you do), however that is trying to force society to settle for less.

Incidentally, I don't think you are a wacko...just your environmental ideas and how they affect my life and our industry.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-22-2003, 05:27 PM:
 
My, this thread is getting long. Way back on page 4, I asked "what's the quantitative difference between red and infrared on reverse scan readers? And on forward scan, too?" I did quite a bit of digging today, and I'm not pleased with the results.

By far the best source of information seems to be the SMPTE Journal paper from Goldberg, Allen, Ricotta, & Sehlin, Red Readers, Silver, High-Magenta, and Cyan Analog Sound Tracks-Review and Status. That's available on the dyetracks.org web site as well as dolby.com.

Curiously, most of the data is available in pictorial form only, and not everything is so clear. Measurement of soundtrack reproduction is done in 3 ways: amplitude, crossmodulation cancellation, and signal-to-noise ratio (all measured in dB).

Data from Goldberg, et al
A conventional tungsten exciter lamp will see an 11dB loss in amplitude going from a silver redeveloped soundtrack to a cyan soundtrack.

A red LED reader will see 2dB less gain on a silver soundtrack than a tungsten exciter lamp.
A red LED reader will see 20dB worse crossmodulation cancellation on a silver soundtrack, versus a tungsten excitier lamp.
A red LED reader will see 8dB (on average) more noise (not SNR) on a silver soundtrack, versus a tungsten exciter.
A red LED reader will see 3dB worse crossmodulation cancellation on a hi-magenta print than a tungsten exciter lamp.

Data from Kodak
Kodak's Lab Guide claims a red LED reader will see 2dB worse SNR on a silver soundtrack than a tungsten exciter.

Data from Dolby's patent
Dolby's patent No. 5,587,749 ("Apparatus and method for reading motion picture film photographic dye soundtracks") claims a cyan-dye track with a red LED reader will see 3dB poorer "audio noise performance" than a conventional tungsten exciter.

No reverse scan data?
It's very unclear to me whether these numbers include the gains due to reverse scan or not. I really could not decide reading the various documentation. I also couldn't find any good information on the quantitative benefits that reverse scan provides. I looked for patents, and did some web searches, but came up empty-handed. Does someone have this data?

About water
I believe the issue about water has been misunderstood by some people. It is not about simply use of water. It is that the water used to wash the silver redeveloper off is contaminated with silver, and thus cannot be discharged into the environment directly, and costly cleanup measures must be taken. Even then, the water still contains environmentally harmful silver.

Trailers
Hey, Brad, I think that's a good idea. Would you please email the dye track folks and let us know what they say?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-22-2003, 05:37 PM:
 
John P,

quote:

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If you have a better way of implementing the conversion, share it.

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quote:

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The time scale of prints have never been considered that of a few months to a few years despite your factual statement about how long the typical print lasts. Most would consider that a print that is designed with such a short life-span would be considered defective.

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quote:

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As to fading, certainly today's stocks are superior to old, that I have never disputed. As to comparing an audio track fade to a picture fade, one CAN NOT equate the two. If the cyan density changes in the picture, while one can chart the change the human brain is pretty good about mentally shifting things so they appear correct. An audio reproducer would not have such benefit. While you can see a print that may look off color, pretty soon, most people stop noticing that and end up watching the film. To a lesser degree elivated constant noise will also be filtered by one's brain.

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quote:

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If the gain is not stable over time, you will have other issues. Dolby-SR (the only proposed system for cyan at the moment) is a level dependant compander (as is Dolby-A). If the levels and dynamics are not matched to the encoder, the playback will mistrack...simply turning up the gain will affect overall playback.

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quote:

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When looking at older prints that have had considerable dye fade, you have to look at two things, you have the fact the application is on there AND the magenta layer is still there. Application plus magenta = "high-magenta." Glory be, that works for all kinds of readers, albeit a bit noisier than proper cyan + magenta and application. With cyan only, you are hedging your bets on a single dye layer that must precisely interact with the narrow wavelength of the light source.

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quote:

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Your comments about SDDS are interesting...of the various problems associated with SDDS, one of them is actual track damage (tracks that used to play but now don't). If the cyan layer is so well protected (2nd layer and covered with the geletin) then why are those tracks being damaged? Now I will grant that the SDDS track are will come into contact with just about any film guidance system, roller or what have you and the optical track should not (though double flange pad rollers do)the scratching effects of the cyan layer are real. Furthermore, we are using collimated light...any scuff on the outer layer will create a distinct shadow that will be accurately read by a reverse scan reader. This is the chief issue I have with both IR and visible LED based readers. As to other SDDS issues, I believe density at the labs have been one of the major ones. Certainly there are other issues with the SDDS tracks.

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An excellent reply indeed. We seem to be in agreement on most issues with the longevity of the cyan track of chief dispute.

The chief difference in our arguements is that you feel or believe the cyan tracks will have enough life in them while I claim (see many previous posts) that the cyan-people have offered no long-term testing to back up your feelings or belief. Remember, they are proposing a new and universal soundtrack to the industry and ramming it down everyone's throats...it is up to them to prove its durability...and I don't mean with a limited test run. They are already starting in the hole on performance. Their dubious claims about the cost of applicated soundtracks have not and will not show up on the exhibitor's bottom line. If the labs were to send out a red reader to anyone that asked for it for the first year of release, then the issue of $$$ would be moot. Instead they have chosen for the exhibitor to pay for their downgrade.

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quote:

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I cannot speak to exactly what crossmod cancellation is or its relationship with reverse scan's features (better high frequency reproduction?), but I hope someone else can.

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John,

I found this paper (a pdf file)from Agfa which explains a lot about cross modulation cancellation in addition to a lot of general info about soundtracks. You may find it of interest. Look especially at pages 6 - 10. I actually think I understand what they are talking about, although I seem to get into trouble every time I try to think

Dyetrac Info and Cross Modulation Cancellation
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-23-2003, 08:22 AM:
 
Ken wrote:

quote:

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People seem to forget that some old movies are still here with us today not because a studio carefully preserved a film, but rather because some film collector preserved an ex-cinema print! Sometimes studios 'lost' negatives, master postives, track negatives, etc, or had fires that destroyed precious originals. The film collector to the rescue! Soundtrack stability is very important on a print.

Of course don't forget that studios don't or won't reprint some films and revival showings can't get anything but a beatup, faded print to show. Again another case where dye stability is important.

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Films have indeed be restored from a number of unlikely materials. Silent films copied from old Pathescope 9.5mm prints and long discarded episodes of Dr. Who where chroma from old Betamax home recordings was combined with luma from 16mm black and white kinescope recordings made for export come to mind.

If you were to be considering restoring a film from a faded release print you would have to be getting prtty desparate. I feel that this is less likely to happen in the future than it may have been in the past, for two reasons.

Firstly, most old films in the past were largely seen as being of little value, they were discarded to save vault space, or neglected, and deteriorated beyond restoration. Today there is a large market for old films on broadcast television, cable, video etc., therefore they are more likely to be seen as a potential source of future profit, and therefore looked after.

Secondly, if you were proposing to restore a film you now have many more potential sources of the track available to you, and in some cases far more copies of each. Let's say you go to the vaults, and all of the archival elements, optical and magnetic are missing or decayed. In the past the best you could hope for was probably to find an old print somewhere, probably worn, and possibly with frames missing. Today you have other options, various masters will have been made for video transfers, if you were lucky you might be able to get hold of a multi channel PCM or Dolby E master, if not you might have to settle for a consumer Dolby Digital or DTS master which would have to be decoded and then re-encoded in the required format, with some loss of quality. At worst you go out and get a NTSC DVD and take the track from that, there will have been far more of those made then there ever were film copies, and it is highly likely that at least one can be found which is still playable. Other possibilities would be to find a set of DTS CDs, or even to reproduce the digital tracks from a print.

An old print with a cyan track really would be the last possible option, and I think you would be able to find something better for a film produced today.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 08:34 AM:
 
Kodak also has an on-line tutorial about cross-modulation testing to assure optimum printing of analog soundtracks with minimum distortion:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h44/

The original concept was published in the SMPE Journal:

J. O. Baker and D. H. Robinson, "Modulated High-Frequency Recording as a Means of Determining Conditions for Optimal Processing," Jour. SMPE, 30:3-17, January 1938

And is specified by SMPTE Recommended Practice RP 104-1999, "Cross Modulation Tests for Variable-Area Photographic Sound Tracks"

The optimum density for traditional (cyan + magenta + silver) tracks was different for white light (tungsten) readers and red LED readers, meaning that a print optimized for one, would have some distortion on the other. Cross-modulation distortion may cause voice passages to contain an excessive amount of sibilant distortion. That is, many of the sibilant speech sounds (s, sh, ch, z, etc.) and some of the voiced and voiceless stop sounds (B, P, and T) will be distorted and spitty.

"High Magenta" (magenta + silver) tracks have an image spread characteristic that reduces this difference, making "high magenta" tracks more compatible with today's mix of old tungsten readers and the newer red LED readers found in most theatres.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2003, 09:18 AM:
 
Additional information for Cross-Modulation can be found in SMPTE's RP104.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2003, 09:50 AM:
 
So no one has any idea of the approximate dollar savings per print on the studio's/lab's behalf? Environmental issues aside, how much $$$?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 10:39 AM:
 
You can see how dye tracks allow the simplification and streamlining of the ECP-2D process by looking at the ECP-2D process specifications, and how labs process 70mm color prints, which do NOT need soundtrack application:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/processing/h249/index.shtml

Obviously, you eliminate the need for the viscous and caustic soundtrack developer, and the hard-to-maintain applicator wheel or extruder that has to precisely lay a narrow bead of developer on only the analog soundtrack area. If the bead is too narrow, too wide, weaves, splashes into the picture area, or has skips or bubbles, the print is wasted or compromised for quality.

You eliminate the need to wash that developer off the film, reducing processing water usage and waste water by about half.

Without soundtrack redevelopment, you also eliminate the need for the "First Fixer" and its wash. So the processing machine can have fewer tanks, racks, rollers, and associated plumbing and heat exchangers, and their maintenance. Fewer things to go wrong, fewer things to damage a print during processing.

Putting a $$$ figure on the savings will depend on the operating procedures and logistics of the particular lab.

The staffing requirements, processing speeds, operational waste, number of replacement reels, maintenance costs, chemical usage, etc. are considered confidential by most labs, and NOT shared with Kodak or industry committees. Modern film laboratories have developed proprietary technology they do not want shared with their competitors. Even when invited into labs, certain areas and data are definitely "off limits" and rightfully confidential.

Prints with soundtrack application problems have reached theatres, and have frequently been discussed here. Soundtrack silver "bleeding" into the picture area, blotches or stain in the picture area, weaving causing a "thumping" sound, bubbles and skips causing "pops", lack of any application (Scott Norwood reported one today) etc., are familiar to all, and often result in replacement reels. If each defective reel represents several hundred dollars, you can see why waste from soundtrack application is significant.
 

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Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 07-23-2003, 10:40 AM:
 
I went to John P's link to a paper on cross modulation cancellation and it is a great tutorial on the subject of cross modulation.

This gives a great deal more detail and explanation than the link I previously gave. Knowing virtually nothing about the film production end of things, I always thought that printing a soundtrack was a no-brainer. However, there is obviously FAR more to getting it right than I would have ever imagined. It is a wonder that a good analog soundtrack can sound as good as it does, considering all the technicalities involved. It also may explain why I have heard a lot of soundtracks that just don't sound worth even when I know beyond any doubt that the sound system is first class.

I am not sure I am asking the right question, but here goes. Is it not possible to make the cross modulation cancellation on cyan tracks as good as a conventional track by also adjusting the densities between soundtrack negatives and positives to the optimum point? Or is the optimum point just not as good (no matter what you do) as for a conventional track?

Or maybe a better question is this: Is the combination of a red reader and the cyan track the cause of problems related to cross modulation cancellation? I probably don't understand the physics involved, but it seems that cross mod problems are only a soundtrack printing problem and not a reading (playback) problem. So other than the fact that a red reader MUST be used for a cyan track, would another light source (if it could be used) deliver better cross mod results?

I know so little about this subject that I am not even sure if my questions have merit, but if they do, maybe someone could enlighten me a bit.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-23-2003, 10:46 AM:
 

quote:

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Putting a $$$ figure on the savings will depend on the operating procedures and logistics of the particular lab.

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quote:

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laboratories don't share this data

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If you want the data, ask the labs.

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Oh ok, makes perfect sense.

This whole situation is just ridiculous. It is documented that conventional tracks are superior to cyan and too many people are confusing "red" with "reverse scan". If cyan prints will save so much money in printing and reel replacement (see Pytlak's first post on this page), then one would expect for the labs to pass along the savings to the studios. As such, the studios should do their part by covering shipping costs or lowering percentages or something to help benefit the theaters if they are so adamant about converting for the environmental issues or for their own savings in their pocketbook.

Heck if nothing else deliver the prints on Wednesdays so theaters don't have to blow their payroll on Thursday nights as the projection staff frantically tries to throw together a bunch of prints! It just seems the studios could do something in return. It certainly isn't making better movies.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 09:48 PM:
 

quote:

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Oh ok, makes perfect sense.

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Thanks for appreciating my dilemma.

Even though there will certainly be cost savings and sales of red LED readers, I personally believe that the most important factor for most of us is to help the environment and help with water conservation.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-23-2003, 10:28 PM:
 
John, you were doing good until you edited your post and added: "I personally believe that the most important factor for most of us is to help the environment and help with water conservation."

While I am all for conservation and the enviornment, I don't feel that "most" feel like that is the most important factor.

Please do not lump me in with all the "tree-huggers".

I think in the REAL world it has to be a trade-off between sanity and insanity....

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-23-2003, 10:37 PM:
 
I'd bet one large farm converting to more efficient irrigation would more than offset all the water used by the labs. Arrange that and we can keep our high quality, nearly fadeproof soundtracks.
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-24-2003, 03:15 AM:
 
or how about not making so many prints, spreading them more thinly (only one per theater in normal circumstances), and encouraging theaters to take better care of them. less water used in making fewer prints, less waste when they're destroyed/less material to have to recover.

carl
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2003, 06:01 AM:
 
When I wrote "most of us", I meant those who favor conversion to cyan dye tracks.

Large print runs have become a "fact of life" for any major release. Encouraging theatres to take better care of prints is one of the focal points of my career, and the whole idea behind "Film Done Right".
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-24-2003, 08:52 AM:
 

quote:

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Heck if nothing else deliver the prints on Wednesdays so theaters don't have to blow their payroll on Thursday nights as the projection staff frantically tries to throw together a bunch of prints! It just seems the studios could do something in return. It certainly isn't making better movies.

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They probably think that all the people in the cinema would videotape and publish the prints on the net if they had more time

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The tracks that were offensive were normally color applicated tracks, I believe...and which ones were more offensive could not be predicted. There was one reported with a density track that was considered to be unplayable with the red reader but quite fine with the IR reader. I don't have the specifics on the color of the density track though I don't think it was a B&W.

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While I haven't heard the unplayable film myself, I have heard a wide variety of conventional films from the '80s that sounded horrible with red but pleasing with IR...the red reader exhibited XM distortion that kinda sounds like clipping in a harsh manner.

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quote:

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Large print runs have become a "fact of life" for any major release.

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do you have any information with regards to my query above about whether we are at 100% high magenta now?

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quote:

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the cross-mod distortion may only be optimized for one or the other type of reader

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John, I've also noticed that the high-magenta tracks are more translucent than the conventional cyan+magenta+redeveloper...I would think that would increase the noise and lower the overall dynamic range. Perhaps, that is another reason why high-magenta was not used when increasing the quality of the soundtrack was important.

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You know full well the driving force for "high magenta" was to make the prints more compatible with the MIX of red LED and old tungsten exciter lamp readers. Tens of thousands of theatres have installed reverse scan red LED readers for the advantages they offer (and not just cyan dye tracks), to the point that most theatres are using red readers. IR (infrared) LEDs had their chance, and did not carve out significant market share. Only "die-hards" claim 70-year old tungsten exciter lamp technology is preferable to today's reverse scan LED readers. If so, let's go back to vacuum phototubes while we're at it.

Since there is a known significant cross-modulation difference between red and tungsten readers with conventional (cyan+magenta+silver) analog tracks, maybe you would prefer that they be used and optimized for the red LED readers that are now in the significant MAJORITY of theatres? I like it. Red LED readers would have near zero cross-mod distortion with conventional tracks, while tungsten and IR readers would have sibilance. "High magenta" tracks make the best of the MIXED reader situation we find today.

BTW, one reason a few labs have not converted to "high magenta" is that they cannot get enough green light in their printers, since green filters are often inefficient.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-28-2003, 03:59 PM:
 

quote:

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It's gonna be a big hill and we may not get over it for a long, long time... video manufacturers want to revolutionize the industry..... you gotta take a piss, wind or not.

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Well said, Frank!
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 07-28-2003, 06:20 PM:
 
Tens of thousands of theaters have converted???? Sure it's not tens of hundreds?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-28-2003, 06:55 PM:
 
"Cold Dead Fingers" Ken wrote:

quote:

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Tens of thousands of theaters have converted???? Sure it's not tens of hundreds?

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In November 2001, the estimate was about 65,000 red readers installed worldwide:

http://www.dyetracks.org/reports/minutes/2001/DyeTrack.meeting.min.1101.html

That's in line with reports from Japan (60% of screens), Australia (78%), etc. reported to the industry Dye Track Committee:

http://www.dyetracks.org

Even if you dispute the reported figures, it certainly is "tens of thousands" worldwide, and a majority of first-run screens in developed countries.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Ralston (Member # 1775) on 07-29-2003, 01:32 AM:
 
Most of our projectors (I think 10 of 14) are old infrared readers. Luckily, all of those have either Dolby Digital, DTS, or SDDS. So hopefully we'll get away with not converting for a while. We just have to hope those better systems don't fault out.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-29-2003, 01:37 AM:
 
Cyan is really a secret scheme by DTS to take over the world....Before DLP does!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-31-2003, 04:50 PM:
 
John, if I sometimes think things sound a bit sibilant (I'm on red LED) is that likely the result of a conventional cyan + magenta + silver track? I remember when I put these basement readers in and after backing way, way off the HF compared to the conventional technology, setting it to what looked correct on the analyzer, I listened to a film and it still sounded sibilant and I had to back off a bit more. That was several years ago before high magenta.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-31-2003, 06:03 PM:
 
Steve Kraus asked:

quote:

---

if I sometimes think things sound a bit sibilant (I'm on red LED) is that likely the result of a conventional cyan + magenta + silver track?

---

It depends upon how your particular cyan+magenta+silver track was optimized for cross-mod distortion. If they used a tungsten reader for analyzing and optimizing the cross-mod, the print will play with lowest distortion on a tungsten reader, and will have some sibilant distortion on a red reader. If they used a red reader to set the cross-mod optimization point, the print will play best on a red reader, and be distorted on a tungsten reader.

If "high magenta" (magenta+silver) exposure was used, the cross-mod optimization point would be nearly the same for both readers.

A cyan dye track will obviously be optimized for a red LED reader. It will have very low signal on an old tungsten light reader, since there is no silver to modulate the infrared.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-31-2003, 07:30 PM:
 
I kind of wish maybe we had seperate threads for the "rhetoric" and the actual real meaty questions and answers...it's easy for stuff to get lost. Maybe someone should go back and review any outstanding questions? [like digital correction XM distortion?]

John P., I do have a question for you, about XM distortion (thanks again for the detailed link!). In reading H44, I see the Day to Day Operations section recommends an XM test should be recorded "every time a negative is made, ...[or] every 3rd or 5th roll, or perhaps only once per shift."

Does that reflect current practice?
If so, what happens to those tests? It might be nice to see them on the occasional release print leader in order to see how bad the XM distortion is on a particular reader.

I guess if I had to speculate, they print the XM test through to the first release prints, and then cut them off the dupe neg so they don't waste film on release prints?

Ah, well.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-31-2003, 07:55 PM:
 
Generally, the "sound houses" that actually record the sound negatives work closely with the labs to choose the combination of sound negative density (exposure in the recorder) and print density that gives the least distortion and best S/N on for the equipment parameters being used (sound recorder, printer, tungsten/red LED reader, film type, process). The cross-modulation test outlined by the SMPTE standard and Kodak publication is the primary tool used.

When the lab makes the prints, the primary production control for the exposure of the analog track is the print density of a control patch on the track. For a dye+silver track, an IR densitometer is used. For a cyan track, Status A red density will be used to measure the track density. A cross-mod test exposure is NOT usually included in the actual printing negative, as it would be much too long.

Here is the website of NT Audio/Video, one of the sound houses in Los Angeles:

http://www.ntaudio.com/audio_overview.html

http://www.ntaudio.com/audio_opticalsnd.html

http://www.ntaudio.com/credits.html#completed
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-01-2003, 06:34 PM:
 
I had a 'phone call at work today, just before lunch, to ask if I could do some projection work this evening; that's five hours notice, much more than I normally get. As it was at a place I haven't worked for about eighteen months, I asked if they had made any changes in that time. Only one, they have converted to red. Jaxlights, or something similar. I was expecting them to be brighter than they were.

I thought I was finally going to be able to judge these things for myself. I should have been running two films, but one print didn't turn up until 45 minutes after it was due on scren. It's a changeover house, so if it had been just a few minutes late we could have run it on 2000s, but not that late, so it was replaced by an extra screening of the other film. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had that happen before.

Film had conventional track, not high magenta, but the track wasn't very good anyway, so I'm no more knowledgable now than I was before. Perhaps they'll call me up again when they're running something with a better track.

There was quite a long gap between screenings, If I'd known before, I would have taken some samples of various types of tracks with me to try.
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 08-06-2003, 02:31 PM:
 
Wow! That's a lotta posts, and thanks to John Pytlak, I can reply without trying to answer questions, opinions and/or rants. I don't think anyone mentioned the article in the Hollywood Reporter (July 16, 2003) that came out a day before the fax went out, the fax many of you are referring to.

This project has been a discussion for many years. Extensive tests were done, theatres began converting, but like many of you said, "Is this for real?"

Yes. It is. In the Hollywood Reporter, Mark Christiansen of DreamWorks is quoted saying that, "'Anything Else' is not set for an ultra-wide run, which makes the conversion process more manageable." This is the first title to be released 100% with Cyan Dye Tracks.

This title is what this effort has needed for some time. I have personally spoken with many of the major studios representatives, both inside the Dye Track Committee meetings and outside them. There is no single studio that has expessed that it is against the move to cyan dye tracks... yet, every studio, including DreamWorks, has expressed reservations about being the "first fish in the pond," or as some have put it, the "guinea pig."

It is imperative that this release is a successful one. And DreamWorks doesn't plan on it being anything but successful.

Yes, we need more titles to make this a reality. Yes, we need theatres to stop dragging their feet and convert to red light readers. Yes, we need more studios to jump on board to make this happen. Yes, we need the information to get out. And as shown by this Forum, the information is out, and everyone is all over the map in their feelings and opinions about it.

So DreamWorks has stepped up to the plate. 'Anything Else' will come out on September 19th, 2003, which is now about six weeks away. So far, the campaign to "spread the word" has been working. Getting the information out is key because if you are a theatre that was waiting to see if this was for real, we need to give you time to recognize the reality (an actual title), and subsequently, covert to a red light reader, if you haven't already.

The word is out. The Fax, the press, the web site, the discussion... that much has worked, so far. And Brad, I guess you could read into the fax (incorrectly) that the line, "Digital playback is not affected by this process," means that if you have digital sound, you don't have to convert. I guess we should have said, "... unless your digital playback reverts to analog as your back-up track." Yeah, okay.

I'm not going to mention the environmental benefits, of which there are meany, or the cost savings to the labs, which they may or may not pass along the the studios. I'm just glad the word is out, and you all are talking about it. A successful release by DreamWorks will mean "more fish jumping into the pond." The spread of information is vital to the cause, and although we have found that, yes, there are theatres "holding out" for a real reason to convert. This title is the first real reason, and soon, there will be more.

So here's a question: How many theatre technicians does it take to screw in a red light reader? (Ha, ha)

Yours, Ted
Cyan Dye Track Evangelist

Can I get an "Amen!"
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-06-2003, 02:53 PM:
 

quote:

---

How many theatre technicians does it take to screw in a red light reader?

---

Ah, a trick question. NONE! If it was as easy as screwing in a red light reader then no one would have bothered to upgrade and the projectionists could just do it whenever a cyan print comes along.

Regarding my interpretation of the fax, I think you misunderstood me. I know exactly what you are trying to say, but so many of the theaters that have not converted yet will end up reading it in that manner. Wording is crucial if cyan tracks are to go 100%. There's too many stupid people out there making purchasing decisions for theaters.

Now when will we see trailers in cyan? If nobody wants to be the first fish in the pond, why, why, why is Dreamworks releasing a feature before trailers? Use the good old fashioned scare tactic. Start releasing trailers for 3 months in MUL format with cyan tracks, then start releasing trailers for the next 3 months with no digital tracks and force theaters to experience the awesomeness of cyan on a white light reader first-hand. If the studios want the conversion to be made, but don't want dark screens because of a lack of dual inventory and misinformed or stupid people, trailers are the only sensible way to approach this.
 

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Posted by Steve Anderson (Member # 364) on 08-07-2003, 04:10 PM:
 
I was on the phone with our local tech and he has been on the road for the last three weeks just doing conversions for the cyan tracks. A lot of small houses out there still run analog only. Our small house just has the Kelmar reverse scan.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-09-2003, 05:39 AM:
 
OK, Ted said: "It is imperative that this release is a successful one." So what makes it successful and more importantly, what happens if it isn't? Seems that exhibition has a pretty powerful hand of cards here. Suppose a big chunk of theatres simply say, "you know what, if you can't give us a film that will play on our projectors, we simply won't play it. Can a studio afford to loose the 20% of their potential net on a release? And suppose a big chain were to say, "If you can;t give us standard prints, we won't even play it on ANY of our screens." Naturally, I don't think this would happen, especially since theatre owners haven't been put up any resistance so far to installing the red scanners. But just theoretically, would it be fair to say that if this 100% cyan print inventory doesn't work out as a positive trial, will that slow the rest of the studios from jumping in the water?

Is this going to be a really big title? If it is something every exhibitor will want in every cinema he owns, then if they have to do the install to run it, they might grumble, but they will do it. But a smaller film might not be the one to start with if it is imperative that it be successful.

Frank
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 08-11-2003, 07:22 PM:
 
Success = lots of $$ at the box office.

Frank, actually, a successful venture in the field of new technology means, 1) That it plays and there are no lost shows, and 2) That the general public has no idea a transition took place. The fate of this film, in technological terms, will undoubtedly influence the other studios as to how many future cyan dye track releases there are in the next year.

There is a new press release on the www.dyetracks.org web site right now. As many of you mentioned, there was a mass-fax sent to many theatres on July 17th. The Hollywood Reporter had it's Technology section devoted to this story on July 16th. The DreamWorks Bookers are spreading the word as they speak with theatres. The Film-Tech web site has active discussions on this topic. The word is out.

So to answer your question, Frank. Success is measured by the number of voicemails on a Monday morning... and come Monday September 22nd, I'm hoping my voicemail is silent, and that the only things DreamWorks has to worry about, is how much $$ they are making at the box office.

Yours, Ted
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-11-2003, 09:05 PM:
 
You're a good boy, Teddy -- Mrs. Dolby

Do you think the Vegas oddsmakers will take bets as to whether any silver track prints are used in this release (even if brought in from elsewhere)?
 

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Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 08-11-2003, 10:12 PM:
 
Oh Well!! We are still waiting to have our remaining three exciters (like the one behind me) replaced. I hope the folks at National Amusements know we still have them here.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-13-2003, 02:01 PM:
 
A few weeks ago, over in the Kinoton FP38 Experiences thread, John P. mentioned Jess Daily's evaluation of older prints and red LED readers at UCLA. I followed up asking if it had been published, and resolved to contact Jess myself.

I did so, and today I got a copy of the CD with the comparison tests in the mail (there is no written report to-date). Jess has given me permission to reproduce them, so I've put them up on the web. I haven't had a chance to listen myself really, nor to do any interesting comparisions, nor package up the data in a way that's likely useful to most people.

Nonetheless, here you can find .WAV files of the 6 tracks, as well as a scan of the artwork of the disc.

I expect I'll organize it a bit better later on, but I thought some people might appreciate early access to it now.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-13-2003, 02:08 PM:
 
I note that Jess Daily was very objective and even-handed in his evaluation. He even used Fuji CD-R media:

http://web.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/jhawk/cyan/artwork.png
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 08-18-2003, 02:06 PM:
 
If this question has been answered, forgive me. Is there any other Cyan sound track films on the release schedule yet besides the Woody Allen film?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-18-2003, 04:12 PM:
 
Keep an eye on the http://www.dyetracks.org website for the latest updates.
 

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Posted by Travis Hubrig (Member # 1745) on 02-16-2004, 06:01 PM:
 
John,

Do you have any more links on this?

It doesn't seem up-to-date...
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-16-2004, 07:53 PM:
 
I don't maintain that website. In January at the ITEA Seminar meeting, I heard more cyan dye track releases should be on their way soon. Likely much more will be announced at the Cyan Dye Track committee meeting at ShoWest.

The issue has been how to handle cyan dye track prints being recycled to underdeveloped countries that may still have very few red LED readers. They will not play properly on tungsten (white) light readers, and red LED readers may not be available or even installable. There is also an awareness issue. The committee (especially distributors and reader manufacturers) is looking at a communication plan to get more red LED readers installed.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-17-2004, 08:20 AM:
 
As others have mentioned, any sort of wide-scale use of dye tracks really should start with trailers, not features. The consequences of having a trailer with an unplayable track are minimal (the trailer doesn't get shown), while the consequences of having a feature with an unplayable track are great (the feature doesn't get shown, the theatre gives out refunds, and customers become unhappy).

Not everyone is using equipment for which an upgrade kit is available and many of us who would like to experiment with that equipment don't have access to sample film with a dye track. Unless dye-track trailers or test films are made available, there will be no way to tell for sure that any homebrew system will work.

Having dye-track trailers in circulation for a year or so before wide-scale introduction of dye tracks on features will help to ease the transition and reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of a theatre ending up with an unplayable print.

I tend to agree with those who think that this is a bad idea, partly because I trust Steve G. and others who say that the sound quality isn't as good as with silver tracks, and partly because I see lots of exciters in use which work just fine, often in theatres where an LED conversion would be a financial hardship. I have great respect for the technical work that was done on dye tracks, but I think that those who are involved with the implementation may be out of touch with the realities that independent exhibitors face.
 

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Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 02-17-2004, 12:16 PM:
 
Good points, Scott.

But I bet that trailers will be the LAST domino to fall in the chain. I often get the impression that the distribs care more about how trailers are presented than they do about the features.

(Recall a few years ago there was a move afoot to standardize the volume level on trailers so they wouldn't play too loud? Well they sure nipped that one in the bud .)
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 02-17-2004, 06:24 PM:
 
Peter,

You are probably correct about trailers being the last to go cyan. The point is to make a smooth industry switch. Trailers would not help. Theatres won't convert for a cyan trailer. And for features...

By the way Peter, TASA has been going quite will since June of 1999 when the Trailer Audio Standards Association became the law. The MPAA has been enforcing an upper volume (average) limit since then. It started at 87 dB in 1999, and has moved to 86 dB, and currently it is at 85 dB. It was not nipped in the bud, it bloomed into a success that won a Technical Achievement Academy Award to two fellows from Dolby, and a very nice chap from Disney. And TASA started because of the effect loud trailers had on features. Everyone wants their trailer to play well, nobody goes to see trailers (yes, rare exceptions to this rule there are), they pay for the features.

To everyone else, NATO estimates that 85% of their screens are red-light ready. Word on the street says that the US is about 65% red-light ready. Without product it will never get any higher than that.

I am hoping you'll be hearing several announcements, did I say "several", why yes I did, from the studios, by ShoWest, regarding the move to Cyan for analog soundtracks. And if you check the website you won't see anything yet... soon... so keep your fingers crossed.

Give me cyan, or give me death.

Can I get an "Amen", Ted
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-17-2004, 07:04 PM:
 
Gee Ted...given those two choices...

Steve
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-17-2004, 07:49 PM:
 
Yeah no kidding. What a thing to give one's life for! I can't see dying for less than 70mm mag or at least 35mm fullcoat.
 

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Posted by Timothy Eiler (Member # 383) on 02-17-2004, 08:19 PM:
 

quote:

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posted 07-05-2000 06:48 AM What is the schedule for conversion to dye tracks?
The conversion to the interim High Magenta format is already under way, with all new theaters built in the last 3-4 years equipped with red readers. Retrofitting of red readers to projectors in existing theaters is proceeding steadily. Some laboratories are now making release prints in the High Magenta format, including all releases from Warner Bros and all prints made by Fotokem laboratory. When the proportion of red readers reaches about 85% (estimated in 2001 in the US) it is lilkely that the laboratories will announce their intention to switch their production to Cyan Dye tracks.

---

quote:

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To everyone else, NATO estimates that 85% of their screens are red-light ready. Word on the street says that the US is about 65% red-light ready

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quote:

---

The issue has been how to handle cyan dye track prints being recycled to underdeveloped countries that may still have very few red LED readers. They will not play properly on tungsten (white) light readers, and red LED readers may not be available or even installable.

---

quote:

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The committee (especially distributors and reader manufacturers) is looking at a communication plan to get more red LED readers installed

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quote:

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The committee (especially distributors and reader manufacturers) is looking at a communication plan to get more red LED readers installed

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• We couldn't introduce unleaded petrol because there are still cars out there that won't run on it?
• We couldn't introduce a digital cellphone network because there are lots of people out there who bought an analogue phone and they'd have had to change over?
• We couldn't make anamorphic features from the 50's on because not all theatres had the right lenses ?

quote:

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it's the water, the processing chemicals, the reprints (most labs will tell you that the applicator problems are their biggest single cause of reprints because it's such a pig of a process)

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quote:

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that is a saving that will affect the viability of a lab's pricing structure

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quote:

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Troubleshooting Guide
Use the following outline as a troubleshooting guide for
sound track control:
Stripe Too Wide
Contamination of the picture area must be avoided.
1. Check the application/film gap. It may be too narrow.
2. Check whether the squeegees before the developer
applicator are adequately drying the film.
3. Check the developer viscosity. It may be too low.
4. Remix the developer. The hexylene glycol level may
be too high.
Stripe Too Narrow
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise.
1. Check the applicator/film gap. It may be too wide.
2. Check the applicator wheel for grease and dirt.
Remove grease with a solvent.
3. Check the developer viscosity. It may be too high.
4. Remix the developer. The hexylene glycol level may
be too low.
Stripe Varies in Width Systematically
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise. A certain amount of width variability is normal
with density changes. Check:
1. The backup roller and applicator wheel for dirt.
2. The applicator gap.
3. For damage to the backup roller or applicator wheel
shafts or bearing (if the problem is severe). If the
bearings are replaced, the applicator wheel may need
to be reground to obtain concentricity on the new
bearings.
Stripe Weaves
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise. Check:
1. The guide rollers for dirt.
2. Alignment of guide rollers.
Stripe Erratic or “Blippy”
This condition can cause sound distortion, improper volume,
and noise.
1. Check the applicator gap. The solution bead should be
neither squashed nor stretched.
2. Determine if the film is sufficiently dry prior to sound
track developer application. Also, check temperature
of air in sound track venturi squeegee.
3. Check the applicator for dirt.
4. Examine the film drive through the applicator to see if
it is free of vibrations and hesitations. Also, check the
performance of the inertia roller bearings.
5. Check for particles in the sound developer.
6. Check for viscosity of the developer.
7. Check whether an adequate level of developer is being
maintained in the tray.
8. Remix the sound track developer, since hexylene
glycol level may be too low.
Dark Streaks, Flutter, or Spots in the Picture Area
1. Examine the negative original for defects or dirt.
2. Inspect the wash box for faulty operation.
3. Check squeegee before sound track developer to be
sure it is properly drying the film surface.

---

quote:

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When Kodak removed the backing layer from print film(also a positive in terms of environmental concern and simplifying the process) was this dumbing down? No it was making improvements to the system. So's this one

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quote:

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The cost of conversion is a "once only" cost.

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quote:

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Not to put down Atlab but they are not one of the big lab players

---

quote:

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Reverse scan red led readers have proven their advantages in over a decade of successful use in tens of thousands of theatres.

---

quote:

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general presentation quality will be improved with cyan tracks

---

Well, as I have said in the past John, the jury is still out on the long term effects of these tracks. However, from the point of view of someone who had to get the first reel of Moulin Rouge replaced because of a popping noise, I certainly hope you are right. I hope the quality of prints being produced by the labs will improve for the exhibitor, after all, so far, it looks as if it is THEY, who are bank rolling the cost.

Your very impressive trouble shooting quide list of "added complexity" and no doubt considerable expense, which by inference will be avoided with cyan tracks, certainly adds weight to discounts being provided for customers who receive prints from labs with cyan tracks.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-19-2004, 08:32 AM:
 
IB prints... it's not coming back - I think Technicolor proved that a couple of years ago.

Don't laugh but it is hypothetically feasible to create prints via dye transfer married to something akin to a xerographic or ink jet technology. Dye units would have to be almost on the molecular level to get the resolution required but I think this is doable. Whether any of the giants of imaging would want to put money into developing (no pun) this technology to the point where it can be done at hundreds of feet per minute is another matter. But the rewards would be vast since the technology would apply to other areas of imaging as well. Analog sound could be done with a black component which would have good IR absorption capability.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 02-19-2004, 02:17 PM:
 
Thanks for the link to the processing manual. It is very interesting to read. There is so much to be learned!
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 02-19-2004, 09:17 PM:
 

quote:

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Not to put down atlab but they are not one of the big lab players in release printing on the worldwide scale

---

Hello Gordon! Maybe not, but we frequently print orders in excess of 1000 copies, and supply markets across Australia, New Zealand, Japan and most of SE Asia. We are based in Sydney but also have labs in Melbourne, in Queensland and in New Zealand.

There is no Atlab in India. Perhaps you are thinking of Adlabs. However you are mistaken about the volume of print orders in India. Typically they do small print runs, all off the original negative, and a staggered release through the country (just as was suggested in this very thread - like the old days!) It's well described in this report
www.businessworldindia.com/Nov1003/indepth04.asp
and a typical print run is not 2000+ but 200.

Meanwhile, Warren'a argument about print costs is quite spurious. Our customer is not the theatre, but the studio/distributor. The printing business is very competitive and prices are pared to the bone. When the distributors indicate that they are ready to order cyan track prints, it's just possible that they will bring that into the next round of contract negotiations. There's no way that this translates into a windfall for the labs.
 

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Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 02-20-2004, 01:27 AM:
 

quote:

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Warren's argument about print costs is quite spurious, our customer is not the theatre, but the studio/distributor.

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quote:

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When the distributors indicate they are ready to order cyan track prints, it's just possible that they will bring that into the next round of contract negotiations

---

Do I sense a degree of acceptance that the savings at the labs may be the subject of negotiation to be passed on, or is that a spurious assumption?

Some of my friends who are independent distributors as well as being EXHIBITORS will be pleased to hear that.

quote:

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there's no way this translates into a windfall for the labs

---

quote:

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When Kodak removed the backing layer from print film (also a positive in terms of environmental concerns, and also simplifying the process) was that "dumbing down?.

---

quote:

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when the price of crude oil comes down we get a reduction at the petrol pumps even though motorists never come into contact with the suppliers.

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quote:

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What is the actual cost savings per foot (or per print, etc.) of a dye-track print versus a silver-track print?

---

What makes you think I'm about to tell you that .

Seriously, it's not as simple as that. Lab margins are very small (as I mentioned, it's a competitive business). A reduction in wastage rate of -say -1 per cent translates into a significant improvement in the margin, but obviously has a very small impact on the cost of a print. Don't expect much to be passed on!

quote:

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Dominic...lets see....
First off...the BIG LIE......Red readers are NOT a one-time cost

---

quote:

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Don't laugh but it is hypothetically feasible to create prints via dye transfer married to something akin to a xerographic or ink jet technology.

---

Well, Steve, I'm laughing. Who would pay for the development of this technology (dye jets at a molecular level I think you said), in order to support the retention of a sound system that has already been superceded in between 70 and 80 per cent of theatres in the USA (and more in some other countries?)
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 02-22-2004, 11:20 PM:
 
Of course not just for the retention of silver tracks! I was responding to the comment that dye transfer is gone and never coming back. And yes, to have the necessary resolution the dye particles would need to be akin to the amount of dye you presently get when a color coupler molecule is activated by the developer oxidation product or however that works. Far fetched of course but not impossible. Basically it would be a ultra high rez film recorder cranking out prints from any source material that need no further processing, and, depending on the dyes, could have the quality and permanence we associate with IB. Given what can be done in microelectronics I don't doubt that a printing "head" of some sort could be created but whether it's feasible and whether such a machine could ever achieve competitive speeds I don't know.

Steve, unless I am misremembering there is one supply in that box for the analog LED and the analog pre-preamp and another separate switcher for the digital LED. I'm turning off the latter manually when not in use but if I drop the 120 to the former it's going to kill the preamp power and a mistake easily made with turning on or off a motor while the machine is live could destroy speakers.
 

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Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 02-23-2004, 06:10 AM:
 
Welcome back Dominic

quote:

---

if or when there is any change to the release print prices to the distributors, then the theatres should go to the distributors to get the savings passed on

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quote:

---

I don't mean to pick on Dominic or John here. They've both been kind enough to contribute to this thread and deserve substantial credit for that alone, even though the issue isn't exactly popular here.

---

I think you have made a very good point that's certainly worth repeating Scott. The fact is, they both have to walk a difficult PR tight rope. The whole subject of cyan is very complex. It not only involves technical and financial issues but in some territories, legal as well.

Without admitting liability, Dominic has gone about as far as he dare in acceptance of the principals that
1 There may be cost savings in the production of prints with cyan tracks.
2. That any savings should be passed on through the distributor to the exhibitor.

For those who may think I've been a little hard on Dominic, let me repeat that he is an honourable man and I have very good reason to believe he also has a sense of humour.

In closing, because I think I have made my point, let me tell you a little story about an oil company, seeing you enjoy petrol comparisons Dominic. A major oil company decided to use a different additive in their petrol a few months ago. The additive was technically fine, the only problem was, that a very small percentage of cars ( much less than 20% I would think) ran very rough. The engines coughed and spluttered so much, that owners took them to be serviced and suffered costs and inconvenience. I repeat there was nothing wrong with the petrol except that it had an incompatability problem with a very small percentage of vehicles. The result was that the OIL COMPANY had to pay out significant compensation to the owners of the affected cars. You see, we have a piece of legislation called the Goods and Services Act over here which regulates the marketable quality of goods. Where did we get our consumer law from? - Australia. Clever blokes those Aussies.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-23-2004, 02:11 PM:
 
Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:

---

...there is the perceived environmental benefit...only helps the long-term viability of film as a release medium.

---

By George, you've got it!

The motion-picture business is a worldwide business, and things like hydroquinone, water usage, and the silver in film that is put into landfills ARE regulated in many countries. Eliminating a complex processing step that wastes about half the water used in film processing would be a very welcome environmental improvement in areas where water use is restricted during drought, like Southern California.

It is about the long-term viability of film as a release medium. From the discussion here, the cost/benefit analysis comparing red LED analog readers and tungsten lamp readers generally seems favorable to red LEDs, even for dye+silver tracks.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2004, 08:31 AM:
 
"Eliminating a complex processing step that wastes about half the water used in film processing would be a very welcome environmental improvement in areas where water use is restricted during drought, like Southern California."
_________________________________________________________________

Then all the labs need to do is relocate to either Lake Powell, or Lake Mead. No worry about enough water near those places .

Mark
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-24-2004, 09:52 AM:
 
Mark wrote:

quote:

---

Then all the labs need to do is relocate to either Lake Powell, or Lake Mead. No worry about enough water near those places

---

quote:

---

The western half of the United States has received far less rain and snow in the past several years than normal. This sustained drought has caused many changes easily detected by NASA’s Earth-observation satellites: dramatic decreases in soil moisture, shrinking snow pack in the Rockies, withering vegetation, more frequent and severe forest fires, and falling water levels in major reservoirs throughout the West.

---

quote:

---

Continuing drought throughout the western United States has depleted river flows and dried up reservoirs in many areas served by Bureau of Reclamation projects. Although water continues to be delivered in most areas, the storage levels in many Reclamation reservoirs are significantly below average.

---

 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2004, 06:20 PM:
 
Red LED vs. White Light Cost... The true version.....

Getting back to the LED vs. White Light debate we actually sell RED LED's for WELL under 100.00 each. I have to replace two tommrrow that have bad segments so I went ahead and checked on the price while I was at it.( I don't do the billing I only repair stuff!) Dealer net on the RED LED is not too much higher than some of the list pricing on the Italian Exciter lamps. That 9% or what ever it was increase mentioned on this thread can hardly be felt..........

This definately puts RED LED's in the cheaper than white light catagory over a 5 year period.


Mark @ CLACO

Mark
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 02-24-2004, 09:08 PM:
 
There was an episode of Deep Sea Detectives where they went to the bottom of Lake Mead to check out a B29 bomber. It was pretty cool.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2004, 10:13 PM:
 
Geez, Lake Mead is about 1000 plus feet deep in alot of places!! The plane must have been alot shallower than that.

Mark
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 02-24-2004, 10:18 PM:
 
I think it is at about 180ft. The most I have seen those guys dive to is 250ft using tri-mix.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-25-2004, 04:39 PM:
 
Even with tri mix bottom time would be pretty limited. Its p[robably in pretty good shape sitting at that depth. Unless it broke up why not raise it?
Mark
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 02-26-2004, 05:04 PM:
 
So, where are they? Where are the cyan track prints? Is there a problem with getting studios and producers to take that big step to be the first major release with a cyan track? Were there some problems with the recent limited release that were not talked about? Are there still too many white exciters out there? What happened to the printer(s) that was (were) modified to do cyan tracks? Was it modified back to "normal", or can it be converted back and forth easily?

I agree with some of the people here who believe that a "test" film should be sent to theaters first. How about a quick film giving the theater information about cyan tracks, and having different types of audio (dialog, music, etc.) on it; something like the Buzz and Bill show that DTS put out. Some test tones would be nice too. To just send out cyan prints to theaters, basically saying we're going to do what we want, and you (the theaters) are just going to have to deal with it, is not a good way to get cooperation from the theaters. If the theaters knew they were ready, they might feel better about possibly receiving a cyan track print, and this could translate to the studios and producers OKing a cyan track release. It seams that this thing has happened behind closed doors, whitout much input from the theaters.
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 02-26-2004, 05:57 PM:
 
Sorta smells to me like the big push some years ago about the revolutionary shipping methods Warners Bro's was going to change to. Prints already put together, you guys all need to run out and order this $100 flange to handle it. It's coming, it's coming. Yeah right where is it? I spent the $100.00 and never seen the first lousy print to use it.
Think I can back charge Warner Bro's for the wasted cash?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 02-26-2004, 07:28 PM:
 
By all accounts, the Dreamworks release of the Woody Allen picture "Anything Else" with cyan dye analog tracks on all the release prints went very well.

The issue right now is what to do about countries that receive prints recycled from the US and Canada. Some less developed countries may have a low percentage of theatres equipped with red LED readers, and silver+dye tracks will still be needed for them during the transition to cyan dye only.

The Cyan Dye Track committee has held many open meetings at ShoWest, ShowEast and the ITEA projection seminar, and exhibitors have attended. NATO has been very active in communicating its support via articles in "In Focus" and "NATO On-Line".

http://www.dyetracks.org
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 03-03-2004, 03:05 PM:
 
Please do not compare the Cyan efforts to that of ELR's (Extended Length Reels). Just because it is a change that must be accepted by both Exhibition and Distribution, on a company by company basis, so as not to pose a conflict of interest, doesn't mean they are equal, by any means.

The move to cyan benefits the enviornment. It is a lateral move for analog sound quality, and a upwards move for image quiality. Without the application process, by Dolby's statistics, 11% of all reels checked for quality in the past year had been downgraded or rejected for application splash. Also, the digital tracks are not affected what-so-ever.

ELRs failed because they posed more negative issues related to shipping and quality than their one perceived benefit: a splice/change-over every 6000 feet instead of every 2000.

Cyan is happenning. ELRs ain't.

Warren S. said, "The distinct difference with cyan tracks is that the cost is not carried by the processing and manufacturing industry but being passed on to a sector which gains no advantage."

Who doesn't gain from a better looking print and enviornmental improvements...? Yes, exhibition does benefit here. Without water, we'd have no popcorn. But seriously. In the case of Cyan for analog tracks, the pros far outweigh the cons. I won't repeat them out of respect for John P..

Now let's talk money. By the way, that is my middle name... No, actually, the whole money thread is kind of funny. So if Brad Pitt takes less than his usual millions for his next picture, the studios should pass that savings on to the exhibitor. The way I look at it, all those variables are up to those negotiating the deals in the first place. To say that the lab will save $X by printing cyan analog tracks, and that they should pass the savings on to the Studio, who in turn should pass the savings on to the Exhibitor, who should pass it on to the patron... heck, with cyan and D-Cinema's cost savings, movies will be for free. If we wanted to make this effort a money issue, we would be pushing for cyan digital tracks as well. The lab could really save money there, but there is no environmental benefit to doing that, or quality benefit either. So that, being strictly a money issue, will be left to those that negotiate those deals. So unless exhibition can get Brad Pitt to start "giving back," let's just be happy we're saving some water and making the movie going experience a little bit better.

GET ME BRAD PITT ON THE PHONE!

Yours, Ted
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 03-03-2004, 04:50 PM:
 
Ted, how would cyan digital tracks save money? I was under the impression that they are just color dyes, which are there on the film anyway. Isn't SDDS cyan now?
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-03-2004, 05:15 PM:
 

quote:

---

Ted, how would cyan digital tracks save money? I was under the impression that they are just color dyes, which are there on the film anyway. Isn't SDDS cyan now?

---

Correct. Both SDDS and SRD tracks work by visible light, using receptors that are not sensitive to infra-red. Silver redevelopment of analogue soundtracks started with Eastmancolor prints in the 1950s, effectively to retain compatibility with projectors that worked with black and white prints and with Technicolor dye transfer prints. Digital sound systems had no need for this backward compatibility (except the ill-fated CDS system ) so they've worked with dyes all along.

I'm just amazed that after about 5 years of this project (that I can remember, it may have been more) we still have fears about theatres "just being sent a cyan print", about "behind closed doors" and worries about what might happen in the deep dark recesses of "less-developed" countries (shouldn't that be "more re-developed" countries, John? ).

The issue now isn't so much that a few theatres still have to go out and upgrade their equipment, it's that most theatres already have done so, and are waiting to see why they had to do it.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-03-2004, 05:49 PM:
 
Color prints have an 11% defect rate?!?! Wow! Is there any other industry that has a defect rate that is even close to that? This has certainly been an educational thread. Many thanks to John, Dominic, and Ted for participating. I wish we had someone from Technicolor Hollywood and/or Deluxe Hollywood to comment here, too.

In any case it will be interesting to see when and how (or if) the dye-track "changeover" happens. Of the theatres where I work most often, one will not need to do anything (they opened in '98 with red LED readers), one will need to convert their SH-1000s, and one will be pretty much screwed unless someone makes a conversion kit for Western Electric Universal Bases (most likely they will end up with a half-assed homebrew conversion that sounds bad). And I still worry about reprints of older titles whose soundtrack negatives were recorded with silver track prints in mind.
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-03-2004, 06:14 PM:
 

quote:

---

Color prints have an 11% defect rate?!?! Wow!

---

Not sure where that figure came from. (Ted?) Applicator problems are certainly a major cause for rejects, but I don't think a lab would survive for long at that sort of overall reprint rate.

The time delay in replacing defective reels is as significant a problem as the actual replacement cost itself. You guys all know how late you get prints. If there's an applicator problem on a machine, then it will affect a whole run of -say- reel 3's. So that's a whole batch of incomplete copies, out of all proportion to the actual reject amount. Half a day saved there would surely be welcome (that is, if the distributor passed it on to the theatre ).
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-03-2004, 06:54 PM:
 
The major reason I've seen out here relating to defective reels/prints has been because of defective digital tracks. Mainly SRD and DTS, rarely does a bad SDDS track get through.... probably more a testimony to the SDDS redundency than anything else.

Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-03-2004, 07:09 PM:
 
I believe Ted (Dolby's Director of Distributor Services) is referring to the number of reels rejected for use, or downgraded, by their sample checking of release prints. I don't believe he's claiming that 11% are rejected by the labs, it's 11% that the labs are letting through.

In my experience, I'd have to agree with the 11% rejection or downgrade rate based on the crap I've seen come from some of the labs.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-03-2004, 07:17 PM:
 
Whether or not the bad reels find their way into distribution, any error in soundtrack application that affects the image or sound quality still qualifies as a "defect" in my mind.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-03-2004, 07:33 PM:
 
I agree, but you've seen the crap deluxe sends out. Defective reels are shipped.

Dominic had said that any lab that reprinted 11% of their reels would go out of business. Obviously the major labs are letting through about 11% of the reels they shouldn't (instead of reprinting them). Now we all know their secret to success.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-03-2004, 09:14 PM:
 
Sorry, the alledged environmental benefits are insignificant as the cost improvement for the lack of dealing with the application will not be passed on nor is the EPA legislating the need for cyan tracks.

The quality of the track is a downgrade, not a side-ways move.

Financially the red reader costs more buy and maintain for the exhibitor...so there is negative benefit for the exhibitor there.

Sorry Ted.

Steve
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-03-2004, 09:42 PM:
 
Pros and cons (both perceived and real) aside, the EPA (still) isn't the only environmental regulator on the planet.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-03-2004, 09:46 PM:
 
Steve:

It's not the United States' EPA, it's the more environmentally-conscious countries overseas. For example, Sweden and Germany. And water usage is often an issue for the Hollywood labs, especially during drought years.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-03-2004, 09:48 PM:
 
Steve and Daryl: I agree 100%... what a bunch of crap the looneys and Kodak/NATO/SMPTE is shoving down our throats!

I like light-bulb sound readers!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-03-2004, 09:53 PM:
 
Phil: MANY more proponents of cyan dye tracks than the three you mention, including Agfa and Fuji. As mentioned, if labs have less waste, we all sell LESS print film. I haven't seen you at any of the Cyan Dye Track Committee meetings voicing your objections or trying to better understand the pros and cons of the technology.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-03-2004, 11:22 PM:
 
John, while I'm a long-time SMPTE member, I'm a cripple and home-bound and cannot attend those meetings any longer.

And, why are you picking on me for what I said? I agreed with some other posters.

I just voice my "opinion" here. I was NOT pointing at YOU in particular, sorry you don't understand that, but so be it.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-04-2004, 12:37 AM:
 
Guys, Ted said "downgraded or rejected," not "defective." That means it could go from an A to an A-, or an A to a B grade. It's easy for me to believe that 10% of the lab output is B grade or worse (C grade or reject grade).

I'm curious, though, if that's "11% downgrade for application splash or rejected for applicaition splash" or "11% downgrade for any reason or rejected for application splash." If it's the former, what's the number that are actually downgraded regardless of reason?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-04-2004, 07:54 AM:
 
And when was the last time any effort was put in to improving application?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-04-2004, 01:02 PM:
 
Improving application technology is a continuing effort. Significant changes were needed to applicate at much higher processing speeds, replacing roller applicators with "extrusion" applicators, such as those developed by Technical Film Systems (Manfred G. "Mike" Michelson).
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-04-2004, 05:49 PM:
 

quote:

---

based on the crap I've seen come from some of the labs.

---

quote:

---

And when was the last time any effort was put in to improving application?

---

It's nice to find myself in such a positive environment, and among so many experts on lab procedures.

AS John says, there is ongoing work, world-wide, on every aspect of lab procedures, in order to keep up with increasing environmental restrictions, increasing print requirements in ever-decreasing turn-around times, additional special processes, escalating costs and an increasingly competitive market.

Among the work being done is the realisation that soundtrack redevelopment is the biggest single cause for reprints, is an environmental burden, AND is no longer necessary for the vast majority of projectors. The next step seems obvious to the stock manufacturers, the equipment manufacturers, the labs, and NATO, among other organisations. But not, it seems, here.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-04-2004, 06:23 PM:
 
Hey, you are in a positive environment. Otherwise, instead of saying "based on the crap I've seen come from some of the labs", I would have said, "based on the crap I've seen come from Atlab". Which in my limited experience with prints from your lab, isn't the case... they've all been good.

You've got to remember that at least 95% of the prints I deal with come from one of Deluxe or Technicolor's labs, and we all know how much we love Deluxe.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-05-2004, 08:23 AM:
 
Okay, let's discuss modern reverse scan red LED analog readers WITHOUT regard to cyan dye tracks.

For theatres playing current stereo analog soundtracks (color films with dye+silver, or occasional B&W silver variable area analog tracks), what are the pros and cons of reverse scan red LED readers?

These include availability for most soundheads, installation cost, maintenance cost, improved sound quality, etc. Are they a good investment? Do they have a good return on investment? (What is the "payback" period?)

Has anyone who has installed reverse scan red LED readers (new or as replacement for tungsten white light) felt the investment was not worth it? Has anyone converted BACK to tungsten white light readers because they were dissatisfied with red LED performance, or the cost of maintaining them? Does anyone deliberately buy and install old tungsten readers for any reason other than initial purchase price (used equipment)?

Remember, a significant MAJORITY of theatres in developed countries worldwide are already using red LED readers. There must be good reasons.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-06-2004, 01:51 AM:
 
Ah, but everything that is good about reverse scan red light LED readers is even BETTER with reverse scan IR LED readers (the original form of the "modern" reverse scan reader). IR also mitigates the principle disadvantage (that a tech is needed to change the LED's) by lasting longer.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2004, 04:38 AM:
 
John,
I never really felt there was a payback time for converting to reverse scam. The payback is instant as the results gained are normally light years ahead(pun intended) of the average old exciter systems I encounter. There is the cost to operate each type based on cost of Exciter lamps, exciter sockets failing and tech expense to properly maintain the old stuff vs. cost of the RED LED over a 5 year period, or longer, and replacing it. The RED LED is cheaper to operate and wins hands down. I am now starting to see RED LEDs that need replacement either from fading of segments failing.... after 7 years... and these were running continously....though after replacement they have all now been converted to go on and off with the projector motor. This ought to extend their life even longer. 7 to 10 years perhaps......

Steve said....
"Ah, but everything that is good about reverse scan red light LED readers is even BETTER with reverse scan IR LED readers"

Actually they are only temporarily better as sound tracks will some day turn blue. This is one aspect of reverse scam that you must weigh the cyan factor into. Except for a very few, those enjoying the benefits of IR will eventually need to convert over. IR LEDS also fade over time. They just fade quite a bit bit slower than their visible counterparts do. But then there is the VERY high price tag of the IR array unless you know a tech that has amassed a small collection of them from doing conversions for nervous customers.

Mark
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-06-2004, 11:22 AM:
 
In response to Steve, not all readers require a tech to change the LED. The BACP reader features interchangeable LED/Heatsinks and can be changed by the staff. In fact, either Red or IR LEDs can be used interchangeably with this model. There is a slight difference in Dolby Level and also a very slight difference in the focus point between the Red and IR LED.

Also, the IR LEDs are not without fault. The main failure mode is the center segments failing early. This produces gross distortion in the soundtrack and plays hell with the 2 to 4 matrix.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-07-2004, 01:05 AM:
 
The failures with the IR LEDs were almost always heat related...with the current Kelmar, CE or BACP LED mounts, I've yet to have a failure or significant Dolby level drift with IR.

As to slight level difference...you would not notice it with your power supply because you starve the LED. The BACP power supply is voltage regulated. An LED is inherently a voltage regulator. If you use a current regulated power supply, the IR LED requires significantly less gain than the visible RED counterpart. The focus difference is enough to warrant an A-chain if one were to switch between the two.

As to switching back to exciter lamps, I know of one that has done the experiment with visible, IR and exciters...they went back to exciters for running older optical films as the most pleasing sound. IR was the best sound with a clean track, exciter lamps won when it came to tracks that had abbrasions.

The reason people have switched to visible red light sources has to do with threats from the cyan lobby and nothing to do with the exhibitor's quest for quality.

As for "payback" time...it is near infinate. If you were to try and attribute increased revenue due to the switch from exciter lamps to reverse scan readers...you might be able to show something for increased analog quality but as for visible red readers...not a chance you could show any improved profits to offset the cost of purchase and installation.

As to the cost of the exhibitor for maintaining red readers versus exciters...Mark G and I simply disagree on this one.

John, your argument about percentage of the world that have red light readers and the need to cater to them is beyond stupid. Using that logic, when all readers were exciters, we had near 100% uniformity...as such no one should have switched and the the cyan bozos should have been swatted down on the concept alone...then again.

With an applicated soundtrack you have 100% capatibility, cyan track will never have that. Cyan tracks are inferior and there is no getting around it. They are a dumb idea proposed to an industry fixated on providing the worst quality performance in everyway possible whilst boasting about their "New Deluxe, Stadium Seating, Curved screen theatres" that have out of frame out of focus scratched up shakey messes.

Steve
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-07-2004, 10:38 AM:
 
Obviously at this end the water and waste savings are merely something we are told about; it's all hypothetical to us and countered by the thought that there is a half century's worth of experience behind the current system.

Maybe if it was a sideways move in sound quality there would be less argument over the other negatives. But this is negative negative negative with the only positive being the elimination of something that can't have been too terrible if it's worked on millions of reels of film around the world since the early 50's.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-07-2004, 11:19 AM:
 
I enjoy Steve's emotional response to most matters and I hesitae in posting on this topic as I have some reticence to touching the third rail which in this case is Guttag.

We do not "starve" the LED. We use voltage regulation instead of current regulation. There are advantages to both. Current control offers more uniform output in changing ambient temperature and thus, less drift in Dolby level.

We chose to use a temperature sensing circuit to compensate for a drift in LED current to accomplish the same end.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-07-2004, 11:28 AM:
 
Ohhhhhhhh noooooooo.....Everybody run and hide........

 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-07-2004, 08:33 PM:
 
Sam,

Don't read my post wrong. I'm not critiquing your supply as a suitable source...only when comparing how it powers an IR LED versus a red LED...the IR will be current starved in comparsion. Given the same current, the IR sysem will have a significant increase in level which translates directly to lower noise.

If you set up a processor with visible red LEDs on a current regulated supply so that you are right on Dolby-Level...if you put an IR LED in and all else is equal...the IR system should peg the meter or send the meter into the top of scale in digital meters.

Again...no need to fear me on this one.

Steve
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-08-2004, 12:30 AM:
 

quote:

---

Obviously at this end the water and waste savings are merely something we are told about; it's all hypothetical to us

---

Why's that, Steve? Don't you live on the same planet as the rest of us?
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-08-2004, 12:39 AM:
 
Looks like it's Steve on defense.

No offense taken Steve, I was just having a little fun, but I do abhor the term current starvation.

I get this mental image of those poor little LEDs wasting away, getting more emaciated by the day.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-08-2004, 12:41 AM:
 
Just think how much of the environment you'll save with current starved LEDs and cyan dye tracks.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-08-2004, 01:09 AM:
 

quote:

---

I would have said, "based on the crap I've seen come from Atlab".

---

quote:

---

All of the Bollywood prints I have handled from Atlab HAVE been crap... Maybe this is just Atlab in India

---

quote:

---

John, your argument about percentage of the world that have red light readers and the need to cater to them is beyond stupid

---

quote:

---

The reason people have switched to visible red light sources has to do with threats from the cyan lobby and nothing to do with the exhibitor's quest for quality.

---

quote:

---

With an applicated soundtrack you have 100% capatibility

---

quote:

---

the water and waste savings are merely something we are told about; it's all hypothetical to us and countered by the thought that there is a half century's worth of experience behind the current system

---

quote:

---

Maybe if it was a sideways move in sound quality there would be less argument over the other negatives. But this is negative negative negative with the only positive being the elimination of something that can't have been too terrible if it's worked on millions of reels of film around the world since the early 50's

---

Many positives:

*Significant reduction in use of fresh water by all labs
*Elimination of caustic developer containing hydroquinone
*Significant simplification of processing sequence
*Reduction of waste and print make-overs
*Removal of soundtrack silver from scrap color prints being landfilled
*Improved picture quality (no silver blotches in picture area)
*Elimination of application-caused sound problems
*Ability to optimize cross-mod distortion for one type of reader

Right now, the MIX of readers is a stalemate situation. It is very unlikely that anyone with red LED analog readers will go back to the "good old days" of only tungsten analog readers, or even install infrared LED arrays (which had never caught on anyway). Since a MIX of readers will continue to require "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks for the best compromise for XM distortion, a return to "traditional" (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks is unlikely.


Or, the movie industry can move ahead with 100% conversion to red LED readers and cyan dye analog soundtracks, and the MANY advantages they DO offer, for EVERYONE.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-08-2004, 09:27 AM:
 
Having run many bollywood "classics " I have ound most of the prints well struck and timed
Also since most of the theatres are reel to reel they don't print the pull up at the end of the reels often
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-08-2004, 12:26 PM:
 

quote:

---

There is no Atlab in India. There's Adlabs but no Atlab.

---

Well, I now officially feel like an idiot.

My apoligies to the good folks at Atlab for confusing them with the barbarians at Adlab.

Gordon -- You must have been lucky, then. EVERY print we've gotten (and we run Bollywood almost weekly at times) has had some sort of glaring printing defect. Sometimes the prints don't even arrive on cores... just a roll of film in a can. Maybe they're purposely screwing up the prints to push Digital over there. If there's any single country to benefit from the savings of mass-distribution via Digital, it's them. Especially the way they crank out [bad] movies there.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 03-08-2004, 01:47 PM:
 
Steve G., you ignorant slut (kidding). You know the EPA only regulates when it has to. Remember that Trailer volume limiting effort (TASA)? That was done to "beat the regulators to the punch." If efforts are made, forced legislation is rarely imposed. The environmental benefits are more than significant, they are Paramount, Universal, etc. There are benefits on both ends, in the labs manufacturing and in the end when the prints are destroyed.

Steve, you said that it is not a lateral move for sound quality. If you have a good (meaning you care enough about the presentation quality to not get the cheapest red light reader out there) red light reader, it will be a lateral move for the "back-up track". And if you have Digital sound (again, quality is important) the lateral move for the analog track will be something you'll read about and hopefully never really have the chance to notice.

Regarding my comment about Application leading to an 11% downgrade of reels reviewed... that means that the application splash is distracting enough for the reel to be downgraded to a "C" grade for quality, or rejected. "C" graded reels go to Cleveland or Canton or Columbus or any other mid-western city beginning with the letter "C". And rejects... I hope they don't go out, but that's a whole separate thread.

Just to be fun, I'm going to put on my NostraCostas hat and make a prediction... ready? By ShoWest, there will be at least one announcement about another 100% cyan rlease by a major studio... maybe two. And I know ShoWest is two weeks away, mind you.

Hope to see some of you at the Show. Including Steve G.... we can arm wrestle over cyan tracks.

All the best, Ted
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-08-2004, 02:07 PM:
 
Here I thought that all the C graded stuff got shipped to Canada. I guess that's just the way things are all over. My bad.

Anyway, until studios really, seriously start to push cyan dye tracks it's all just a bunch of Dreamworks.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-08-2004, 02:12 PM:
 
The barbarians of Adlab in addition to film labs, operate the one of the world's largest IMAX cinemas located in Mumbai ( Bombay ) India; they are also involved in E & D-cinema which is expanding among several players. There are other labs such as Filmlab and Prasad to service the Indian market.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-08-2004, 06:08 PM:
 
Wide-scale conversion to red LED readers enabled consideration of cyan dye tracks, not vice-versa. Infrared LED readers never gained significant penetration, even though they were available.

If I recall correctly the modern reverse scan readers were doing just fine with IR LED's and the change was made to red light because of predictions of imminent doom...er...I mean cyan tracks coming. Are you suggesting that the switch to red was for some other reason? Hard to believe since red light was making the conventional cyan + magenta + silver sound funky.

Just a guess but I think without the cyan threat we would be seeing IR reverse scan as the defacto standard. I know when I used to help Mark G. rebuild soundheads he eventually reached the conclusion that it for the price of new exciter sockets, slit lenses, stereo cells, and exciter supplies it made much more sense to give the client reverse scan. These were always IR at the time.
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-08-2004, 06:12 PM:
 
I thought we dealt with Adlabs of India back around page 16 of this thread. Absolutely no connection with Atlab. So it's nice to be officially "off" the Barbarian list. (Thanks, Thomas ).

So far as "how much water is there on the planet" is concerned: Forget about seawater: processing needs clean, fresh water - in the right place. I guess all the labs in the world could move to Lake Tanganyika, location of 20% of the world's supply of fresh water. Not sure that it wouldn't solve more problems than it created though. What else can we think of to avoid changing the last remaining soundheads?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-08-2004, 09:05 PM:
 
If we are stuck with this silly change can we do something to make the sound quality as good as with applicated film? Please don't say you get that with reverse scan because reverse scan with IR and applicated film would be still better. Apples and oranges. What can be done to improve the cyan track to the point that it is as good as what we have?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2004, 10:02 PM:
 
The early history of red LED readers is posted on the Dolby website:

http://www.dolby.com/tech/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

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At the 138th SMPTE Technical Conference and World Media Expo held in Los Angeles in October 1996, a paper entitled "Red LED Reproduction of Cyan Stereo Variable Area Dye Tracks," by Paul R. Goldberg (Zoran Corp.), Ioan Allen (Dolby Laboratories), Frank J. Ricotta (Technicolor), and Richard C. Sehlin (Eastman Kodak Co.), was presented. The paper discussed the means by which the motion picture industry could finally eliminate its dependence on analog sound track redevelopment, an additional processing step that reintroduces silver into analog sound tracks printed on color stock. A sound track reading mechanism, based on the use of a red light-emitting diode (LED) illumination source, was described. The mechanism allows the reading of a cyan dye track with fidelity essentially equal to that presently obtained from a standard "silver track" reproduced by a conventional sound track reader.

The paper also presented the results of in-depth studies conclusively demonstrating that red LED readers reproduce silver tracks and cyan dye tracks with equal amplitude. This is in contrast to conventional tungsten illumination source readers, which reproduce cyan dye sound tracks with an amplitude loss of ~11 dB. This characteristic of the red LED reader permits the installation of these reading mechanisms in theaters before any change to cyan dye analog soundtrack technology is implemented, and thus allows for an orderly changeover from silver to silverless sound tracks.

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At the present time red LED analog reader technology is being actively sold throughout the world by almost all projector equipment manufacturers. Since red readers were introduced in May, 1996, over 8,000 red LED readers have been installed, as shown in Figure 1. It is estimated that by December 1998 there will be over 15,000 red LED readers operating on a daily basis in theaters worldwide. These shipments include readers built into newly produced projectors, as well as upgrade kits for projectors already in the field.

Currently all new Cinemeccanica, Christie, and Kinoton projectors are being shipped with red readers. By July 1997 all new Strong projectors were also based on red LED technology. From a projector upgrade standpoint, Kelmar is presently shipping red LED reader kits for Ballantyne, Bauer, Century, Cinemeccanica, Denko, RCA, Simplex, and Tokewa projectors. Red LED reader kits from Component Engineering for Century and Simplex projectors have been available since the summer of 1997. The response to the use of red LED readers has been overwhelming. The reasons for this are:

Long LED life, up to 10,000 hours.
Increased stereo separation.
Wider frequency response at high power levels.
Significant reduction of illumination nonuniformity distortion.
Possibility of the industry moving to cyan dye tracks.
Red LED illumination sources have a compelling appearance.

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If we are stuck with this silly change can we do something to make the sound quality as good as with applicated film?

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You are showing your "silly" bias too . There are many more aspects of print quality than signal-to-noise alone. I've already mentioned the advantage of having a single XM optimization point (i.e., less distortion) if all readers are red LED. Poor application quality can affect sound quality (skips, bubbles, weaving, incorrect width, density variation, etc. CAN be heard). Taking ALL factors into consideration, cyan dye tracks ARE as good as with applicated film. And you well know that silver in the picture area certainly CAN be seen by all. Plus all the other advantages mentioned previously regarding reduced waste and environmental benefits.
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-08-2004, 10:42 PM:
 
One day, there'll be a war over resources - drinkable water, oil, metals, that sort of thing.

When the bombs have all fallen, and as we are picking our way through the post-apocalyptic rubble, we'll find a roll of film - the only format of moving image that we'll be able to recognise. Of course it will have a cyan track - the supply of water (let alone silver) having finally forced the change some years previously.

After months of wandering around the ruins, we'll find what was once a theatre. The bio-box/booth will still be standing, and, inside, a 35mm projector.

I just know it will be fitted with a tungsten exciter lamp sound head, and standing by it, will be a film-tech.com member. You guys are just so-o-o resilient.

But this time, you won't be able to hear the film .
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-08-2004, 10:45 PM:
 
So the power to the buildings will still be chugging along fine?
 

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Posted by Jason Thode (Member # 1854) on 03-09-2004, 01:42 AM:
 
And what of those Damn Dirty Apes, will they interfere?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-09-2004, 03:48 AM:
 

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After months of wandering around the ruins, we'll find what was once a theatre. The bio-box/booth will still be standing, and, inside, a 35mm projector.

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The film just may have been Water World but then, even if they did find a red led reader, unforunately, all the cyan hue would probably have faded.

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"Water World" was printed on the much more stable film stocks, so the picture and sound will likely be fine.

Seriously, the movie industry is trying to "Do the Right Thing" for the environment, and cyan dye tracks are only a part of that. Yet some people are willing to put up with acid rain for maybe a few pennies off their electric bill, dump their motor oil and antifreeze down a sewer, or throw out short-lived "planned obsolescence" electronic gear and its payload of heavy metals without properly recycling it.

Most print film is recycled, and almost all the silver is recovered by the labs during processing and reused. Unfortunately, some still ends up in landfills and incinerators.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-09-2004, 06:43 AM:
 
Oh where to begin...I do so hate bickering with John P...it give the impression I dislike him...which isn't true...but here it goes.

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Whether you think it is stupid or not, the FACT is that a significant majority of analog readers in developed countries ARE red LED.

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Wide-scale conversion to red LED readers enabled consideration of cyan dye tracks, not vice-versa. Infrared LED readers never gained significant penetration, even though they were available.

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The environmental advantages are very real, not hypothetical. A half century's worth of experience shows that soundtrack application is a wasteful procedure that finally can and should be replaced.

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Right now, the MIX of readers is a stalemate situation. It is very unlikely that anyone with red LED analog readers will go back to the "good old days" of only tungsten analog readers, or even install infrared LED arrays (which had never caught on anyway). Since a MIX of readers will continue to require "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks for the best compromise for XM distortion, a return to "traditional" (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks is unlikely.

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Steve G., you ignorant slut (kidding). You know the EPA only regulates when it has to.

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So far as "how much water is there on the planet" is concerned: Forget about seawater: processing needs clean, fresh water - in the right place.

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So widescale implementation of red LED readers was well underway BEFORE the proposal for cyan dye tracks, just as I stated. And the work was far from "threats from the cyan lobby" --- it was a proposal (technical paper presented at the SMPTE) that recognized that acceptance would require that tens of thousands of red LED readers would need to be installed based on their own merit, before any conversion of prints to cyan dye analog tracks could occur.

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There are many more aspects of print quality than signal-to-noise alone. I've already mentioned the advantage of having a single XM optimization point (i.e., less distortion) if all readers are red LED.

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Whereas you come up with any single type of soundhead you can obtain an optimized system. We had a single XM optimized point until the stupid cyan lobby came about...what you are proclaiming an advantage was a problem CREATED by the concept of the cyan track...it isn't the solution, it is problem...what a turn of the facts.

If you read the "Technical Paper" you will see how red LED "people" spin their psudoscience. First they acknowledge that there is a reduction in level when using red LEDs versus white light or IR. Then they change the soundtrack, then they say....look it is the white light/IR systems that have a reduction in level by a whopping 11dB. Never mind that at no time does the red reader ever have the highest S/N nor lowest distortion as compared to the best system...IR reader with applicated track.

One of the things that has allowed film to last as long as it has as compared to other industries is that it is pretty much fully backward compatible for a century...the cyan optical track throws that away...an existing projector can not play it and furthermore an archive that has thousands of existing prints can't just switch readers without significant increases in distortion. The cyan clowns just want to throw that all away to pursue at most 6-months more film prominance (when digital cinema finally does come) or to sell the stupid light sources. As to the labs, put up or shut up...either pay for the red readers so you can save big or shut up about the costs.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-09-2004, 07:30 AM:
 
Steve, so tell us how you are going to convince the significant majority of theatres that already have red LED readers to convert to IR? As I said, we're stuck in a stalemate that no one is pleased with. Like it or not, cyan dye tracks WOULD improve overall print quality by eliminating the known issues with soundtrack application problems, that hurt both picture and sound quality. Whether you care or not, it WILL help the environment.

If the one or two upcoming cyan track releases Ted Costas mentions are as successful and problem-free as Dreamworks found with Woody Allen's "Anything Else" analog cyan dye track, I think the "bickering" will be over later this year.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-09-2004, 08:08 AM:
 
Steve,
Instead of griping about all this why not make some real world S/N and distortion measurements of white light, red and IR LED's. Griping about it here on F-T although interesting reading for many is probably not going to get you or anyone else anyplace in the quest for better sound...

I think its high time that you put your gripes and findings into a technical paper and present it at an appropriate SMPTE meeting. Perhaps that might cause some heads that be to think more about it, and or possible improvements that could be made to get the cyan track up to a higher quality.

Mark @ CLACO
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-09-2004, 08:24 AM:
 
Mark, that too has been in the works.

As to IR, John, I already explained how that would happen...it is the cheapest per/hour to run and if there was no cyan threat, it would gain acceptance as not only superior but the least costly solution. Red LEDs will and are continually dying out only to be replaced with more red LEDs...with no cyan film, there would be no reason to not put in the IR LED.

As to the environment...just because you want claim significant affects doesn't make it so.

If you were truely concerned about the environment...lets push for the immediate adoption of DCinema and eliminate the film and labs all together. That would be THE most environmentally good thing to do. I'll bet George Lucas could get behind it too. Then again, film is still the best medium before us, perhaps we should stick with it until DCinema offers us some quality improvement to go along with the environmental one. The same arguement applies to the red readers.

Steve
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-09-2004, 08:57 AM:
 
I've already mentioned the environmental "payload" of the electronics industry. Those chips and circuit boards don't fall from heaven, they are made by chemical processes. And obsolete electronic equipment and media containing lead, cadmium, chromium, etc. is filling landfills. Even satellites have many environmental downsides.

Mark is correct, SMPTE papers are published for "peer review". Disputing data or conclusions is best done by staking your professional reputation on a published paper. You've had almost ten years to do so. But remember, good engineering judgement takes into account ALL the factors, not just a few you can pick and choose. For cyan dye tracks, many think the pros greatly outweigh the cons.
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 03-09-2004, 01:06 PM:
 
Why continue the push for optical sound tracks at all?

Why not just push everyone towards Digital sound and forget the optical track?

Oh wait, digital isn't reliable enough.

We used optical tracks all this time without a "backup".

Why not focus the energy in making digital the standard and as reliable as an optical track?

By the way, I'm still running exciters on my screens.

I've grown tired of the cry wolf syndrome we've had for years.

Can anyone say Warner Bros's film delivery revolution?
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-09-2004, 01:14 PM:
 
Digital sound doesn't really solve this problem, since many films still don't have digital tracks and others only have one format (often SRD). There's also a far greater upgrade cost (many thousands per screen vs. under $1k per projector for LED readers). Everyone who is complaining about the cost and difficulty (in some cases) of the LED systems (myself included) would be complaining far more loudly about the cost of digital.

Even if every film made from this point forward were to have all three digital formats and even if each of these formats were 100% reliable, there would always be a need to play optical tracks and there will be many older titles reprinted without recording a new sound negative, which means that the optical tracks would still be the only way to play back these films.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-09-2004, 02:28 PM:
 

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If the one or two upcoming cyan track releases Ted Costas mentions are as successful and problem-free as Dreamworks found with Woody Allen's "Anything Else" analog cyan dye track, I think the "bickering" will be over later this year.

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Red Alert
Following the completion of Red Alert, a discussion was held on the requirements for distribution. Before any prints can be sent out, a letter must be sent to each of the chief engineers of each cinema chain. Graham Edmondson circulated a draft of a document that included a section on loudness of commercials. For clarity, it may be better to split up the two subjects and circulate individual notes for each topic. A revised copy is attached with these minutes. Once the preliminary information had been circulated, the process of distributing the prints can begin. The NSS has been approached by to organise the circulation. Once the number of prints required has been decided, although Technicolor will do the printing and processing, each print requires a pos splice. This can become a time consuming process and options should be sought on how to do the splices in the easiest (cheapest) way possible. Steve O'Pray offered to approach David DeWilde of FMS. It may also be possible to split the large order into batches of a few hundred thereby minimising the amount of work required by each party at any one time. On the 3rd May, the BKSTS is holding a dye track information evening that will include a screening of Red Alert. The evening is being held at BVI headquarters in Hammersmith.

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-09-2004, 04:14 PM:
 
USL-Ultra Stereo Labs had cyan test film available in short rolls for testing. The Woody Allen test did not really have the same aural sense of an action film since his films play back in mono, no matter the format. I prefer LED-Laser vs exciter bulb since most cinemas are not handling classic product...signal to noise maybe slighly lower but then again the room noise and popcorn bags help mask that limitation
I worked in two small film labs with the machines running ( at that time ) at 50 + feet a minute and even that slow speed sound track application maintinance was a pain.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-09-2004, 05:53 PM:
 

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I worked in two small film labs with the machines running ( at that time ) at 50 + feet a minute and even that slow speed sound track application maintinance was a pain.

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Surely the least that the Dye Track Committee (or Dolby or a lab or someone else) can do would be to print up some dye track material and sell it for a reasonable fee.

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I wonder if the 8-minute mix and picture negative for the Dolby Cat. No.351 "Listen" test film still exists, and could be used to make a new Dolby SR subjective test film for cyan dye track? An "oldie but goodie".

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John,

We already have a film on the market to show the effect of the cyan track. It's a voice only film that begins on silver, and then splices to cyan, about 150 feet long. The number is Cat. No. No. 764, and it sells for $75. It's available from any Dolby equipment dealer.

See you at ShoWest!

Best regards,

Ioan

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So Christos Mitsakis had it exactly right.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-12-2004, 01:18 PM:
 
Perfect! Many thanks to Christos and John! I'll order it next week.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2004, 02:19 PM:
 
I still say someone needs to be doing this with previews. A studio could release an "A" version trailer in cyan with it clearly labeled as such. It would give everyone a strip of film they could run as those theaters who haven't converted (notice I didn't say "upgraded" ) to see how it will affect them. It could even be an attached trailer, but I think if documentation was sent out that a certain trailer was going to have a cyan track that people would run it out of curiosity.

Few people will blow $75 like Scott to get a strip.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-12-2004, 04:14 PM:
 
Phil drops more than that on the first dancer alone.
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-14-2004, 11:04 PM:
 

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I have a piece of that Cyan track produced by ATLAB and handed out at the Movie Convention last year.

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I believe it was supposed to be accurate Dolby level tone, but I didn't handle it myself so I can't swear to it. It was designed as a simple demo of what the cyan tracks look like, and a redLED vs silver track demonstration.

Cyan tracks should play within about 1db of regular silver tracks on a correct reader. On a tungsten reader you will be about 12db down (or 12db UP on silver if you have set up on the cyan!)
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-14-2004, 11:07 PM:
 
Steve:

(And what's REALLY funny, you're right!)

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-15-2004, 07:45 AM:
 
Brad, no doubt the trailer idea is quite do-able, especially since they already do dual inventories of trailers for scope and flat versions. The only thing is, you wouldn't want to use trailer elements as a substitute for real test materials, given what we know of the quality control on most trailers. You sure couldn't use them as a reference level, given that trailers are recorded 6db hotter than they should be in the first place.

But certainly just for a cheap, down and dirty, "let's see how this red reader sounds with a cyan track" kind of thing, going to dye tracks on trailers before the cyan features begin rolling out in full force is the sane way to go -- something I would think the SMPTE subcommittee would strongly suggest to all parties involved. In fact,this would be way to gauge how many theatres still are not equipped with red readers. Just send out cyan track trailers exclusively, and then document how many theatres complain that they need silver track versions. That will be the best kind of survey (and a cheap one at that) as to what kind of trouble a distributor will get into (or not) if he goes with a cyan-only release.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-15-2004, 07:55 PM:
 
This has probably been covered and I've forgotten but how does a pure silver track (B&W or Technicolor IB) sound on a red reader?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-15-2004, 09:06 PM:
 
Pure silver should be fine IF the cross-modulation distortion was optimized for that reader. An old track optimized for a tungsten reader will have some sibilant distortion.
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-16-2004, 12:35 AM:
 

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This has probably been covered and I've forgotten but how does a pure silver track (B&W or Technicolor IB) sound on a red reader?

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Pure silver should be fine IF the cross-modulation distortion was optimized for that reader. An old track optimized for a tungsten reader will have some sibilant distortion.

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Mr. Guttag's option of switching between red and IR LED arrays is inconvenient

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That's a service call to do the A chain between a classic movie & a midnight movie, shorts program, or arty movie!

I think this weekend I will make an informal survey of art/rep theatres (excluding venues like PAC's) in a major metropolitan area to see what the red reader penetration is. I know that when there's a specific objective there's a tendency to read data in a way that's supportive, but I think this one's leaving the venues that will be most affected concentrated in the tails of the distribution & swinging in the wind.

BTW it just occurs to me that this seems to be the largest incompatibility issue that has EVER hit in cinema sound history. Vitaphone & Movietone installations were common & no problem in theaters (& they even ran silents at the same time), optical & mag, digital & optical, just pile the readers on & there's always been backwards compatibility. This is the first yank-it-all-up-by-the-roots, my-way-or-the-highway 'innovation'.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-16-2004, 06:39 AM:
 
The cyan clowns have continually presented their "data" in a deceptive to out right lying ways. Please do report your findings William.

John does make one accurate statement...it is most inconvienent to switch between red and other light sources to play the various tracks.

A solution may be to have optical penthouses with digital delays to play one or the other soundtrack. BACP made a version of their Penthouse that could do this for one of the large format systems so they could run 35mm too.

Steve
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-16-2004, 07:56 AM:
 
Going back to the original post, "Anything Else" only played about a week so it wasn't much of a threat. Is there a more significant release on the way? It not, this is just more interesting discussion.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-16-2004, 10:55 AM:
 
Ted Costas of Dolby mentioned that another feature or two using cyan dye analog tracks would be announced next week at ShoWest.

Steve: How is your SMPTE technical paper coming? Is your amplitude performance, cross-modulation performance, or noise performance data any different than that presented in fellow "cyan clown" ( ) Paul Goldberg's paper published for peer review in the May 1998 SMPTE Journal?:

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

Coming to a different conclusion is valid, and well within the scope of rational engineering discussion. But good engineering judgement looks at ALL the factors (including the quality lost due to application problems, and missed opportunities for general improvement), not just one or two that you pick and choose.

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Submitting a Paper for Publication in the SMPTE Journal

Papers from all areas of motion imaging technology are welcome for submission in the Journal. After submission, all papers are reviewed by the Board of Editors. Submitted papers should be sent to SMPTE, at smpte@smpte.org.

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You can buy the LED at a decent price for replacement purposes from USL

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Yes, it would be very interesting if an "anti" article were accepted for publication.

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• Just thought I'd save the anti-cyan agitators the trouble of posting this thought.

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Personally, I've run lots of older prints (including B&W and dye-transfer) on an LED system and I haven't noticed the sound to be particularly bad. Maybe not ideal, but not noticeably "bad." I've heard far worse from misaligned white-light systems.

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Sensitivity to a few percent cross-modulation distortion varies with the individual and the program material. Dialog with lots of "spitty" S sounds tends to emphasize the sibilant distortion. The cross-modulation difference between white and red readers with old tracks is discussed in the Goldberg SMPTE paper. As noted, the mix of white light and red LED readers today is currently addressed by the compromise "high magenta" (magenta+silver) track. Ultimately, once there is mostly one type of reader again, all tracks would be optimized for cross-modulation distortion for that reader.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-16-2004, 11:42 PM:
 
If the red LEDs all come from Dolby then I have a real problem with the entire world being dependent on one source for a consumable. It does make you question their motivation on cyan. LEDs that need replacing every couple years times how many projectors worldwide times who knows...maybe as much as fifty dollars (markup) each??? How can that not skew ones evaluation of the situation? Because how much importance one places on the touted virtues of cyan and determines whether or not they outweigh the various negatives is always going to be a subjective opinion. For that much money I'd probably be extolling the virtues of waste and water savings, too. I could pat myself on the back at being a great environmentalist and collect a phat reward, too. Sweet!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-16-2004, 11:49 PM:
 
I feel obliged to come to Dolby's defense on the issue of pricing of the LEDs. The markup is actually almost non-existent and not at all typical of Dolby's usual markup on finished goods. How do I know? I priced them myself when I was still there.

It is in fact an array that has no other application except for soundtrack readers, hence the small numbers and the seemingly high price. SDDS did not wish to commission such an array and instead went with a ring of low cost LEDs in order to decollimate the light. It was one of a number of mistakes that led to their demise.

The reason off the shelf LED's cost pennies is they are made in the multiple millions and they throw out the bad ones.

I'm with Pytlak on this issue. Get a grip. Everything is not a conspiracy.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-17-2004, 03:32 AM:
 
I think we can take Sam`s word on the pricing. The whole issue for me doesn`t have much more value than the useless Dolby Digital vs. DTS discussion. Fact is, whatever sounds "best" to some ears, red LED readers sound very decent when aligned properly. Also, there is a big advantage you have with LED readers over conventional exciter bulb based systems. That is stability and reliability. I have so much trouble and pain with those exciter systems we still have! We have lost so many shows because the bulb decided to quit in the middle of a show or the filament sags and the sound drastically drops in quality because of uneven illumination.
LED readers very rarely quit completely, and the level drop is rather gradual and can easily be adjusted by the projectionist after 5 minutes maximum of training.
I also have to admit I rather like the readers Sam manufactures, I found them to be practical and effective to install and align, and I absolutely love the slide-out circuit board feature. So far, none of them has failed on us, but every piece of equipment is allowed to fail once in a while and then we will be able to save the show by taking the board from one of the other screens which has digital sound.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-17-2004, 05:11 AM:
 
To Dolby's credit during the initial years of LED failure their field represenatives where requesting failed units so they could be studied under microscopic inspection to find reasons for the failures. Parameters such as amount of power being used was also researched. If you are dead set against the use of LED there is always Laser, Jaxlite, Halogen with precision red filter
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-17-2004, 08:12 AM:
 
I don't think it's that unreasonable to wish for competitive suppliers. If one is labeled a conspiracy nut for not wanting there to be only a single source for an item, whether automobiles, toilet paper, operating systems, or red LED arrays, then label me a conspiracy nut. I'm glad if the profit motive is less than it might seem to be. I'd still be happier with a 2nd source.
 

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Posted by Jim Spohn (Member # 1547) on 03-17-2004, 09:24 AM:
 
It seems to me IMHO that the industry, before fiddling with the only really reliable system of reading sound from film, should perfect digital to the point where operators never have to worry about the digital dropping out. It just seems crazy to screw with the back-up system before finishing the development of the primary system. Just my thoughts.... Jim
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-17-2004, 09:45 AM:
 
Jim how are they screwing with it
Had many emergancy calls for realignment due to a knock or brocken solar cell or excitor lamp failing
never had an emergancy call related to a reverse scan reader
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-17-2004, 10:27 AM:
 
No offense intended to Steve.

Regarding second source LED arrays, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from developing LED arrays except for simple economics. There is no application at present other than ours. It is not a trivial task to develop a reliable array. (Dolby's version is somewhat less than ideal as we all know).

One has to pay for the R and D and the tooling to make them. Then you have to convince Toshiba or some other vendor to manufacture them at some reasonable price for relatively small quantities. I would guess that perhaps 200,000 Red LED arrays have been made and sold to date. This is chump change to an electronics manufacturer.

If there were a market for these in medical or other application, the price would drop dramatically.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-17-2004, 10:32 AM:
 
How many companies manufacture exciter lamps? There are at least 2-3, with GE being the most common.
 

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Posted by Clint Koch (Member # 1179) on 03-17-2004, 12:00 PM:
 
Mark said...
The RED LED's all come from Dolby.
Not true. USL does have LED's manufactured for the Jaxlight as well as replacements for existing reverse scan units. Part number is RLD-10. The BACP readers we manufacture do have LED's from Dolby yet when they fail we can supply replacements that we have manufactured at a fair price.
Clint
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-17-2004, 12:34 PM:
 
Steve, you can uncross your arms now.... Physically they look the same and appear to work just as well.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-17-2004, 03:09 PM:
 
Uncross arms?

Now if we could only get IR and Red LEDs in close alignment on the same substrate. Not sure about the focus issues though.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-17-2004, 03:16 PM:
 
"The RED LED's all come from Dolby."

Clint, I was speaking in terms of reverse scan readers which is pretty much what this thread is about. I am very aware of your red led arrays as well. Have you or Jack ever thought of using the LED arary from the JAX light as a replacement for the SDDS readers led arrays? There is some good possibility there...... besides just the longer life span of your array.

Mark
 

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Posted by Clint Koch (Member # 1179) on 03-17-2004, 04:20 PM:
 
Mark,
We have two versions of arrays. One for the Jaxlight, part number 146026, and one for reverse scan units, part number
RLD-10. Jack has thought of the SDDS application yet never pursued it. See you at Showest.
Clint
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-17-2004, 08:01 PM:
 

quote:

---

It seems to me IMHO that the industry, before fiddling with the only really reliable system of reading sound from film, should perfect digital to the point where operators never have to worry about the digital dropping out.

---

quote:

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MGM to Issue All 35 mm Prints
with Pure-Dye Analog Soundtracks

(March 19, 2004)—MGM and the Dye Track Committee have announced that beginning with the release of Soul Plane on May 28th, 2004, all 35 mm prints of all MGM titles will be issued in the US exclusively with pure-dye cyan analog soundtracks. MGM is the first studio to use environmentally friendly cyan tracks in lieu of traditional silver-applicated tracks on 100% of its 35 mm releases.

Environmental benefits of the cyan soundtrack include the elimination of caustic chemicals, and silver itself, from the print manufacturing process. The switch also enables a significant reduction in water usage: were all U.S. print manufacturing to convert to cyan tracks, the ongoing savings would be equivalent to the drinking water needs of a town of 75,000. Silver-applicated tracks have the further disadvantage of a comparatively high manufacturing reject rate.

“MGM is proud to be in the forefront of this landmark change in film sound-tracks, and to be taking a significant step in improving the environment,” said Chris Aronson, Executive Vice President, General Sales Manager, MGM. Added Ioan Allen of the Dye Track Committee, “MGM’s commitment is a major step in this unique partnership between studios and theatres.”

In exhibition, cyan soundtracks require red-light soundtrack readers, which have been standard in new projector models for some time. It is estimated that the vast majority of the projectors in use in the U.S. are now equipped with red-light readers, making it now practical to use cyan tracks on all 35 mm prints. “We are grateful for MGM’s leadership, and delighted that the studios are taking advantage of the theatres' shift to red light readers,” said John Fithian, President, National Association of Theatre Owners. “This shows that the film industry as a whole has an environmental conscience.”

The move to pure-dye soundtracks has been spearheaded by the six-year-old Dye Track Committee, which consists of representatives of Eastman Kodak, Dolby Laboratories, and print laboratories that include Deluxe and Technicolor. The technology has been thoroughly and successfully tested by labs, film distributors, and exhibitors over the past four years. Digital soundtracks are not silver-applicated, so are not affected by the decision to use cyan analog tracks.

---

Expect other announcements soon.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-19-2004, 12:36 PM:
 
I know a 10-plex here in Brooklyn, city of 3 million (not exactly a one horse town), that still has white-light readers in every screen. And that's just the one theatre that I know of because the projectionist is a friend of mine. I suspect there may be a few more. So when the press release says,"It is estimated that the vast majority of the projectors in use in the U.S. are now equipped with red-light readers," I wonder just how is was "estimated" and exactly what they mean by the word vast. After all, 51% is a majority and if I were a distributor, I surely wouldn't be happy loosing 49% of potential screens.

So how come the Committee, which includes Technicolor hasn't made cyan test film readily available prior to the release of an all-cyan inventory title? I find that a bit irresponsible, no? Given that Technicolor certainly has the facilities and the distribution system to ship rolls of test material with prints just as they ship trailers, one would think this a natural, easy way to get theatres ready in advance rather than just shipping out prints that will rely on new technology --technology that heretofore has been untested in most (dare I say the vast majority) of theatres that do have red-light readers. At the very least, shouldn't cyan track test film have been made part of the SMPTE's test film arsenal and been available long ago, surely before the first cyan-only release?
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-19-2004, 12:47 PM:
 
Sorry to get slightly off-topic here, but are "high magenta" tracks pure dye also, or do they contain some silver?

Also, is a release print generally consistent when using High Magenta versus Silver tracks? I've handled a few prints where on one reel the soundtrack was blatantly dark-maroon in color, while on the next reel it's almost solid black with no distinguishable shade.

Both the theaters that our company operates have all-white (exciter) readers. This should be interesting.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-19-2004, 01:45 PM:
 
Older soundtracks on color print film exposed the magenta and cyan layers, and were then applicated, giving a (cyan + magenta + silver) track. "High Magenta" exposes the magenta layer, which is then applicated to give a (magenta + silver) soundtrack.

The "high magenta" track is more compatible with a mix of reader types, as the cross-modulation optimization density is nearly the same for both white and red readers. Older soundtracks had to be optimized for one or the other, so there would be a few percent distortion on the one that it was not optimized for.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-19-2004, 05:55 PM:
 

quote:

---

all 35 mm prints of all MGM titles will be issued in the US exclusively with pure-dye cyan analog soundtracks.

---

Does anyone know if MGM is planning to use applicated tracks in Canada and then use those prints for worldwide distribution, or did they just overlook Canada as is typical of most US companies?

Also, does anyone know if this "press release" was announced anywhere other than here on www.dyetracks.org?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-19-2004, 07:14 PM:
 
Didn't you know Canada was part of the US? Puerto Rico is, however, a foreign country. At least that's how things are for most aspects of the movie business. I don't know about this situation.

Obviousy MGM's prints will now be useless in much of the world but I don't know how many were being reused anyway.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-19-2004, 09:03 PM:
 
Puerto Rico is not a foreign country but a Commonwealth alined with the USA. 99.99% of their cinemas are reverse scan equipped
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-19-2004, 10:39 PM:
 
I think you missed the point. IIRC distributors treat PR as a foreign territory presumably because of the language difference. I'm aware of its actual status.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-20-2004, 12:02 AM:
 
Dye tracks have been "thoroughly and successfully tested" by exhibitors? As far as I know, only one minor title and zero trailers have been generally available with dye tracks.

It will be interesting to see what happens when (if) wide releases go out cyan-only.
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 03-20-2004, 12:38 AM:
 
When were cyan buzz track, cyan Dolby tone, cyan pink noise, and cyan left-right test films made available for techs to test red LED readers out with?
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 03-20-2004, 03:20 AM:
 
what's the longevity of these tracks compared to the standard ones? It would be lousy if 10 or 20 years from now a repertory theatre booked a print, only to find the print that arrived has no soundtrack because it faded away. The Cyan layer has always been the first to fade...

danny
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-20-2004, 07:28 AM:
 
Daryl C.W. O'Shea wrote:

quote:

---

Does anyone know if MGM is planning to use applicated tracks in Canada and then use those prints for worldwide distribution, or did they just overlook Canada as is typical of most US companies?

---

quote:

---

The Cyan layer has always been the first to fade...

---

Where have you been for the last 20 years?

Ken Layton wrote:

quote:

---

When were cyan buzz track, cyan Dolby tone, cyan pink noise, and cyan left-right test films made available for techs to test red LED readers out with?

---

quote:

---

Obviousy MGM's prints will now be useless in much of the world

---

quote:

---

I'd suggest that they start putting warning sheets in every shipping case they send out, or even 'phoning round all the venues on their books.

---

quote:

---

Looks like it's finally happening for real...
According to a fax I just received, the September 19 release of "Anything Else"

---

quote:

---

Until another studio steps in, I still don't believe the switch is finally here.

---

(pinch yurself, Brad )

I guess MGM will do the same as Dreamworks did, and circulate the theatres with the right information. They'd be mugs to assume that the theatres know what is going on.

And yet, no word on what is happening here in the darker continents .
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-22-2004, 02:46 AM:
 
This weekend's survey of one major market city's theaters which run as their regular programming independent, art, & retro fare came up with this:

Theater 1: National chain, 4 screens, upgraded to IR on all screens about 3 yrs ago, 1 screen w/DTS, 1 w/DD, other 2 Ultra Stereo optical only.

Theater 2: Independent, single screen, incandescent exciter, DTS, CP55

Theater 3: Independent, single screen, changeover, incandescent exciter & CP 65

So what's the 'penetration' for the theaters most likely to be affected by an inventory incompatibility & change?

Notice it's the independents (both very nice houses & operations) that get hit with this change. Of interest, but outside of theaters running continuous schedules, are 2 historic houses now PAC's running occasional 'classic' titles & film festivals w/a mix of modern & older stuff.

-----------

What's read from this is that the only concern for those who wished to implement the change was 1st run. Next, the biggest chains with the newest equipment get the biggest break (especially those which ran on the deplorable last run of gambling on overbuilding, buying new equipment for the depreciation, going into bankruptcy, screwing suppliers, patrons & local competition who put on better shows while having to meet their smaller budgets & watch a real bottom line.

This probably came from mere oversight in just a delightful idea that when looking at the numbers a smaller number was decided as 'incosequential' in a desire to implement the change. But in those numbers was represented theatrical businesses & presentations outside of the largest chain operations: independents & programs of non-1st run material.

I ran festival last year at a PAC of a week of programming of new-to-10 year old shorts in the morning, & new-to-40 year old features with DD & optical afternoons & nights. So when you speak of 'inventories' becoming cyan, it's just blowing off archival prints, & ENTIRE inventories onhand at the studios "classics" divisions. And the PAC's which run summer programs of movies which just serve community enjoyment of film from inventories of classic divisions & new prints? They're out too. Kiss it goodbye when the first cyan print shows up, or when mgrs hear about the soundtrack change. Kiss that small segment of programming & exhibition goodbye. Everybody's happy killing off those "statistically insignificant" segment of going to the movies? Or is there a need for an inner personal denial of responsibility?

Now that who & what's being negatively effected is becoming clear, it looks like there's a need to just do face-saving evasion & tell anyone who points out the problems to just screw off. Really, change readers between movies? How can so facile & knowingly impracticle (in the sense of not possible to put into practice) be expected to be received by someone as not being just a blow-off?

Steve Guttag & I are absolutely on the opposite side of the fence on whether the environment is an important issue, but I am really getting cranked about the attitude being given by the folks who have just decided on ramrodding this monolithic change & screw everyone who doesn't like it. Steve's legitimately angry, & instead of honest answers or even acknowledgment of important, detrimental issues related to the process & change itself, the only response is evasion, sarcasm, & a power-differential enabled posture of 'so what' ?

As it's coming into focus, if this idea had come from anyone, I would have best expected from the suits at Carmike & Regal, not the screwdriver & measuring-tape boys. I never heard an engineer say "Well, only part of it burned up, so it's OK". Hell of a piece of work from people who are supposed to come up with completely considered & practical solutions.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-22-2004, 08:57 AM:
 
A theatre had to by an anamorphic lens to show a scope movie and that was "ramrodded through"
There is no practicle need to switch to an IR reader for old tracks
We have played lots of old VD tracks up here with no problems on red light (with the correct academy curve) the only problem might be the odd red vd track but that is almost as rare as the old Cinecolor cyan tracks of the 30's that required a red excitor lamp and a red dot selenium cell or the few diazo tracked IB tech prints that were done experimentally by UK technicolor
It is really a non issue and the cost is also a nonissue red lasers are cheap if that is the concern
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 03-22-2004, 12:14 PM:
 
So the labs are going to make 'normal' sound test films and trailers with normal tracks too? If it's harming the environment then they should be making all sound test films and trailers in cyan, too. I don't believe that horseshit about the environment being harmed.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-22-2004, 02:41 PM:
 
Ken,

Back on Feb. 17 on page 14 of this thread, Ted Costas said, "You are probably correct about trailers being the last to go cyan. The point is to make a smooth industry switch. Trailers would not help. Theatres won't convert for a cyan trailer."

It's not as if the harm to the environment is so desperate it needs to be corrected instantaneously. The dye track folks seem to've worked very very hard to make this an orderly transition (arguablly they're making the transition too slowly). I don't think you can fairly call the environmental claim "horseshit." Perhaps it is not as compelling an argument as you would like (but it is not the only argument behind the cyan transition).

Personally, I guess I must be incredibly naive, because I believe everyone here. I believe the dye track folks when they say their motivation really is saving of time and effort on costs on the part of the labs and improving the environment. I believe Steve G. when he says that the quality of reproduction of cyan tracks through red readers isn't as good as silver through traditional exciter lamps. And I believe Jess Daily when he says he couldn't hear the difference between old analog tracks from his archive when he compared a jaxlight with a traditional exciter (and he sent me the CD of WAV files and I put it up on the web).

Can all these people be right? I think so.
Might the industry be making a small compromise? Sure.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-24-2004, 06:18 PM:
 

quote:

---

Everybody's happy killing off those "statistically insignificant" segment of going to the movies?

---

quote:

---

I've already mentioned the environmental "payload" of the electronics industry. Those chips and circuit boards don't fall from heaven, they are made by chemical processes.

---

quote:

---

Mark is correct, SMPTE papers are published for "peer review". Disputing data or conclusions is best done by staking your professional reputation on a published paper. You've had almost ten years to do so.

---

quote:

---

The SMPTE Board of Editors will help you in your choice of words, choosing more professional terms than "clowns", "bull shit", "bozos", "stupid", "cow farts", "envirowackos", etc., that betray your personal bias.

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quote:

---

I feel obliged to come to Dolby's defense on the issue of pricing of the LEDs. The markup is actually almost non-existent and not at all typical of Dolby's usual markup on finished goods. How do I know? I priced them myself when I was still there.

---

quote:

---

There is no practicle need to switch to an IR reader for old tracks

---

quote:

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William - maybe you believe that conventional silver soundtracks can't be played on red readers. That's the way you are writing. It's not true. The majority of theatres have been playing silver tracks on red readers for several years.

---

quote:

---

As for being "ramrodded" through, the reverse is true. This change has been announced for 6 years.

---

quote:

---

as for being "ramrodded" through , the reverse is true, this change has been announced for six years. Isn't that long enough? some of those houses that changed their equipment are complaining that the change is too slow.

---

quote:

---

a theatre had to buy an anamorphic lens to show a scope movie and that was "ramrodded" through

---

quote:

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Does this distortion mean that distributors who presently hold earlier films with silver tracks may have to stand the cost of reprints, which in monochrome is very significant?

---

quote:

---

There is no point in complaining that the change is too slow because those who did convert, are not being disadvantaged technically by playing non cyan tracks (with the exception of silver it now seems).

---

quote:

---

Like heck we aren't. We've got to put up with high magenta tracks which are a compromise of optimization for IR and red light illumination.

---

The point that I made was that having converted, an exhibitor isn't going to gain technically from an immediate full introduction to cyan, therefore complaints for delay of the introduction are baseless.

Any reduction in standards resulting from the high magenta "compromise of optimization" exists whether the cyan introduction were delayed or not. This is not to imply that I'm not sympathetic to your view Daryl that the high magenta bridging step is a source of concern.

Your annoyance of holding on to a stock of apparent obsolete exciter lamps because of your early conversion supports the point I've already made. Exhibitors should not convert until they have to - afterall, would you replace you car tires before the existing ones wear out? May I suggest you hold on to your lamps Daryl, they just may be useful one day?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-28-2004, 09:43 AM:
 
Daryl,

Do you actually think that the quality of reproduction will go up with cyan track over high-magenta? Guess again...the plan was to lower it permanently. The solar cell still wants IR, not cyan. What high-magenta did was allow the red reader to not suffer from the same cross-mod distortion...the IR/white light reader was forced to not be optimized anymore.

It comes back to lowering the standards, then switching permanently to the lower standards so the fact you may have been an early adopter didn't hurt you...unless you run older films in which case you will always be hurt since you can't properly reproduce conventional tracks without excessive distortion.

Steve
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-28-2004, 10:39 AM:
 
Maybe someone should ask NATO and the major exhibitors why they are choosing to go along with this?
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-28-2004, 11:26 AM:
 
The reference to converting to scope was interesting as there are people who would claim it was a net decrease in quality.

Any number of great theatres were butchered to fit a wide screen. The depth of focus and geometric distortion on early films was hideous and some films like the 1954 "Star is Born" are good examples of a technically almost unwatchable film.

There is always a balance between the art form of film and the carnival aspects of it. The forum a cinema represents furthers both art and crap. As long as the cinema is profitable it allows the showing of everything out there, but don't get the idea are in the church business.

What about the various 3-D formats that were foisted on us?

At the end of the day, reverse scan readers with a cyan light source are a net improvement in audio quality for the vast majority of theatres.

That's all, I've got to go to Sunday school.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 03-28-2004, 12:46 PM:
 
Scope raised the bar which required Technicolor to improve their process...Kodak, Agfa to improve their film stock...introduction of stereo sound out of the experimental / event phase....new architectual designs...more visual dynamic composition and staging...all good in the long run. The last exciter lamps I had where sold on E-bay a couple of years ago
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-28-2004, 01:26 PM:
 
quote"Exhibitors should not convert until they have to" that is not a good idea since there would have beena high probablity that you would not be able to get a unit or have it installed in time
Up here FOX didn't put a cent towards the scope conversion and I understood it only did in the theatres they controlled

The LED is far more stable and I get hardly any calls now due to an A chain that is out of whack do to a bad excitor lamp filament
I went through over a box of BXM's trying to find ones with straight filaments for an excitor lamp house
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-28-2004, 03:23 PM:
 

quote:

---

reverse scan readers with a cyan light source

---

quote:

---

there would have been a high probability that you would not be able to get a unit or have it installed in time

---

quote:

---

Up here Fox didn't put a cent towards a scope conversion and I understand they only did it in theatres they controlled

---

quote:

---

Do you actually think that the quality of reproduction will go up with cyan track over high-magenta?

---

quote:

---

Disney Announces Switch to Environmentally Friendly Pure-Dye Cyan Soundtracks on Worldwide Film Release Prints Starting This Fall

BURBANK, Calif., March 22 /PRNewswire/ -- Starting this fall, Buena Vista Pictures Distribution will begin issuing 35mm prints of Walt Disney Pictures and Touchstone Pictures releases with environmentally friendly pure-dye cyan soundtracks, it was announced today (3/22/04) by Chuck Viane, president of Buena Vista Pictures Distribution, and Jeff Miller, executive vice president, Worldwide Post Production and Operations for The Walt Disney Studios. This new soundtrack technology represents a significant environmental advance for the motion pictures industry, and eliminates the use of traditional silver- applicated tracks and the caustic chemicals involved in that process. Buena Vista plans to switch entirely to cyan soundtracks on all of its worldwide release prints by January, 2005. To accomplish this goal, the Disney distribution arm is working closely with Dolby, Kodak, Technicolor and NATO to perfect the technology and encourage theater owners to install RED LED soundtrack readers on their projectors. RED LED readers, which are now standard in all US manufactured projectors, are currently installed in the vast majority of projectors in use in this country. MGM has also announced that they will be issuing pure-dye cyan soundtracks on all release prints beginning this May.

---

quote:

---

The recent United Airline commercial with a guy flying to an interview is brilliant, entirely without dialogue and tells a complete story in 30 seconds.

---

quote:

---

Old prints that were optimized for white light readers will have a few percent cross-modulation distortion on a red LED reader, but will certainly still be playable, as most theatres have already found.

---

quote:

---

Sensitivity to a few percent cross-modulation distortion varies with the individual and the program material. Dialog with lots of "spitty" S sounds tends to emphasize the sibilant distortion.

---

quote:

---

Once there is only type of reader in use, both color prints (cyan dye) and B&W prints (silver only) can be optimized for minimum cross-modulation distortion on red LED readers.

Old prints that were optimized for white light readers will have a few percent cross-modulation distortion on a red LED reader, but will certainly still be playable, as most theatres have already found.

---

quote:

---

Pure silver should be fine IF the cross-modulation distortion was optimized for that reader. An old track optimized for a tungsten reader will have some sibilant distortion.

---

quote:

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Addition of Cinemascope did NOT affect running non-anamorphic titles at all.

---

Yes it did; and as you point out in relation to John's post about silver tracks and in your closing anecdote, the issue is one of relative performance rather than whether you can play them at all. Try showing an Academy ratio film in a '30s auditorium which was been rebuilt in the '50s for 'scope, and the picture will as likely as not be about the size of a postage stamp, with several square miles of black masking fabric all around it.

It's very rarely that you find a theatre which has the masking on all four sides needed to show 1-38 at its best (the place in Vancouver where the screenings at last year's AMIA conference took place was a lovely exception, with a big, tall screen which virtually filled your field of vision). Seems to me that the compatibility issue with 'legacy' tracks and red readers is a very similar one. You'll still be able to play them, but they won't sound as good.

Personally, rather than bring in cyan tracks, I'd have got rid of the analogue SVA track altogether and started issuing Super 35 release prints with two Dolby digital tracks, one between each set of perforations (one being a backup). That would solve the environmental problem (if there ever was one), give you a much bigger frame, and if theatres are going to be forced to install new equipment anyway, they might as well go digital at that point. After all, 99.9% of mainstream film releases now have digital sound anyway; and the small number of foreign titles which don't could continue to use a silver track. Given the number of release prints they account for, there can't be much of an environmental argument against that. Theatres which show archive and rep titles could then have kept their exciter bulbs and everyone would have been happy. Sure, theatres would need new lenses and plates (not to mention realigning their projectors to account for the change in optical centre of the frame), and such an idea would screw DTS (the timecode would have to go at the edge of the new frame and readers in the field modified accordingly). But given the huge increase in image quality, I'd say it would have been worth investigating.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2004, 07:13 AM:
 
So Leo...now your idea is to have exhibitors that do not have digital sound be forced into purchasing one...and with a specific brand at that.

Why, for instance should a Drive-In be forced into a high-tech multi-channel sound system? Were are you going to put the subwoofer and keep it isolated from the other theatres With just SVA, one can create a nifty system that can either use traditional poles or using two different frequencies create a front and rear sound field.

CDS tried to do the eliminate the soundtrack idea...it didn't fly too well. Sony was also thinking along the same lines with SDDS. Analog sound will always have a robustness that digital will not have. Sure, the sound may get more degraded with time, if not properly cared for but generally it work and it can be kept working. Digital either works or it doesn't.

Steve
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-29-2004, 08:31 AM:
 
There'd be nothing new about forcing exhibitors into buying or leasing specific, patented technologies - this has been going on throughout the history of the industry. For example, if you want to show a certain feature you have to pay for the print stock and the services of the specific lab which made the print (albeit indirectly) - you don't get any choice in the matter. If you think Kodak prints look better than Fuji but all the prints for a given title were made on Fuji, there's nothing you can do to change that.

And a drive-in wouldn't need to install a 5.1 sound system - it could mix all the channels into a single one for playback/transmission, just as there are still some theatres that play SVA tracks in mono. And in any case, when the relevant patents run out, I'm sure we'll be seeing DD processors produced by other manufacturers; just as there are non-Dolby processors available now which can play SVA tracks.

Granted, the reliability of digital optical tracks - and specifically the risk of total failure - is a tougher nut to crack.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2004, 07:02 PM:
 
Not so fast on other brands of DD processors...While in the consumer market they like to license...in the professional market, they have always kept it all to themselves. Did they ever license either Dolby-A or Dolby-SR to any other manufacturers? I don't know of anyone they have licensed their professional digital encode/decode to either.

Steve
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-30-2004, 12:31 AM:
 

quote:

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Did they ever license either Dolby-A or Dolby-SR to any other manufacturers?

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quote:

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I'd have got rid of the analogue SVA track altogether and started issuing Super 35 release prints with two Dolby digital tracks, one between each set of perforations (one being a backup).

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quote:

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It's hard enough to get a film screened in Academy ratio let alone introducing complete incompatabilities in sound.

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And that's unlike changing to cyan tracks?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-30-2004, 09:38 PM:
 
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long..... Totally rediclous!

Mark
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-30-2004, 09:41 PM:
 
I find it easy to believe the thread has gone on so long. I can't believe how long it's taking to make the conversion. It's not like there's any notable technological progress being made.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-31-2004, 12:31 AM:
 
Dominic writes:

quote:

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Meanwhile, new theatres of course would save money and buy projectors without an analogue head (no need for it on new releases), and so all existing non-digital prints would eventually become unuseable except in specialist theatres.

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Which, IMHO, isn't any worse than what this change will introduce, namely that all existing non-digital prints will soon become unusable in all theatres (or at least, only semi-useable). There are many examples of obsolete technologies being phased out without causing Armageddon: for example when sound-on-disc was releasing terminated in the early '30s, all those theatres which had invested in Vitaphone (or clone systems) had to requip: and the industry survived.

The real problem would be for distributors who specialise in archive and re-release titles, and of course for archives. But they've got a problem anyway. I imagine what'll happen is that a few prestige venues and archive screening theatres will maintain a means of playing back films through incandescent exciters, but the rest will have to make do with nasty sound.

Another development may well be that some of the more anal archive access officers will refuse to allow their prints to play at LED or laser-only venues (just as they currently operate an arbitrary, blanket ban on the use of platters), thereby further restricting access by taxpayers to the preservation and restoration work they pay for.

Now if you really wanted to be environmentally friendly you would take advantage of digital optical sound to bring the standard projection speed back to 16fps, thereby saving a third on film stock and all those nasty chemicals. But I'm sure Kodak and the labs would put a fatwa on anyone who tried to seriously float that idea!
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-31-2004, 01:14 AM:
 
I agree with Mark G that this thread has gone on forever and I guess like everyone else, I'm prolonging it.

I'm sure Leo is kidding with his wanting to go back to 16FPS. Imagine the flicker and of course a whole new standard in slow speed recoding of the analog track.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-31-2004, 03:41 AM:
 
I was 90% kidding: though three-blade shutters would eliminate flicker (and would cost hardly anything, unless the light loss necessitated a lamp upgrade), and if we're (hypothetically, of course!) getting rid of analogue sound altogether, very little in the way of new standards would be needed.
 

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Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 03-31-2004, 04:54 AM:
 
Is this really still going on?
30 pages?
There should be a limit or something similar.
Like find something else to "write" about.
In the words of Homer......boooring!
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-31-2004, 09:51 AM:
 
How about a contest? First person to achieve Dolby Level with a white light source on a cyan track. (We'll need some cyan tone of course.) No restrictions...if you want to fit a MARC/350 to your soundhead so be it. Someone suggest a prize.

Oh by the way, Kill Bill Volume 2 Reel 1 has a pure silver (not applicated) track. (Hint! -- See the FITA forum) hehehe
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-31-2004, 10:04 AM:
 
Leo,

I think we should return back to Nitrate prints along with 16FPS. The fine grain sturcture and detail of these prints are unmatched to this day.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-31-2004, 11:24 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 03-31-2004, 12:06 PM:
 
I'll be going out in the next two weeks to reopen a single screen theater way out in the sticks that's been closed since 1981. The new owners (a non-profit group) want me to rebuild the vintage 1936 RCA tube sound system and clean up the Super Simplexes. They've got carbon arc, too. This theater still uses # 868 phototubes in the soundhead and is the only theater for many, many miles. Seems the residents there are fed up with video tapes and satellite tv and want to have the movie theater operating again.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-31-2004, 12:41 PM:
 
RCA 868 Gas Photodiode had a S-1 response:

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/8/868.pdf

http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tube-data/phototube3.jpg

http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tube-data/pmt16.jpg

These old pre-WWII tubes still had about 70% of peak response at 660nm., so a red LED source might be workable if you don't want to modernize with a solid state pickup. Be creative.
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 03-31-2004, 02:36 PM:
 
Thirty pages is not that long. Seven years to finnally get you guys talking about this being a reality is a long time.

"Bond 21" in cyan, coming to a red light reader near you!

Yours, Ted
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-31-2004, 02:40 PM:
 
I think I'll play that with white light, in my cat 699, just for fun.

Seven years for movement, in either direction, with few notable technological advances is a long time!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-31-2004, 03:33 PM:
 

quote:

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Seems the residents there are fed up with video tapes and satellite tv and want to have the movie theater operating again.

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-31-2004, 06:50 PM:
 
Sam,

I'm actually working on a theatre that will be running nitrate. If you've ever seen the stuff...it really does look better than everything else.

Steve
 

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Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 03-31-2004, 07:01 PM:
 
To spend money on Scope, on magnetic sound, on digital sound
(well - at that time even on Dolby A) was an investment in better performance in a theater. This time, we're forced to spend good money on something, we'll only need as a backup for now and then weak stability of SRD. Not fun at all !
Those two soundheads for my DP70's will cost more than a new 2 kW Kinoton lamphouse, which I would rather have had here and now. Life is tough to little people !
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-31-2004, 08:03 PM:
 
In response to Leo, I make an analog reader kit for the DP70 for very little money. It was strictly a labor of love and if I sell 50 total I'll consider it a great success. I'll be showing it at Cine Expo, Amsterdam if you are there.

To Steve,

You don't have to convince me, I ran Nitrate prints on many occasions in the 60's. I'm that old!

Ever hear of Alexander Nyevsky? Pardon the spelling if it's wrong.
 

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Posted by Warren Smyth (Member # 1838) on 03-31-2004, 10:47 PM:
 

quote:

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I think we should return to nitrate prints

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quote:

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While we are at it, why not return to black and white? The mind fills in the color anyway. I'd like milk bottles on my porch in the morning as well.

My point of course is that there is no going back. Life, technology and commerce keep moving forward whether we are ready or not.

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quote:

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If cyan hadn't been introduced, current release theaters *still* wouldn't have been affected, except that their analog soundtracks would still sound better than cyan.

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quote:

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Red LED readers were being installed by the thousands well BEFORE cyan dye tracks were ever a serious consideration.

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That is a questionable assertion. I recall helping install IR reverse scanners during soundhead rebuilds as well as projectors factory equipped with IR LED's in the mid to later 90's. First I saw or heard of red light was in connection with an eventual change to cyan tracks. I'd like to ask then, if the first generation of "modern" reverse scanners were equipped with IR LED's, giving high quality playback with the existing tracks and acceptable LED life what would prompt the manufacturers to switch to red LED's with poorer life and compatibility issues with the cyan/magenta/silver track? You're asserting that this change was made without the impetus of the cyan track. This would seem to be a completely illogical change without the cyan threat. So why was it done?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-02-2004, 12:20 PM:
 
On the nitrate issue, I guess I must be one of the youngest people ever to have projected the stuff before a paying audience (I was born in June 1973, 23 years and 4 months after Eastman Kodak announced the end of production). My purely subjective memory from the year and a half I worked at a theatre that was licensed to show it was that b/w nitrate prints invariably looked stunning, but that the colour IB ones were almost all a misregistered disappointment. So my gut instinct is to go with the silver content theory.

A couple of weeks ago I was chatting with the National Film and Television Archive's main access officer. When the topic of conversation turned to nitrate, she commented that 'we must try and get it on the screen a bit more', noting that due to a happy accident (the NFTVA having an ideal nitrate store on a disused air base, where storage capacity isn't a problem, hence nitrate elements have continued to be kept even after preservation dupes were made), we do have a wide range of nitrate viewing copies in very good condition. Recent research suggests that stored under ideal temperature and humidity conditions, the useful life of a nitrate element is measured in centuries rather than decades. Good atmospheric conditions reduces the pace of nitrate decomposition to a crawl.

So it would be great if we could establish a small network of cinemas which could be equipped with all the necessary safety kit and their projectionists thoroughly trained in nitrate handling and projection, and actually provide audiences with a chance to see how wonderful this stuff can look. And, compared to what the British taxpayer is currently spending on soon-to-be-obsolete digital projection, the cost would be negligable.

Sam: yes, some b/w features are printed on colour stock, especially the few that generate mass print runs. The print of The Man Who Wasn't There I saw was particularly horrible to watch, because the hue seemed to change with each reel change. Thankfully, archives and small re-release print runs are still using genuine b/w print stock.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-02-2004, 12:36 PM:
 
I seem to be repeating myself a lot lately but it would be great if someone could set up to make small quantities of nitrocellulose base and coat it with a good, silver-rich emulsion. B&W is not so complex like color so this is not impossible. The point would be just for demonstration purposes so people can see what nitrate looks like in brand new condition.

And if Kodak would sell them some T-Grain fixin's it would be better than ever and could be nothing less than the ultimate B&W experience. Since this is a fantasy let's have'em coat some 70mm nitrate stock, too.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-02-2004, 12:40 PM:
 
As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/DOLBYSCANREV.pdf

Jack Cashin of USL published an article about conversion to cyan dye tracks in October 1998. I believe the first presentation about cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners was at ShowEast in October 1998.

So it appears that thousands of red LED readers were installed prior to late 1998 without any "push" from cyan dye track conversion.

________________________________________________________________

Kodak's current B&W print film can achieve densities above 4.0 (10,000:1):

Kodak Black-and-White Print Film 2302

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/curves/so302Char.pdf

(BTW, Kodak T-Grain technology is not used in print films).
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-02-2004, 12:57 PM:
 
Steve: there is a small company in Suffolk, England, which still manufactures cellulose nitrate... on contract for the Ministry of Defence, for use in artillery shells. All it would take is a band casting machine and they could give us film base again.

quote:

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And if Kodak would sell them some T-Grain fixin's it would be better than ever and could be nothing less than the ultimate B&W experience. Since this is a fantasy let's have'em coat some 70mm nitrate stock, too.

---

Fox Grandeur used 70mm nitrate and from the photocopies of technical manuals and stuff I have, it seems that Century manufactured 70mm projectors with optical sound readers and all the safety precautions needed to cope with nitrate. Even if no actual machines survive, the design blueprints might well... maybe this idea isn't as far fetched as it sounds!

And as for nitrate IMAX...
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-02-2004, 01:44 PM:
 
I'm glad to see that someone at least is admitting this is all a fantasy.

Now, how about my fantasy of getting unhomogenized milk on my porch in glass bottles each morning?
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-02-2004, 01:44 PM:
 
Wasn't cellulose nitrate the preferred material for coating lacquer recording disks long after it stopped being used for film?

I would certainly like to see somebody shoot a film on 65mm black and white stock. The nearest I have seen to that is a 35mm anamorphic reduction print of 'The Big Trail'

Nitrate film is a hazardous material. There are many other hazardous materials; if suitable precautions are taken they can be handled with reasonable safety. I have known people who have come close to a state of panic when shown a small quantity of nitrate film. Some of these same people drive cars, with tens of litres of petrol in the tank behind them, and think nothing of it. They drive along a motorway behind a tanker carrying thiusands of litres of the stuff. I suppose people are more worried about unfamiar materials; most people today have probably never handled, or even seen nitrate film. I know for certain that I would rather be in a room where someone had dropped a reel of nitrate film than a room where someone had spilled a litre of petrol.

There's a lot of nonsense talked about nitrate film; I have been told that it will explode if you rewind it and, at the other extreme, that it's perfectly safe and reasonable to keep tens of reels of the stuff at home.

Leo, a few years ago I was speaking to Charles Beddow at the Projected Picture Trust section at Bletchley Park, there were various odd reels of film there, used for demonstration purposes, one of them was an old print from the documentary section of MOMI. I noticed that this was printed on colour stock, and Charles replied that it had to be done that way as the continuous loop platters used at MOMI had problems running black and white stock. Do you know why? It didn't look good, and the difference in the sections of 'Schlindler's List' which were black and white, but printed on colour stock due to the girl in the red coat, was vast. A few years ago 8mm black and white prints started being made on colour stock, as black and white was no longer available. I hope black and white 35 mm stocks, negative, duplicating and print, continue to be available, and used.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-02-2004, 03:11 PM:
 

quote:

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I would certainly like to see somebody shoot a film on 65mm black and white stock. The nearest I have seen to that is a 35mm anamorphic reduction print of 'The Big Trail'

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quote:

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Leo, a few years ago I was speaking to Charles Beddow at the Projected Picture Trust section at Bletchley Park, there were various odd reels of film there, used for demonstration purposes, one of them was an old print from the documentary section of MOMI. I noticed that this was printed on colour stock, and Charles replied that it had to be done that way as the continuous loop platters used at MOMI had problems running black and white stock. Do you know why?

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quote:

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Today's Black and white films are often released on color stck, no?

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Often, but not always. Kill Bill Vol. 2 uses B&W silver image film for the first 9 minutes if I'm not mistaken.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-04-2004, 12:25 PM:
 
Good! I peeked into Kill Bill (vol 1) yesterday during a black and white scene, not as sharp as it could have been but the worst was yet to come... CRAP CODE!! Big, red and brown ugly dots dancing all over the black and white scene!!

Let's see them try and print CRAP CODE on B&W stock!

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-04-2004, 01:51 PM:
 
JTS 2004 Preliminary Program

Understanding High-Magenta, Cyan-Dye and Red LED Readers - Implications and

Strategies for Optical Soundtracks
Panel Presentation Coordinated by Robert Heiber

President, Chace Productions

The biggest change in optical soundtrack technology since the introduction of the digital optical sound formats in the early 1990s is currently underway. These changes - high-magenta and cyan dye optical soundtracks and red LED (light emitting diode) readers - have a significant impact on asset managers, archives, restoration professionals and repertory exhibition. This presentation will explain how these changes in optical soundtrack technology affect not only the sound elements in storage but also the creation of new soundtracks for the future. The background surrounding this change and the current status of this transition will be discussed. Audio examples will demonstrate problems that may be encountered and the panel will present strategies for dealing with the issues that range from exhibiting legacy material on red LED readers to using tracks manufactured prior to this change for new prints. Guidelines will be distributed to attendees.

Panel Speakers:

Dr. Alan Masson, Eastman Kodak Co

Douglas Greenfield, Dolby Laboratories
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 04-04-2004, 01:58 PM:
 
That looks like a great programme; wish I could go. Ah well, roll on AMIA 2004...
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-04-2004, 11:11 PM:
 
The current boxoffice smash classic hit, The Lost Skeleton Of Cadavra is "black and white", but is pretty obviously color stock
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-05-2004, 12:25 AM:
 

quote:

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As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/DOLBYSCANREV.pdf

Jack Cashin of USL published an article about conversion to cyan dye tracks in October 1998. I believe the first presentation about cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners was at ShowEast in October 1998.

So it appears that thousands of red LED readers were installed prior to late 1998 without any "push" from cyan dye track conversion.

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quote:

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At the 138th SMPTE Technical Conference and World Media Expo held in Los Angeles in October 1996, a paper entitled "Red LED Reproduction of Cyan Stereo Variable Area Dye Tracks," by Paul R. Goldberg (Zoran Corp.), Ioan Allen (Dolby Laboratories), Frank J. Ricotta (Technicolor), and Richard C. Sehlin (Eastman Kodak Co.), was presented. The paper discussed the means by which the motion picture industry could finally eliminate its dependence on analog sound track redevelopment, an additional processing step that reintroduces silver into analog soundtracks printed on color stock. A soundtrack reading mechanism, based on the use of a red light-emitting diode (LED) illumination source, was described. The mechanism allows the reading of a cyan dye track with fidelity essentially equal to that presently obtained from a standard "silver track" reproduced by a conventional soundtrack reader.

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quote:

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As far as I can find in my files, the ads and articles about red LED readers published in Boxoffice, Film Journal, etc. in 1996 and 1997 did not "sell" red readers based on any proposed conversion to cyan dye track. The Joseph Hull article (Film Journal, August 1998) is the first that really promoted the idea of cyan dye tracks directly to theatre owners, and by that time, he reported 28,000 red LED installations worldwide:

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quote:

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Then to whom were they sold before 1998, & how were they "sold" since they required high-magenta to support them ?

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quote:

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Also one of the disadvantages of the IR led was it read residual print wash as a modulated noise which the red led didn't

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quote:

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Why didn't Disney want to go high-magenta?

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quote:

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Disney rep Jeff Miller expressed support for the program, and spoke of previous environmental efforts in which his company had been involved. “As soon as the theatres have converted, Disney will issue 100 percent dye track analog releases,” he said. Miller encouraged NATO and ITEA to maximize efforts in persuading the remaining screens to convert, pointing out that hardware costs could be as little as $500 per screen.

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quote:

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"Our industry is striving to eliminate sources of environmental harm, improve lab productivity and theatrical efficiency," Buena Vista Distribution president Chuck Viane said. "Buena Vista is proud to be taking a cutting-edge position in this worthy effort."...
Disney's first pure-dye cyan title is "Mr. 3000," scheduled for release worldwide in September. According to Viane, Disney will then switchover to pure-dye cyan for all its titles released worldwide beginning Jan. 1. Disney's release print conversion will be handled by Technicolor.

In the past, labs manufacturing the soundtracks on 35mm release prints around the world have used environmentally unfriendly chemical processes. Environmentalists have charged that the lab procedures waste water, pollute the air, produce manufacturing waste, and introduce an array of caustic chemicals into the environment.

Under the old process, silver was used to create the soundtrack; the new process substitutes pure-dye cyan, which eliminates the use of caustic and toxic soundtrack redeveloper solution and allows for much simpler disposal of used prints.

"We manufacture a billion feet of film a year and the industry all combined (turns out) probably 15 (billion)-20 billion feet," said Jeff Miller, executive vp worldwide postproduction and operations for Walt Disney Studios.

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-07-2004, 04:02 AM:
 
I can appreciate the fact that the USA has a very high penetration of red exciter/reverse scanners, but that Disney is claiming that they are going to release 100% cyan worldwide gives me pause. I find it hard to believe that those hundreds of thousands of screens in the third world countries have all been converted to play cyan tracks. Now far be it for me to chide any Disney executive, but although $500 might be thought of as a paltry sum to Mr. Miller, it may very well be an unmanageable burden to small neighborhood theatres in Malaysia. Unless Disney is willing to write off the potential revenue from the very large worldwide foreign markets, they'd better damn well plan on a double inventory or loose their overseas cash cow.

And when it comes to money, I'll bet mine on Disney not worrying much about the environmental impact of redeveloped silver tracks in third world countries if it means they can't play their pictures there. Besides, what's a little silver in the water and air....in fact, third world peoples should be grateful that they are being given a free supply of silver and toxic chemicals from their friends with the big ears.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-07-2004, 08:40 AM:
 
Evidently, Disney feels the January 1, 2005 date for the worldwide conversion is sufficient time for all theatres to have red readers.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 04-07-2004, 08:47 AM:
 
So the applicated track causes air pollution, too? My, we sure were an evil industry for half a century.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-07-2004, 09:04 AM:
 
That Hollywood Reporter article was written by a reporter who may not have been familiar with lab operations. Not much soundtrack developer is vaporized, but it all does go down the drain, along with millions of gallons of wash water.

We're reducing air pollution too. Kodak won the EPA 2003 Stratospheric Ozone Protection Award for the development of PTR film cleaning, which has allowed labs and video transfer facilities to greatly reduce their use of ozone-depleting solvents for film cleaning:

http://millimeter.com/ar/video_kodak_receives_epa/

quote:

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ROCHESTER, N.Y.--Eastman Kodak Company received the 2003 Stratospheric Ozone Protection Award from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in recognition of Kodak's commitment to reducing ozone-depleting chemicals through the development of Particle Transfer Roller (PTR) technology for cleaning motion picture film. The Stratospheric Ozone Protection Award, presented as part of Earth Day celebrations worldwide, recognizes a commitment to helping prevent the release of ozone-depleting chemicals. Kodak was one of only four companies worldwide honored in 2003.

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-08-2004, 04:43 AM:
 

quote:

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The October 1996 SMPTE paper was where the advantages of a cyan dye track enabled by red LED readers were first publicly presented to engineers for peer review and discussion. But it wasn't until late 1998 that theatre owners were directly encouraged to convert.

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quote:

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Because of its physical and chemical properties, hydroquinone will be
distributed mainly to the water compartment when released into the
environment. It is, in general, highly toxic for organisms in the
environment, though the sensitivity of different species within the
same taxonomic group varies greatly.

---

quote:

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Hydroquinone was evaluated by a Nordic Expert Group for Documentation
of Occupational Exposure Limits in 1989. It was recommended that its
genotoxic effects should be given attention and also its possible
effects on the immune system, bone marrow, skin, and mucous membranes.

---

quote:

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The United Nations Committee of Experts on the Transport of Dangerous
Goods classifies hydroquinone as a toxic substance (Hazard Class 6.1)

---

quote:

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Sound Track Developer Specifications

Sound Track Developer (SD-43b)

Water 10-16°C (50-60°F)* 800 mL

* Start with mix water in the recommended temperature range to achieve a heated solution 32-38°C (90-100°F) after the sodium hydroxide has been dissolved. A starting water temperature higher than recommended may be hazardous, as the temperature can rise after addition of sodium hydroxide to a point where water vapor containing sodium hydroxide is given off.

Sound Coating Aid (Natrosol 250HR)† 2.0 g

† Natrosol is a trademark for hydroxyethylcellulose. Natrosol 250HR is manufactured by Hercules, Inc., Coating and Specialty Products Department, Hercules Plaza, Wilmington DE 19894. Sift slowly into solution with good continuous agitation, taking care not to aerate the solution. A homogenous mixture should be obtained in 45 to 60 minutes.

Sodium Hydroxide 80 g

Hexylene Glycol 2.0 mL

Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 50 g‡

‡ Before adding hydroquinone, cool the solution to room temperature.

Hydroquinone 60 g

Ethylenediamine (98% by Weight) 13 mL

Water to make 1 Liter §

§ If occasional removal of silver from the picture area is needed because of improperly coated sound track developer, add 4 g/L potassium iodide to this formula prior to reprocessing.

WARNING! Causes eye burns, skin irritation, and allergic skin reaction. Avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. In case of
contact, immediately flush eyes or skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. In case of eye contact, get medical attention.

---

quote:

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I completely disput the claim that the industry chose visible red over infrared.

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So what led to the success of red LED readers? The only real "promotion" of cyan tracks prior to August 1998 were two SMPTE papers for peer review. The Dye Track Committee was formed in 1998. All segments of the industry were represented. Meetings were open and attended by both those who favored conversion, and those who argued against it. Weighing ALL factors, an industry consensus developed, favoring red LED readers. You have only yourself to blame if you feel you were not part of the process:

http://www.dyetracks.org

Your "conspiracy theories" are getting tiresome. Your SMPTE paper is years overdue.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-08-2004, 10:44 PM:
 
Steve,

You'd better get that typewriter out of the closet... its been there far too long .

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-09-2004, 01:22 AM:
 
John, when a sole supplier of a device changes it, the industry doesn't have much say. The switch from IR to visible had nothing to do with a consumer or industry choice...merely that Dolby was now supplying visible red LEDs now.
Just how many projector price sheets have you seen? I can remember the "choice" between reverse scan readers and forward scan readers but NEVER the option of IR or visible red as the light source. Even from third party suppliers like Component Engineering and Kelmar...One year there was IR, the next year it was visible red...no choice...as you make it out to be.
You may find my statements tiresome but your statements are lacking truth. I'd rather be tiresome than misleading.
Steve
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 04-09-2004, 04:01 AM:
 
I'm considered a very easy-going guy, but I am getting cranked by the re-direction from specific technical matters to simply a restatement of the generality which brings them up, & by re-direction to personal matters from technical issues.

Just to be open about these irritants:

quote:

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The Dye Track Committee was formed in 1998. All segments of the industry were represented. Meetings were open and attended by both those who favored conversion, and those who argued against it. Weighing ALL factors, an industry consensus developed, favoring red LED readers. You have only yourself to blame if you feel you were not part of the process:

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quote:

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Dye Track ShowEast Meeting - 11/1/01

Present:
Ioan Allen IA@dolby.com
Pat Moore PMoore1st@aol.com
Neal Rockman Nrockman@CardinalSound.com
Steven Guttag sguttag@aol.com
Jack Cashin jack@uslinc.com
Dave Dawson dave_dawson@mpaa.org
Jack Teahan Kodak
Colin Davis cfjdavis@kodak.com

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quote:

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MINUTES OF A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE INTRODUCTION OF CYAN DYE ANALOGUE SOUNDTRACKS 26 October 2000

As at the first meeting, concerns were raised regarding the 'playability' on red readers of black and white silver (rather than B&W on color stock) prints. Although mainly affecting archive material, every few years a subject is released on B&W stock for artistic purposes. Andrew Wales will come up with a list of possible combinations of print and reader type and with the help of Dave Allen and Mel Ryder come up with a set of printing specification.

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quote:

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Instead of griping about all this why not make some real world S/N and distortion measurements of white light, red and IR LED's

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quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of griping about all this why not make some real world S/N and distortion measurements of white light, red and IR LED's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me, but shouldn't that have been required of the Dye Track Committee?

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quote:

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Steve Guttag was present & raised questions at least once at a dye tracks meeting...

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quote:

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1. The "mix of readers" is tungsten/IR & red.
2. The existing track configuration (silver+dye XM optimized for tungsten) suits tungsten/IR readers with known fidelity characteristics.
3. The red readers will reproduce existing redeveloped soundtracks with lower quality than would IR/tungsten readers.
4. High-magenta was developed to mitigate the lower-quality of reproduction on red readers while IR/tungsten readers were still in use.

Which one of those statements is wrong?

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quote:

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The switch from IR to visible had nothing to do with a consumer or industry choice...merely that Dolby was now supplying visible red LEDs now.

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quote:

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Disney, MGM Commit to Cyan Analog Soundtracks

At ShoWest 2004 in Las Vegas in March, Disney and MGM announced significant commitments to using environmentally friendly pure-dye cyan analog soundtracks in lieu of traditional silver-applicated tracks on their 35 mm release prints.

This fall, beginning with Mr. 3000, Buena Vista Pictures Distribution will start issuing Disney and Touchstone 35 mm releases with pure-dye cyan soundtracks, and plans to switch entirely to cyan on all prints worldwide by January 2005. In the meantime, MGM becomes the first studio to use cyan soundtracks on 100% of its U.S. releases, beginning with Soul Plane in May of this year.

Environmental benefits of the cyan soundtrack include the elimination of caustic chemicals, and silver itself, from the print manufacturing process, plus a significant reduction in water usage. The technology has been thoroughly and successfully tested by labs, film distributors, and exhibitors over the past four years. The widespread use of red-light soundtrack readers in cinemas now makes it practical to issue all 35 mm prints with cyan tracks in many markets, such as the U.S., where it is estimated that the vast majority of screens are now equipped. Digital soundtracks are not affected by the change.

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quote:

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Announces Switch to Environmentally Friendly
Pure-Dye Cyan Soundtracks on Worldwide Film Release Prints

Starting This Fall Buena Vista Partners With Kodak, Dolby
and NATO to Eliminate Silver Soundtracks

BURBANK, Calif., March 22, 2004, PR Newswire—Starting this fall, Buena Vista Pictures Distribution will begin issuing 35mm prints of Walt Disney Pictures and Touchstone Pictures releases with environmentally friendly pure-dye cyan soundtracks, it was announced today (3/22/04) by Chuck Viane, president of Buena Vista Pictures Distribution, and Jeff Miller, executive vice president, Worldwide Post Production and Operations for The Walt Disney Studios. This new soundtrack technology represents a significant environmental advance for the motion pictures industry, and eliminates the use of traditional silver- applicated tracks and the caustic chemicals involved in that process. Buena Vista plans to switch entirely to cyan soundtracks on all of its worldwide release prints by January, 2005.

To accomplish this goal, the Disney distribution arm is working closely with Dolby, Kodak, Technicolor and NATO to perfect the technology and encourage theater owners to install RED LED soundtrack readers on their projectors. RED LED readers, which are now standard in all US manufactured projectors, are currently installed in the vast majority of projectors in use in this country. MGM has also announced that they will be issuing pure-dye cyan soundtracks on all release prints beginning this May. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20040322/LAM133)

Commenting on the announcement, Viane said, "Our industry is striving to eliminate sources of environmental harm, improve lab productivity and theatrical efficiency, and Buena Vista is proud to be taking a cutting edge position in this worthy effort. Most theater projectors are now equipped with the RED LED readers and we expect the others to convert to this technology by 2005. I'm sure that other distributors will soon be supporting this movement to cyan soundtracks and that together we can all do our part to make this a cleaner planet."

Jeff Miller added, "Dolby, Kodak, Technicolor, NATO, and our Studio have been working hard to perfect the new cyan soundtrack technology so that audiences will enjoy the sound reproduction for analog tracks on RED LED readers as the filmmakers intended. Buena Vista will release one of its major fall titles with this type of soundtrack as we move forward with our plans for complete conversion by January, 2005. This is a major advance for our industry and something we can all be very proud of."

John Fithian, president of the National Association of Theatre Owners, said, "NATO congratulates our friends at Disney for taking this important step. It's wonderful to see America's movie theatres and movie studios work together to improve our environment."

In addition to eliminating silver and all of the associated caustic chemicals used in the old process, the new cyan soundtrack technology provides enormous benefits in terms of water conservation. Given that a typical movie release may require between 5,000 to 10,000 prints, it is estimated that this new approach to film production can conserve enough water to supply a town of 75,000 people with drinking water each year.

---

 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-19-2004, 12:09 PM:
 
Since when is 5000-10000 prints a "typical" film release? Has there ever been a 10000-print release?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-19-2004, 12:56 PM:
 
I think "Star Wars Episode 2: Attack of the Clones" had well over 10,000 film prints worldwide. Two or three thousand prints is not uncommon, and many "big ones" now approach 10,000 worldwide.

Each Tuesday, the Hollywood Reporter has a domestic boxoffice report that give the reported number of US theatres with prints, and several thousand prints are typical of major releases. On April 6, the Hollywood Reporter said Disney's "Home on the Range" had 3,047 prints domestically.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 04-19-2004, 01:12 PM:
 
John P. notes, "Each Tuesday, the Hollywood Reporter has a domestic boxoffice report that give the reported number of US theatres with prints, and several thousand prints are typical of major releases. On April 6, the Hollywood Reporter said Disney's "Home on the Range" had 3,047 prints domestically."

A more convenient source of the same information is boxofficemojo.com, which is free, unlike Hollywood Reporter.

But neither source has good information on the number of prints; they both report the number of theatres, and it's not very easy to tell what the ratio of prints/theatres is in any sort of reliable way.

In terms of direct personal experience, the highest print numbers we've seen over here recently were in the mid-6000s for Matrix: Revolutions, mid-4000s for Something's Gotta Give, and high-4000s for Big Fish. (For whatever reason, we had lower print numbers for some more popular blockbuster titles.)

Those films are had peak theatre counts of 3502, 2876, and 2514, respectively. That conservatively suggests a theatre:print ratio of somewhere between 1.5-1.9 (minimum) for major titles. The widest release for 2003 and 2004 both was Return of the King in 3703 theatres, and it was 3876 for Spiderman in 2002.

One might expect the theatre:print ratio to follow a similar formula for within each studio, so it might be interesting to know the peak observed print number for major titles by studio. The above are one major WB title and two medium-range Sony titles (if anyone really cares to try to contribute to this discussion, lets start a new thread).

--jhawk
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-19-2004, 01:26 PM:
 
Again, those numbers are for DOMESTIC release. A picture that breaks worldwide simultaneously will have much higher numbers.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-19-2004, 01:30 PM:
 
Good point about films that have simultaneous worldwide release dates.

I didn't mean to start a whole new discussion; I was just amused that whoever wrote the press release has an interesting concept of what "typical" means.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 04-19-2004, 06:05 PM:
 

quote:

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Environmental benefits of the cyan soundtrack include the elimination of caustic chemicals, and silver itself, from the print manufacturing process

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quote:

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Just to make sure I have it right, doesn't color film have silver on it, until it is developed?

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quote:

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About 1/3 of the silver produced worldwide is used in photography.

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quote:

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The market price of silver hit $­­­50.35 per ounce in January 1980.

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quote:

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best real-world example of such a strategy is the infamous manipulation of the silver market by the Hunt family (and others) who at one time held about $14 billion worth of silver. In January 1979, before the market manipulation, silver was selling for about $6 an ounce. Then in 1979, the Hunts began to buy silver futures and demand delivery (i.e., they cornered the market). At the same time, they bought large quantities of silver and held the physical silver off the market (i.e., the market was squeezed). As a result, in January 1980 silver prices reached about $48 an ounce. Then, the regulators and the exchanges instituted “liquidation-only trading.” That is, traders were only allowed to close existing contracts; they could not establish any new positions. This forced traders (the Hunts and others) to exit the market as existing contracts became due, so that the manipulators could not continue to accrue large numbers of contracts and were gradually forced to withdraw from the market. The day after the rule was passed, silver prices fell by $12 per ounce, and by March 27, 1980, they fell to about $10 per ounce.

Market corners and squeezes are illegal, but hard to prove. In fact, the Hunts, their co-conspirators, and their brokers were sued, and a $200 million judgement was awarded. The brokers and Lamar Hunt paid about $34 million and $17 million, respectively. The remaining amounts were never collected, because the other parties declared bankruptcy.

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quote:

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Ya know...if nothing else good came out of the last Presidential election, the world now has a name to call the material that has been punched/perforated out of a larger piece of the same material...the Chad.

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quote:

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Cyan tracks stink

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And I always felt soundtrack developer had a nauseating smell.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-20-2004, 06:29 PM:
 
Although chads have "been around" for a long time, Daniel, Steve did say that "the world", meaning the United States of America of course, has a name to call them since a lot of people never knew what they were called or what they were, before the last presidential election.
 

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Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 04-20-2004, 07:23 PM:
 
Geez,

I wish that junked prints were recycled here in OZ.. it really bugs me to see piles and piles of film stacked up in dumper bins ready to go to landfill.
Lots of those are Hi Mag prints which I do not suppose would yield any silver but what about the stock material is that NOT able to re recycled???
Some distributors here do send the prints back (I am told) to USA for recycling... but the cost must be horrendous for just a pile of junked film.
I wonder why we do not have a plant here in Australia to at least recycle the stuff that we junk.
Titanic I believe had something like 400 prints here and now only about 10 remain... all that film in the landfill... will it ever break down??.
Lindsay
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-20-2004, 07:45 PM:
 
Lindsay Morris wrote:

quote: Lindsay Morris

---

Lots of those are Hi Mag prints which I do not suppose would yield any silver

---

quote: Larry V. Price

---

Can anyone advise me about the use of red readers with analog mono tracks, especially variable density tracks?

---

quote: Leo Enticknap

---

The only real problem were unilateral and RCA duplex VAs.

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quote: John Pytlak

---

...allow complete conversion to prints with cyan dye analog soundtracks, to take advantage of the environmental benefits...

---

John, just out of curiosity, what are the economical benefits to the distributor and/or film lab by having only cyan tracks?

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-09-2004, 06:09 PM:
 
No cost of application of the viscus developer and fewer reject prints due to misaplication and splatter
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-09-2004, 06:19 PM:
 
Ooops! Sorry. I mean in terms of real $$$.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-09-2004, 09:55 PM:
 
Phil: Ask your contacts at the labs. As Ted Costas wrote previously, soundtrack application problems are a significant cause of rejected prints, and some quality defects (silver splotches and bleeding, application skips) get to theatres, requiring replacement reels, and compromise show quality until the reels can be replaced. The soundtrack developer washoff is a major portion of the fresh water used in processing prints. Water and sewer costs vary with the locality, but municipalities often use these levies (based on water usage) to encourage conservation.

As you know from your experience with 70mm prints, eliminating silver soundtrack reapplication also allows simplifying the process by eliminating the first fixer and its wash.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-09-2004, 11:27 PM:
 
This whole issue could be solved by eliminating 35mm in favor of 70mm.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2004, 01:40 AM:
 

quote: Steve Kraus

---

This whole issue could be solved by eliminating 35mm in favor of 70mm.

---

I'll drink to that!!!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-10-2004, 02:05 AM:
 

quote: Stephen Furley

---

Leo, any idea why these [unilateral and RCA duplex VA] should have been worse than other types of VA tracks?

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quote: John Pytlak

---

Leo: Any chance the difference you heard with the unilateral tracks and the RCA duplex was due to the university's white light reader being a full width mono scan, vs. the arthouse's red light stereo (split) cell?

---

No, both cells were stereo. In fact, the A- and B- chain setups were almost identical in both venues (CP45 processors), apart from the exciter sources. I, too, would be interested to know what a red-lit mono cell would sound like, though. That having been said, I can't see how that would affect the reproduction of VD tracks, as (unless there was a serious grading/timing or developing problem with the track density) the two sides read by the left and right cells should in theory be virtually identical.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2004, 05:52 AM:
 
An ultraviolet exposing source would be quite efficient in exposing a film that is not orthochromatic or panchromatic, and sensitive only in the blue and ultraviolet. Narrow bandwidth UV also may be a little less prone to light scatter and any chromatic aberration in the exposing optics than a broad spectrum light source.

A narrow bandwidth red LED likewise would not suffer from any chromatic aberration in the optical system.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-10-2004, 06:26 AM:
 
Leo, I haven't run any unilateral prints with the separate shuttered GNR for years, and certainly never on red readers. What does a cinema processor do when working in mono mode? I would assume that it would add the signals from the two cells, giving something similar toa full-width mono reader. I don't know about the scanned areas of modern stereo optical systems, do the areas scanned by the two cells touch, or is there a gap between them which is not scanned? If there is, then I would imagine it could do nasty things to a unilateral track.

I've run plenty of duplex tracks, but I think they've all been on 16mm, and therefore read by mono, tungsten sound heads.

Yesterday I had my first experience with VD on red readers. They were either Jaxlights, or something very similar to them; not lasers or reverse scan.

The films were both Japaneese, Tokyo Story, from 1953 according to the programme booklet, was a normal black and white print, with obviously a silver track, which was rather narrower than normal. It wasn't a 'squeeze' type track. The print looked a bit dupey, but obviously wasn't new. Both negative ant positive edge prints were Fuji. The print was triacetate, and very brittle in places.

'Floating Weeds', from 1959, was a colour film, there was no edge print from the negative, that from the positive was Kodak, the modern magenta type. There was very little wear on the edges of the film, this was obviously a recently made print. The track was normal VD, with a blueish tint to it, I assume it was magenta+cyan+silver.

Both tracks played quite hapily, the sound quality wasn't what you would get from a modern SR track, but then you wouldn't expect it to be. I wasn't able to play these prints on conventional readers to make a comparison, there was certainly some noise to be heard, but the result wasn't obviously worse than I would have expected, and I doubt in the audience would have notice the difference, even if they have heard the film before. 'Floating Weeds' sounded better than almost all other 'colour' VD tracks that I have heard. Since, as I understand it, VD recording stock has not been made for many years, this track cannot have been re-recorded; it must have been printed from an original negative, or at least one several decades old. It certainly sounded good enough not to cause any major problems for a red-equipped cinema which occasionally runs this sort of thing.

I still haven't been able to hear VD on reverse scan. I have a request to make; is there anybody in the London area, who has reverse scan, and would be prepared to run a reel of VD for me to hear? The print I have in mind is a Technicolor IB print of a cartoon, which obviously has a silver track, and which I have heard before on conventional readers, so I know what it sounds like. I hasten to point out that it is a safety print!
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2004, 09:51 AM:
 
Standard SMPTE 40-2002 specifies the area scanned by the reproducer be 0.084 +/- 0.001 inches (2.13 +/- 0.03mm) wide for a mono reproducer.

Standard SMPTE 203-2003 specifies the same total scanning width, but with a 0.002 inch (0.05 mm) gap between the left and right channels for two track audio records.

With a unilateral track, areas with low modulation would likely fall on the "gap" between the stereo cells, where there is no sensitivity. And with slight misalignment, it would fall to one side or the other, and be quite problematic.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-10-2004, 11:35 AM:
 
But on the up side cinecolor prints will finally reproduce now that red readers are main stream as they had cyan only tracks and had very poor reproduction back in there day unless the theatre requiped with a red excitor and a special cell
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-10-2004, 05:41 PM:
 
John: Thank you for your "enlightening" post of telling me to go find it out for myself.

I would have thought as MR. LINK you could have at least supplied ONE link for me to pursue for an answer to my question. I guess I expected too much of you.

Also, since I was NEVER connected or involved with any of the lab end of things... I have NO "connections" as you seem to assume. It was a legitimate question with out any negative connotations. Too bad you don't understand that. I will research it all on my own and post what I find.

BTW: I read all of the other posts including Ted's post and I "get" all that stuff. I fail to see how that relates to my direct question.

>> Phil
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2004, 08:49 PM:
 
Phil: I do not speak for the laboratories or distributors. If you have a question about pricing or cost structure, you have to ask them yourself. Waste figures, contract terms, equipment speeds, sales volumes, etc., are often considered proprietary, and couldn't be shared publicly, even if I knew them.

I wouldn't ask you to betray the trust of your employers, vendors, or customers by disclosing proprietary information. Why do you expect me to?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-10-2004, 09:13 PM:
 
I'm not asking you to talk about any private info, you just seem to spout off about all things on all other "cyan" subjects so I natually assumed you had some insight to my question. Not a problem if you wish to keep that info "private". I understand. Thanks for being up-front about it.

I thought you had some info that might have been beneficial to us all... Guess not..and that's OK.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-10-2004, 09:29 PM:
 

quote: Phil Hill

---

you just seem to spout off about all things on all other "cyan" subjects

---

I can speak knowledgeably about the technology of cyan dye tracks, and why I believe it is the right thing to do.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-10-2004, 09:32 PM:
 
I agree John, cyan **is** the future and the "right" thing to do... But that has NOTHING to do with my question.

So, as I mentioned, I will do my own research.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-11-2004, 03:24 AM:
 

quote: Stephen Furley

---

Yesterday I had my first experience with VD on red readers.

---

quote: Stephen Furley

---

The films were both Japaneese, Tokyo Story, from 1953 according to the programme booklet, was a normal black and white print, with obviously a silver track, which was rather narrower than normal. It wasn't a 'squeeze' type track. The print looked a bit dupey, but obviously wasn't new. Both negative ant positive edge prints were Fuji. The print was triacetate, and very brittle in places.

---

This wasn't the much-hyped BFI rerelease was it? The posters said 'newly restored' and the like. Does this mean that reality is that they're circulating the same knackered old 1950s prints which were kicking around the NFT 12 years ago?

As for Dolby processors and mono, I too assumed that they just combined left and right into a single channel and applied the Academy curve. Presumably there has to be a slight gap between the two cells to enable alignment for accurate channel separation.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-11-2004, 07:09 PM:
 
knackered

Must be some English version of Scotchguard. Maybe Brad can get the USA rights.

(j/k)
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 05-12-2004, 01:46 AM:
 
Moving this over from the AC/DC thread out of consideration.

John Pytlak said:

quote:

---

The "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks have a cross-mod (XM)optimization density that is nearly the same for both tungsten light and red LED readers, so the tracks are more compatible with the MIX of readers out there now. The old (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks had to be XM optimized for one or the other, so the one they were not optimized for would have more cross-mod distortion.

If you optimize an old (cyan+magenta+silver) track for red LED readers, the tungsten readers will have less "fidelity" (more sibilant distortion). If you optimize the cross-mod of a B&W print silver track for a red LED reader, the old tungsten readers will have less "fidelity".

---

So to keep the optimization straight in practice:

What is the present penetration of silver-based tracks which are optimized for red LED readers? There were of course none before the cyan track initiative & the creation of the high-magenta soundtrack.
 

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Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 05-12-2004, 02:39 AM:
 
"Knackered" basically means something is crappy, torn up, worn out, or good for nothing.

For instance, I'm going to feel quite knackered after working a double shift with an 11:40 p.m. show of Troy.
 

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Posted by Peter Kerchinsky (Member # 1098) on 05-12-2004, 04:53 AM:
 
We're up to 37 pages on this cyan subject.
Is this some sort of record or what?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2004, 05:02 AM:
 
I guess you haven't been in the Joke-A-Thon forum.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-12-2004, 07:07 AM:
 
Leo, it certainly wasn't a new print, never mind a restoration. It didn't have the 'This print is from the NFTVA' caption on the beginning, and I didn't notice any BFI boxes. This place runs on 6000 foot spools, and the print was already made up, so I didn't see the labels on the cans. I do know that 'Floating Weeds' was from Delux Film Services, because I broke down the second half of the print yesterday, so I did see the cans and boxes.

I don't know if 'Tokyo Story' was a '50s print, I would have thought it was later than that, but I don't know for sure. Apart from the brittleness it was in good condition.

The 'Floating Weeds' print looked almost new, apart from where some bright spark had cut the leaders in different places, leaving one, and two ID frames. I had to remove one of these odd loose frames due to damage; not something that I like to do. This print was on modern Kodak stock. Does making new prints from VD track negs cause any complications for labs?

On Saturday I will be running M Hulot, I don't know what type of track it has.

Looking at the converted soundheads, I don't think they are Jaxlights after all, but I'm not sure what they are. They're not reverse scan though.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-12-2004, 08:52 PM:
 

quote: William Hooper

---

What is the present penetration of silver-based tracks which are optimized for red LED readers? There were of course none before the cyan track initiative & the creation of the high-magenta soundtrack.

---

AFAIK, most prints made with cyan+magenta+silver tracks are currently being optimized for red LED readers. So tungsten light readers may have a bit of sibilant distortion. Of course, many are using the more compatible "high magenta" (magenta+silver) tracks.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-12-2004, 10:53 PM:
 
Whoa, John!

That's a new claim, I think? The first I have heard.

You are saying that at some point, some distributors/labs started making "conventional" silver applicated prints that were XM optimized for red light rather than white light, instead of deciding to go to high-magenta, or staying with the status quo of white-light optimized silver?

I had thought we could assume that any non-high magenta silver print was optimized for white light (how naive!).

Please confirm I have not misunderstood you.

Is there a term for such red XM-optimized silver prints? Are they likely marked in any way? Any ways to identify them short of a densitometer on the 2-pop (is that good enough?) and/or comparing them across both reader types?

Wow.

(It was kind of a shock to discover that new prints were deliberately being made not high-magenta; it's even more of a shock to realize that the silver prints may be XM optimized for non-silver readers. )

--jhawk
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-13-2004, 05:41 AM:
 
I said "AFAIK", because I heard it second-hand. One of my fellow Kodak engineers visited one of the major sound houses in Hollywood. He noted that the cross-mod testing was mostly being done with red LED. It makes sense, if you realize that the vast majority of theatres are using red readers -- why would you optimize XM distortion for the small minority?

Unless something is written on the leader of the sound negative and printed through, I don't think there is specific identification.

I think some distributors were more comfortable staying with cyan+magenta+silver, optimized for the majority of theatres now using red readers, rather than use the "compromise" high-magenta tracks for the relatively short transition period to cyan dye tracks.
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 05-13-2004, 06:39 AM:
 
So in the absence of information provided as to when silver tracks began to be optimized for red readers, if the practice has been if a lab prints hig-magenta, it began to optimize silver tracks at the time of introduction of high-magenta tracks. It would be practical to assume that the change was made during setting up for high magenta.

1. When was the first high-magenta track released?

2. When did Research & Development start on high-magenta?

3. When was it proposed?

4. When was it used in limited test runs?

5. When was it put into standard use as an option for print runs?
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-13-2004, 09:55 AM:
 
You know, it is one thing for the industry to decide to make changes that determine what best suits their needs, but it is quite another to keep these changes which directly effect presentation quality as some kind of insider top secret.

There has been plenty of information disseminated about the white track changing over to the cyan track via a magenta intermediate (which in actuality was pretty much skipped). Those are changes that are clearly discernible to anyone handling a print. Now we are discovering, gee, that's not all; there are differently optimized tracks that could be either white or magenta! And what makes this significant is that one type of optimization will have a negative affect if played on certain equipment. To make things worse, unlike white, magenta and cyan tracks, you can't see these differently optimized tracks by looking at them. Yet, the industry seems to have introduced these differences with no identification whatsoever on the prints themselves!! I'd call that a serious, major breakdown in communication, no?

And where the hell was the SMPTE when all this was going down? It is bad enough there is an entire decade where intend aspect ratios were never printed into leader information, leaving art houses years later to guess, based on the date of the release, what plates and lenses should be used to play this picture to match the original intent as closely as possible. Likewise, there are lots of stereo prints out there that were birthed with no [STEREO] or [DOLBY STEREO] indication in the soundtrack leaders.

With the above, one is more of an aesthetics problem, with the other, a good magnifying glass and a little detective work on the track and you will be able to discover if you indeed have a stereo print or not. But here comes a parameter, XM optimization, which is totally undetectable by any visual inspection, yet the labs are making these changes incommunicado. Why wouldn't this fairly critical information be absolutely indicated on the print leaders? Do any of the entities involved with making these decisions really think theatres are going to have personnel who will, 1) take the time to test a print by ear to see which playback system sounds best, or 2) would be trained to be able to identify this by listening in the first place, or 3) be inclined to play detective at all?

IMHO, this is a serious breakdown in communication among the organizations within the industry, especially the SMPTE, to properly identify elements in a print that affect presentation. A simple line of frames in the soundtrack -- [XMO=RED] or [XMO=WHITE] -- would be all it would take for future handlers of the "interim" prints to know if they are going to get that nasty esssy distortion or not. It is quite shocking to me who naively assumed that the SMPTE, which I thought was the clearing house for exactly this kind of information, wouldn't have been ahead of the curve on this. If not by creating an additional subsection in the leader Standard to precisely address this, then would have at least issued a Recommended Practice for labs to indicate in some way, any way of their own choosing, how the soundtrack on a print has been XM optimized. Am I just being anal here, or is this not blatantly elementary?

quote:

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Any parameter that directly affects the configuration of the equipment needed to properly present a film should be indicated clearly and in easily understood text or graphics in the print leaders.

F. Angel

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From the previous discussion it can be seen that the industry switch to high-magenta applicated soundtracks is required for two very important reasons: first, the need to mitigate any diminished crossmod performance associated with the rapidly expanding use of red readers and, second, the need to facilitate the industry change-over to cyan dye tracks...

A five-part road map for the industry changeover to cyan dye tracks was presented at SMPTE'S First Annual Spring Film Conference and Exhibit, in March 1997. This road map, updated to reflect progress that has been made since then, calls for the following.

Changing over to high-magenta reapplicated analog soundtracks as quickly as possible. Thus far, much work has been done in this regard. To date, CFI, Deluxe, DuArt, Fotokem, and Technicolor have performed tests that verify there is essentially no difference in the audio quality derived from prints made with high-magenta soundtracks, as compared with prints made with conventional redeveloped silver tracks, whether they are played on tungsten or red readers. Work is currently going on in the area of high speed reproduction of high-magenta release prints.

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quote:

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High magenta prints are silver plus dye prints that have been made with filtration in the printer that puts most of the sound track image in the magenta dye layer. The advantage of this format is that it provides a single type of analog sound track that can be played, with low levels of sibilant (cross-modulation) distortion, on either standard IR sound readers, or the new red-light readers. It is thus a useful transition format. All laboratories are encouraged to convert to this format at their earliest convenience. More data on printer filtration and aim print densities are provided below. High-magenta prints continue to require soundtrack redeveloper application.

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quote: Gordon McLeod

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Firstly SMPTE has no legal authority to mandate anything all they provide is prepare a volentary set of guidlines called standards

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quote: William Hooper

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John: is there a SMPTE RP for XM distortion, & did silver tracks on red readers achieve its recommendation?

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quote:

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A conventional silver print, played back on a red LED reader, will not display the same crossmod cancellation characteristics as it would if it were reproduced on a standard tungsten reader. Figure 3 shows that a silver track read on a tungsten reader will display good crossmod cancellation when the negative employed to print the track has a density of 2.18 optical density units (O.D.). The same track needs to be printed from a negative with a 2.6-O.D. density if it is to display good crossmod cancellation when reproduced on a red LED reader.

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quote:

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Fortunately, there is a sound negative density, in conjunction with a print color balance, that will produce a release print capable of playing equally well, in terms of crossmod cancellation on both tungsten and red LED readers. This print is called a "high-magenta" applicated print and requires a negative density of ~2.7 O.D. with a print color balance of 1.09 IR, 1.44 Y, 2.02 C, 3.82 M. Figure 4 shows the crossmod results from such a print.

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quote: John Pytlak

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AFAIK, most prints made with cyan+magenta+silver tracks are currently being optimized for red LED readers.

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quote: John Pytlak

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I said "AFAIK", because I heard it second-hand. One of my fellow Kodak engineers visited one of the major sound houses in Hollywood. He noted that the cross-mod testing was mostly being done with red LED.

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I stand corrected --- cyan+magenta+silver tracks are normally optimized for white light or IR readers. I double checked with our Hollywood office, and they were told the following:

quote:

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...here is how we read the Xmod Tests

Silver Tracks - White or IR Reader

High Magenta - Red and IR Reader - Check for compatibility. If there is a difference we lean toward the cancellation for the RED Reader

Cyan - Red Reader

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quote:

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...this is how we are doing the XMOD tests. Silver tracks are only compatible with white or IR readers. Optimizing silver tracks for RED would be a painful experience in terms of educating the post and distribution community.

All of this nonsense regarding XMOD will obviously be much easier once there is cyan only printing worldwide. One track - one reader - simple.

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Moral of the story --- never trust your "fellow engineer" to get every detail right from just taking a tour of a lab. They were probably doing "high magenta" tracks at the time.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-18-2004, 02:43 PM:
 
This article is from the May 2004 issue of NATO In-Focus Magazine:

http://www.infocusmag.com/04may/tech.htm

quote:

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MGM First To Use Cyan Soundtracks On All Titles

LOS ANGELES – With the May 28 release of “Soul Plane,” MGM will become the first major motion picture distributor to release all of its titles in the environmentally friendly cyan-dye analog soundtrack format.

The move follows DreamWorks’ Sept. 19 release of the Jason Biggs-Christina Ricci romantic comedy “Anything Else,” the first feature to to be distributed exclusively on dye-only prints (In Focus, September 2003).

Cyan-dye-only soundtracks are produced without the caustic chemicals and silver used in the usual print manufacturing process and significantly reduce water usage. Silver-replicated tracks collectively use approximately 20 million gallons of water a year – enough drinking water for a town of 75,000. Distributors further reduce waste by eliminating the need to replace prints due to redevelopment problems in silver soundtracks.

“MGM is proud to be in the forefront of this landmark change in film soundtracks, and to be taking a significant step in improving the environment,” said Chris Aronson, MGM executive vice president and general sales manager.

Conversion to cyan requires the installation of red light-emitting diode (LED) readers in projectors, as a pure cyan soundtrack played on a white light or infrared reader will cause distortion, sound reduction or possible inaudibility. It is estimated that the vast majority of the projectors in the United States are now equipped with the red LED readers, according to an MGM press release.

The studio’s release of these prints marks a significant breakthrough in making the conversion to pure cyan a reality for NATO, which has worked closely with the Dye Track Committee, a group of motion picture executives formed in 1998, in the fight to replace silver tracks with pure cyan dye tracks.

LEDs also last about five times longer than tungsten lights, and slowly fade over time, giving operators warning that replacement is due.

“We are grateful for MGM’s leadership, and delighted that the studios are taking advantage of the theatres’ shift to red-light readers,” said NATO president John Fithian. “This demonstrates that the film industry as a whole has an environmental conscience.”

Digital soundtracks do not require silver replication and are thus not affected by the new process.

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quote: John Pytlak

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SMPTE Recommended Practice RP104 specifies XM distortion measurements

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quote: John Pytlak

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...this is how we are doing the XMOD tests. Silver tracks are only compatible with white or IR readers. Optimizing silver tracks for RED would be a painful experience in terms of educating the post and distribution community.

All of this nonsense regarding XMOD will obviously be much easier once there is cyan only printing worldwide. One track - one reader - simple.

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quote: William Hooper

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Since the "one track" part of the above is erroneous, at what point should there be an expectation of silver tracks optimized for red readers?

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quote:

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This document has been divided into several sections to maintain simplicity and to separate the functional and hardware segments from the theories of cross-modulation testing....If a negative containing both music and voice passages is printed onto a print film at several different densities over the range from 1.0 to 1.6, the average listener may find the quality of music fairly acceptable over the whole range. Some of the voice passages, however, will contain an excessive amount of sibilant distortion.1 That is, many of the sibilant speech sounds (s, sh, ch, z, etc.) and some of the voiced and voiceless stop sounds (B, P, and T) will be distorted and spitty.

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quote: William Hooper was the last to post

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...this is how we are doing the XMOD tests. Silver tracks are only compatible with white or IR readers. Optimizing silver tracks for RED would be a painful experience in terms of educating the post and distribution community.

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the result would have to be exactly as it is. The fact that the incmopatibility problems between the soundtrack types arose not just across prints but in this case in one print is not strange, just funny.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-20-2004, 07:34 AM:
 
The point is, B&W silver image tracks CAN be XM optimized for a red light reader, but for now, are evidently still being optimized for white light. When all are red light, that will change. Change can be difficult, but at least for color prints, "high magenta" tracks allowed a compromise to ease the transition.
 

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Posted by Angel Hultzsch (Member # 1058) on 05-23-2004, 08:07 PM:
 
Hi i have a doubt, is all the red led capable to read the cyan track?, the laser reader too? . Here in Venezuela we have Christie P35GPS M35GPS/ Simplex Millenium/ Prevost P60 and P93(whit SR laser reader) and Century, are this readers ready for the Cyan Track.
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 05-24-2004, 01:44 AM:
 
Just caught up on the endless discussion of cyan/red LED. In particular the questions about silver (b/w) or conventional (redeveloped blue), and high-magenta tracks on tungsten or red readers.

It seems to me that the reason that high-magenta tracks were introduced was because the dye tracks committee recognised that there would be a cross-over period in which tracks would have to work on both tungsten and red readers. The high magenta track was found to be the best solution to this, so that a high-magenta print is not optimised for tungsten OR red, but is in a safe area for both.

As far as b/w (silver) tracks are concerned, do they needed different densities for best X-mod results on red or tungsten readers? I haven't done a comparison myself, but theory suggests to me that because there is only one track image (silver) and it absorbs all colours and IR, then the performance probably wouldn't vary much with the reader sensitivity. In other words, one track might suit all readers. This is speculation though. Has anyone done these tests?

But here's a question. What started all this? Was it a complaint from theatres that had installed red LED readers back in the mid-90s that their analogue soundtracks were sounding like crap? My understanding is that no-one had bothered to notice this until the original Paul Goldberg paper (presented 97, published 98). Without that initiative, we might have a much worse situation today.

It also seems to me that while the high magenta track made time for the changeover, and brought immediately improved results to the theatres with the newest (red) readers, it's had the negative effect of allowing the changeover to be postponed for several years, adding to the confusion and the proliferation of aims and setups. A cold turkey change might, on reflection, have been a cleaner way to go, though harder on the theatres at the time. Can't win.

Finally, someone asked a good question. Where was SMPTE ? The dye track committee isn't an official SMPTE committee as far as I know: but I would suggest that as a result it has been far MORE able to issue recommendations than an official SMPTE committee (bound by statutory requirements as a national standards body) would have been. I'm sure there are a couple of people on this list who know how long it takes for SMPTE to publish and approve a standard:-(
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-24-2004, 07:02 AM:
 
I know that our first encounter with bad sounding visible red readers was customer based, not our findings, initially. It wasn't until further digging that the inadequacies of the red reader showed itself on various fronts.

Steve
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-24-2004, 07:31 AM:
 
My first bad encounter was with IR readers reading the residual print wash causing a breathing noise in several system
None of that with the visable red readers
As to the laser question they are compatable with Cyan tracks
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-24-2004, 09:32 AM:
 
ISO/TC36 has already begun the standardization process for red readers and cyan dye tracks. A ballot is in circulation:

ISO/DIS 20859 Cinematography - Spectral response of photographic audio reproducers for analog dye sound tracks on 35 mm film

Most of the cyan dye track committee participants are members of SMPTE Engineering Committees. In particular, there has been lots of representation from the SMPTE P3, L6, and A12 committees, and considerable discussion in the monthly meetings of the Study Group on Audio Production and Post Production for Motion Picture and Television Entertainment Programming, SMPTE A12.68.

Although silver image B&W tracks are spectrally neutral, and theoretically should not optimize differently on tungsten and red light readers, the image spread characteristics of the print could vary with the specularity of the reader, and affected by any chromatic aberration in the reader optics. Good engineering practice would be to optimize XM for the type of reader in the majority of theatres.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-24-2004, 09:57 AM:
 
So there are no issues with crossmod distortion optimization with B&W prints? These tracks will play equally well on red-light or white-light readers? If so, this is very good news for repertory houses. Presumably, the same would apply to IB Tech prints as well, correct?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-24-2004, 10:51 AM:
 
As I noted, good practice would be to optimize XM for the type of reader being used in the majority of theatres. Jess Daily of the UCLA Archive reported no significant difference between red and tungsten readers with a variety of old B&W tracks he played, but Steve Guttag notes his customers have had issues with some old prints on red readers.

As noted before, any reverse scan reader (IR or red) may be more sensitive to surface dirt or track wear, since they are more specular. Reverse scan readers generally offer better sound quality when the soundtrack is in good condition.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-25-2004, 03:34 PM:
 
Forgive me if this has been answered, but 39 pages of the same things being said over and over was too much.

Is MGM going to start releasing cyan trailers this month?
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-25-2004, 03:59 PM:
 
"Is MGM going to start releasing cyan trailers this month?"

It was effectively answered: No. Playability of trailers on all screens is viewed as more important, and trailers are likely to be the last thing to convert.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-25-2004, 05:52 PM:
 
I figured that would be the attitude. Advertising is far more important than the actual PRODUCT which people will be PAYING TO SEE!

Idiots.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-26-2004, 05:50 AM:
 

quote: John Pytlak

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As I noted, good practice would be to optimize XM for the type of reader being used in the majority of theatres. Jess Daily of the UCLA Archive reported no significant difference between red and tungsten readers with a variety of old B&W tracks he played, but Steve Guttag notes his customers have had issues with some old prints on red readers.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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But the major archives, sitting on tens of thousands of existing b/w comopt 35mm release prints, are still going to have one heck of a problem.

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So, since you have lots of experience with archived prints, what have you found when you play them on a red LED reader, other than the very specific incidents of the unilateral and RCA duplex VAs you mentioned before?

I venture to say that theatres with red LED readers are successfully playing old B&W prints and cyan+magenta+silver track color prints every day.

Playing a mono unilateral track on with ANY stereo reader is likely to be an issue because the gap between the cells lines up with the bias line of the track.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-26-2004, 02:02 PM:
 
This all hinges entirely on the definition of 'successfully'. As has been noted in earlier posts, it's not that they won't play at all (by which I mean that you can't reproduce an audible soundtrack using a red reader), but rather that the subjective quality of the reproduction is often much lower. The s/n ratio and dynamic range are lower, pops and crackles are amplified, the effects of dirt and scratching (including negative dirt and scratching printed through) are more apparent, and red readers are generally a lot less forgiving to a wide range of defects.

If you accept that old mono soundtracks sound thin and hissy full stop, you probably won't perceive any defect at all. But if you know that an RCA duplex track from the late '40s should sound a lot richer and be able to reproduce far more sophisticated mixing than, say, a Visatone-Marconi VD track from the early '30s, you're likely to be disappointed when you hear the latter resembling the former.

One important point is that because they've been looked after carefully, only ever loaned to venues run by professionals and been subject to strict film handling rules (e.g. no chopping the heads and tails off), archive release prints are often a lot older than even mainstream theatrical rerelease prints. It's not uncommon to get a print struck in the '60s or '70s which, from the wear and tear it's received, gives the impression of being an almost new element. But the re-recording and printing processes used by archives weren't as good then as they are now (I once saw a demo in which a 1960s reprint and the 1990s restoration of The Third Man were shown side-by-side, with the sound flicking between the two, and it was astonishing), and sometimes those elements have shrunk a bit, too.

All of these issues taken together, IMHO, tend to degrade the overall playback experience when a 'legacy' optical track is put through a red reader. I suppose it's similar to the difference between a 78rpm shellac record played through a modern magnetic cartridge and transistor amp versus a steel needle, ribbon cartridge and valve amp.

A lot of people won't be able to hear any difference - but of course the people who are likely to want to see 35mm archive prints projected on a screen are the people who are most likely to care about such things. I suppose that gradually, over time, the problem will correct itself as new archival viewing copies are made with their tracks optimised for red readers; but for all except the most popular titles, that isn't going to happen overnight.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-26-2004, 02:48 PM:
 
Some of the issues you mention are related to the more specular illumination of modern reverse scan readers, both IR and red LED, which are more sensitive to surface abrasions and dirt (but usually better for channel separation and frequency response).

The issues between red and IR LEDs are primarily that of XM optimization, and quantum efficiency (getting enough light and sensitivity for a good signal at reasonable LED current).
 

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Posted by David Ingalsbe (Member # 2433) on 06-21-2004, 02:47 AM:
 
Brad, my apologies for posting in the wrong place.

Gordon, My issue is not with the actual cyan conversion but with how they are doing it. It feels like the boy who cried wolf

quote:

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MGM chose to use the random dual inventory on "Soul Plane" so they could have some silver+dye track prints for overseas.

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<start rant>
The studios are deciding to convert to cyan tracks for the enviorment but every time a studio decides to convert they end up backing down. It's like they do plan to do it but before they release the print they fell like it will lose them money.
cars have been going though this as well. Gas bad, need alturnitive, but there is no alt. fuel inferstructure so we can't make alt fuel cars. They need to stop farting around and pick one; both cars and sound tracks.
<end rant>

I don't know maybe I am sick of the notes from studios on this that don't happen. or maybe I need to relax a little.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-21-2004, 09:29 AM:
 
More
Rome wasn't built in a day and conversion doesn't happen overnight
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-21-2004, 02:01 PM:
 
True - but neither was it dragged out over almost a decade (and still counting). Two other examples - the conversion to sound, from the first screenings of The Jazz Singer to the last major Hollywood silent feature being produced, took a little under three years. The nitrate to safety conversion was even quicker - Kodak first marketed triacetate in October 1948 and ceased manufacturing nitrate in February 1950.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-21-2004, 02:06 PM:
 
I wonder, since today there are still cinemas which show movies in all sorts of wrong ways - cropped aspect ratios, mono sound etc - if there was a time when cinemas showed sound movies without sound. Maybe they could get away with it for a while since the audience wasn`t used to sound.
 

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Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 06-21-2004, 02:26 PM:
 
How long did it take to build Rome? We may need that info for the D-Cinema roll-out model.

Brad asked about trailers in Cyan. I think the answer is not based on the theory that advertising is more important than the product for sale... For instance, on "Soul Plane", New Line had a trailer that went out with that movie that was a cyan trailer. New Line still has yet to delacare their intentions regarding the switch to cyan, but if their trailer is on a feature that has cyan tracks, they have elected to also release the trailer with cyan tracks. Most studios feel the same way. If the feature is has silver-applicated analog tracks, so will the trailers... and so far the same goes for cyan. I don't think you will ever see cyan trailers on a silver-applicated feature.

Remember, the studios, like the exhibitors, want to release films successfully, with the least amount of variables possible. To date, the release patterns for cyan analog tracks by DreamWorks, MGM, and soon, Disney, will be logical and based on the red-light reader penetration in the markets and territories that the film will play in.

If we wanted this effort to fail, then we'd release cyan trailers on silver-applicated features, to see what would happen... I know what would happen. But causing headaches is not part of the implementation plan... a smooth transition is.

Regarding "crying wolf", if the wolf shows up, we're cool, right? Well, if you play MGM or Disney films, you will get plenty of chances to see the wolf, the cyan wolf, before the end of the year.

And with that, I have run out of witty one-liners.

Yours, Ted
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-21-2004, 07:33 PM:
 
I don't think anyone was suggesting including cyan trailers with silver prints. I think the idea was to ship some independent trailers with cyan tracks so that people could assure themselves that everything is ready to go for cyan. They wouldn't necessarily have to be for a cyan release although that would, of course, make a great deal of sense. Since there are, as yet, apparently no generally available test films in cyan a trailer would serve to demonstrate cyan playback.

It would also serve your aim of encouraging conversion by putting the fear of God...I mean cyan...on those who have not converted. There is no better proof of the incompatibility of cyan with white light than trying to play it and better to have awful or inaudible sound for 3 minutes than 2 hours. There would be an explanatory note or sticker with the trailer. With your picture, Ted.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-21-2004, 07:37 PM:
 
I think Ted could be a special new LAD boy

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-21-2004, 10:46 PM:
 
I don't see any reason for providing a theatre with a cyan test of any form
if you have a red reader it will play if you don't well hmmmmmmm
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-22-2004, 11:42 AM:
 
If you have a red reader, the cyan dye tracks will play as well as a conventional dye+silver analog track. If you have a "white light" tungsten reader, you will have low signal level (about -11dB) and a noisy playback when you increase the gain to compensate.

Performance of cyan dye tracks has been exactly as predicted by the SMPTE papers.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-22-2004, 01:01 PM:
 
The levels will match because they are made to match, not because of some inherent equality in all of this. Which is to say that there is the possibility they might not. Therefore a tone loop in cyan would be nice to have. Also to see if it declines in level over time with fading.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-22-2004, 01:56 PM:
 
Steve makes a good point--how often does one need to re-set Dolby levels with the LED readers?

The usual rule with white-light readers (at least as I understood it) is once every month or so plus whenever the exciter lamp is replaced. Does the once-per-month guideline still apply?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-22-2004, 04:31 PM:
 
With white light readers...the stability was a function of the lamp, the cell and the power supply.

In the day of un-regulated power supplies for exciter lamps...if you measured Dolby-Tone at different parts of the day you would get different levels.

Another thing with solar cells is cell fatigue...if you let the exciter lamp burn with no film loaded...the cell will fatigue and the level will be lower than if you leave the exciter lamps off when not in use...as I recall it took several minutes to fatigue and about as long to recover...it has been a while since I did any experiments on this.

As to IR LED...they have shown to be stable with respect to Dolby-Level over years of use.

With visible red LED...the light stability is all over the place. Typically, in the first 1000 hours of use you will find the LED intensity will diminish at its fastest rate...how much current you are feeding it seems to set the speed. After that point it seems to settle down a bit.

I have also had visible red LEDs that seemed rather consistant for 1000s of hours and then just dropped like a rock (I call them marathon LEDs...and you never know when you are going to get one of them).

The freakiest one of them all are the ones that actually GAIN intensity over time...speaking with Tom Moore of Kelmar a few years ago...I'm not the only one to witness this one. In fact, I just came across one.

So as to how often to check level...when ever you think about it. At least once per month is a good idea but don't be surprised if on a week-to-week basis nothing changes or if you have radical changes. There is no rhyme or reason to it and I'm sure you will find that different systems have different stabilities based on how much current is used to light the LED and how well it is heat sinked and such.

Then again, getting Dolby-Tone film that stable from one batch to the next is also a factor to consider.

Steve
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-22-2004, 08:56 PM:
 
"The levels will match because they are made to match, not because of some inherent equality in all of this. Which is to say that there is the possibility they might not. Therefore a tone loop in cyan would be nice to have. Also to see if it declines in level over time with fading."Steve they will match by the same leap of faith that regular soundtracks match
or maybe they should do what I propossed on mag stuff tones recorded on the head and noise on the tails
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-23-2004, 12:01 AM:
 
So far I haven't been able to convince the hmfic of the need to convert. He claims that cyan incompatability with our exciter lamps is B.S. Does anybody have enough of a cyan track for me to use to show him? A few feet to make a loop. E mail me if you do. Thanks Bill
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 06-23-2004, 06:46 AM:
 
He's a doofus! Just get him on the phone or email with John Pytlak!

quote:

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Customer Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Eastman Kodak Company
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Use the big hammer!
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 06-24-2004, 01:45 AM:
 
I believe this is post number 600 in this thread and I claim the prize

There is a weakness with any proposal to send out cyan trailers: theatres that are so far unconverted are unlikely to do anything for a 3-minute trailer, but they might sit up and take notice if 100 minutes of program plays badly.

In any event, trailers tend to be mixed quite loud (that's a whole different topic, please don't go there on this thread) so I'd expect a number of the unconverted theatres to not notice the 11db loss or to regard it as an improvement!

People on this list are excluded from the above generalisations - I think all film-tech readers must be aware of the issue by now.

Meanwhile, we have 50% tone loops in cyan available for known non-LED theatres in our market region (Australia & NZ) which should be enough to prove to anyone whether their projector can handle cyan track correctly. We've already distributed short demo reels of high magenta & cyan tracks (through Kodak and local labs) throughout the Australiasian region.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-24-2004, 04:10 AM:
 

quote: Dominic Case

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I believe this is post number 600 in this thread and I claim the prize

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quote: John Pytlak

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We already have a film on the market to show the effect of the cyan track. It's a voice only film that begins on silver, and then splices to cyan, about 150 feet long. The number is Cat. No. No. 764, and it sells for $75. It's available from any Dolby equipment dealer.

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-25-2004, 11:22 AM:
 
Next feature with cyan dye analog tracks will be "Sleepover" from MGM, which opens in the USA on July 9.
 

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Posted by David Ingalsbe (Member # 2433) on 06-25-2004, 01:35 PM:
 
confermed, We are running a sneak peek of this today. Its wierd not having the magenta sound track. The attanched trailer was also printed in cyan.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-26-2004, 09:02 PM:
 
Cut it off and send it to Scott!
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-14-2005, 05:15 PM:
 

quote: John Pytlak

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One idea would be to book "Anything Else" from Dreamworks. I think Dolby has some test footage, as well as the "Red Alert" film in the UK that was available from the BKSTS.

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'Red Alert' was shown at the Bradford Film Festival yesterday during a session which included various interesting odds and ends; it is the only cyan track which I have so far seen or heard. I've run a couple of 2005 films now, plus trailers for several more. High magenta tracks now seem to be the most common on recent films, but still no cyan. Most small, independant cinemas that I've seen in recent times do now seem to have converted.

It was run on the DP-70 as this is normally used for 70mm on the curved screen, and has not been converted to red. There was certainly a significant reduction in sound level at the point of the change to cyan, but wasn't as noisy at I thought it might be. I'm not sure what it would have sounded like if the gain had been turned up to restore the original sound level.
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 03-14-2005, 05:22 PM:
 
Anyone care to confirm that "Robots" does not have a Cyan analog track?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-14-2005, 06:42 PM:
 
Why don't you look for yourself?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-14-2005, 10:39 PM:
 
Where did you hear that "Robots" would have a cyan track? AFAIK, 20th Century Fox has not yet decided when they will convert.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 03-15-2005, 01:06 AM:
 
If the transition to cyan never takes place can we sue the bastards to recover the money wasted?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-15-2005, 09:09 AM:
 
The transition is taking place. But not as fast as it should have.
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 03-15-2005, 12:13 PM:
 
Oops, sorry, didn't think of Reel ID. Thanks.

I had someone else ask me the question, and since I didn't have a print to look at, I had to forward the question.
 

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Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 03-15-2005, 07:11 PM:
 
Received 4 Trls for Hitchhikers Guide To The Glaxy with Cyan Tracks,fist time I have seen it comercially only seen samples of it in the past.We are running them and the results seem ok cant tell of any difference.Running Kinoton FP50D's with Red Led readers.

Steve
 

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Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 03-16-2005, 07:01 PM:
 
Recieved our 1st cyan feature yesterday from BVI, The Pacifier so things starting to happen here in Australia,Print was done by Atlab in Sydney I presume (perhaps Dominic can confirm this?
) so it will be a first rate print as SR.D allways has a error rate of 0-1 when printed by Atlab never had anything with high error rate from them.

cheers,

Stephen
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 03-17-2005, 06:31 PM:
 

quote: Stephen Jones

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The Pacifier so things starting to happen here in Australia,Print was done by Atlab in Sydney I presume (perhaps Dominic can confirm this?
) so it will be a first rate print

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Yes I can confirm all of your points Stephen.

Things are starting to happen here in Australia at last.
The Pacifier will be the first title that we are printing in cyan - for Australia & NZ. Hitchhikers Guide will be the same when it comes out. No word from other distributors yet.

Previous BVI releases in Australia this year have all been used prints from pre-2005 US releases, so before the BVI switch to cyan.) But hopefully everyone got the flyer from BVI late last year ("Are you ready?")

And yes to your last point too - thanks
 

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Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 03-17-2005, 08:58 PM:
 
My first cyan track today. Nobody asked, but I'm in favor of this change if it means better quality control - I've seen enough badly-developed tracks that make odd thumping noises and don't need to see any more.

One advantage of red light readers that nobody mentioned, on this thread at least, is that you can do any splice blooping with a plain blue or black Sharpie pen - throw away that roll of special infrared-impermeable blooping tape. I'm not taking this on faith, I did a test.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-17-2005, 09:44 PM:
 
Yes, any ink that blocks red light can be used for blooping cyan tracks. With tungsten "white light" or IR LED, you need to use an ink that is opaque to infrared (e.g., uses carbon black pigments like India Ink).

[ 03-18-2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: John Pytlak ]
 

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Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 03-20-2005, 04:23 PM:
 
The Pacifier arrived at my theater this week with Cyan Track. This is the first cyan print I've projected at the Roxy. I was told in November of 1997 when I purchased new projection equipment that I would be needing the red light reader soon. I never dreamed it would take seven and a half years for my extra investment to be necessary! Now its just a backup since I converted to DTS years ago.
Steve
 

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Posted by Mike Spaeth (Member # 524) on 03-20-2005, 05:39 PM:
 
We have 5 CYAN prints sitting in my building right now ...

Hostage
The Pacifier
Cursed
The Ring Two (2 Prints)
 

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Posted by Dick Twentyman (Member # 2746) on 03-21-2005, 05:20 AM:
 
Mike,

Interesting that you have two prints of "The Ring 2" with cyan tracks. Our print is not cyan. Why would the studio print some with cyan track and some without. Seems a bit odd!
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-21-2005, 05:34 AM:
 

quote:

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Why would the studio print some with cyan track and some without. Seems a bit odd!

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