Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton FP 38 Experiences?

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Posted by Ryan Henry (Member # 1704) on 07-21-2003, 06:10 PM:

Hello, I'm working on setting up a projection booth an a great old theater. It's going to show mostly classic and foreign films, along with some independent offerings, some of which will be in 16mm. The only projector that I've found that can handle both 35mm and 16mm gauge is the Kinoton FP 38. I'm specifically looking at the FP 38 E-S, which is set up for variable speed running out of the box (at least it sounds like it from the little data I've found).

Has anyone had any experience with these projectors? Any other dual-gauge projectors? There isn't room in the booth to house separate 35mm and 16mm projectors/lamphouses/etc.
Thanks for your help!

Ryan

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-21-2003, 10:41 PM:

email me with any specific or ordering questions you may have. Or if you have general questions post them here...

I sell, install a service a far number of Kinoton FP-38E projectors, including the the FP-38E-S. You should note, the "S" is also a reverse running machine (shuttle only) in addition to variable speed. The "S" also has a real nifty feature of a magnetic clutch flywheel for the sound drum and accellerator. The sound drum NEVER slips against the film. The flywheel is sped/slowed to the speed of the drum and when the two match, the clutch is engaged.

The FP-38E (with any of the various suffixes) put out some of the finest 16 or 35mm pictures you will ever see. Their sound reproduction (16 or 35) are second to none too. In fact, the 16mm soundhead is better than most 35mm soundheads. The reel torque motors are also a marvel. They maintain a constant tension on the film regardless of how full or empty the reel is.

If you are going to deal with 16mm, 35mm and Silent films (variable speed) then the FP-38E is THE projector to choose...it is in a class by itself.

Steve

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-22-2003, 04:39 AM:

I can confirm everything Steve said. We used FP-38Es at the Berlin International Film Festival. They were a lot of fun to work with and they delivered excellent quality.
The 16mm soundhead is on top of the projectorhead so the sound goes into a digital delay where you can select different offsets and you can play optical and magnetic 16mm soundtracks.
It only takes a couple of minutes to convert them from 16 to 35, so they are ideal for festival action.
And yes, the screens in which they were installed also played 35mm multiplex program the rest of the year, and the projectors had no problem with the daily "grind" either.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-22-2003, 12:01 PM:

Ther ernemann 15 is available as a dual format 435/16 projector as well

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-23-2003, 07:01 AM:

There are also the older philips/Kinoton machines, I can't remember the model numbers now, which are basicall a right-handed 35mm machine and a left-handed 16mm one mounted back to back. Two separate mechanisms, but they don't take a great deal more space than an normal one, and certainly less than two. The Barbican Cinemas had them, but I think they may have been replaced, with separate lamps for each gauge, and the Rio, Dalston had one with a single lame with a movable mirror system to direct the light to one side or the other. I don't know how the cost of buying these secondhand would compare with buying a new FP-38. I know they were expensive when new.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2003, 07:58 AM:

The machines you refer to are the FP-26, FP-28 and FP-38 (no E on the suffix though they did make it up to D).

There are several reasons to think about new on this one if 16mm is desired. The older 16mm projectors only can accept the smaller lens barrels (42.7mm) this will severely limit your choice of lenses...in fact, there is only one that I'd recommend and that is the ISCO Vario-Kiptaron 20-60mm...it rivals just about anybody's lens for any format but it is pricey.

The other issue would be sound. The Kinoton 16mm soundhead can do a wonderful job but it does require constant upkeep to keep everything lubed just right for the proper damping.

The Kinonton FP-38E, on the other hand, can accept either the 42.7mm diameter lenses or the vastly more popular 70.6mm diameter lenses (or even the 101.6mm diameter lenses or PC offset adapters). The sound on the FP-38E for 16mm is phenominal.

Steve

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 08:13 AM:

Steve wrote:

quote:
Their sound reproduction (16 or 35) are second to none too. In fact, the 16mm soundhead is better than most 35mm soundheads.

quote:
The sound on the FP-38E for 16mm is phenominal.

Doesn't this projector use reverse scan red LED readers for the analog sound?: [Smile]

http://www.kinotonamerica.com/fp30e.htm

Or do you retrofit them with old tungsten exciter lamps? [Wink]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-23-2003, 08:44 AM:

Nice projector, but not going to be cheap.

Does it still have the controls in a silly place, like the FP-30D, where you have to reach down and around to the front of the machine to do a changeover with your head too low to see through the viewing port?

That, the lamp striking on the motor start, and at least on the ones I used recently a horrible ACOP system which if you're not very careful will shut down as you start a machine are the only things I don't like, and they could all be so easily fixed.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2003, 09:25 AM:

Actually, I have several FP-38Es that have had their visible red LEDs changed to IR due to complaints about the visible red incompatability with older tracks. The 16mm sound uses a traditional exciter lamp.

Actually, John, most of the theatres I service are indeed cyan ready, better than the national average...however the ones that tend to have the 35/16 machines also tend to run a lot of older films and have had issues with the red light readers. It is this reason that I am probably more upset over the red-light reader and its shortcomings than others with just conventional multiplex theatres. I deal with a very broad spectrum of users.

Steve

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 07-23-2003, 09:44 AM:

FP30 / 38 control box is moveable. Fixing holes all over projector. Mine is on the wall in front of me.

p.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 10:02 AM:

Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:
I have several FP-38Es that have had their visible red LEDs changed to IR due to complaints about the visible red incompatability with older tracks.

You've mentioned that before, which contradicts Jess Daily's evaluation of older prints and red LED readers at the UCLA Film Archive. Specifically what TYPE of "older tracks" had complaints? B&W, EASTMAN Color, other color, dye-transfer? Variable density or variable area? What was the complaint -- sibilant distortion, other distortion, noise?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-23-2003, 12:44 PM:

John,

You've mentioned Jess Daily's evaluation before; last night I went hunting and could find no clear documentation or references to it other than your own. Is it published or available? Since you know Jess, would you mind asking him for a copy on our behalf?

Certainly, it seems to fly in the face of what we have heard in the Goldberg paper, which I think we can all agree, is not an anti-cyan document. Specifically, surely Goldberg et al would not have argued for the deployment of hi-magenta merely to give the labs something to practice cyan OD targetting on, right? [Confused]

I thought the driving force behind hi-magenta was that silver tracks just did not sound good (2dB down in gain, 20dB down in XM) with red readers.

Can you give us an authoritative reference, please? Thanks!

--jhawk

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-23-2003, 01:32 PM:

AFAIK, Jess Daily tested a variety of old print sound formats available in the UCLA Film Archive, making digital recordings of the playback both on a tungsten light reader and a red LED reader. CD-R copies of the comparative tests were circulated to members of the Dye Track Committee, and I believe a report was written by Jess (I do not have a copy). You can contact Jess directly. He is listed in the SMPTE Membership Directory.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-23-2003, 02:41 PM:

Thanks, John. I've inquired.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-23-2003, 05:54 PM:

Any future discussion of this (red reader on conventional tracks) should move over to the dye track thread since it is not an FP-38 issue (the thread topic).

The tracks that were offensive were normally color applicated tracks, I believe...and which ones were more offensive could not be predicted. There was one reported with a density track that was considered to be unplayable with the red reader but quite fine with the IR reader. I don't have the specifics on the color of the density track though I don't think it was a B&W.

My findings...really my customer's findings are based on their experiences and do not support Jess' findings. From a purely theoretical standpoint, Jess' findings are not supported by the physics of the process.

While I haven't heard the unplayable film myself, I have heard a wide variety of conventional films from the '80s that sounded horrible with red but pleasing with IR...the red reader exhibited XM distortion that kinda sounds like clipping in a harsh manner.

Steve