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Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-02-2003, 12:14 AM:
 
Theatres That *Were* Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) 1990-91

NORTH AMERICA

California:
Century City: AMC Century 14 (2 screens)
Corte Madera: Pacific's Cinema
Emeryville: UA Emery Bay
Hollywood: Mann's Chinese
Hollywood: Pacific's Cinerama Dome
La Mesa: Pacific's Grossmont Trolley
Lakewood: Pacific's Lakewood Center
Lakewood: Pacific's Regency 8
Marina del Rey: UA Cinema
Newport Beach: Edwards Newport
Pasadena: Pacific's Hastings
San Diego: UA Horton Plaza
San Francisco: UA Coronet
San Francisco: UA Galaxy
San Rafael: Regency
Santa Ana: AMC MainPlace
West Hollywood: GCC Beverly Connection
Westwood: GCC Avco (2 screens)
Westwood: Mann's National
Westwood: Pacific's Crest
Westwood: UA Coronet

Maryland:
Bethesda: UA Theatres Bethesda

New York:
Manhattan: Cineplex Odeon Ziegfeld
Manhattan: Loew's 84th Street 6
Manhattan: UA Gemini Twin

EUROPE

Belgium:
Brussels: Kinepolis

Denmark:
Copenhagen: Imperial

*****

Theatres That *Are* Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound

Texas:
Dallas: Brad Miller's Screening Room

*****

The above list should account for most of the CDS-equipped theatres. Do any of you projectionists remember handling any CDS presentations at a theatre not on this list? If so, please keep the thread active and add to it.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2003, 01:04 AM:
 
United Artist's Plaza - Dallas, TX

United Artist's Hulen - Fort Worth, TX
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-02-2003, 02:56 AM:
 
How many films were released in it?
 
Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 08-02-2003, 03:16 AM:
 
Films in CDS (crappy dropout silence)

1990
Days of Thunder
Dick Tracy
Edward Scissorhands
Flatliners

1991
Doors, The
Final Approach
For the Boys
Hudson Hawk
Terminator 2

1992
Universal Soldier

------------

Anyone know what screen(s) CDS was installed in for UA Horton Plaza 7 (now a 14) & Pacific Grossmont Trolley 8?

BTW, I can't stand the AMC Century City 14. I can't believe that so many people (in hollywood!) would want to wacth a movie in such small thatres with tiny screens, awfull sound, and projectionists who cant seem to focus for ****. AMC should bulldoze that sucker and rebuild a nice theatre in its place.
 
Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 08-02-2003, 03:34 AM:
 
At least one theatre in the UK was equipped with CDS . Not at work so can't be certain but West Thurrock seems to lurk in the back of my mind and I think that they had a CDS print of T2 for several years.
 
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-02-2003, 04:26 AM:
 
quote:
Films in CDS (crappy dropout silence)
CDS actually stands for "Cinema Digital Sound". Unfortunately, I have never heard it in action. It was never installed in Germany, alhough there were some demos in Munich. I hear it sounded really good.
It was ultimately unsuccessful - but it was, if not the first digital sound ever reproduced in a movie theatre, the first attempt to introduce a digital system for everyday purposes, and as such a memorable effort which should command a little more respect.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-02-2003, 05:22 AM:
 
United Artists Continental
Denver, CO
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 08-02-2003, 06:25 AM:
 
U.A. Cinema at the Falls - Miami, Florida
 
Posted by Bob Maar (Member # 763) on 08-02-2003, 07:00 AM:
 
New York City - Criterion Theatre (Times Square)
 
Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 08-02-2003, 07:09 AM:
 
I believe that both the UCI and the Warner site in Thurrok had CDS installed - trials were done at the old Odeon Marble Arch however I am unsure if anything screened there.

I think that Terminator 2, Dick Tracey and The Doors were the only films shown in it

At least one processor remains - with a Penthouse inspired by the JJ Mag unit ?

Peter
 
Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 08-02-2003, 07:21 AM:
 
Ok, so HOW does (did) CDS work?

Was it like SR-D/SDDS printed on the film or like DTS on a seperate device?

Was it 'stereo', 4 track, EX etc ??

I had never heard of it before.

Bill.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-02-2003, 07:27 AM:
 
Perer (Hall),

A CDS reader was on display in the Projected Picture Trust section at Bletchley Park a rew years ago, but I haven't seen it recently.

The PPT have an old Gaumont (eclipse?) projector from the late '20s, with both turntable and optical sond head. For a display at Grip House Studios Dion Hanson added to it a RCA mag penthouse, DTS code reader and three digital heads, CDS, Dolby and SDDS, and then bolted the top spool box back on top! I took a picture of it, but I can't find it now.

ps. I was at the David Lean last night; I hate that acop. Luckily I had about half an hour before the first show to master the art of starting a machine without the **** thing tripping.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-02-2003, 07:34 AM:
 
I'm sure I saw Terminator 2 at the Odeon Leicester Square in 70mm CDS...
 
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 08-02-2003, 09:31 AM:
 
List of films released in the USA in CDS-70mm.

Dick Tracy
Days Of Thunder
Flatliners
Edward Scissorhands
Terminator 2: Judgement Day


 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-02-2003, 09:46 AM:
 
There is or was a 8 perf 70 projector (modified DP70) that used CDS in all its venues I think it was called VistaScope
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-02-2003, 10:04 AM:
 
quote:
Ok, so HOW does (did) CDS work?
CDS was an on film digital source that was located were the analog sound track was located on 35 MM film. Basically leaving the print with no back up for sound if the CDS failed. This in turn along with the developement by dolby SRD is why the CDS process failed. There were probably other factors involved with the demise.
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-02-2003, 11:24 AM:
 
"Dick Tracy" in 70mm CDS at the Edwards Newport was very impressive. The one showing I saw of it there was flawless sound-wise.
 
Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 08-02-2003, 11:45 AM:
 
Darryl/David,

So that system is simalar to to-day's version of 70mm. (ie No back-up) - Save a DVD running on AV on a Panastereo

I'm scared as hell of getting Titanic or Lawrence in DTS only - AGAIN.

WHICH will happen around August 15th.

There is no back-up. Well there is, TWO PLAYERS (Thanks Ray) but only the one READER. That is the worry!

Waiting for the access to the Film-Tech section on advice about 'DTS reader head voltages'.

But far as I know, as long as it reads 4.5 volts DC it should work ok.

Bill.
 
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-02-2003, 11:59 AM:
 
When using the DTS 70mm failsafe setup with two players, you can hook them up to two timecode readers if you like.

--jhawk
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-02-2003, 01:23 PM:
 
Kodak/ORC Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) - the FIRST commercial bits-on-film digital sound system for theatres:

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/recording/motionpicture3.html

http://users.pandora.be/nicks_auditorium/en/digital.html

http://www.mtsu.edu/~smpte/timeline.html

AFAIK, most of the reliability issues were hardware-related (e.g., overheating processor). Because the bits were printed in an unabraded area (replacing the analog soundtrack on 35mm prints), the prints generally did not have soundtrack wear issues. But by replacing the analog track, there was NO BACKUP if the processor failed. In hindsight, a fatal error.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-02-2003, 02:27 PM:
 
If the Criterion theater in New York ever had a CDS installation they never played any movies on it. Having lived in New York City at the time (when CDS was active), I can say the Loews 84th Street 8, UA Gemini Twin and Cineplex Odeon Ziegfeld were the only installations.

As far as I can tell, the Ziegfeld played only one CDS show with their system ("Edward Scissorhands"). The Loews 84th Street theater played "Dick Tracy" and "T2" both in 70mm CDS. The UA Gemini Twin was the first in Manhattan to show 35mm CDS with "The Doors", and had both 35mm CDS and 70mm CDS prints for "T2".

One theater in Atlanta was left off the CDS installation list, the Cineplex Odeon Lennox Square (it was the one lone location in Atlanta showing "T2" in 35mm CDS).
 
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 08-02-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
U.A. Midlothian Cinema, Richmond, Va.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-02-2003, 03:06 PM:
 
John, I assume ORC did all of the manufacturing? If so, then it really doesn't surprise me that there were lots of hardware issues. The manager at the UA Continental in Denver (at the time) told me that sometimes it wouldn't even boot up. ORC was never very reliable and it is probably good that they are gone.
 
Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 08-02-2003, 03:39 PM:
 
It was not the lack of a backup analog track that killed CDS, but the old problem of dual inventory. The studios had to strike and keep track of 2 seperate sets of prints, digital and analog. As soon as a better alternative came along the studios took it.

Also, I believe, but not sure, that the George Moroder version of Metropolis was released in CDS.

/Mitchell
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-02-2003, 03:53 PM:
 
Yes that was a factor that they would never be able to get away from. Hence the introduction of dolby digital that allowed there to be a back up for analog sound. They still could have kept using CDS had there not been the hardware issues and the lack of a back-up. Just like anything else they could have used it in special situations. For a while they did duel invetory prints on Dolby digital encoded films. Some had it some didn't until the units were more widely spread out in theaters.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-02-2003, 04:02 PM:
 
quote:

It was not the lack of a backup analog track that killed CDS, but the old problem of dual inventory.
I think this is correct; most sound recording systems, film or otherwise, do not hane a backup track, and this has not been seen as a major issue.

Assuming that ORC and Kodak intended CCDS to succeed, and not just to be a demonstrtion of the principle of the technology, they must have believed that either:

Dual inventory bould be acceptable to the industry.

or

CDS would, over a short time span, totally replace the analogue optical tracks in all theatres.

The former has never been welcomed in the past, and the latter would seem highly unlikely, given the cost of the system.

It would be interesting to know what their thinking was at the time.
 
Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 08-02-2003, 04:26 PM:
 
Was there any CDS trailers that were played before the feature?
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-02-2003, 04:54 PM:
 
The CDS features I saw in New York did not have any format trailers run before them. For "The Doors" engagement at the UA Gemini Twin they did have a couple large showcard posters in the lobby promoting CDS. But I think more people actually watched the movie a few blocks over at the Ziegfeld (which was showing a 70mm Dolby SR mag print).

I'm not sure I agree with the whole dual inventory argument regarding CDS. Most theaters dealing with 70mm prints had to keep a 35mm print on stock as well for moving the show into a smaller auditorium. So this was nothing new really.

I would argue the $20,000+ price tag for the CDS system combined with the early 1991 vaporware announcement Dolby Labs made regarding Dolby Digital were the real things that killed CDS.

Even though nearly a year and half would pass before Dolby Digital debuted with "Batman Returns" Dolby Labs promoted the system to exhibitors and specifically noted how a single Dolby Digital 35mm print would carry both the SR optical track and Dolby Digital track. That pitch alone was enough to be a fatal strike against CDS, which would default to complete silence if the digital track failed. Also consider the strong brand name recognition held by Dolby Labs. It was very easy for exhibitors to hold off and wait for Dolby Digital to arrive, after all Hollywood was still striking 70mm Dolby mag prints for a good number of shows.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-02-2003, 05:20 PM:
 
Of the two CDS presentations I saw (Dick Tracy, 70mm, Beverly Connection; T-2, 70mm, Cinerama Dome, both L.A.)I only saw the CDS snipe on the latter. It was HIGHLY unmemorable, consisting of a few plain vanilla notes and some cheap graphics. One problem with T-2 is that the image was off-center, as were all the previews that were also run in 70mm CDS.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-02-2003, 05:30 PM:
 
No doubt Kodak and ORC viewed digital sound as a premium process so dual inventory wasn't that big a deal. I wonder whats become of the recording camera. It would be hilarious if just for the heck of it someone would shoot a CDS negative and then have SR•D, SDDS and DTS exposed onto it and then print quite a unique quad format positive of something.
 
Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 08-02-2003, 05:58 PM:
 
Mitchell wrote :
quote:
Also, I believe, but not sure, that the George Moroder version of Metropolis was released in CDS.
Wasn't that version released in 1984? The IMDB doens't mention a re-release in the '90s.

Danny
 
Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 08-02-2003, 09:07 PM:
 
Mike Olpin wrote...

quote:
Anyone know what screen(s) CDS was installed in for UA Horton Plaza 7 (now a 14)...?
I can't say this with certainty but the most likely candidate would have been the largest auditorium in the west wing, Screen #2 (if I recall the screen number correctly; I worked film festivals there for one week each in 1998 and 1999 but haven't been there since then). While the other screens had to make do with Christie packages, this one had an AA-II, over 2000 watts of amplification, DTS, SDDS, and -- at the time of my gigs -- THX certification.
 
Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 08-03-2003, 05:08 AM:
 
ORC seemed to have some good ideas however from the kit we've seen never quite made it into the mainstream or sorted reliability problems. The small ORCON B is a really handy pisce of kit when it has not self destructed. They were the first with Digital. Even their platters could be described as having some merit if you look really hard ! OK - xenon lamps were another thing - great if you're selling them and want to keep the phone ringing - we had real reliability issues with these and their subsequent rebranding to LTI.

Steven - totally agree about the Croydon ACOP. We have been trying for ages to get this replaced or removed - trick is if you have an alarm turn EVERYTHING off and start again - I know this is stupid as you can be runnign fine on one projector, turn the other maachine on to lace up and cause an alarm and shut down a good show. Only Reg has any idea on how it works - still, I believe that this is probably the only commercial cinema in Loondon without some form of long play ..

Peter
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-03-2003, 05:22 AM:
 
quote:
Was there any CDS trailers that were played before the feature?
Yup, there was a CDS sound logo.
 
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-03-2003, 01:38 PM:
 
Tom Cruise's home screening room had CDS installed.

I think that the Samuel Goldwyn Theater at AMPAS also had CDS installed at one time. In the mid to late 1990's there was a SMPTE presentation there that had Dolby Digital, DTS, LC Concept, and SDDS demonstrating their systems. The CDS system could not be resurrected, so that system was not presented.

Somewhere in my house I have a CDS one-sheet, coasters, and two t-shirts with different designs.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-04-2003, 12:21 AM:
 
quote:
Films in CDS

Flatliners
For the Boys
Universal Soldier
While these three titles were certainly announced for release in CDS (and For The Boys even carries a CDS sound format logo in its credits), I think the verdict is still out on them actually getting released that way...at least in the U.S.

quote:
Was it 'stereo', 4 track, EX etc ??
CDS was a "six-track"/"5.1" format, though not every film to use it was necessarily sourced from a full six-track mix. Edward Scissorhands, for instance, was a four-track (L-C-R-S) mix.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-04-2003, 10:59 AM:
 
Bill Langfield writes:

quote:
I'm scared as hell of getting Titanic or Lawrence in DTS only - AGAIN. WHICH will happen around August 15th. There is no back-up. Well there is, TWO PLAYERS (Thanks Ray) but only the one READER. That is the worry!
But if your exciter bulb or LED power supply goes pop on an analogue-only processor you've lost the sound, too. So unless CDS was notoriously prone to dropouts I wouldn't have thought that killed the system in itself. But there again, digital means that you either get perfect sound or nothing at all, so I suppose that backup is more of an issue.

Peter writes:

quote:
still, I believe that this is probably the only commercial cinema in Loondon without some form of long play ..
AFAIK only one of the three NFT screens has a tower, and even then it isn't used for regular shows. Also the Riverside Studios and Everyman didn't use any long-play the last I knew of them, in the early '90s... but maybe they don't count as commercial (the NFT certainly wouldn't).
 
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 08-04-2003, 11:28 AM:
 
Screen At Oxted (Plaza) which is much a commercial cinema, has no long playing system. They have retained the two Westar projectors and Westrex soundheads with 5,000 foot spool boxes. The AEI 2k xenon lamphouses and T & R rectifiers were installed from the Regal, Cranleigh.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-04-2003, 11:58 AM:
 
Leo wrote:

quote:

AFAIK only one of the three NFT screens has a tower, and even then it isn't used for regular shows. Also the Riverside Studios and Everyman didn't use any long-play the last I knew of them, in the early '90s... but maybe they don't count as commercial (the NFT certainly wouldn't).
NFT 3 (ex MOMI) is now using a tower for some normal shows, I don't think it's the same one that was there in museum days. I saw 'Metropolis' there as an extended run, and this was run from the tower.

Shortly after the recent refurbishment (NFT 1 has tabs at last, after years of a bare screen since the gold shutters went out of use years ago!) I saw a normal show there, which was being run normally, but looking up through one of the ports I could see what looked like the edge of a tower spool. I'm not sure, but I think they may be running some shows there from a tower now. Does anybody know for sure?

There are a fair number of other places without long play, if by that you mean towers or platters, most can run 6k spools now.

Towers do seem very common in art house type places; I'd much rather have two machines, it makes life so much simpler. To run with changeovers you just need to be able to lace up film in the right place, and press two buttons, not exactly difficult. Compare that with the procedures described here recently for changing trailers, or re-starting a show with platters; sounds like an absolute nightmare. I've never run a platter, but they seem to make life so complicated.
 
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 08-04-2003, 12:27 PM:
 
Stephen,

You would enjoy a visit to the Oxted cinema. Built in the 1920s with a circle added for the beginning of talkies, the projection room was also moved. The original silent screen painted on the back wall can still be seen behind the old square proscenium. Up until 4 years ago Western Electric Universal bases with valve amps and Peerless carbon arcs were still operating.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-04-2003, 01:11 PM:
 
Brad, do you actually have any CDS film to run on your setup?

There were more installations than I had expected. Did the theatres buy the equipment, or was it rented, on loan from ORC, or what? I can't imagine they would have been too happy if they had been persuaded to pay out to buy the system, which only lasted for a few films. Not the first time something like this has happened of course, Fox Grandeur, 8perf Vista prints and sound on disk all spring to mind. Sound on disk did last a bit longer than CDS though, at lest for presentation, if not for original recording.

Are there any CDS prints still around? Could a theatre in theory still rent them if they have the equipment installed?
 
Posted by Duncan Smith (Member # 1556) on 08-04-2003, 03:22 PM:
 
Hey dudes! I have a friend who was a projectionist at UCI thurrock when the CDS was there. According to him it still is there, sitting around, together with the print of T2 too! He left there a few years ago and it was there when he left. Stephen's right about the NFT too, they do run quite a few shows off the tower in NFT3, more than when I was there about 2.5 yrs ago.

It was my understanding that CDS was a forerunner for SRD as it has similar pixel based information. Did it use less data compression as the track was continuous like SDDS and not between the perfs?

My largest screen (out of 2) has no long play system although the little one has a tower and only 1 machine. 2 projectors is preferable but not always possible. [uhoh]

See ya, Dunk.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-04-2003, 03:34 PM:
 
Anyone have a picture or scan of a frame or two of a CDS print? John?
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-04-2003, 03:52 PM:
 
There's more Cinema Digital Sound background information in an article published in the July 1990 issue of Kodak Film Notes for Reel People, H-50-25:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5025.pdf

Ron Uhlig led the Kodak technology team that worked with ORC and the labs.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-04-2003, 04:52 PM:
 
This is the only picture of a CDS soundtrack I could find. Does that look accurate? I have never seen a CDS print firsthand before.

-
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-04-2003, 05:19 PM:
 
Metropolis was the first soundtrack recorded digitally. Release prints were optical.

What happened with CDS was that ORC touched it.
[Razz]
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-04-2003, 05:20 PM:
 
I regret never having heard CDS, I've managed to experience most of the others, Fantasound being the other major one I've not heard. I doubt that I'll ever get to hear either of them now.

Anyone have a complete Fantasound setup, and print tucked away at home somewhere? [Smile]

There are some photos in the Widescreen Museum, and it's amasing, something like nine full-height racks, plus the spekers, and the two 'film phonographs', a strange term for them.

Peter, I've mastered that ***** acop! In the past I've killed it by taking the relay out of the control box, it's marked 'this one', so it looks like smeone else has done the same in the past. On Friday, I arrived just over half an hour before the show, so I laced up the trailers reel, and gave it a go. Three times I failed to start the machine without the thing tripping, but the fourth time I managed it. With polyester, most films will fit on two spools, so there are only three starts per show, trailers, first half of feature, and changeover. Having it trip on either of the first two wouldn't matter too much, the audience would only notice a few seconds delay, but for it to trip on the changeover, would be a disaster. Both the trailer and feature starts were ok, so I decided to leave the acop active. I was feelng very nervous, coming up to the changeover, but it went through fine, and now I've done it a few times seems quite simple to get right. It's still a horribly designed system though, and if it were my cinema, it would be changed. It's just far too easy to trip the thing when starting.

I've seen plenty of films there, without problems, so the normal projectionists have obviously mastered it long ago!
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-04-2003, 05:23 PM:
 
Here are a couple of quick shots of the track on 70mm...

-

-
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-04-2003, 06:41 PM:
 
According to the print inventory list on the "T2: Ultimate Edition" DVD, only six 70mm CDS prints were made of "T2". Perhaps that's just the North American total.

I'd like to what the actual data compression ratio comes out to for the CDS delta modulation process. I can't remember where I read it having a 4:1 ratio (I think that came from an article in "The Perfect Vision"). But that just seems all wrong. With close to 6 million bits of data running per second, that's really more than one would need for a fully uncompressed LPCM 6.0 track. You could probably even do 8.0 LPCM at that rate. It would seem like a lot of the data in that stream was there for error correction, which would have big a big deal considering the state of technology back then.

I've seen only four movies in CDS, but never heard it drop out to silence.
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-05-2003, 10:47 AM:
 
CORRECTION: I have it on good authority that the 1982 release of Fantasia was the first soundtrack recorded digitally. Metropolis was 1984, and had some digital sound screenings using an interlocked playback unit.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-05-2003, 11:02 AM:
 
The digital sound version of Metropolis (Glen Glenn sound, Giorgio Moroder) premiered on December 6, 1984, using the sound system at the Century Plaza Theatre in Los Angeles.

Fantasia opened at the Century Plaza with double-system digital sound on February 8, 1985, and played in Washington D.C. in May 1985:

Digital Sound for 70mm
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-05-2003, 11:10 AM:
 
quote:
Was there any CDS trailers that were played before the feature?
Besides Brad's answer, they also had THX Broadway in 70MM with a CDS track. They also stuck trailers with the CDS soundtrack on it. I have a 70MM CDS Broadway and a 35mm trailer for "Sleeping with the Enemy". Just like the regular THX logos at the end it has a CDS logo in the corner of the frame. I also have afew sound loops for to.
 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-05-2003, 01:40 PM:
 
did the cds track have an offset, and if so how many frames?

carl
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-05-2003, 02:36 PM:
 
quote:
Fantasia opened at the Century Plaza with double-system digital sound on February 8, 1985, and played in Washington D.C. in May 1985:
The 1982 release of Fantasia was the first soundtrack recorded digitally.

Fantasia 1982
"The 1982 re-release featured an entirely re-recorded soundtrack conducted by Irwin Kostal, the first-ever digitally recorded soundtrack for a motion picture."
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-05-2003, 03:07 PM:
 
That 1982 release of Fantasia may have had the first digital audio playback in a theatrical venue. I distinctly remember the LA Times doing an article about it. I have it stuck in my head that they were using a VCR synchronized to the film playback, something along the lines of the old Corvus Mirror, which could store digital data on a standard VCR. Anyone know for sure, or am I hallucinating all this? [Wink]

As far as early digital recordings of film soundtracks, Star Trek The Motion Picture had a digitally-mastered soundtrack. It came out in 1979 of course. I don't know if that's the earliest digitally-recorded movie soundtrack, but it's gotta be *one of* the earliest.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-05-2003, 03:23 PM:
 
Yes. The system used to present "Fantasia" at the Century City Theatre was discussed in an interview published in Widescreen Review, Volume 2, Number 8.

The 1982 performance conducted by Irwin Kostal was recorded digitally, and mixed by Shawn Murphy. The projector was interlocked with the two track digital master using proprietary syncronizers developed by Disney engineers (led by Nelson Meacham) for EPCOT Center. The "Fantasia" digital sound presentation opened February 8, 1985, and generated considerable interest and business.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-05-2003, 03:25 PM:
 
Wasn't Fantasia recorded in 1754 or whenever the movie was made? All I know is that it is horribly old. How did they record digitally back then? Or did they just rescore everything in 1982? No matter how great the sound is, I still hate that movie with a passion.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-05-2003, 03:38 PM:
 
Joe, this was a totally new recording of the score. It wasn't very popular, and for the 50th anniversary release the original recordings were restored as best they could be from the best surviving elements. The original 'Fantasound' recordings no longer existed at that time.
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-05-2003, 03:39 PM:
 
I'm afraid I've never "gotten" Fantasia either. I want to appreciate the pretty images and nice music, but then I fall asleep. [sleep]
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-05-2003, 04:35 PM:
 
quote:
That 1982 release of Fantasia may have had the first digital audio playback in a theatrical venue.
Yes, but who heard it digital at that time? For clarification... the '82 re-release used the new digital re-recording of the music, but the theatrical soundtrack presentations were in Dolby Stereo (some mag, most optical -- many theatres likely still ran mono). It was in '85, as mentioned by several in this thread, that an audience could actually hear the film played back digitally.

quote:
As far as early digital recordings of film soundtracks, Star Trek The Motion Picture had a digitally-mastered soundtrack.
Again to clarify...I believe you're referring to the soundtrack album (i.e. the recording of the music score was digital), not the film's sound mix.
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-05-2003, 06:07 PM:
 
1940 - Nov. 13 premier of Walt Disney's Fantasia in New York's Broadway Theater with a multichannel soundtrack produced by Leopold Stokowski who recorded an optical track for each section of the orchestra, resulting in 9 separate soundtracks.

These were mixed by Stokowski into 4 master optical tracks that were played in synchronization on special equipment made by RCA for a multiple-loudspeaker theater installation called "Fantasound"; behind the screen were three horns and placed around the other walls of the theater were 65 smaller speakers. The separation and directionality of sounds was impressive. However, the system was not practical because of the $85,000 cost to equip each theater, opposition by unions, and a demand by the government that RCA stop manufacturing the necessary sound components because of defense priorities. After the 2nd full installation of equipment at the Carthay Circle Theater in Los Angeles, it was not installed in any other theaters. Instead, eight "Fantasia Road Show" versions were assembled, each with 15,000 pounds of equipment but without the full surround sound loudspeaker system. Fantasound ended in 1941 and would not be heard again until a remastered version in Dolby Stereo was recorded in 1982 with Irwin Kostal conducting the Stokowski arrangements. In 1990 Disney re-released the film in magnetic 6-channel "Fantasound '90" at the Cinerama Dome Theater in Los Angeles with a similar arrangement of surround sound equipment as was used in the 1940 Carthay Circle Theater showing, but all other theaters in America would show it in standard Dolby 70mm magnetic 4-track matrix stereo sound. See the articles on Fantasound at the American WideScreen Museum.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-05-2003, 06:12 PM:
 
quote:
...all other theaters in America would show it in standard Dolby 70mm magnetic 4-track matrix stereo sound.
Well, that's a mouthful...and not entirely correct.
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-05-2003, 06:23 PM:
 
I was wondering that myself. I think the person who wrote that info may have ment 35MM 4 track but not for sure.

1990 - Dick Tracy released June 15 as the first 35mm feature film distributed with a digital soundtrack by Cinema Digital Sound (CDS), developed by Eastman Kodak and Optical Radiation Corp. "The system was set up in the typical Left, Center, Right, Right Surround, Left Surround, LFE channel format. CDS encoded 16-bit PCM audio in a compression process called Delta Modulation. The process is very similar to normal PCM coding, but with one major difference. PCM coding records the intensity of every sample to a zero db level. That requires 16-bits for each sample. Delta Modulation records the intensity differences of successive samples, and that doesn't require nearly as much data. The compression level of CDS ran approximately 4:1." However, the system replaced the optical analog soundtrack without allowing any backup track for theaters not equipped with the $20,000 digital playback system. Also, theaters preferred to wait for the Dolby digital system that was compatible with an analog track.

Fantasound
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-05-2003, 06:51 PM:
 
Mike

You have to add the Pacific's El Capitan Theatre in Hollywood to the CDS list. Yes, I know they never played a public screening of a CDS film. But Disney had the theatre equipped with the format just like the Crest in Westwood. But the format crashed and it sat back stage for a time. Till it was taken back to the basement of the Hollywood Pacific for storage.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-05-2003, 07:48 PM:
 
quote:
You have to add the Pacific's El Capitan Theatre in Hollywood to the CDS list.
Wasn't the El Capitan/Paramount not operational during 1990 when CDS was introduced? I don't recall the timeframe or engagement that ended the Paramount before closing, but I seem to recall the place reopening as the El Capitan in summer 1991 with The Rocketeer (70mm-mag).

quote:
Dick Tracy released June 15 as the first 35mm feature film distributed with a digital soundtrack by Cinema Digital Sound (CDS)
The CDS release of Dick Tracy was 70mm-only. I don't think they did any 35mm-CDS shows until Edward Scissorhands (December 1990).
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-05-2003, 09:07 PM:
 
this is probably more acurate. But who knows.

FIlms released in CDS digital sound
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-06-2003, 12:38 AM:
 
quote:
Wasn't Fantasia recorded in 1754 or whenever the movie was made? All I know is that it is horribly old. How did they record digitally back then? Or did they just rescore everything in 1982? No matter how great the sound is, I still hate that movie with a passion.
Yes, they just had an orchestra play the same score "synched" as best they could, because it would be NEW AND IMPROVED!

The original animation was made to bar sheets & the recorded track, & edited after shooting. It was tight, like sound & image are with classic Disney & WB cartoons. The new score was done the other way around, like Fleischer (Popeye) cartoons, trying to stay synched to the picture. Not only was the orchestral performance pretty mediocre, but the sync was mostly off, sometimes way off. It was no longer a cool theatrical experience of musical & visual unity.

I saw it, it stank. Real bad.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-06-2003, 01:44 AM:
 
quote:
I was wondering that myself. I think the person who wrote that info may have ment 35MM 4 track but not for sure.
The 1990 release of "Fantasia" (for the film's 50th anniversary) did indeed have 70mm prints. I watched the 70mm showing of it at the City Cinemas Gramercy Theater on 23rd Street near School of Visual Arts. I remember chuckling at the comments made by one audience member in protest of the 1.33:1 aspect ratio. "we should have went to the Ziegfeld where they have that Panavision stuff." [uhoh]

Regarding the 70mm sound mix for "Fantasia," it had discrete directional qualities typical of a true mag print. But I don't remember the show having much of any bass to it. So perhaps the .2 LFE channels in format 42 went unused on that one, which could make it a 70mm L,C,R,S mix --but that is just a guess.

quote:
Delta Modulation records the intensity differences of successive samples, and that doesn't require nearly as much data. The compression level of CDS ran approximately 4:1
That's a quote I wrote several years ago for an article about CDS for Perry Sun's Movie Sound Page, which quoted from someone else in now what seems like an obvious guess. With the CDS bitrate running near 6 million bits per second, it does not seem like the system had any data compression whatsoever when compared to the bandwidth LPCM 5.1 would require.

Delta Modulation coding is a more efficient audio coding system than Linear PCM. And that could dredge up a whole DVD-A versus Super Audio CD argument (MLP losslessly compresses a much larger bandwidth LPCM format whereas SACD's Direct Stream Digital is a Delta Sigma Modulation coder). I'm just wondering what the actual bandwidth savings was for CDS in choosing Delta Modulation over LPCM or going with a more aggressive yet lossy data compression system.

5.8 million bits per second is very staggering in size for a 1990 sound on film process. LC Digital and Dolby Digital both ran to the opposite extremes using 320kb/s coders. But even the 2.2 Mb/s total data rate of SDDS seems small compared to CDS. Only systems like IMAX DDP and the LPCM 5.1 tracks for DLP shows can compare in bandwidth to CDS. Hell, considering how primitive CCDs were in 1990, I'm kind of amazed CDS worked at all!
 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-06-2003, 03:36 AM:
 
actually, i don't see that it makes much sense to put 1.33 in 70mm. wouldn't it use only a little over half the image area, maybe 33% bigger than it would be in 35mm?

and what is the offset in cds?

carl
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-06-2003, 07:20 AM:
 
AFAIK, the 70mm 1990 release "Fantasia" with 1.37:1 aspect ratio "windowboxed" on the 70mm frame was done primarily for the advantages of the 70mm magnetic sound format, and not the slight increase in print image area that ends up on the screen.
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-06-2003, 08:35 AM:
 
quote:
Wasn't the El Capitan / Paramount not operational during 1990 when CDS was introduced?
Yes
The Paramount may have closed late 1989. One of the original plans called for the theatre to be twinned like Hollywood Pacific, with the balcony being turned into the second theatre.

quote:
but, i seem to recall the place reopening as the El Capitan in the summer 1991 with The Rocketeer in 70MM mag.
Yes, it reopened June of 1991 with The Rocketeer in 70MM.

Disney wanted it equipped with the latest sound formats of the time.
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-06-2003, 11:21 AM:
 
One of the last films that played the Paramount in 1989 before they closed it was "Star Trek V", in 70mm. Maybe the last? There were only a handful of 70mm engagements of that movie, and I drove a long way to see it at the Paramount. The theatre was looking a little neglected (which of course it would have if they were planning a major renovation), but the presentation was excellent.
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-06-2003, 11:34 AM:
 
The Paramount Hollywood was a good house to see a movie in. They had a pair of very well maintained DP70's in the booth. But Pacific used the Paramount as a dumping ground. The best bookings went to the the Dome and then the Hollywood Pacific. Pacific pick-up the Paramount and other locations from SRO Theatres. Back in Summer of 1982, "ET" in 70MM was at the Dome and was going to open city wide. The Paramount was booked with the move-over from the Dome. But it all changed, Pacific pulled "ET" from the Paramount. They moved it over to the Hollywood Pacific #1. They replaced that booking at the Paramount with "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" (3 Track Mag) as their big summer movie. When the El Capitan reopened Disney outfitted the theatre with the best booth equipment. So they installed CDS. But they never had public screening of any film.
 
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 08-06-2003, 08:05 PM:
 
I saw Dick Tracy in 70mm CDS at the Loew's 84th St in NYC and while the sound did not drop out, it had all of the worse characteristics associated with digital sound: it was brittle and harsh sounding, although I don't know how much of that was due to the B-chain in use at the time.

As I remember it, there was a massive failure of a CDS film, probably Dick Tracy, on its premier showing that gave the system a lot of bad press. Also, theatre owners at the time were fighting the advent of digital sound as they did not want (as usual) to make an investment in hardware and those that were open to digital wanted a compatible, single print system. I remember being at a SMPTE convention in which CDS was demonstrated at the Ziegfeld and several projectionists and/or theatre managers in the audience criticized the system for not being backwards compatible.

But after the equipment failure and because of the other reasons mentioned above, CDS soon disappeared. It was probably just released a bit too soon. Personally, I was surprised by the success of DTS, since it was double-system based, even though it maintained the analog optical track.
 
Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 08-07-2003, 07:43 AM:
 
I found some additional information in a 1990 email from a colleague.

quote:
A slit is imaged on the film with an exciter lamp, and is scanned with a tiny TY type camera with a linear CCD array. The array senses with four elements per film pixel, and scans four times per longitudinal pixel. There is error correction; and the packets are spread out over several inches of film (similar to a CD).

The data format is the same as CD (16 bit sample, 44,100 samples/sec). Needless to say, there is some serious processing going on!

Since speed is critical (there is an internal clock) projector motors must be synchronous.

They ran a sample reel with various types of material. The sound was excellent. In fact, the surround system couldn't handle the volume. It was good to hear PANNED dialogue once again!
Some of the developers of CDS later worked on the development of SDDS.
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-07-2003, 07:55 AM:
 
It was the film "Days of Thunder" that had the massive failure at Mann's National Theatre in Westwood. I believe it was a heat issue of the unit in the booth.

Another problem on the West Coast in the Southern California area during "Dick Tracy". Was NFS mixed print reels and sent CDS prints to theatres that were to get mag prints. And mag prints to CDS houses. Sounds like these people now work for TES [Big Grin] .
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2003, 08:27 AM:
 
Bill Gabel wrote:

quote:
It was the film "Days of Thunder" that had the massive failure at Mann's National Theatre in Westwood. I believe it was a heat issue of the unit in the booth.
Thanks for remembering the specifics around this incident of hardware failure (overheating) I referred to in my original posting on this thread. Word of failure in a "high profile" situation like this spreads very quickly. Another $10 muffin fan may have changed the course of digital sound history, maybe for the better. [Wink] But Cinema Digital Sound DID pave the way.

quote:
Another problem on the West Coast in the Southern California area during "Dick Tracy". Was NFS mixed print reels and sent CDS prints to theatres that were to get mag prints. And mag prints to CDS houses.
Time and time again, "Dual Inventory" has shown itself to be unmanageable when more than a few prints are involved.
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-07-2003, 12:18 PM:
 
The national film board of canada unveiled a digital system that overlaid the digital track ontop of the analogue track with a reverse scan beamsplitter based reader in the cnetury r3 soundhead
There was a SMPTE article about the system
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2003, 12:35 PM:
 
That NFB paper was:

Digital Optical Sound on 35mm Motion Picture Film
Wiles, Gasoi, Zwaneveld
SMPTE Journal, November 1990, Volume 99, pages 899-908
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-07-2003, 01:32 PM:
 
John P. sed...
quote:
Time and time again, "Dual Inventory" has shown itself to be unmanageable when more than a few prints are involved.
Now, John... didn't you just suggest in another thread that I maintain dual inventories with the Screen Attractions prints? See, it's more trouble than it's worth, particularly in my case with the red-reader optimized soundtracks, since exciter lamps are on the way out.
[Confused]
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2003, 01:46 PM:
 
Tim:

That's the point. Today we have a MIX of white light and red LED readers. So traditional (cyan+magenta+silver) tracks have different cross-mod optimization points, and ideally require dual inventory, and the problems that entails. Without dual inventory, one or the other reader will have some sibilant distortion. High-Magenta (magenta+silver) are more compatible with both. And with cyan dye only tracks, you can only use a red light reader, so no need for dual inventory.

If NT Audio and the lab optimized your prints for red LED readers, you're all set for the future.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-07-2003, 02:18 PM:
 
John--can the same optical track negative be used to make silver, high-magenta, and cyan tracks, or are there other differences before the printing stage?

(yes, this should probably go in the dye tracks thread)
 
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-07-2003, 02:55 PM:
 
without reference to that paper, which i probably wouldn't bother to read anyways, i fail to see how a digital track could be overlaid on a conventional optical track. does it only work on a cyan track, with the digital track printed say, in magenta? if so, that seems like a damn good idea (pending advancements in leds) that would keep the digital soundtrack in a less-abraded area.

carl
 
Posted by Andrew Walls (Member # 179) on 08-07-2003, 03:50 PM:
 
FYI - The CDS equipment is still sitting at the UA Bethesda location in Maryland. It's no longer hooked up, but it's still there holding the floor down.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2003, 04:03 PM:
 
Scott asked:

quote:
John--can the same optical track negative be used to make silver, high-magenta, and cyan tracks, or are there other differences before the printing stage?
For optimum results, the sound negative exposure (density) is optimized for the type of track. It's likely that old sound negatives originally made for dye+silver tracks would still be used to make dye+silver prints, but with Cross-Mod optimized for red LED readers.

To answer Carl Martin's question, I'm not sure the NFB system was ever used for a feature release.
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-07-2003, 08:55 PM:
 
Final off-topic post by me in this thread... John P. said:
quote:
Without dual inventory, one or the other reader will have some sibilant distortion.
That is only a temporary condition. Don't forget, these prints are designed for long-term usage, and are expected to be on screens for years to come. It is pointless to maintain a stock for a scanning system that has its days numbered. If we were a studio with an entertainment product that is here today, gone tomorrow, I would be inclined to agree with you. But it just doesn't make good economic sense for this application.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-07-2003, 09:11 PM:
 
Tim:

If you had your silver+dye prints optimized for red LED readers, you made the right decision, since red readers are in the clear majority now. If they are "high magenta", they should be pretty compatible with tungsten too. If they are cyan+magenta+silver, they may have a bit of sibilance on tungsten readers.
 
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-10-2003, 12:45 AM:
 
Mike Olpin wrote:

quote:
BTW, I can't stand the AMC Century City 14. I can't believe that so many people (in hollywood!) would want to wacth a movie in such small thatres with tiny screens, awfull sound, and projectionists who cant seem to focus for ****. AMC should bulldoze that sucker and rebuild a nice theatre in its place.
You want tiny screens? Check out the Cineplex Odeon in The Beverly Centre. Teensie-Weensie theatres....but then you have to remember that the folks in Beverly Hills are used to cozy little screening rooms.
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-11-2003, 04:06 AM:
 
Darryl said: "Fantasound ended in 1941 and would not be heard again until a remastered version in Dolby Stereo was recorded in 1982 with Irwin Kostal conducting the Stokowski arrangements."

Not quite true; FANTASIA was rereleased quite a number of times over the years, one notable release was an anamorphic version that, although the animation was distorted by the bizzare attempt to make them "scope" and morphing everything that was round into obvious ovals, the soundtrack was a 4 track mag record of the original multitrack optical recording. The 1 sheets for this release (circa 1955) claimed "In FantaSound."

This unfortunate release in pseudo-scope was just a bad idea based on worse marketing -- the idea being that wide screen had become a sizzling hot item at the time and here was a way Disney could capitalize on it and add the original stereo (Fantasound) to the print via mag tracks. They claimed this version of FANTASIA was in Superscope.

Now, if it were JUST a straightforward playing of the 1.37 print with an anamorphic lens, the savvy exhibitor could simply play it without the anamorphic attachment and he'd get the original image plus the 4 track mag sound. Good enough. But as it turned out, the studio decided (very wrongly IMHO) that they could get away with stretching out the animated segments, but not the human beings. So they optically compressed all the live action sequences, deleted all the Deams Taylor segments (they needed to get rid of the need to lipsync -- more on that later) that joined the animated works together and then, when the animated sequences began, they did an optical spread out to full frame width, which, of course, would then become "scope" on the screen. Everyone included me saw the insanity of that version, but if you wanted to run FANTASIA in stereo, it was the only print that had the original stereo. So, how to get the stereo sound and not the distorted "scope" image?

Our solution was to use a Superscope variable anamorphic lens (having nothing to do with the Disney claim that the film was in Superscope). For the live segments which the studio optically compressed on the print (projected with a normal anamorphic lens, they appeared on the screen as a normal 1.37 image), the Superscope lens would be set to standard 2x stretch. But when the animation came on and the studio did an optical to gradually returned the image to full frame, I manually decreased the anamorphic stretched to zero, leaving the normal 1.37 image on the screen. After a few shows, I was able to time dialing down the anamorphic stretch to zero or back to full 2x to match the optical stretch or compression on the print; most of the time the audiences noticed no change at all on the screen; with this method, I could play the film in 1.37:1 without any of that anamorphic distortion nonsense but get the 4 channel original Stokowski tracks. What we won't do to get stereo sound!

"Wasn't Fantasia recorded in 1754 or whenever the movie was made? All I know is that it is horribly old."

Ehem....Age isn't necessarily horrible and by the standards of the day (1939), FANTASIA was one of the most daring and inventive cinema works to ever come out of the Disney studios. It INVENTED technology to present stereo sound a decade before its time. And the animation was astonishing, again for its time -- nothing like this had ever been attempted before.

For those born forty years later, it may not have the eye candy that is common-place with today's computer generated images, but it broke all kinds of new ground in its concept and execution in its day. In fact, it wasn't supposed to be a "movie" at all, but a new kind of movie concert.... a Fantasia. The idea was that the Disney studios would continually create new animation and Stokowski would record new symphonic works. The older segments of the film would be pulled and the new ones inserted; people would be able to go to a Fantasia Theatre as they were to be called, and see FANTASIA with new works in it. Because of the staggering economics and sheer size of the system, it was a financial disaster and studio abandoned any further work.

The marriage of music and animation stands alone to this day, regardless of how many "music videos" are churned out like so much manure from the great ass of Hollywood.

It is said that Walt Disney went into a deep depression when his idea of a movie concert and the film itself were so roundly lambasted by the critics. To his death, he claimed that FANTASIA was the work he was most proud of and most dear to his heart.

"No matter how great the sound is, I still hate that movie with a passion."

Interesting; could you tell us why? Perhaps it doesn't rise to the level of Hip Hop videos? A little respect might be in order for the accomplishments of the movie pioneers of the past.

"Yes, they just had an orchestra play the same score "synched" as best they could, because it would be NEW AND IMPROVED!

The original animation was made to bar sheets & the recorded track, & edited after shooting. It was tight, like sound & image are with classic Disney & WB cartoons. The new score was done the other way around, like Fleischer (Popeye) cartoons, trying to stay synched to the picture. Not only was the orchestral performance pretty mediocre, but the sync was mostly off, sometimes way off. It was no longer a cool theatrical experience of musical & visual unity.

I saw it, it stank. Real bad."

Perhaps you saw what was an unfortunate problem that dogged the 80s digital presentation of the Kostal rerecording. At the time the studio recording was digital, but you have to remember that as yet there was no digital on film -- No Dolby D, no DTS, no SDDS and even no CDS. The digital system that played in the major markets was interlock (sort of) with a Sony PCM deck.

The print was run from a platter and projectors were equipped with synchronous motors; the PCM deck just ran on the fly. They were started together, but once they were going, it was pot luck - the projectionist at the Zeigfeld in NYC said they would stay in sync MOST of the time, but he said that when they would drift, it was his job to manually switch back to the analog track if he though they were noticeably off. It was his call, and from my discussion with him, he seemed to be of the mind that you couldn't tell if the music was out of sync with animation. "After all, it doens't have to be lip sync....no one is talking." Hence the reason behind deleting the Deams Taylor sequences -- no lipsync issues on his closeups. And you had to wonder how closely projectionists paid attention to the screen at anyone given moment anyway. Who know how far adrift sound and picture where when you saw it.

And I disagree that the Kostal score was not "tight;" I ran that very 1982 Kostal print last year, playing the analog Dolby A stereo track, and except for the obvious improvement in fidelity and the spatial width of the stereo soundfield, Kostal's conducting was very true to the Stokowski interpretation and it was perfectly synced to the image. In fact, in an interview Kostal gave, he said he knew what he was up against in terms of the negative comments that would come from the purists who would have him drawn and quartered just because his recording was replacing the Stokowski recording. He admitted that it was very clear that his job was not to reinterpret Stokowski's original recording, but to match it and provide sonic clarity that was missing because of the technical limitation of the 1939 optical recording technology. And that he did, I would say, note for note, musical phrase for musical phrase.

To see the spectacular animation (hand painted, I might add with nary a single CGI frame in the whole film) married to an open, airy, full orchestral track was a rich experience. I have 3000 patrons who saw it in our open air theatre who seemed to feel the same. I also have the CD of the Kostal soundtrack and I certainly wouldn't characterize it as mediocre. It is perhaps not the best reditions of the works, but given the restraints under which the conductor was saddled, his version is as much a pleasure to hear as many other recordings of the same works that I have collected over the years.

Interestingly, almost every time I have booked that masterpiece (at least 7 or 8 times since about 1975), I would find patrons in their 20s and 30s who had never seen FANTASIA, asking "when did it come out...a few years ago?" I'd tell them, no, 1939; they invariably would register surprise that a film THAT OLD could look so fresh.

Frank
 
Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-11-2003, 05:02 AM:
 
quote:
It INVENTED technology to present stereo sound a decade before its time.
As far as I know, the first documented experiments with stereophinoc recording techniques took place in the early 1930s. RCA experimented with the 3-channel recording of a concert in Philadelphia and transmitting it to New York.
During the war, the Reichsrundfunk in Berlin also made test stereo recordings which I heard and which sound astonishingly good for their age.
Still, Fantasia was the first ever movie to be presented in stereophonic sound and the technical achievement is quite impressive.
 
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-11-2003, 06:15 AM:
 
Quote:

quote:
Ehem....Age isn't necessarily horrible and by the standards of the day (1939), FANTASIA was one of the most daring and inventive cinema works to ever come out of the Disney studios. It INVENTED technology to present stereo sound a decade before its time. And the animation was astonishing, again for its time -- nothing like this had ever been attempted before.
Don't forget the British engineer Alan Blumlein, who successfully demonstrated a stereo variable area system in 1936, three years before Fantasound. The only difference between his system and Dolby A-type was that it didn't have any noise reduction of 2x4 matrix. The principle was exactly the same. Read all about it!
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-11-2003, 02:15 PM:
 
quote:
Theatres That *Were* Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound
I've come across some new information which can be added to the list, including the UA Pavilions in Scottsdale, Arizona.

I was surprised to find during my research that fairly large markets such as Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Houston, and Toronto do not appear to have had any CDS-equipped theatres. And in the Washington, D.C. area, the only location I could find info on was the one on the list from Bethesda, Maryland. Those markets, in most cases, played the CDS titles in 70mm-mag versions instead.

Re the Criterion Theatre in New York. Does anyone remember which theatre Final Approach played at? I don't have immediate access to any New York Times microfilm. Is it possible that Final Approach played in CDS at the Criterion, which may explain the difference of opinion expressed in this thread concerning that theatre's CDS status?

For those interested and for clarity, a revised list appears below. Thanks, everyone, for mentioning the theatres equipped for CDS that weren't present on the list from the first post of this thread. I hope everyone's memory is sharp. [Smile] A dependency on memory, rather than documentation or published data, is the number one enemy of research/historical projects of this type.

Theatres That Were Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) 1990-1992

Europe

BELGIUM
Brussels: Kinepolis (two screens)

DENMARK
Copenhagen: Imperial Bio
Copenhagen: Palads

FRANCE
Paris: Kinopanorama

GERMANY
Munich: Kinema

SWITZERLAND
Lausanne: ???
Zurich: ???

UNITED KINGDOM
London: Odeon Leicester Square
London: Odeon Marble Arch
West Thurrock: UCI Cinemas
West Thurrock: Warner Village Cinemas

.

North America

ARIZONA
Scottsdale: UA Scottsdale Pavilions

CALIFORNIA
Century City: AMC Century 14 (two screens)
Corte Madera: Pacific's Cinema
Emeryville: UA Emery Bay
Hollywood: Mann's Chinese
Hollywood: Pacific's Cinerama Dome
Hollywood: Pacific's El Capitan
La Mesa: Pacific's Grossmont Trolley
Lakewood: Pacific's Lakewood Center
Lakewood: Pacific's Regency 8
Marina del Rey: UA Cinema
Newport Beach: Edwards Newport
Pasadena: Pacific's Hastings
San Diego: UA Horton Plaza
San Francisco: UA Coronet
San Francisco: UA Galaxy
San Rafael: Regency
Santa Ana: AMC MainPlace
West Hollywood: GCC Beverly Connection
Westwood: GCC Avco (two screens)
Westwood: Mann's National
Westwood: Pacific's Crest
Westwood: UA Coronet

COLORADO
Denver: UA Continental

FLORIDA
Miami: UA Cinema At The Falls

GEORGIA
Atlanta: Cineplex Odeon Lenox Square

MARYLAND
Bethesda: UA Theatres Bethesda

NEW YORK
Manhattan: Cineplex Odeon Ziegfeld
Manhattan: Loews 84th Street Six
Manhattan: UA Gemini Twin

TEXAS
Dallas: UA Plaza
Ft. Worth: UA Hulen

VIRGINIA
Richmond: UA Midlothian

.

The Caribbean

PUERTO RICO
San Juan: Plaza

[ 08-19-2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Michael Coate ]
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 08-11-2003, 03:17 PM:
 
Leo wrote:

quote:

Don't forget the British engineer Alan Blumlein, who successfully demonstrated a stereo variable area system in 1936
The same idea was re-invented as 'Photo Stereo', in the '50s

The Blumlein material still exists, Dion Hanson runs prints of it in his 'Fantastic Formats' lectures. A standard sound head will read it, and a Dolby analogue CP will handle it if fitted with a simple link card to route Lt in to L out, and Rt in to R out, in place ogf the Cat. 150.

The material is purely expermental, mainly consisting of men dressed in white lab coats walking across the set whilst counting, but there is a short sequence of an amateur dramatic production.

Alan was a prolific inventor; I believe he was sadly killed during the war, at quite an early age.

Fantasound was a far more sophistcated system than anything that had gone before it. There's quite a lot of information on it in the Widescreen Museum, including photographs of the equipment, and it makes interesting reading.

We don't seem to be doing too well with preserving early stereo soundtracks:

Fantasound: Lost. Existing elements are derived from problematic magnetic transfers made in te '50s, and alterd since then in an attempt to restore the damage. It s difficult today to know what it actually sounded like at the time, and, of course, very few theatres ever presented the film in stereo.

1951 Festival of Britain 3-D film stereo tracks: Lost.

1950s Warnerphonic tracks from various 3-D films: Lost.

The Cinerama tracks have survived better than most, but I'm not sure if complete copies of all of them still exist.

I don't know the fate of the early Cinemascope tracks.
 
Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 08-11-2003, 07:22 PM:
 
I believe FINAL APPROACH played at the Gemini. I recall checking it out carefully as I was going to NYC about that time, and it had just closed there (I was going at Easter time.)

Should have been in the Jan-Mar 1992 time frame.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 08-11-2003, 11:12 PM:
 
Didn't "Final Approach" have its first limited screenings in the fall of 1991? I remember seeing NY and LA ads for a short engagement then (I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure the film played at the Gemini Twin). IMDB shows a 7/24/1991 French date that seems wierd given that's not the time of Cannes.

"Final Approach," unfortunately, is a weirdly done bad film that I found to be a crashing bore. I remember the teaser trailers proclaiming the film to be the first film to have 100% of its audio digitally recorded. The "Coming Attractions" show E! used to play movie trailers repeated that one frequently. The thing I found funny was the "wide" release date being push back farther and farther. And then it just disappeared off the radar scopes. Did this flick ever get any more than a couple prints and bookings made?
 
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 08-12-2003, 12:37 AM:
 
Frank, the print I saw had to have been either optical or magnetic in general release. The music was often jarringly de-synched (although I still had a strong imprint of the original to make a finer judgment than a general audience), & I still believe the performance was poor. It felt like it was wearing a straitjacket, which in a sense it was, when it was just trying hard to follow the '39 performance - which did not have any constraints. I give lots of room to new interpretations of things, & I'm a big silent film fan & enjoy different accompaniments, but that version of Fantasia barked louder than a neighbor's dog. I remember actually being angry at the show afterwards, it was that big of a mess.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-12-2003, 12:46 AM:
 
quote:
Didn't "Final Approach" have its first limited screenings in the fall of 1991?
I have some notes indicating the Los Angeles engagement began December 4, 1991. I'm unsure if L.A. was the first U.S. city in which the film ran. In other words, it certainly may have opened earlier than December 1991.

This December 4 run was a one-week exclusive at the UA Coronet. I think it played the Cinerama Dome at some point, as well...though I cannot recall if it was before or after or at the same time as the the Coronet run.
 
Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 08-14-2003, 05:18 PM:
 
Stephen

Photos of the PPT hybrid projector you mentioned incorporating all the various sound heads can be seen in a thread I opened some two years ago in Film Handlers Forum called "Complicated Threading Path"

Brad also posted photos of a working set up which was pretty scary
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-15-2003, 01:28 AM:
 
quote:
Films in CDS
Flatliners
For the Boys
Universal Soldier
quote:
While these three titles were certainly announced for release in CDS, I think the verdict is still out on them actually getting released that way...at least in the U.S.
OK, I'll answer my own question.... Was recently sent this information.... This should also clarify when the 35mm version of CDS was introduced....

Film Journal International (February 1991) included the article, "35mm CDS Debuts In Munich Multiplex," which mentioned the debut of 35mm-CDS in December 1990 with Flatliners.

Boxoffice (April 1991) included "Cinema Digital Sound: Making The Movies Come Alive," which detailed the U.S. debut of 35mm-CDS. "In December [1990], 35 and 70mm CDS prints for 20th Century Fox's Edward Scissorhands played in four markets in the United States."
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-15-2003, 08:36 PM:
 
William said: Frank, the print I saw had to have been either optical or magnetic in general release.

Very interesting. It would be fun to actually research this because I was under the impression that because the critics were so outraged that Disney had tampered with the original film (editing out the Deems Taylor segments and rearranging the sequences) that they pulled it almost immediately after its initial digital playdates. In fact, when I tried to book it right on the heels of the NYC Ziegfeld engagement, a Disney booker insisted that the Kostal version, even if he could book it for us -- which he couldn't because it was already "out of service"-- did not have any analog prints. According to him, it was only produced for the digital release and was not to play any analog engagements. Obviously he was misinformed (how unusual-a booker who doesn;t know anything about the inventory) seeing as how years later I wound up with an SR print, albeit by accident. And OF COURSE there would be an analog track for backup, ESPECIALLY for a down and dirty system with no proven track record.

Point being, it was such an embarrassment for the studio that right after the initial digital release, it was pulled from the release roster. To the best of my knowledge, there were never any mag prints made of this vision. Are you sure you weren't actually watching a digital interlock presentation? because I can tell you that watching/listening to the this version playing the SR track and not the digital interlock, the music matched the image almost a perfectly as did Stokowski's.

Frank

[ 08-15-2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2003, 11:28 AM:
 
Toronto's Uptown almost had cds for Dick Tracy but at the same time a labour dispute stopped the installation and it was shown in regular mag 70
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-16-2003, 11:55 AM:
 
quote:
To the best of my knowledge, there were never any mag prints made of this vision.
The newly digitally-recorded FANTASIA made it's debut late 1983 with both Dolby-encoded 4-track mag and Dolby Stereo Optical prints in special engagements (in Los Angeles, it was paired up with Michael Jackson's Thriller). The actual playback in digital debuted in early 1985 in Los Angeles (Plitt Century Plaza) and NYC (Ziegfeld). A sound technician was on duty at all showings to run the audio end.

AT this time the film was quite widely across the nation that spring (widely for this film, that is) with both Dolby Stereo optical and a few Dolby encoded 4-track mag prints (probably made when this version was first released in 1983 in limited theatres).
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-16-2003, 05:13 PM:
 
quote:
The newly digitally-recorded FANTASIA made it's debut late 1983
Didn't this version debut in '82?
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-16-2003, 05:22 PM:
 
quote:
Didn't this version debut in '82?
Perhaps. I think the L.A. first-run showing was in 1983, though. (Avco Westwood)
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-16-2003, 05:56 PM:
 
quote:
I think the L.A. first-run showing was in 1983, though.
I have a photocopy of the Theatre Directory from the San Francisco Chronicle showing Fantasia playing at the Northpoint (in "Digital Magnetic Stereo"). It's an undated ad (because the copy doesn't encompass the entire newspaper page), but one can determine the approximate timeframe by observing other movies listed in the directory, such as Quest For Fire (at the Coronet), which opened there in March 1982 (and certainly didn't play into 1983).

Some of the Disney historical/reference books list '82 as being among the film's many re-releases. It appears to have been in release from '82 through '84 and even into '85 (though some sources identify '85 as yet another official re-release in addition to the digital experiment screenings discussed in this thread), with different regions playing it at different times, rather than a single, saturation-type release. You mentioned L.A. getting it in '83, and I remember Phoenix, Arizona running it in summer '84.

So I guess my point is, despite the staggered playdates the earliest possible date should be considered the "true" date of the re-release, at least for a discussion of this type.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-16-2003, 11:09 PM:
 
well, Im just happy you were able to dig up your documentation since your last post! [Smile]
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-17-2003, 02:15 AM:
 
Leave it to the ad copy people to really clarify things; what does Digital Magnetic Stereo mean? Does this mean it was the PCM tape running in semi-sync? It *was* mag tape, so I suppose that is technically correct?

Frank
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-17-2003, 02:22 AM:
 
I'll bet it was just a mag stereo print of the digitally recorded version the Northpoint showed, though Since allegedly the actual PCM playback version didn't debut until early 1985 at the Plitt Century Plaza and Ziegfeld.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-17-2003, 07:50 PM:
 
quote:
Leave it to the ad copy people to really clarify things; what does Digital Magnetic Stereo mean?
As Paul mentioned, I interpret the ad to mean the print was 35mm 4-track mag, with the content being the (then) new digital re-recording.

Sure, ad copy folks often come across as being clueless or who deliberately mislead, but here was a case where they knew that the word "digital" could be used as a buzzword...just like it often is today.

quote:
the print I saw had to have been either optical or magnetic in general release.
quote:
Very interesting. It would be fun to actually research this because I was under the impression that because the critics were so outraged that Disney had tampered with the original film that they pulled it almost immediately after its initial digital playdates.
Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but allow me to take a stab at listing the release history of Fantasia, noting the audio formats for each release. You guys can figure out which versions you've screened and what their differences may have been.

1940 Original Release
Fantasound
Optical mono

1946 Re-release
Optical mono

1956 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono

1963 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono

1969 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono

1977 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono

1982 Re-release
Mag stereo (Dolby)
Mag stereo (non-Dolby?)
Optical stereo (Dolby)
Optical mono (?)

1985 Special Screenings
Digital interlock experiments

1985 Re-release
Mag stereo (Dolby)
Optical stereo (Dolby)

1990 Re-release
Optical stereo (Dolby A)
Optical stereo (Dolby SR)
70mm six-track (standard baby boom format?)
70mm six-track (Fantasound)

Sources:
American Cinematographer (February 1991)

Disney A To Z: The Updated Official Encyclopedia, 1996

Film collectors' one-sheet collections

several newspaper advertisements

Additional comments:
There were a limited number of "Fantasound" 70mm prints created for the 1990 re-release -- the engagement at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood was among them -- and the American Cinematographer article goes into detail on its special three-screen, three-surround, non-standard channel configuration.

Many of the newspaper ads from the '63, '69, and '77 re-releases boasted that the film could be heard "For The First Time In Stereophonic Sound!"

Re the 4-track mag prints - I don't know if they were mag-only or mag-optical or both via multiple inventory.

A Deseret News (Salt Lake City, Utah) newspaper article from '77 mentioned that year's re-release being available with 70mm blow-up prints. I suspect the article's author was confusing "35mm 4-track" with "70mm 6-track"...but you never know.

The book Wide Screen Movies (1988) claims Tommy (1975) was the film released in the most sound formats. I think a case has been made that Fantasia may hold that distinction (particularly if one factors in the numerous print format differences -- Academy, Academy cropped to 1.85:1, Superscope, 1.37:1 optically positioned within 1.85:1, 70mm blow-up, etc.).

To add further cloudiness to the many details contributed by all of us within this thread, Wide Screen Movies also claims: "Re-edited, rescored by Irwin Kostal, and re-issued in 1984 in 1.75x1 with digitally mastered Dolby Stereo."

[ 08-18-2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Michael Coate ]
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-19-2003, 05:10 AM:
 
Wow, Michael, I am up in my seat applauding. Great research. The funny thing is, my experience with Disney over the years, and that includes many long drawn out battles over this particular title, trying specifically to get mag prints...the list would give one the impression that they had mag prints galore, and when Dolby entered the picture -- bingo, Dolby was added to the inventory, any thing you wanted. When in fact, all I ever wanted, was to run it in 4trk mag. in the 70s before Dolby and after Dolby, in ANY stereo format -- Dolby or mag. Yet, I always got the same answer -- Nope. No stereo prints."

I once saw a print inventory list for EARTHQUAKE and there were a bunch of formats supposedly struck. But just try and get one of those 4 track mag/ops that they claim there were dozens made, all the while the NY branch manager is insists they never had any such prints in their inventory.

Same with FANTASIA. Well into the late 70s, I had to play it on two different occasions with only mono prints available. And the very curious thing was that this was at a time when the list says there were mag prints in 63, 69, 77, and 82. Well, if there were that many re-releases, all with mag prints, then all I can say is that some executive was selling them under the table to collector friends because they never made it to Tippy Spirty's office (yes, was his real name) at Buena Vista NYC. All I ever got from him was the same story, "Frank, how many times we gotta go over this....all we got is 'regular' prints. Just play it loud, kid, no one will know the difference. Besides, why are you always bugging me about mag prints anyway; none of my other theatres ever wants 'em." (I swear that is an almost verbatim quote -- it's burned into my brain cells -- I used to have to bite the tip of my tongue so as not to cuss at him over the phone). And if all these mag prints were being played, how is it that in order for me to be able to get a mag print, I had to futz around with the "Superscope" release back in the early 70s? And they didn't even want to give THAT to me 'cept I was BEGGING them.

I am not sure of some of those dates. The Kostal version was released in 85 and the list claims that it had mag prints? That kind of goes against what I had always heard -- that mag prints had fallen off the radar earlier than that, and in fact, Striesand had to fight to get a lab to make a few mag prints of YENTL because by 83, predating the Kostal release, no one was making mag prints. Or at least that's what I understood.

Anyway, as I said, even though they may have MADE mag prints of the Kostal version, it is hard to determine how much play it ever got because of the very bad press issue. They simply may not have ever let anyone play it after the press releases in first run.

I was so excited by the Kostal presentation at the Ziegfeld that it hadn't closed but a day there and I was on the phone hounding BV for a booking. Amazingly, it was already 'out of service.'

I wish they would release the Kostal version on DVD -- that will settle it once and for all.

Again, thanks; Mike -- very cool research.

Frank
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 08-19-2003, 09:43 AM:
 
quote:
But just try and get one of those 4 Track mag/opt that they claim there were dozens made, all while the NY Branch Manager is insists they never had any such prints in their inventory.
Frank there were a few 4 Track mag/opt prints in the Los Angeles depot over the years. It ran at the Chinese Theatre in Hollywood and also at the Picwood Theatre in West Los Angeles in full 4 Track mag/opt. During the mid 90's we ran two different prints that were 4 Track mag/opt. Universal destroyed many of their later 4 Track prints and extra 70MM prints, because they found they could save on storage costs and no one booked the prints many times after they 2nd runs.
As of the mid 90's, I saw about 6 different 4 Track mag/opt prints of "Fantasia" in the Los Angeles depot, just sitting there. And when NFS closed their Los Angeles depot. They left hundreds of prints sitting in their warehouse for the landlord to destroy.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-19-2003, 11:30 AM:
 
Frank

The Kostal vesrion first debuted in 1982. It is likely the 1985 MAG prints put into release were made then. (Yentl wasn't the last mag film released in 1983. Scarface followed by a few weeks without NR. AGAINST ALL ODDS had some Dolby 4-track mags made and was released at the end of January, 1984. AFAIK, this was the last 35mm mag release).
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-19-2003, 12:18 PM:
 
quote:
AGAINST ALL ODDS had some Dolby 4-track mags made and was released at the end of January, 1984. AFAIK, this was the last 35mm mag release).
Re the last films released with mag prints.

I cannot confirm the existence of such prints, but I've seen references to mag prints of The Natural and Ghostbusters, both released after Against All Odds.

As for any mag prints of Fantasia available during 1985, my guess is that they were created in '82.
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-22-2003, 12:09 AM:
 
quote:
1969 Re-release
Mag stereo
Optical mono
WAS the 1969 re-release in mag stereo?

BTW, from the FANTASIA Legacy DVD, is the following release schedule of FANTASIA and a description of each version:

ORIGINAL ROADSHOW VERSION
November 12, 1940
TRT: 02:04:22

MODIFIED RECUT
January 10, 1941
This date corresponds with RKO Pictures’ takeover of the Roadshow Release. The 20-second running time difference may simply be the addition of an RKO Radio Distribution credit tag.
TRT: 02:04:42

EDITED “SHORT” VERSION
January 6, 1942
This is the brutally cut 81-minute version, released nationwide to a bewildered public with the sales line “Fantasia Will Amazia.”
TRT: 01:20:59

1947 POPULAR VERSION
Jul, 1947
For this first national re-release, the animated sequences remained mostly intact, while the interstitial segments of Stokowski, Deems Taylor, and the orchestra were shortened, voiced over, or removed. This cut was the basis of the 1990 restoration and re-release.
TRT: 01:55:45

SUPERSCOPE VERSION
February 7, 1956
For this second reissue, the picture element was optically converted from the Academy Standard 1.33x1 to the 2x1 SuperScope aspect ratio. This resulted in cropping and reframing of the visual images. The original Fantasound optical audio tracks were transferred to magnetic media, and the film was released in stereophonic sound.
TRT: 01:55:45

FOUR TRACK STEREO VERSION
February 20, 1963
Though unclear in existing records, this third reissue appears to have been available to exhibitors in both SuperScope and standard versions, both with magnetic stereo tracks. The additional 53 seconds in this version’s running time is unexplained.
TRT: 01:56:38

FOURTH REISUUE
December 17, 1969
Although it was for this release that censorship deletions of embarrassing stereotypes in the “Pastoral” segment were made, the running time noted is the same as the foundational 1947 cut.
TRT: 01:55:45

FIFTH CUTTING
1976
Not technically a re-release, since Fantasia was offered fairly perpetually for exhibition from the mid-1960’s until the late 1970’s (usually in “art” houses in college towns). This was a re-cutting, replacing the RKO Radio logo with the Buena Vista Distribution logo. (RKO had not distributed Fantasia since its 1947 release, but their logo had not been removed, since it involved re-shooting the credit card.

FIFTH REISSUE
April 15, 1977
This was a national re-release with a new advertising campaign highlighting the magnetic stereo sound to an audience that had rediscovered the wonder of movies in stereo. The reason for the two and a half-minute cut in running time is unclear.
TRT: 01:53:10

SIXTH REISSUE
April 2, 1982
In this heavily promoted re-release, the Stokowski track was replaced, and famed Broadway and Hollywood conductor/arranger Irwin Kostal re-recorded the entire score in an all-new digital Dolby optical stereo version. The interstitials were completely removed, replaced with breathless narration and nondescript inter-titles.
TRT: 01:53:10

SEVENTH REISSUE
02/08/85
TRT: 01:54:16

EIHTH REISSUE
(50th Anniversary) Edition
1990
The picture element was completely restored from as many of the original camera elements as still existed. The original Stokowski soundtrack was digitally restored and rejuvenated. This cut used the 1947 edition as a prototype, although through reframing and repeating shots, the censorship deletions of the 1969 version were again made, but much more subtly.
TRT: 01:55;45

RETSORED ROADSHOW VERSION
June, 2000
For a companion showing with FANTASIA 2000 at the Animation Film Festival in Annesy, France, the original 1940 Roadshow Release visual elements were reassembled. Much of the interstitial audio was missing, and was re-recorded by Corey Burton. For the sake of audio continuity, even the existing Deems Taylor narration had to be replaced. Further audio and visual restoration to the animated segments was executed for video release.
TRT: 02:04:22
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-22-2003, 04:19 AM:
 
The material states: "since Fantasia was offered fairly perpetually for exhibition from the mid-1960’s until the late 1970’s (usually in “art” houses in college towns)."

Well, maybe on a parallel planet it was offered fairly perpetually, but not in Brooklyn, NY. As this is a work that I have always seen as Disney's greatest achievement and I run an art house, I would play this title EVERY YEAR if only I could. Fact is, Buena Vista hardly EVER had this title "in service" and I have a file folder two inches thick with letters that span two decades documenting battle upon battle just to get a booking -- letters that went all the way up to the president of Disney to vice presidents (lots to Phil Barlow) trying to hammer out a simple bookings. So to say it was "perpetually" in release is not the reality I know first hand. And again, the idea that magnetic prints were readily available is not my experience. I will gladly bow to anyone who thinks they can pick up a phone, make a call to Buena Vista and book a mag print of FANTASIA and then add that you want the Kostal version.....in 4 track mag. Anyone who wants to try should record the response so it can be shared with the forum. It will be a very interesting conversation if you can get past any of these sentences in the first ten seconds, "Oh, it's not in service." or "Sorry, there are no prints." or "What version? That's been discontinued and every print has been distroyed."

Mind you, you will hear these all the while there are those prints just sitting in the depots.

I guest what I am saying is, don't be fooled by the fact that filmology lists suggest there were mag prints readily avaliable for years. There's the print inventory lists on paper, and then there's reality of what's really available to a theatre. There are marketing people at distribution who, for whatever irrational reason, seem to think it makes sense to take titles 'out of service,' even when anyone can rent the video for two bucks. No doubt about it, this is a weird business.

Frank
 
Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 08-22-2003, 01:59 PM:
 
Frank,

Im not sure anything I posted said that mag prints are available NOW. But if you were to book the film in 1977 through 1980 or so, the print would have been a magnetic one. That was when the film was advertised as "Now in Stereophonic Sound." It was never shown at any given time during this release widely in any city. Mostly exclusive engagements were the rule here, and they appeared in different cities at different times.

The release strategy of Fantasia in the 70's (and even the 80's with the new score) was to book the film on a market by market basis. And the film was never just available at any given time by a theatre. I happen to know of a theatre that wanted to use it as filler, but was told by Disney it was too soon (within two years) of the last booking in that market. The manager did get the Stereophonic Sound version booked in 1978, however.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 08-24-2003, 04:50 PM:
 
CDS update.... For those who are bored, read another thread. [Smile] For those with an interest, allow me to share a few pieces of information recently referenced. At the tail-end of this post, an updated theatre list will appear which will include a few newly-added New York and international sites.

quote:
It was the film "Days of Thunder" that had the massive failure at Mann's National Theatre in Westwood. I believe it was a heat issue of the unit in the booth.
From Variety, July 4, 1990:
"New Digital Sound System Snafus At 'Thunder' Sites"

A glitch in a heralded new sound system forced several theaters to pull prints of "Days Of Thunder" over the weekend.

Officials of the joint venture of Eastman Kodak and Optical Radiation Corporation could not be reached for an explanation of the failure of their Digital Cinema Sound [sic]. But film's distrib, Paramount, confirmed that the much-advertised digital prints were pulled from at least three theaters.

Key houses lost were Mann's Chinese Theater in Hollywood and its National in Westwood, and Pacific's Cinema Theater in Corte Madera in Northern California. It's understood the same problem may have developed at Pacific's Lakewood house, but no one at the exhibitor's office could confirm.

A Cinema staffer said some "Thunder" dialog began dropping out in the sixth screening after the Wednesday opening. Par quickly arranged for the houses to switch to 70mm Dolby prints.

Digital Cinema Sound [sic] also is used on "Dick Tracy," but a Buena spokesman said that film has had no troubles, suggesting to some that the "Thunder" blunder may have been due to the rush to get pic ready for its opening.

.

quote:
Didn't Final Approach have its first limited screenings in the fall of 1991? I remember seeing NY and LA ads for a short engagement then (I'm not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure the film played at the Gemini Twin).
OK, I looked this up in The New York Times, and it indeed ran at the Gemini Twin. The engagement began March 13, 1992. I suppose it could've played in NY on more than one occasion, but if it did, it wasn't at the same time as the December 1991 L.A. run.

.

quote:
The IMDB shows a 7/24/91 French date that seems weird given that's not the time of Cannes.
What, the French don't ever go to the movies except at the Cannes Film Festival?? [Smile]

.

From Variety, July 29, 1991 ("Digital Demise For 70mm?"):

Final Approach was slated to open July 24 in Paris at five theaters, all equipped for digital sound.

.

Re the Criterion Center in NY and whether it had CDS. Since no substantial evidence has been revealed as to this theatre's CDS status, I have a theory. Perhaps people are remembering it as an early digital sound venue because (1) Terminator 2 ran there (in 70mm-magnetic) at the same time several other New York area theatres were running it in CDS, and (2) the Criterion was among the first wave of theatres to install Dolby Digital in 1992.

.

Also from Variety on July 29, 1991 re Terminator 2's CDS release:

Data provided by theaters indicate that 35mm prints using CDS digital sound grossed 60.8% more than the 35mm analog stereo prints playing head to head at the same multiplexes booking the TriStar release in its first week.

Varying size of "T2" venues plus soldout screenings at all houses that week may blunt the significance of that figure. But for the second week of the run, in which fewer sellout performances were recorded, the CDS screens outgrossed their analog counterparts by 87.1%.

.

Re the first 35mm-CDS releases. From " 'Doors' Breaks On Through 35mm CDS," Variety, March 1, 1991:

Carolco's "The Doors" film today becomes the first to open in 35mm Cinema Digital Sound in multiple theaters.

.

In a May 1990 Los Angeles Times article, it was predicted that over 100 theaters would be outfitted with Cinema Digital Sound by Christmas of that year. A June Variety article mentioned the initial marketing strategy was to equip 150 theatres with CDS.

.

Re CDS in the United Kingdom. An August 1991 article in Screen International mentioned two theatres in Thurrock having been outfitted with CDS. (The two cinemas identified were the same two mentioned earlier in the thread.) However, no mention was made of any London theatres having the system, and the article was written after the release of T2.

.

Theatres That Were Equipped To Play Cinema Digital Sound (CDS) 1990-1992

North America
ARIZONA
Scottsdale: UA Scottsdale Pavilions

CALIFORNIA
Century City: AMC Century 14 (two screens)
Corte Madera: Pacific's Cinema
Emeryville: UA Emery Bay
Hollywood: Mann's Chinese
Hollywood: Pacific's Cinerama Dome
Hollywood: Pacific's El Capitan
La Mesa: Pacific's Grossmont Trolley
Lakewood: Pacific's Lakewood Center
Lakewood: Pacific's Regency 8
Marina del Rey: UA Cinema
Newport Beach: Edwards Newport
Pasadena: Pacific's Hastings
San Diego: UA Horton Plaza
San Francisco: UA Coronet
San Francisco: UA Galaxy
San Rafael: Pacific's Regency
Santa Ana: AMC MainPlace
West Hollywood: GCC Beverly Connection
Westwood: GCC Avco (two screens)
Westwood: Mann's National
Westwood: Pacific's Crest
Westwood: UA Coronet

COLORADO
Denver: UA Continental

FLORIDA
Miami: UA The Falls

GEORGIA
Atlanta: Cineplex Odeon Lenox Square

MARYLAND
Bethesda: UA Theatres Bethesda

NEW JERSEY
West Windsor: UA Movies At Market Fair

NEW YORK
Brooklyn: UA Movies At Sheepshead Bay
Manhattan: Cineplex Odeon Ziegfeld
Manhattan: Guild Embassy 1
Manhattan: Loews 84th Street Six
Manhattan: UA Gemini Twin

TEXAS
Dallas: UA Plaza
Fort Worth: UA Hulen

.

Europe
BELGIUM
Brussels: Decatron Kinepolis (two screens)

DENMARK
Copenhagen: Imperial Bio
Copenhagen: Palads

FRANCE
Paris: Kinopanorama

GERMANY
Munich: Kinema

GREECE
???

ITALY
???

SWEDEN
???

SWITZERLAND
Lausanne: ???
Zurich: ???

UNITED KINGDOM
West Thurrock: UCI Cinemas
West Thurrock: Warner Village Cinemas

Industry and private screening rooms have not been included.

[ 09-08-2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Michael Coate ]
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 09-02-2003, 02:14 PM:
 
Bill Enos wrote:
quote:
U.A. Midlothian Cinema, Richmond, Va.
Bill,
I've looked into this and can find no evidence that this theatre was ever equipped with CDS. I've checked local Richmond newspaper ads for a couple of the CDS titles (including T2, which was the widest CDS release) and no CDS engagements seem to have been advertised.

In addition, since initiating this thread I've secured a Kodak/Optical Radiation Corporation trade ad from summer 1991 which identified the U.S. cities that had CDS screens. Richmond was not included in the ad.

So...why do you believe the UA Midlothian was a CDS-equipped theatre? Did you work there as a projectionist or manager and know first-hand that the venue had the system? Or did you attend the theatre as a moviegoer? What film(s) do you remember seeing there in CDS? Or, is this just another foggy memory?
 
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-03-2003, 01:21 PM:
 
While ads are not always reliable, a CDS advertisement in the August, 1990 issue of Boxoffice magazine, lists the following theaters as being CDS capable as part of the introduction:

AMC's Century 14, Los Angeles
AMC's Main Place, Santa Ana
Edward's Newport, Newport Beach, CA
GC Beverly Connection, Los Angeles
Loew's 84th St, NYC
Mann's Chinese, Hollywood
Mann's National, Westwood
Pacific's Cinema, Marin County
Pacific's Crest, Westwood
Pacific's Lakewood Center, Lakewood, CA
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 09-03-2003, 01:29 PM:
 
Martin,

Back up a few posts and you'll see that all of those theatres have been accounted for.
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-26-2007, 08:20 PM:
 

It has been 1300 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-26-2007, 08:20 PM:
 
Woops...sorry. Purposely blank.
 
Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-26-2007, 08:39 PM:
 
I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that on page 1 of this thread I said:
quote:

I can't stand the AMC Century City 14. I can't believe that so many people (in hollywood!) would want to wacth a movie in such small thatres with tiny screens, awfull sound, and projectionists who cant seem to focus for ****. AMC should bulldoze that sucker and rebuild a nice theatre in its place.

HA! Called it!
 
Posted by Sam King (Member # 4029) on 03-27-2007, 12:09 AM:
 
I still don't see any picstures nor links to any pictures of the actual processor and reader. I'd love to see them! :-D

Sam
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-27-2007, 12:42 AM:
 
When I get a little extra time I will photograph my system for you.
 
Posted by Sam King (Member # 4029) on 03-27-2007, 01:05 AM:
 
quote:
I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that on page 1 of this thread I said:
quote: Mike Olpin

I can't stand the AMC Century City 14. I can't believe that so many people (in hollywood!) would want to wacth a movie in such small thatres with tiny screens, awfull sound, and projectionists who cant seem to focus for ****. AMC should bulldoze that sucker and rebuild a nice theatre in its place.

HA! Called it!
And I actually miss the old AMC 14. At least it had 5 good sized houses with good sized screens!

[ 03-27-2007, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]
 
Posted by Christos Mitsakis (Member # 143) on 03-27-2007, 09:17 AM:
 
It was on ebay amonth ago or so

CDS processor:
-

Penthouse reader:
-
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-27-2007, 10:54 AM:
 
Was there a 35mm only version of the reader, or did you have to buy the dual-guage version, even if you only ever ran 35?

I can't understand why the processor had to be so big; the Dolby and SDDS ones were only slightly later, and they were only a fraction of the size.
 
Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-27-2007, 12:19 PM:
 
It looks like a rack mountable mini-fridge.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-27-2007, 01:37 PM:
 
Not the most elegant or compact system, but it was the first that put "bits on film" for true digital sound.

quote:
And Along Comes Digital Audio

In 1990, the Optical Radiation Corporation in collaboration with the Eastman Kodak Company introduced the world’s first digital audio format for film. Called Cinema Digital Sound, or CDS, it was first introduced to the public with the 70mm release of Dick Tracy. Unfortunately, it only enjoyed a handful of releases before ORC pulled the format from the marketplace. CDS was a highly engineered technology, incorporating an error detection and correction scheme in the printed bit map to ensure robustness of the digital signal. The bit map itself was impressive. Thanks to the support of Eastman Kodak and specially developed film stock, the format boasted a very tiny pixel size, giving the format lots of digital bandwidth on the film. Audio was recorded without data compression, but instead of the commonly used 16-bit linear PCM scale, it used a custom 12-bit logarithmic scale that produced excellent sound with a 90 dB dynamic range. Despite its clever engineering, CDS suffered from a major shortcoming, that being that the actual recorded digital sound track for 35mm films was placed where the stereo optical track normally resides. In other words, there wasn’t a stereo optical track that could be used as a backup. CDS also suffered from playback equipment problems, which, combined with the absence of a backup track, turned the major filmmakers away from the format.

Optical Radiation’s CDS format should be remembered as the pioneer for today’s digital film sound formats. They were the first to introduce digital audio to the theatre, and the first to implement a discrete version of today’s popular 5.1 technique in a major exhibition format. The impact of the 5.1 format has been tremendous. From an artistic point-of-view, discrete digital sound has been a real boon, as it frees the mixers from the limitations and hassle of mixing audio for the matrix. Full range and discrete surround channels have given the mixers the ability to use these channels much more freely. If one were to listen to the mixes of today and those of 10 years ago, the degree of artistic freedom that the digital formats offer will be obvious.
quote:
The first commercially available digital sound-on-film system for theatrical motion pictures, CDS is gone now. Today we have DTS-Digital, Dolby Digital, and Sony Dynamic Digital Sound. In fact SDDS was designed by some of those who pioneered CDS.

What went wrong? Well opinions here vary. Some would say that the choice to use minimal data reduction and the resulting very small bit (pixel) size made the system much more susceptible to every type of problem including print wear, film lab errors etc. Others will point out the fact that the lack of a backup analog track (In 35mm CDS sound was printed in the same area were the analog optical track would normally go) would forever make CDS a premium process, requiring dual print inventories, not to mention making the occasional breakdown catastrophic and reputation destroying. Some have said the electronics simply wasn't reliable enough for hot projection booths. But everyone agreed on this: When it worked and it really DID work quite well the vast majority of the time, IT SOUNDED GREAT!


[ 03-27-2007, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-27-2007, 01:55 PM:
 
John, I had to remove your link because it was half a dozen links all jumbled upon each other and was causing the page to not format properly.
 
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-27-2007, 02:06 PM:
 
Thanks. I saw the problem, and was trying to reformat the link.

Unfortunately, one of my links was on the Film-Tech banned list, but it has a really good CDS summary.
 
Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-27-2007, 02:24 PM:
 
quote: Stephen Furley
Was there a 35mm only version of the reader, or did you have to buy the dual-guage version, even if you only ever ran 35?
The only reader available was the 70MM/35mm dual version. Because CDS premiered as a 70MM print format before the 35mm format was ready. And the problems with "Days of Thunder" in 70MM CDS in Los Angeles. Caused by the unit over- heating and the print with no backup track. They lost a major show on opening day. The company never introduced a 35mm only version of the reader. When you ran the CDS format they wanted you to keep track of error codes and print problems on the processor. Another print problem happened with "Dick Tracy" in 70MM CDS, Gilboy in Pico Rivera, CA (film depot). Mixed a few prints or sent the wrong 70MM version the theatres booked. It was about three theatres that it happened to.
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-27-2007, 03:07 PM:
 
I once saw a reader at Bletchley Park, but I never saw the processor, and I never heard the system. I'm not even sure if it ever had any public shows over here. The reader looked quite nicely engineered.
 
Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 03-27-2007, 03:32 PM:
 
quote: Stephen Furley
I'm not even sure if it ever had any public shows over here. The reader looked quite nicely engineered.
I recall that the AMC 10 Multiplex (now Odeon/UCI) at High Wycombe and and the Warner Theatre in the West End London,but not certain that was the Cinema in London with CDS.
 
Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 03-27-2007, 03:53 PM:
 
CDS was also installed at the former UCI (now the Odeon) West Thurrock, Lakeside Retail Park, Grays, West Thurrock, Essex. Members of the CEA were invited by the MD to any screening of Terminator 2. Unfortunately I never had the time to attend. I heard that the quality was excellent.
 
Posted by Sam King (Member # 4029) on 03-27-2007, 04:23 PM:
 
My, what a snazzy reader and such a streamlined processor! It's like something out of the not-so-distant future!
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-27-2007, 07:28 PM:
 
...if you want some good reading on the CDS subject .. and this bring back tons of memories on these KODAK "Film Notes for the Reel People" booklets that I used to get all the time ...

..great booth education can come out of these publications..
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-28-2007, 07:23 AM:
 
The reader (in the picture) is a 'repurposed' Century mag head. Was that the way all CDS readers were sold?
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-28-2007, 08:45 AM:
 
John,

If you are referring to the picture on the previous page...you are most mistaken. It is not a repurposed R31 (Mag head).

However, since ORC was the owner of Century Projector corp at the time, they used JJ parts since they already existed and were in production for the sprockets, guides and pad rollers.
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-28-2007, 10:58 AM:
 
it is an entirely different casting but uses many parts from the JJ penthouse as Steve said.
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-28-2007, 11:53 AM:
 
Ah, I see. I had just looked at the pad roller parts. Too bad about CDS; I guess it was just a little too ahead of it's time.
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 03-28-2007, 12:14 PM:
 
Does anyone know if any CDS prints are available to rent? We've got a processor/reader that I presume works and it might be fun to set it up and give it a try (especially if I can get a second reader to do changeover).

[beer]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-28-2007, 12:21 PM:
 
Yes, Sony has saved a 70mm CDS print of all of their titles. Contact Sony repertory to book them.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-05-2007, 05:28 AM:
 
quote: Robert Minichino
Does anyone know if any CDS prints are available to rent?
quote: Brad Miller
Yes, Sony has saved a 70mm CDS print of all of their titles. Contact Sony repertory to book them.
Of the ten titles believed to have been released in CDS, five of them were released through Sony (i.e. Columbia or TriStar). However, three of those five were produced by Carolco and merely distributed by Sony, so I'm unsure if Sony holds any rights. (The Carolco assets, I believe, have switched hands a number of times. Carolco >>>> LIVE >>>> Artisan >>>> Lions Gate >>>> Lionsgate.) And I believe only one of the Sony titles was in CDS on 70mm.

Good luck booking any of these!

DAYS OF THUNDER (1990, Paramount, 70mm)
DICK TRACY (1990, Buena Vista, 70mm)
THE DOORS (1991, Sony, 35mm)
EDWARD SCISSORHANDS (1990, Fox, 35mm, 70mm)
FINAL APPROACH (1991, Trimark, 35mm)
FLATLINERS (1990, Sony, 35mm)
FOR THE BOYS (1991, Fox, 35mm?, 70mm?)
HUDSON HAWK (1991, Sony, 35mm)
TERMINATOR 2: JUDGMENT DAY (1991, Sony, 35mm, 70mm)
UNIVERSAL SOLDIER (1992, Sony, 35mm)
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-05-2007, 07:37 AM:
 
According to a Paramount rep a few years back, they junked all CDS Days of Thunder prints. They do have a very nice 70mm mag print of that title in the Dallas depot though. I've ran it.

Technicolor holds print #6 to Terminator II in CDS. It is in near mint condition, but does have some splices in it.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-05-2007, 08:10 AM:
 
Remember the CDS prints have no backup track; if you book one, get a 35mm backup print in case the cds lets you down. Louis
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 04-05-2007, 01:31 PM:
 
Yeah, if I went through with it I'd probably interlock the 35mm print to it and at least switch the sound over if the CDS failed. I need my head examined.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-05-2007, 02:41 PM:
 
Don't forget Robert, those are all used prints (and I'll bet Michael Coate can tell us if any ran changeover playdates). Even if there WERE prints that were ran on changeover, there is no guarantee that they were not built to large reels. So either way the odds are that all of the CDS print's leaders have been cut and are probably missing frames.) As such you would have to run a frame count on every reel and every splice you happen across to "conform" the 35mm print, possibly even having to insert black footage. That's an awful lot of trouble!
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-05-2007, 03:42 PM:
 
back in the day......cds makes the case for analog!!!! Louis
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-05-2007, 05:14 PM:
 
Who remembers the DLS6 from Strong??? This pre DTS processor stored its 6 track audio on 12" Laserdisk. I was claening out some old junk the other day and found a brochure for it. I don't think they ever sold any and I wonder if this was nothing more than a mock up...? It almost looks to have some EPRAD blood to it...

Mark
 
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 04-05-2007, 05:29 PM:
 
Mark, I've been racking my pea-brain trying to remember that system's designation/nomenclature/manufacturer.

Sorta like the pre-cursor to the DTS CD disc system but on LaserDisc.

I saw it years ago at a (SMPTE?, ShoWest?, NAB?) equipment show.

I was NOT impressed.
 
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-05-2007, 05:54 PM:
 
quote: Robert Minichino
Yeah, if I went through with it I'd probably interlock...
Wow! You have multiple CDS units? One in each auditorium, perhaps? Interlock the print through the whole complex. [Razz]
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-05-2007, 06:09 PM:
 
yes I remeber seeing it at showeast and went to a demo at a theatre in vegas for showest one year
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-06-2007, 02:18 AM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Who remembers the DLS6 from Strong??? This pre DTS processor stored its 6 track audio on 12" Laserdisk.
I've heard of it, but never saw it.

Don't forget the LC Concepts system that used recordable magneto-optical discs; and didn't somebody have a system that had the digital audio on some sort of tape, a modified U-Matic video system, or something similar?
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 04-06-2007, 07:51 AM:
 
Might the video tape have been using the Sony PCM-1?

And didn't Kinoton/Arri have something like DTS?
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-06-2007, 09:11 AM:
 
quote: Robert Minichino
Might the video tape have been using the Sony PCM-1?
I don't know, but I think it was something similar.

quote: Robert Minichino
And didn't Kinoton/Arri have something like DTS?
Yes, I seem to remember there being something on one of the BKSTS wallcharts; the timecode was down one edge, outside the perfs, if I remember correctly.

Thank goodness some of these systems never made it; we'd have films released in about eight different formats! At least all of the surviving ones can be put on the same print.
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-06-2007, 10:11 AM:
 
The most notable use of a tape based PCM system was used for a run on Disney's Fantasia. LC Concept was popular in France and DTS negotiated some of similarity between their systems to be the final supplier. There was a person in the USA that had a concept to read the analog track and sync it to a digital playback device....no need for timecode; but financing and timing made that one disappear. There was also Colortek in the mid 1980's [Cool]
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-06-2007, 02:56 PM:
 
quote: Richard Fowler
There was a person in the USA that had a concept to read the analog track and sync it to a digital playback device....no need for timecode; but financing and timing made that one disappear. There was also Colortek in the mid 1980's
Was this system, by chance, called VISTASONIC, developed by Terry Beard (who a decade later would be involved with DTS) and Paramount and used on "Popeye" (1980) and "Dragonslayer" (1981)? Or how about John Mosley's COMTRAK?

Key passages from a VARIETY article of June 4, 1980:

quote:
A new soundtrack system for motion pictures was offered as a possible international standard by inventor John Mosley, that could have far-reaching effects on the proliferation of stereophonic films and the ability to provide foreign dubbed pix at a lower cost.

The bandwidth of Comtrak fits within the international standard of one-tenth of an inch (Comtrak's width is .038 inch) and lays down alongside an Academy track, providing six tracks, each able to control a separate speaker or sound system. There are four stereo sound tracks and two tracks for technical control.

Bow of Comtrak follows an attempt three yars ago to offer a similar invention, called Colortek, to the industry.

 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-06-2007, 03:12 PM:
 
I believe it was called KaraSync
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-06-2007, 05:19 PM:
 
Colortek was a four channel system and Comtrak its updated cousin with 7 channels. It used a CDD pickup to read and error correct the track. I hear and saw the Colortek demo at a SMPTE convention at the former Century Plaza cinema. I later went up in the booth and saw the install in the Century soundhead. What killed the use was the QC issues that the film labs would have to maintain.....and Dolby was gaining acceptance.
FIAF film archive convention should be in progress at the moment in Tokyo. One of their presentations is "lost" formats, which will include Colortek and Comtrak. Any FIAF / Film-Tech members attending?
 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-07-2007, 09:47 AM:
 
quote: Richard Fowler
Any FIAF / Film-Tech members attending?
Isn't that the organsation that Leo belongs to? I haven't heard from him recently, maybe he's there at the moment, and can report to us wen he gets back.
 
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-07-2007, 01:10 PM:
 
Yes, it was called Karasync... the inventor (John Karamond) lives and works near me, although I haven't seen him in a few years. Really nice guy; too bad his idea didn't take off. Refer to U.S. Patent 4,839,733
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-07-2007, 02:49 PM:
 
Didn't he also invent the soundsphere surround speaker
 
Posted by Sam King (Member # 4029) on 04-08-2007, 04:15 AM:
 
quote: Richard Fowler
There was a person in the USA that had a concept to read the analog track and sync it to a digital playback device....no need for timecode
That actually how 16mm DTS works. Yes I said 16mm DTS. The DTS processor uses the 16mm analog reader as a timecode for the disks. At a theatre I used to work for, we had a film that ran once a day for a week to qualify for Acadamy consideration and it was in 6 channel DTS 16mm.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-08-2007, 05:20 AM:
 
quote: Richard Fowler
Colortek was a four channel system and Comtrak its updated cousin with 7 channels.
That's VARIETY's error not mine. But...would you mind clarifying if what you were referring to was either of the formats I mentioned, or is it that KARASYNC thing that a couple of others have mentioned?

quote: Richard Fowler
FIAF film archive convention should be in progress at the moment in Tokyo. One of their presentations is "lost" formats, which will include Colortek and Comtrak. Any FIAF / Film-Tech members attending?
Well, that sounds like (no pun intended) a lot of fun. Unfortunately, I will not be attending (unless someone wants to start up a "Send Mike To Tokyo" fund).

This reminds me of a thing I put together a few years ago for another publication called "Soundtrack Graveyard" which went something like the quoted list that follows.

(I wonder how many of these will be "remembered" at the film archive convention)

quote:

Cinema Digital Sound
Colortek
Comtrak
Cyclophonic Sound
Fantasound
Feelarama
LC Concept Digital Sound
Magnetic Stereo
Megasound
Perspecta Stereophonic Sound
Sensurround
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (well, not quite [Big Grin] )
Sound 360
Super Spectra Sound
Vistasonic Sound
Vitasound
Quadrophonic Sound
Quintaphonic Sound
Warnerphonic Sound

 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-08-2007, 05:31 AM:
 
16mm DTS did indeed use the analog track BUT (and it is a big but), the analog track had an analog recording of the time code! DTS even makes a buffer amp that cleans up the signal so the player can read it better. I've done this set up a couple of times myself. The analog track has no listenable information though...just what the DTS player can "hear" to make it think it is seeing time code.

Steve
 
Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 04-08-2007, 08:22 AM:
 
Here's another format to be added to the Soundtrack Graveyard:
Panaphonic Sound

It was developed in Norman, Oklahoma, by Dorsett Laboratories. Sound was switched from speaker to speaker by a binary code that was marked into sprocket hole areas, and optically scanned.

In Okmulgee, OK, it was installed in 1953 at the Yale Theatre, and was first used on SALOME, WHERE SHE DANCED, with Yvonne DeCarlo. The Yale's newspaper ad of 10/03/1953 noted that, "Panaphonic sound offers theatre-goers a panorama of sound track reproduction effects which can come from one or more of 10 specially controlled speakers in the theatre."
 
Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 04-08-2007, 10:30 AM:
 
The Kinoton format was called HDFS (High Definition Film System) and used a double CD drive, a timecode track on the print and a silent aperture with 1.5x anamorphic compression.

This format ("high definition" maybe compared to an 1.85 print) was proposed by Kinoton and Isco, and there was a demonstration at the 1990 (?) Photokina fair at Cologne. The footage shown was not shot 1.5x anamorphic, (IIRC it was some aerial footage for THE NEVERENDING STORY) and did not look impressive.

The format was referred to as Iscovision a few times, but as far as I know, nothing was ever shot and/or released. Today, Isco use3s the term Iscovision for their 2x anamorphic camera lenses (maybe identical to ArriScope lenses?)

From Wikipedia:
quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kinoton HDFS (High Definition Film System) was a prototype 35 mm motion picture film format proposed by German projector company Kinoton and developed with the film camera company ARRI and the Swiss company Studer. The format was developed between 1988 and 1990. It proposed removing the optical soundtrack from film prints, and using the SMPTE 80 bit timecode printed onto the film print, combined with two CD-ROM drives to provide a four channel digital soundtrack. The removal of the soundtrack would also allow more of the film area to be used during filming, increasing the quality.

The format was not adopted.
There is a discussion on AMIA-L lead by John Pytlak (from 2001):

AMIA-L - 1.5x anamorphic format
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-08-2007, 08:09 PM:
 
John demonstrated some footage shot in this format (1.5x "mild" anamorphic 1.85) a number of years ago at an SMPTE chapter meeting in New York. It was very impressive, and the elegance and simplicity of the system was immediately apparant. As mentioned, on the shooting end, the ideal would be shooting with the same 1.5x anamorphic as we do with 2.39:1 ar for scope releases or super 35mm could also be used and then the 1.85/1.5x release print extracted from it.

But, the big stumbling block was the unwillingness of the exhibitors to invest in an additional anamorphic at some $2000 per screen. That proved to be something exhibitors were not interested in, even if it meant getting better picture quality on their screens.

Interestingly enough, in spite of exhibition's reluctance to spend money on improvements in image quality, somehow the studios have convinced them to invest some $100,000+ per screen for digital projectors which they seem perfecty willing, even happy to do even though that investment does not give them better image quality. Go figure. My only conclusion is that the studios are drugging exhibitor execs and turning them into zombies, who, when they hear the word "digital," go into a catatonic trance and give out the pin numbers to their corporated bank accounts. [evil]
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-08-2007, 09:09 PM:
 
It DOES boggle the mind, doesn't it? Lewis Black will probably do a routine about this when it settles down. Louis
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-06-2011, 01:55 PM:
 

It has been 1549 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-06-2011, 01:55 PM:
 
Continued from another thread...

What follows is a list of the known Cinema Digital Sound presentations in the United States. This was prepared for an article I had intended to publish last year for the 20th anniversary of digital sound in movie theaters. Note that the data represents the starting point of each engagement. In some cases, the CDS prints at a point in their run were withdrawn and replaced with Dolby prints.

quote: Mike's Research
DICK TRACY (1990, Buena Vista, 70mm)
Los Angeles, CA – AMC CENTURY 14
Los Angeles, CA – GCC BEVERLY CONNECTION 6
Los Angeles, CA – Pacific CREST
New York, NY – Guild EMBASSY 1
New York, NY – Loews 84TH STREET SIX
Newport Beach, CA – Edwards NEWPORT CINEMAS
Santa Ana, CA – AMC MAINPLACE 6

DAYS OF THUNDER (1990, Paramount, 70mm)
Corte Madera, CA – Pacific CINEMA
Lakewood, CA – Pacific LAKEWOOD CENTER
Los Angeles, CA – Mann CHINESE
Los Angeles, CA – Mann NATIONAL

FLATLINERS (1990, Columbia, 35mm)
No known CDS presentations in the United States.

EDWARD SCISSORHANDS (1990, Twentieth Century Fox, 35mm & 70mm)
Dallas, TX – UA PLAZA (70mm)
Los Angeles, CA – GCC AVCO CENTER (35mm)
New York, NY – Cineplex Odeon ZIEGFELD (70mm)
San Francisco, CA – UA CORONET (70mm)

THE DOORS (1991, TriStar, 35mm)
Dallas, TX – UA PLAZA
Emeryville, CA – UA EMERY BAY
La Mesa, CA – Pacific CINEMA GROSSMONT
Lakewood, CA – Pacific REGENCY 8
Los Angeles, CA – UA CORONET
New York, NY – Loews 84TH STREET SIX
New York, NY – UA GEMINI TWIN
Newport Beach, CA – Edwards NEWPORT CINEMAS
Pasadena, CA – Pacific HASTNGS
San Francisco, CA – UA GALAXY
San Rafael, CA – Pacific REGENCY 6

HUDSON HAWK (1991, TriStar, 35mm)
Los Angeles, CA – AMC CENTURY 14
Los Angeles, CA – UA CORONET
New York, NY – UA GEMINI TWIN

TERMINATOR 2: JUDGMENT DAY (1991, TriStar, 35mm & 70mm)
Atlanta, GA – Cineplex Odeon LENOX SQUARE (35mm)
Bethesda, MD – UA BETHESDA (35mm)
Dallas, TX – UA PLAZA (35mm)
Denver, CO – UA CONTINENTAL (70mm)
Emeryville, CA – UA EMERY BAY (35mm)
Fort Worth, TX – UA HULEN (35mm)
La Mesa, CA – Pacific GROSSMONT TROLLEY 8 (35mm)
Lakewood, CA – Pacific REGENCY 8 (35mm)
Los Angeles, CA – AMC CENTURY 14 (70mm)
Los Angeles, CA – Pacific CINERAMA DOME (70mm)
Los Angeles, CA – UA CORONET (70mm)
Marina del Rey, CA – UA CINEMA (35mm)
Miami, FL – UA MOVIES AT THE FALLS (35mm)
New York, NY – Loews 84TH STREET SIX (70mm)
New York, NY – UA GEMINI TWIN (70mm)
New York, NY – UA MOVIES AT SHEEPSHEAD BAY (35mm)
Pasadena, CA – Pacific HASTINGS (35mm)
Princeton, NJ – UA MOVIES AT MARKET FAIR (35mm)
San Diego, CA – UA HORTON PLAZA (35mm)
San Francisco, CA – UA GALAXY (35mm)
San Rafael, CA – Pacific REGENCY 6 (35mm)
Scottsdale, AZ – UA SCOTTSDALE PAVILIONS (35mm)

FOR THE BOYS (1991, Twentieth Century Fox, 35mm)
No known CDS presentations in the United States.

FINAL APPROACH (1991, Trimark, 35mm)
Los Angeles, CA – Pacific CINERAMA DOME
Los Angeles, CA – UA CORONET
New York, NY – UA GEMINI TWIN

UNIVERSAL SOLDIER (1992, TriStar, 35mm)
No known CDS presentations in the United States.
Feel free to discuss if you wish to share memories of attending or projecting any of those or if you have additional information or corrections.
 
Posted by Michael Barry (Member # 237) on 07-07-2011, 07:48 AM:
 
I wish I could share the time I saw 'Final Approach' in CDS at the Cinerama Dome, but alas I can't: I wasn't there.

But how I wish I was - that is one of my favourite movies, and it would have been *awesome* to see it there.

I'm still waiting for a DVD or Blu Ray of that movie to be released.
 
Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 07-09-2011, 12:38 PM:
 
I'll need to find someone to verify this, but I'm pretty sure the Cinemark 12 at Mill Run in Columbus, OH showed DICK TRACY in CDS. At the time, this theatre was the "showcase" multiplex in the Columbus area. Now it's a Movie Tavern.
 
Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 07-09-2011, 01:14 PM:
 
I'll have to confirm this at the library, but I don't think DICK TRACY played Mill Run in CDS. There was no 70mm equipment at Mill Run. They had the first DTS system in town for JURASSIC PARK. DICK TRACY ran in 70mm at Dublin Village, the only 70mm film to run there.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-10-2011, 12:26 PM:
 
Cinemark's flagship theater at the time of CDS was Vista Ridge 12, of which I was the projectionist there. I can assure you that if any Cinemark would have had CDS, that it would have been Vista Ridge. We did not have 70mm capability, but they certainly weren't afraid to bring in new equipment and perform upgrades.

Cinemark was very good about building THX auditoriums back in the day, so that is probably what you are confusing it with.
 
Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-10-2011, 04:11 PM:
 
FWIW...I think the Cinemark circuit's first installation of a digital sound format, in this case Dolby Digital, was in 1992 at their Hollywood USA complex in Garland, TX (Dallas market).
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-10-2011, 05:37 PM:
 
One thing that pissed me off about that installation: The Fugitive, a movie with some Dolby Digital prints merely played in optical Dolby SR there. I kind of expected Dolby Digital and only got Dolby SR.

One Dolby Digital film I did see there: The Program and that was before Disney edited out the stupid stunt with the students laying on the street letting cars pass by them. Some real life students were killed trying to re-create the trick.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-10-2011, 10:24 PM:
 
quote: Michael Coate
FWIW...I think the Cinemark circuit's first installation of a digital sound format, in this case Dolby Digital, was in 1992 at their Hollywood USA complex in Garland, TX (Dallas market).
Let me correct that for you...

FWIW...I think the Cinemark circuit's first permanent installation of a digital sound format, in this case Dolby Digital, was in 1992 at their Hollywood USA complex in Garland, TX (Dallas market).

Yes, and it went into #4 as I opened that building. That was also the first time Cinemark put in a large lamp in their CFS consoles (it was either 4000 or 4500 watt). The tech that setup the lamphouses didn't align the lamps properly and even though we had junk test prints, he threaded our brand new SRD print of Aladdin and Leap of Faith and ran them early one morning and burned a hole through every single frame. To add insult to injury, the tech was in the auditorium watching the movie talking about how wonderful it sounded. Well first, it was out of sync, second the room had not yet been tuned. Whatever. [Roll Eyes]

But back to the point, Vista Ridge installed SRD for a day to run an early screening of Pure Country in #8 for that redneck singer whatever-his-name-was.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-10-2011, 10:45 PM:
 
quote: Brad Miller
Vista Ridge installed SRD for a day to run an early screening of Pure Country in #8 for that redneck singer whatever-his-name-was.
Well golly, that would be George Strait. I'm kind of surprised the studio didn't get the screening booked at Northpark 1-2.

I watched Jurassic Park several times during the summer of 1993, most at GCC Northpark 1-2. But I did give it a try at the Vista Ridge Mall theater (in THX-DTS if I remember correctly). The theater wasn't far from The Colony (I was staying with an aunt and uncle there while working a temp job in Addison). The sound was decent, but not nearly as impressive as how it sounded on the Northpark #1 screen. JP even sounded pretty damned good on the #2 non-THX screen.
 
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-11-2011, 01:35 PM:
 
The only 70mm equipment Cinemark had were in theaters they acquired, like the former UA Skillman 6, as I recall.
 




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