Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: KINOTON vs CINEMECCANICA

This is topic KINOTON vs CINEMECCANICA in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Sally Burgess (Member # 1493) on 08-04-2003, 01:50 AM:

Is it just me or do the Kinoton FP30 projectors give a better, steadier picture? I work with Vic5 projectors and from what I have seen the Kinotons seem a better bet for a clearer image. What does everyone else think...

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-04-2003, 01:59 AM:

Uh, there's a reason Cinemecccannniiicccaaa earned the name Shakeuhmechanica.

Of course, the newer V5 gates give a steadier picture than the older style... and with the older style, as long as you frame the mechanism all the way up (so that the intermittent sprocket is closest to the aperture) they project a decent picture. That said, they don't come close to a Kinoton.

Now I wait for Antonio to correct my spelling. [Smile]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-04-2003, 10:03 AM:

If you compare a Vic 5 with an FP, both in optimum condition, I think few would argue that the FP will give a much steadier picture, is kinder to prints and more tolerant of worn or shrunken stock (an important point if you're showing arthouse or rep product on a regular basis).

The Vic 5's strong point is ease of maintenance. All the routine maintenance jobs and just about any emergency repair to a Vic can be done with a set of Allen keys and some common sense, and (in the UK at least) spare parts are a lot cheaper, too. That is not the case on a Kinoton at all: a lot of routine jobs are very complicated, require a lot of skill and patience and the consequences of getting even a small detail wrong can be very serious.

So IMHO it boils down to what your priority is: about the best mechanical performance available from any 35mm projector on the market, or simple and cheap maintenance. For example, if I'm in a major city centre, show lots of arthouse and have a service company readily available, I'd install Kinoton. If I'm in a 20-screen multiplex in the middle of nowhere, only ever show new or nearly new prints and need to be able to fix a projector quickly and easily if it goes wrong, I'd install Cinemeccanica.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-04-2003, 02:49 PM:

[Confused]

What do you mean? The Kinotons are the simplest projectors of all to maintain. There is so little to maintain because they have so few parts on them.
Those parts that are still left on the projector head are almost all very solid and sturdy, and the design is very structured and logical.

Maybe you only know the more complex studio machines.
For a multiplex, an FP30D or E without the extra options is a very easy to handle and maintain projector. The pressure skate, gate bands and guide rollers can be cleaned and changed in seconds. You can take any of the plastic rollers off and wash them in water. Some of the rollers need to be lubricated a little bit, most are self-lubricating and need only a little cleaning.
Oilchanges and repair work inside the projector is a joy because you just have to swing the door open and have easy and confortable access to all the parts inside.
The lamphouse is also well structured. No confusion and inaccessible parts here either. The igniter components sit on an open board waiting to be visually inspected and changed piece by piece in case of failure.

I have worked with dozens and dozens of Kinoton projectors of all types and configurations, in studio, festival and multiplex environments - I would agree that the studio projectors are very complicated and only for the trained hand, but the basic configurations are exactly the right tool for the daily "grind".

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-04-2003, 09:36 PM:

the vic 5 with the curved gate produces a excellent picture
I really find both a well built robust machine

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 08-05-2003, 04:37 AM:

Sally, Kinoton wins the race,rock steady picture, easy to maintain and best value for money and I find them ideal for multiplex operation. More so the FP50D as its designed for multiplex operations,also find Kinoton platters the best there is.
Stephen [Wink]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-05-2003, 06:40 AM:

Try replacing an intermittent sprocket. Vic 5 = Allen key, replacement sprocket, 5 minutes. Kinoton = strip entire gate assembly. Try correcting shutter ghosting. Vic 5 = remove lamphouse chimney, shutter cover, loosen shutter and adjust. Kinoton = remove chains, toothed pulleys and goodness knows what else just to get at it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-05-2003, 07:26 AM:

On the "E" Kinotons...just an allen key with three screws and the shutter can be adjusted...heck they even have a status LED so you can set the thing.

I've never had to align a Kinoton D or earlier shutter...never drifted. Now with limited exposure to Cinemeccanica I've had shutter boxes go out. It is kinda like the Century versus Simplex arguement in the US...Sure the Century is far easier to work on (only need a straigt blade screw driver for most operations!) but the trouble is, you are always having to work on them.

Steve

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 08-05-2003, 08:08 AM:

As my FP30D is only about one month old, i have not been doing anything but changing oil, but as the projector replaced a Vic 9, i do have room in my memory for noting the difference - You know "See the Difference", as they say in Münich. Those two projectors are not comparable at all. I'm even that impressed, that I dare to claim, I have a better picture on the FP30 than on the DP70's next door. As some of You may remember, I cryed much about space and user comfort, but after the 3-lens carousel went out and 4 single lens holders in, I just love the new machine. And if the sprockets are going on for as long as they do on the dp70, I really can't see any reason to mention that replacement job, Leo. The whole Cinemec projector will be worn out before You need a new sprocket for the Kinoton !

Per

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-05-2003, 10:16 AM:

quote:
the vic 5 with the curved gate produces a excellent picture
I really find both a well built robust machine

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-05-2003, 12:29 PM:

Exactly, what are you saying, Tim? [Wink]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-05-2003, 03:42 PM:

Leo, these are not everyday maintenance operations. Also, you have to perform these very rarely, as these parts get out of alignment or wear out also very rarely.
And if you have to time the shutter, you don`t have to take half of the projector head apart. You just losen the screws which hold the shutter to the shaft and turn it a little bit in the desired direction, that`s it.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-05-2003, 04:19 PM:

quote:
You just losen the screws which hold the shutter to the shaft...

...using your 3ft long fingers which can withstand white-hot heat...

quote:
...and turn it a little bit in the desired direction, that`s it.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-06-2003, 08:09 AM:

3 ft long fingers? You might want to check if you have the right type of machine. Maybe someone swapped the manufacturer`s nameplates.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2003, 09:20 PM:

I love the title of this thread......
Man, its like comparing a 2003 Lamborghini to an old rusty Fiat!!
Mark

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 08-16-2003, 05:51 AM:

Why not say a 45 year old Rolls with a new Fiat - It sounds more honest, but the result will be the same... [Big Grin]

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-16-2003, 07:24 AM:

Uhm...

I'm actually working with 11 Vic5 with standard gate. I worked before with 16 Vic5 with curved gate. I have to say that curved gate offers better image but it is a bit delicated, you have to manage it kindly and adjust it regularly.

I made some tests with standard gate and I found no differences projecting with the maltese sprocket all way up and all way down... Are you sure?

And, please, stop taking Italian's thing as negative examples!!!! [Wink]

Surely Cinemeccanica's are not precise mechanisms... [Frown]

Bye!!
Antonio

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-16-2003, 11:15 AM:

Cinemecanica is a precision machine And we have lots of vic 5's that give few problems as long as one changes the belts and makes sure the shutter gear box has lubricant in it (that was the reel issue with the old ones the greese flew away from the 2 plastic gears and never ran back in just stayed compacted around the outer edge of the box but that is a moot point with the new box
The open solar cell did give problems but that is not there anymore with a reverse scan reader
All in all they are a good servicable machine that chuggs along

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 08-17-2003, 04:00 AM:

This is a very interesting post, to say the least. Let me give my perspective as an equipment rebuilder. First of all, theIntermittent is the heart of the projector. A poorly designed intermittent can only, in the long run reslult in a less than reliable or quality image. of course film gate design must also be taken into account. I have rebuilt about 20-30 5-V intermittents and I must say that no other itermittent is as big a pain in the ass to rebuild! This is not to say that I can't make one run great. I will say this, however, cinemeccanica should talk to the people from Lavezzi and learn how to make a quality star and cam, at half the price! The common ground with the Kinotone and V-5 are the eccentric cam pin, this makes adjusting these movements a delicate operation. The american made machines do not have this, they have a fixed pin. comapring the two I would say the kinotone is a far better machine. I would have to say that in america there are far more simplex machines in service than anything else, yet I rebuild less of thesethan the Century machines, I also find myself fixing a lot of Christie intermittents, yet they have not been making projectors for a very long time, the bearings are just terrible. The point of all this....buy a simplex, they are still by far the most reliable machine and I fix everything so I know what I'm talking about!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-17-2003, 11:26 AM:

I tend to disagree about the construction of european movements being inferior to American ones. They are designed to a tighter tollerance because they typically have much larger cam and star wheels. And it is very rare that I ever get a european movment in for repair except through stupidity (sticking a screwdriver inot it while running) (or no oil for exceptionally long periods((in fact i have seen many of the european movements run dry for long periods of time with out a hicup))

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 08-17-2003, 12:35 PM:

Using oversized parts doesn't require tighter tolerances, it allows for a larger margin of error. Who's doing the more-accurate work? Someone who can make a small cam and star work, or the one who has to use oversized?

That speaks volumes about craftsmanship.

Cinemeccanica, with their single-bearing movement and soft metal starwheel out in the open, are prone to being bent. Either from a misthread, or someone's elbow. I've serviced hundreds, if not thousands, of these machines and I know it is a flawed design. And yes, Brenkerts had single-bearing movements, too, but they were considerably more heavy-duty in design and manufacture, and they were in a protective enclosure. They also didn't extend far out from the movement like Cinemeccanicas do.

Randy is right.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-17-2003, 01:08 PM:

I wonder about that at one time Odeon and Famous players used vic5 and vic8 exclusivley and I can only barely remember a Vic 8 movement being replaced and I can only think of 2 vic 5's but I rememebr lots of century movements getting swapped out

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-17-2003, 01:15 PM:

Ya know, I can't think of a single Kinoton intermittent we've had go down with projectors dating back to the '60s. The same can not be said about Cinemeccanica and we've never sold a one.

The Cinemccanica is a far inferior machine, from the sprockets on out. It does have redeaming qualities but isn't a precise machine and its stability leaves something to be desired.

As to the Simplex...if you keep oil in the machine, change it semi-regularly (every 6-12 months) it NEVER fails, just like the rest of the Simplex. Century intermittents, despite being much beefier require far more rebuilds than Simplex simply due to the lubrication system, in my opinon...if kept properly lubricated, the Century should bury most others in the intermittent department.

But back to the topic at hand...A Cinemeccanica V-5 versus a Kinoton FP-30D (or other "D" series 35mm projector...they are all the same mechanism)...it isn't a close call...only a fool would take the Cinemeccanica based on projection performance, maintainence. With the Kinoton, you have one oil tube, a chain and a gear. The chain needs to be near oil about once a year, likewise with the gear (drives the shutter) should be lubed 6-months to a year...there is very little load on it...just the shutter. The intermittent is a drain and fill via the tube. Complete operation is about 2-5 minutes and costs just a few bucks for the oil...no messy belts.

Steve

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 08-17-2003, 02:58 PM:

Also, it takes only seconds literally to change gate bands, lateral guide rollers or pressure shoe.
And of course, the gate bands never snap in the middle of the show.

Please note it is spelled Kinoton, not Kiniton or Kinetone.
The name means "cinema sound" because the company did sound services before taking over Philips` projector series.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-17-2003, 05:56 PM:

Michael,

Kinoton, Kiniton, Cinemaccanica... Where are we living?? [Big Grin]

Bye!
A

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 09-26-2003, 03:23 PM:

I just HAVE to say this. One thing that´s absolutely
first class are the original belts in the Victoria 5.
I recently changed the belts that was delivered with
the machines - 10 years ago!!! Or roughly 10.000 hours.
And they were hardly worn.

I know Kinoton are higher quality, but Cinemeccanica
deserves at least SOME points? The basement-reader for
DolbyDigital could get some points, too. It has never
failed me.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-26-2003, 03:59 PM:

quote:
Man, its like comparing a 2003 Lamborghini to an old rusty Fiat!!

As the not-so-proud owner of a 1992 Fiat Tempra which I'm about to get rid of and heave a sigh of relief (the f-----g thing has just broken down once too often, with apologies to Alastair Campbell), I'm not sure whether or not to take that as a compliment! [Smile]

The bottom line to me was that if a Vic went wrong the consequences might be a pain in the bum, but I knew I could fix the thing. I'd say that my technical skills were (and hopefully still are) good enough for all routine maintenance jobs and most first-line repairs, but the bottom line is that I'm not a trained engineer. With the FP-20s in one of my cinema workplaces, there were two or three breakdowns in which I knew that in trying to fix them, I was seriously out of my depth. One of those attempted repairs resulted in my making quite an expensive mistake (buggering an intermittent unit, basically).

I've never, ever felt at risk like that when working on a Cinemec and would suggest that if a site is under the day to day management of people who do not have intimate knowledge of the things, then their quirks might not be a price worth paying for the considerably better picture that they can undoubtedly deliver. That having been said, the university at which I now work is about to equip one of its lecture theatres with FPs - but at least I know what I can safely touch and what I can't.

I think what I'm trying to say is that Vic 5s are extremely tolerant of projectionists who need to keep them going without the level of technical support/backup you need in an ideal world. And that's something positive...

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-26-2003, 04:14 PM:

OK I've worked extensivly on both projectors so I know what I'm talking about.

The Vic 5 is a very capable projector. Everything is easy to replace or repair. If you look after it, as with any mechanical device, it give exceptional service.

The FP series is a very well established projector series. Simple in many ways, complex is sooo many ways. Changing an intermittant sprocket is quite involved compared to a Vic5/8.

Changing the framing bush is a very involved process and can easily result in tears! Its simplicity is arrived at by its design complexity and compactness.

The Vic 5 is a 'Belt and Braces' design and benifits from that in so many ways, it is very forgiving and tollerent.

The newer FP series is, in my opinion, overly reliant of electronics and is overdesigned. I recently worked on 15 FP40's with ASK1 automation and found the equipment to be quite stable but had many propblems due to over design.

If I was parting with the cash I'd tend to go for a more robust and simpler design... the Vic 5 would win hands down. The FP series may well give an overall steadier picture but the Vic is easier to maintain in every respect.

That's my opinon based on a lot of experience and I offer it in that respect only. An opinion.... NOT Gospel!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-26-2003, 05:57 PM:

I dunno...With a bunch of FP-20s in service and now a few of the D series (I'm leaving the E series out though that is what we have mostly been installing as of late)...the FP series is just so much better than my Vic 5 enounters.

I think this arguement takes on a Simplex versus Century on this side of the pond....

The Century is quite capable and beloved by many...it is easy to work on and needs the most basic of tools.

The Simplex, if maintained with good oil and such will out last most anything but if you are heavy handed, you can bugger it up and blaim the machine. However, if properly maintained (keep the oil fresh and the strainer cleaned) it will have far fewer service calls than the Century.

The gears in the Century are easy to change but you WILL have to change them (except for the sprocket gears...they normally survive a good long time)...the shutter and main drive gears wear relatively fast.

Back to the two machines under discussion...The current FP-30D or PK-60D are quite simple in both electronics and mechanics...I can't see where the Vic 5 with its tight shutter box spacing and belt drive can hold a candle to them.

We have a set of PK-60Ds in service that now years later are still running along with ZERO service calls....no belts and only one change in skates (they are Film-Guarders so the skakes even last a long time).

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-28-2003, 11:06 AM:

OK, in all comparison fairness how about a Morris Minor Vs. a Shelby Mustang Cobra???
Mark