Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Freaky Friday- short reel

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 08-05-2003, 04:58 PM:

Joseph Pandolfi wrote in Feature Info and Trailer Attachments:

"Reel 5 is a very short one, about 4 minutes."

And how! Just for fun, I ran it through my old Neumade Film Measuring Machine, and it clocked through at 414 feet.

Reel to reel projectionists will find room on reel #4 if they want to avoid the quick changeover. On the other hand, folks who want to use up their carbon shorts have a great opportunity. [thumbsup]

However, upon inspection I found that the last cue is a real bear to see. [Eek!]

This about the shortest reel on a feature that I've seen. Does anyone recall a shorter reel?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-05-2003, 06:00 PM:

Why in the heck would they do that when there is room on an adjacent reel?

This might confuse some harried projectionist somewhere who sees that short reel and thinks it's the end of the movie.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-05-2003, 06:07 PM:

Very short reels that are not the final (or sometimes first) reel usually means some major editing was done after the other reels were locked and it was too late to rebalance the reel changes without difficulty. I had one today that was 93 minutes spread over 7 reels. This might get rearranged before release (there's more than a month to go) but then again maybe not.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-05-2003, 06:49 PM:

I may be mistaken but doesn't the film get initially edited down from a 1000 foot rolls then after editing is finished the negatives are cut and assembled into 2000 or less rolls for making release prints.

Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 08-05-2003, 07:06 PM:

With all of the features I have been involved with, the 2000 foot reel breaks were set as early as possible. Sometimes a scene moves to keep things even as the cut changes, but by and large its fixed early. Certainly the reels are locked well before it gets to the neg cutter.

One show that I am working on now is a 6 reeler, with two being almost full, and the other four all being between 12 and 15 minutes. It certainly would have fit in 5 reels, but they decided early on in the cut it was going to be 6 so that's the way it is.

A 4 minute reel in the middle certainly sounds suspicious.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 08-06-2003, 01:50 AM:

Just the opposite, I remember building "The Wall" which was 5 reels filled to the brim. One of the reels had the film actually flush with the edges of the flanges!! It wasn't a "fill-n-hack" job, either because the cue dots were where they should be. You'd think they'd spread it out a little more to protect the film. [Confused]

=TMP=

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-06-2003, 07:32 AM:

I agree. (Over)filling a shipping reel to the point that the film winds beyond the flanges is almost certain to cause shipping damage. Even when secured with proper stiff cardboard bands, the film should not be wound beyond about 1/2-inch below the reel diameter.

Posted by Jonathan Ralston (Member # 1775) on 08-09-2003, 01:01 AM:

Sony did a great job with Bad Boys II. Eight reels almost perfectly filled to 1/2 inch below the flange. Makes tearing down pretty easy

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-09-2003, 03:58 AM:

Just ran GUYS AND DOLLS -- 10 reels, all short. Musicals tend to have short reels because savvy editors don't want to make a reel change in the middle of a song. MY FAIR LADY, if I recall, is 14 reels. But as newer generations mostly familiar with platters take over from the guys & dolls who only knew change-over operation, they may not see the necessity for finding "clean" change-over points as they will be thinking platters -- always a perfect change-over....except of course after a bunch of frames get hacked away by sloppy buildups and breakdowns. And mind you, this is not a slam at platters, but the doofuses who can't break a splice except by chopping off two frames. Therefore change-over guys using long-play reels are not excused by any means.

Frank

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-09-2003, 07:37 AM:

Frank,

Actually, you have to consider for older musicals (pre 1980s mostly) that they balanced the reels based on only acetate stock but 4-track magnetic striping. So, even if you have an acetate print, if it isn't striped, it won't fill the reel.

Steve

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-11-2003, 04:50 AM:

Right, Steve, and add to that, this print (G&D) was poly which is thinner and so the reels are even less full (by volume, not length)!

Frank

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 08-11-2003, 06:53 AM:

Clean areas for changeover?

Both prints in 70mm of "Oklahoma" we have screened over the years contained a changeover in the middle of a dance number. The dancers move upstage, BAM, they come back downstage to the front and all of this at 30fps.

There is a "REEL" challenge for you.

KEN

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-11-2003, 10:22 AM:

Try Sound of Music has a changeover mid note in the trouble with maria

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 08-11-2003, 03:33 PM:

Right on! "The Sound of Music" in 70mm

How about the middle of "If I Were A Rich Man" in Fiddler on the Roof? Also in 70mm

I believe there is a change in the middle of "Dirty" in "Paint Your Wagon" also 70mm.

KEN

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-12-2003, 01:55 PM:

How bout CAMELOT -- end of R1 -- Richard Harris is talk-singing to Vanessa Redgrave and explains that in autumn "the leaves are whisked away at night....of course." Change-Over R2 - Regrave " Of course."

A fie on the guys who run down to low countdown numbers...they loose Vanessa's "Of course."

Frank

Posted by Robin Dorking (Member # 460) on 08-13-2003, 01:10 PM:

Short reels in film reminds me of the reissue of Gone With The Wind many years ago. One of the reels was very short. Barely 5 minutes long. Running it on standard 70 mm reels on changeovers, it would have not really given you time to re lace the next reel. Good thing the reel after the offending one had space, so it got doubled up.

Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 08-13-2003, 06:44 PM:

Thanks John T. for bringing up my post on the "Feature" section. When I first built it for the special sneek preview on 7/25/03 I was ready to call Technicolor due to the "mini" reel 5. After checking for end cues and then screening the finished print for continuity, it looked OK. By the way 414 feet is just over 4-1/2 minutes, which leave very little time if I was in a changeover house.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 08-14-2003, 01:01 AM:

Don't forget the prints of Branaugh's 'Hamlet', which shipped on TWENTY reels, many of them about 5-7 minutes running time. The print could have EASILY fit on 12-13 reels.

-Aaron

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-17-2003, 09:42 PM:

Gottcha beat, Aaron -- At 9.5 hours, SHOAH clocked in at 23 reels -- NONE of them short! Reels laying all over the booth. It was the one time that change-over was no fun. Naturally it was a mint archive print that they didn't want spliced. I am talking NO FUN. We ran the full 9 1/2 hrs with a break for dinner for two days and then the rest of the engagement it was split, running one half of it on one day and the other the next. I can't imagine what running that thing for a longer engagement would have been like.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-18-2003, 12:26 AM:

HIGH SOCIETY also has a reel change mid song...in Who Wants To Be A Millionaire.