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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-14-2003, 10:58 AM:
 
I have searched the database and came up with a thousand references to Film-Guard; popular product, but not easy to find what I am looking for....

I had a 10 reel feature in our archives that had to go out "yesterday" for a special screening; when I opened the can I found a print that was very dirty and scratchy. I wanted to Film-Guard it before I shipped it out, but only had time to treat it by hand, not enough to run it through the regular Kelmar dry media cleaner on the projector. I do have a Neumade cleaning unit on the rewind table which I used instead on the Kelmar. I rewound it at a pretty good clip, coating the film with cleaner.

Question is, what is the end result on the film after cleaning with Film-Guard? Should the film wind up wet with a slick of the cleaner on it or should any remaining slick that is wet to the fingers be wiped off? Or do you leave it wet and let it disapate on its own? In other words, what is the film surface conditon -- slick with a coating or dry after the Film-Guard is soaked into the film and then buffed so it is no longer wet to the touch?

I left the film pretty wet. Will that show up blotchy on the screen? If so, should I tell the projectionist that he should pass the film through a clean cloth and wipe any excess off? The instructions mention that some blotchness will occur after the initial application, but then disappear after some runs. Is this a function of time (after the cleaner soaks in) or of evaporation (being exposed to the air during projection)? How do I hasten it. Since they will only be showing the film for a single prep preview before the actual audience screenings, there may not be time for the blotchiness to disapate -- what to tell them to do?

Frank
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-14-2003, 01:43 PM:
 
Hey, Frank!
From a user's perspective:
The film IS wet after you apply the stuff, which appears to be the whole point. It doesn't dissapate on its own for some time.

In our experience, the blotchiness that you get on first application is worse if you apply it with a cleaner as it's entering the projector. Running it through a cleaner on the bench, then loading it on the platter seems to lessen the effect. As the instructions say, subsequent passes are much less noticeable. By the 2nd pass or so, you won't see it at all, though the visual benefits are obvious by that time.

This stuff is something I wish we'd discovered much sooner. At this point, I wouldn't be without it.

Thanks to Film Guard, I've tossed all my WD40 cans away! (just kidding, Brad! )
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-14-2003, 02:40 PM:
 
The streaking goes away merely after winding the film onto itself, such as onto the takeup platter or onto a reel. Bench cleaning between rewinds by definition will clear the streaks from being projected (blotches is the wrong word, unless you are seriously oversaturating the film). The film will stay wet for some time to provide the benefit of hiding scratches.

One pass will only lubricate. One pass does not clean. It is the second pass that starts pulling dirt off of the film. Subsequent passes pull off more and more dirt. However cleaning on the bench requires some thought to the process. It only takes 1 ounce to clean a feature film properly, and the "less is more" theory should be taken into account here. Also bear in mind that for the ideal results the pads on a media cleaning machine should only be soaked once a week. Many people cleaning on rewinds make that mistake and keep rewetting the cloth every time they rewind the print. If you oversaturate the print, you are actually preventing the FG from performing at it's peak level. Basically when cleaning on the bench just keep in mind how much of the solution and such would be used if you had a Kelmar cleaner mounted between rewinds.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-14-2003, 02:57 PM:
 
Frank, Brad,

First I think that FG is a great product. But I had chance to apply it by hand with very poor results. If you put so much you can see "blotches" on the screen, if you try to put less you made the print "streaky".

More, if the theater that will receive the print is no used to filmguard, I believe that they'll experience problems since the gate pressure has to be set higher with FG (at least it was so when I tried FG on my Vic5).

Bye
A
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-14-2003, 04:12 PM:
 
Antonio, you are overdoing it. Less IS more. Please read the instructions that came with your kit thouroughly.

No more than 1 ounce per feature. If you are using more, you are overdoing it.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 08-14-2003, 05:10 PM:
 
Brad,

I now. What I'm saying is that it is very difficult to apply FG by hands without causing a mess... I can believe that with kelmar or similar product FG is almost magic... But by hands it is very very difficult.

I tried a bottle of FG two years ago when I worked at one screen cinema. Then the bottle opened by itself in my car and I was the first men in the world with a Filmguarded Car...

Now I have three bottle of FG at Warner Village Cinemas but we use it to clean little piece of first movie (when you remove other's cinemas cue for example). I now that it is a very reductive use but my management don't want to buy me a kelmar.

Bye
A
 

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Posted by Mitchell Cope (Member # 32) on 08-15-2003, 12:57 PM:
 
When the media pads changed (they used to be blue, now they're white and much longer), I noticed that the amount of Film-Guard absorbed to cause complete saturation also increased. How much of the media pad am I using? One roll. I take one media pad roll to make two rolls to run on my Christie (Kelmar) cleaner. (I must have the low gearing because this method gives me a safe 3 hours of projection time.) To saturate those two "half rolls", I found that they use 1.5 ounces of Film-Guard, total. Recently I tried to apply only 1 oz. on my first showing and I got an unexpected result. The streaks were outlined in black! Since this was my first showing on what was not a new print, I assumed the black streaks were actually from a lab mistake. On the second showing, the streaks were gone (thankfully). I'm going to assume the black was dirt and that if I had used fully saturated media pads on the first showing, I would have only seen the normally clear Film-Guard streaks. Anybody else have this experience?

My other question is, how do theaters, that use Film-Guard week-after-week, allow for new applications of Film-Guard to be made. The instructions allow that the first showing should be an internal preview that will have the initial clear streaking. A week later when a new application of Film-Guard is made, won't that show be unacceptable to a paying audience?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2003, 01:17 PM:
 
Once FG is on the print, the streaks are barely noticeable on a reapplication. I think you would have seen streaks outlined in black regardless on your other print. Sounds to me like the print was pretty dirty.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-26-2003, 07:39 AM:
 
Ok, same topic heading, different question.

I Film-Guarded an old 16mm B&W acetate print, 2 reels, and shipped it out to an other theatre. The projectionist who got it sent an email back saying that one reel ran so well he was "astonished" at how good it looked and how quietly it ran through the projector. The second reel, however had some sticky substance visible when looking at the side of the reel. I thought perhaps it could be a bit of extra Film-Guard that accumulated were I adjusted the feed supply on the Neumade Cleaner unit (off projector cleaning). I said it might be a bit wet to the touch so just use a clean cotton cloth and wipe it off. He said, no, it wasn't the same coating that was on the rest of the print, but a really sticky. gooy substance. He said it was where it looked like there had been some PerFix treatment of the sprocket holes.

There was Perfix work done by the original owner of the print and it was obviously done professionally because you could see it was applied perfectly - almost looked like it was part of the physical print. Now Film-Guard has never harmed any splicing tape, no matter what type, on any of the prints that I have used it on and I assumed that there would be no problem with Perfix tape.

Has there ever been any reports of FG desolving the Perfix tape or its adhesive, enough to make it ooz out of the edge of the print roll? Seems unlikely and I am wondering if this may be something else and the FG/Perfix combination is just a coincidence and I am jumping to conclusions.

Luckily the projectionist at was smart enough not to run the second reel and ask questions first. Since I am concerned about any sticky goo on the print, I had him FedEx it back and I will inspect it myself; luckily there is enough time before their engagment. I'll report back my findings. If it is Perfix or some other sprocket hole repair material that has been disolved by FG, it will be important to know. Then, on the other hand, something totally foreign may have come in contact with the print -- like someone's icecream cone from concessions.

To be continued.....

Frank
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 08-26-2003, 12:29 PM:
 
I've never had any problems with FilmGaurd and splices/repaired sprockets.

My guess is that the repaired sections of the print probably had some old adhesive that had ooozed out to the edge and dried up years ago. The FilmGuarding probably just softened it up. I'd give the film another pass through FilmGuard, to see if that gack will come off.

Danny
 

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Posted by Sam Hunter (Member # 1119) on 08-26-2003, 02:25 PM:
 
To qoute a popular C+W star "I like it, I love it ,I need some more of it"
The stuff is so good we ought to rename it WD-FG
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 08-26-2003, 03:54 PM:
 
Frank, I recall reading or hearing something to the effect that Perfix didn't adhere to the print as well as, say, good splicing tape.
 

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Posted by Michael Trotochaud (Member # 1513) on 08-29-2003, 10:47 PM:
 
From what I've read here, I want to check something. If I am only going to show a print once, is it best to use FilmGuard on it between a set of rewinds rather than on it's way into the projector?

Here is my logic on this: A first time showing with an application of FilmGuard as the film enters the machine will show some streaking, however using FilmGuard between rewinds and allowing the film to wind on itself will eliminate the streaking of a future showing.

I understand that if you are going to show a film repeatedly it is probably best to use FilmGuard with each showing, but with a single viewing, you want the picture to be as good as possible.

Is my logic correct or am I missing something?

Mike
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-29-2003, 10:58 PM:
 
Yes, in your one time situation between rewinds, but wind it twice. The first pass will only lubricate the film. Starting with the second pass, it will start cleaning.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-30-2003, 12:51 PM:
 
Oh, here's the results. Got the 16mm print back and yes, indeedy, the PerFix material was completely desolved and turned to a gooey substance. Now to be fair, I don't know if the repair material was indeed PerFix; the print lived at some point overseas, so whatever was used to repair nicked sprockets could have been some other brand.

The goo seems to come off completely with Ecco 1500 or 111-Tri. Last night I took some 35mm white Perfix and coated it with FG, wanting to see if it will do to known Perfix what it did to the stuff on the print. My guess is that it won't do anything to the real perfix and the stuff on the print is something else; will let you know in a day or two.

Frank

BTW, if that projectionist had run that mess through the projector, it would have been quite a disaster, for the machine as well as the print.
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 09-01-2003, 02:06 AM:
 
I've seen two different types of perf repair tapes on prints, one is like paper & seems more fragile.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-01-2003, 02:29 AM:
 
I have repeatedly found that if you apply FG manually and in the thickness needed to effectively 'fill in' base scratches and lubricate a shrunk and/or buckled print to help it through a projector or telecine mechanism, this will eventually dissolve tape joins. I would replace all tape joins with cement on such an element if it is going to be used for regular projection.
 

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Posted by Jeff Klump (Member # 1870) on 09-01-2003, 03:50 AM:
 
I'm a giant fan of FG. The other projectionists I work with think I abuse it. I don't think you can ever find enough uses for it. Here is a question for all of you out there, do you know the best way to clean a print after over 3 months of use? I have two prints right now in fact (Nemo and Italian Job) that need cleaned up bad. I've run them through our dry media Kelmar cleaners at least three times a piece and still nothing. Even after film guard applications. At this point is the print just going to remain semi-dirty? The reason I'm asking is because I've never had a print longer than 4 months. Also on another note; does anyone practice coating prints with FG their first run to ensure quality throughout their life? I was thinking of starting this if it works.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-01-2003, 09:19 AM:
 
The best way to treat a film is starting with the first show and then every show thereafter.

That is, soak the pads with FG...treat the film on the first show...reuse the pads for an entire week on that film, every show. The next week, repeat the process (kinda like it says in the instructions)...not only will the print not age...you will find that your digital systems start working BETTER as you continue to use it. Also, focus stability is improved and the film becomes more impervious to heat related damages.

Steve
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2003, 03:40 PM:
 
Jeff, 3 times on an old dirty print may not be enough. Also, did you use freshly saturated pads on all 3 of those runs? The key here is to remember that on the pass with fresh media and FG, you are NOT cleaning the film. You are only coating and lubricating. It is the subsequent passes through those same pads (not resaturated) that starts pulling off the dirt.

Fire up your test again, but this time leave the cleaner on that print and rewind and reuse those same pads every show for a solid week. You will see a dramatic difference 7 days from now. Just remember, don't keep reapplying FG to the pads. It is most effective in small quantities. More is not better.

On brand new prints Steve summed it up very well. Even if you do nothing else for the life of the print, I would recommend running fresh media pads saturated in FG on your virgin screening. Then keep those same pads (not resoaked) on that brand new print for at least a few more runs before you take it off. The idea here is to get all of the shipping dirt off of the print before it has a chance to collect and scratch. Other benefits here are cutting the static to prevent wraps as well as to stop print shedding.
 

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Posted by Benjamin J. Kepner (Member # 1241) on 09-01-2003, 04:16 PM:
 
So even if the pads are getting severely dirty you shouldn't change them daily (say 4-5 shows/day). I only say this because I have a print of Tombraider II that had such a problem with shedding that I was having to take the CO2 canister to the projector every show and still having to spend about 10 mins cleaning it. It took me about 2 weeks to get this film clean and for the first few days I was changing pads every day. The film is much cleaner now, but would this process taken less time say if I had left the pads on for at least a few days before changing them, or would that not have impacted it much?

The print is much better now, and has a beautiful picture. I just wish my company would allow me more than 4 cleaners for my booth. There are 16 screens here, two of which are generally running cleaners for prevention at all times. On one of my cleaners the pads have a tendency of creeping outwards, which can cause problems if they aren't caught in time (Fc-1 Christie). Which leaves me with one cleaner to shift around for problem prints since I only use the Christie in emergency situations such as the times the AC units have poured water on prints overnight (those were some fun Monday mornings).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2003, 07:08 PM:
 
It mostly depends on your platter. If you have an AW3 with the brain spring removed, then that exerts just about perfect tension and yes you could've ran a few days without changing. If that spring was still in the center brain roller, then you probably couldn't have ran more than a couple of shows without having to change out the pads due to the increased pressure on the media. On the other hand if you have a Strong platter, you could probably run a week on dirty pads. There just isn't enough backtension to do a very good job of cleaning without a LOT of passes on a Strong.

It all just depends on your equipment.
 

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Posted by Michael Trotochaud (Member # 1513) on 09-01-2003, 08:35 PM:
 
Just want to check a couple things out. Fresh media and FG on prints first run lubricates it. Subsiquent runs will clean it. Does this mean that the media and FG need to be used once before it starts cleaning it, or does it mean that the print needs an initial coat. If it is the initial coat that is needed, why would putting on fresh media and FG not clean the print?

Mike
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-01-2003, 08:45 PM:
 
Who actually made the perferated teflon tape that was sold with the cinebug's
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-01-2003, 10:49 PM:
 
Subsequent passes through the film cleaner will clean the print, not just running it through a projector. I'm not sure if that is what you are asking or if you are asking something else.
 

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Posted by Michael Trotochaud (Member # 1513) on 09-02-2003, 12:07 AM:
 
Brad, I'm referring to this statement that you made above:

quote:

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Jeff, 3 times on an old dirty print may not be enough. Also, did you use freshly saturated pads on all 3 of those runs? The key here is to remember that on the pass with fresh media and FG, you are NOT cleaning the film. You are only coating and lubricating. It is the subsequent passes through those same pads (not resaturated) that starts pulling off the dirt.

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