Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Platter problems. Speco LP270/3. bottom platter scratching

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Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-20-2003, 06:50 PM:

Hellooo,

Two of our houses have the Speco LP 270/3 platters. If that doesn't ring a bell, they have the three rollers at the top and the adjustable takeup roller instead of the three fixed takeup rollers and two top rollers.

The bottom platter on these two platters always scratches film. The sideways angle deck scratches on the emulsion side. The thing is, I have litterally watched the thing run through start to finish and I never see the film even touch the deck where it comes onto the platter at that angle.

Is there something somewhere else that could cause these sideways scratches? Only on the bottom platter?

My first thought was warped discs. Well, I never saw the film touch so even if it is warped(which I have since concluded it is anyway) it doesn't seem to be the cause.

I know a time or two the roller assembly has slipped out of the hole and slipped down a 1/4 inch or so and this of course does scratch the film.

It's just odd that it doesn't have this problem on the top two decks.

My second thought was that adjustment is needed but it is on both platters and it seems to be not scraping anywhere.

Could it even be something with the payout platter on that bottom deck? Maybe in the brain where the film does it's first bit of twisting?

It's just driving me mad! LOL

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-20-2003, 08:02 PM:

Do you have a keeper on the last roller in the chain? (The roller that you dismount and remount to takeup on different decks.) If not, put one on there. If the roller's bracket can not pivot effortlessly, it will remain pointed toward the center ring and the scratching will get worse as the movie progresses.

If you are getting actual "platter deck" scratches, the scratches will be worse at the beginning of the movie and fade as the show progresses. Which is your situation?

Always run the film soundtrack up on the platter decks and with the soundtrack on the takeup elevator towards the tree.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-20-2003, 08:54 PM:

As Brad stated those are possabilities. One thing to think about is this. Since you are using the bottom deck to pay out from do you have a print covered on the middle deck. If so does the cover hang over the edge of the platter and touch the film as it is paying out. Something you will want to make sure doesn't happen

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-21-2003, 12:24 AM:

Umm, not sure on whether the scratches were worse on the beginning or the end. We don't use the bottom platters on those two platters at all anymore. It's just not worth those scratches. We use the three new smaller screens for 99% of our splits now so we can just avoid those bottom decks completely. At least until I figure out where the problem is. I have an old preview reel ready to go to test it as I get some ideas.

I'm check on the soundtrack up and in part which means the emulsion side is always on the rollers.

The roller bracket pivots freely and there was never a cover on a print on the middle deck(we don't even have any that I know of... again, I've been in quite the microcosm the year or so that I have been in this business.)

Maybe the time I watched the film for so long everything was just right, and maybe it is the assembly popping out of the hole.

We thought for a long time that was sure to be it and that it was operator error. But, Seabiscut was a brand new print and it had a couple of scratches in that direction on one of those platters and it wasn't on the bottom platter. It's the only time we had seen that happen so soon and three of us were there so we know it wasn't operator error as far as the film scraping against anything because of laziness in threading the platter.

With that, we thought... well maybe it isn't just those bottom platters, but it was just that one time and we havne't seen it since. Maybe something happened at the lab on that one as it did have very very fine base side scratches on the first run(which was indeed filmgaurded, I don't run a new film without it.) We looked the platter over and all rollers were rolling and nothing was dragging. The projector had just been cleaned out so we are still [Confused]

Perhaps there is just some slight microscopic thing out of alignment that isn't seen with the eye so much but is just enough to scratch on those two bottom decks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-21-2003, 03:16 AM:

Let us know whether you guys are running soundtrack up or soundtrack down, then try and describe the scratches as you see them projected onto the screen. We can be of more help that way.

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 08-21-2003, 09:04 AM:

Also, does your platter have all the upgrades like the keeper roller kit, adjustable take-up roller retrofit kit, and drop-in payout control retrofit?

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-21-2003, 11:56 AM:

I'm not sure on the retrofits. Is there a site where I can see what they kits look like?

I know they are running the soundtrack up and towards the tree. I'll have to see if we still have a print going that found it's way on one of those bottom platters to look at it. Finding Nemo was the last print that I know of that was ever run down there.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-21-2003, 12:34 PM:

Check the alighnment of the two inch rollers in the brain. If you are running the film with soundtrack up and you pull the film through the brain to the first roller on tree with the soundtrack torwards the tree. The film will have a noticable sag in it. If that two inch roller is not alighned just right that sag can run across the edge or the roller in the brain. I normaly pull the film through with soundtrack to me in that area to eliminate the sag.

this is the way that the film comes off for me. No large amount of sagging.

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 08-23-2003, 05:47 PM:

Kevin,

Does your SPECO LP270 have a fixed roller to take-up on each deck or one take-up roller on a slider that you position in the correct location for your take-up deck? I ask because we have 5 LP-270's and 1 of them has the sliding take-up deck roller.

If you have the sliding take-up deck roller and the scratching is only happening when you play to the bottom deck, then it is possible that the sliding roller is simply at the bottom of the slider rather than sitting slightly higher in its notched hole. If the roller is sitting below the level of the platter deck the film will drag on the deck and scratch.

Good luck!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-23-2003, 06:11 PM:

Ky hit on something I had completely forgotten about. What I prefer to do to ensure that this does not happen is wrap gaffer's tape around the base of the rod such that if the projectionist doesn't get the pin locked into place for running to the bottom platter, the tape at roughly 1/4" lower will prevent the roller from dropping "too far downward" and stop scratching across the surface of the deck.

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 08-23-2003, 06:26 PM:

Brad,

That's an excellent idea!

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-23-2003, 07:28 PM:

It's the adjustable bar type.

The thought of it slipping was the first thing we suspected so when I watched it I made sure it was in that position. I'm sure a few times that was indeed the cause, but it seems like it will do even with it positioned correctly.

I did notice that some of it might be during build up. Those Speco tables are hard to position correctly and I think at times they may have fallen off the blocks or shifted. I also think that the film sometimes is dragging the table just like it would the platter during a show. We discussed this last night a bit.

We're not where we want to be yet but we are working on it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-23-2003, 07:37 PM:

It works on Christie platters too. It's never been a problem in theaters I've worked, but for places with high booth turnover it is a big benefit.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-23-2003, 08:49 PM:

Yeah, the Christie's have the pins and if you postion the roller bracket on top of the pin it can slip off. Is the gaffer's tape easy to replace when it gets smushed a bit? I know some tapes get hard and nearly impossible to peel if they get all smushed up like that.

I do like the tape idea. At least I can put it on and if the bottom platters never scratch again in that manner we will know... and if it does still scratch at least we have eliminated one thing.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-23-2003, 09:23 PM:

Permacel brand gaffer's tape is what I use. It won't leave a residue unlike duct tape and other cheap tapes. A nice hefty roll will cost you almost $20, but it is well worth it. I buy mine from Panavision in the Dallas area, but maybe John Pytlak will chime in shortly with a link to buy it online.

For an AW3 platter, you can also dismount the track from the platter tree and drill a hole, then simply put a nut and bolt through the hole that will never wear. Just make sure you have your markings set just right before you drill.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-23-2003, 09:50 PM:

Gaffer's Tape:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cinemasupplies/2progpergaft3.html

http://www.cutfilm.com/supplies.html

http://www.goodbrothers.com/Search.bok?category=Supplies

http://www.phototechinc.com/tapes.htm

http://www.dudleytheatrical.com/pages/tape.html

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 08-24-2003, 06:02 PM:

Kevin,

Sounds very much like emulsion side down scratching by the plate at take up.
These are scratches (green ones) going from top left to bottom right. RIGHT??

Firstly, I believe the newer Speco's are the BEST platters going around.

The problem with the earlier ones (with the slide-adjustable take-up roller) was that, with bottom deck
there was only about 10mm between it locking in and GOING TOO low, which can be missed. On the top and middle
deck you noticed pretty quick if you did not get a GOOD lock.

The white paint used on earlier Speco's sucked, and was easy damaged by moving prints all the time, so having a print drag on that area (the edge) would not be good. (The new ones seem to have a more durable surface)

Regarding the the locking pin, they suck, when they come loose they are a pain in the ass to fix, but once loc-tighten
they are fine, until the spring in pin gives up. Then try removing one loc-tightened!

The newer Speco's, where you have to actually remove the whole take up roller and move it to a different
are deck, are a 'pain', but at least you are sure it's not going anywhere. (Even if they do use the same pin)

The 'inbween' Speco's that used complicated 'digital' to detect which plate should be taking-up/paying-out plain sucked.

That said, and again I think SPECO is the BEST, it seems many platter systems have this lower deck problem where
the take up roller-slide assembly can can slip just that 1/2 inch lower that where it should be.

1/ The older Speco. (BTW: Never skip a take-up roller and use 4 of the 5, it winds F888ing TIGHT!!!)
2/ The AW-3 (been so long, cant even remember if the older ones had slide take up rollers)
3/ The CNR-35 (though this one will not take up unless it is locked into place, activating a micro switch)
4/ The ERM, can even remember the name now, but they sucked, erm, Eprad perhaps, I hated those.
5/ No wonder I got FIRED, I can't remember a thing. Stress?? (Hello to 'I KNOW WHO YOU ARE' - asshole)

Back to your problem, there are 3 things I've noted with Speco's.

1/ They need to be DEAD level - Not that, that effects the overall film path.
2/ They need to be put together correctly - and even if so...
3/ They need slight modifications. (one being 'angle of attack' of the arm that holds the plate)

Point three is the most important in your case. (and this is a bit hard to explain)

All 3 or 4 arms that hold the plate up are not always 'square' to level when bolted together.
The four bolts that hold the arm on might need a washer or two added to the lower two bolts to 'lift' it a little.
(The Film never needs to drag on the outer edge of the plate - a 1/4 inch (max) above is fine, I say)

As it seems you are only having trouble with the lower deck pin location, I would straight away drill and pin
so the roller assembly can't EVER go below where it can drag the film on the plate.
(It is intersting however, that you note, you have never seen the film drag on the plate)

You point out the MUT might be being a cause. Are you using 35mm/70mm (Speco) rollers to make-up from MUT to plate?
If so, avoid it, they pinch the film, get 35mm rollers off another MUT. I'm not saying that is the problem though.

Again with the MUT, I know it's annoying to get the roller in the right position to make-up to plate, but an idea is to
mark where the roller should be for each plate with a paint marker in a general area slightly AVOVE the perfect spot!
Also make sure all take-up rollers track with the plate as it fills up.

I would stay with sound track down (on the test film you suggested) until you find the cause, you said you are using film-guard, this could be masking how many prints are being damaged, due to film guard being able to 'fix' base damage.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards Bill.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 08-24-2003, 06:59 PM:

I have seen situations with the pins where the opperator did not get them seated in the hole and they would drop down causing the film to drag on the deck. The issue with the paint is not neccassarily because it is bad but because people let the ring pins scrape the decks. the newer rings use nylon pins. The removable take up rollers were available for the older speco decks with the fixed pisition slide in for threading rollers.

The AW3's used the sliding bars from the start as far as I know. The AW2's used the ones that swong with a door closer michanism.

Specos are very good platters if you keep them maintained and watch for things getting out of alighnment.

The tables he talks about sounds like the wooden ones. I only built up films and took them apart using the middle platters and no rollers when using those.

The gray tables are really not that hard to get the film to the platter decks in reguards to roller adjustment. If I remember right I had to take a roller assembly from another table that could slide on the bar upside down so that the film could run on as if it were like a christie table.

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 08-28-2003, 08:08 PM:

Kevin,

the subject of MUT's reminded me to ask, are you using the old style genuine fake woodgrain mut with the horizontal reel? If so, Ian and I highly recommend springing for a new MUT from SPECO. We inherited the old style muts with the equipment at our theatre. After a year we sprung for a new MUT after seeing it at ShoWest. I can't tell you how much of a difference it makes. And the good news is that the new MUT wasn't that expensive - about $800 (including tax, shipping, etc) and worth every penny.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-28-2003, 10:42 PM:

Oh yes, we have three of those awefull things! LOL.

I'll show the owner your recommendation on that. I don't get to make decisions on such expenses. [Frown]

The other theatre they own has AW3s(our AW3s are on the filterdown screens and never see a new print unfortunately) and they seldom scratch film and they have all teenage projectionists! Such continues to leave me thinking that those awefull makeup tables are largely the culprit.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-28-2003, 10:47 PM:

Kevin, do you have keeper rollers on your makeup table rollers? If not ORDER THEM! I don't know why SPECO thought when they were designing that unit that the film would somehow magically stay put on those rollers, because it won't. I have built hundreds of prints with those wooden table horizontal MUTs and never had a scratched print. (Of course the first thing I would do in any SPECO booth was to order the keepers and brackets and put them on pronto.)

The SPECO LP-270 is a pretty damned good platter. If I couldn't have an AW3, that (or the LP-280) would be the only other acceptable platter on my list.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 08-28-2003, 11:27 PM:

I've not used the lp280 but I agree... I really like the Speco platters. Particularly the brain. The speed arm is just that... a speed arm. Not a on/off switch. LOL

One thing I am really talking about and stressing is slowing down. We were taught to basically do it as fast as you can and performance seemed to be judged by how fast you could break down a film. Of course a few times, you get a print in at 6:00 and you've got to move pretty quick to get ready for the 7:00 show(after having already lost the 4:00 show because the plane left late,) but that's another thing altogether.

Posted by Chris Greenwell (Member # 1660) on 08-29-2003, 04:04 PM:

I ran the old drive in platters (Specos) for years and never had really any problems to mention. I had more problems with the LP270's that were from about 10 years ago with all the extra rollers., But I really dig the brand new ones, I like how they made it so the control panel can flip down instead of having to remove the screws. Also how easy they made it to change out the switches instead of having to take three hours to soldier a new one back in..