Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cyan Dye Track Experiences with "Anything Else"

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-06-2003, 09:22 AM:

As most everyone knows, the Dreamworks 35mm prints of Woody Allen's film "Anything Else" all have the new Cyan Dye Tracks for analog sound. As with most recent Woody Allen films, the mix is mono, but does have SRD, SDDS and DTS digital tracks as well:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001044

Even if you normally play digital sound, please play and listen to the entire analog track at least once, and post your subjective impression of the analog sound quality (compared to conventional analog tracks) here. Please also post details of the red light analog sound reader you are using, and what sound processor / noise reduction system you are using.

For those still using old tungsten exciter lamp readers, try playing the analog Cyan Dye Track and describe the sound quality, which will have a low level and be quite noisy on a white light reader.

http://www.dyetracks.org

(Please keep discussion on this thread to first-hand experiences with Cyan Dye Tracks on the film "Anything Else". Other discussion should be posted on the other threads discussing Cyan Dye Tracks).

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-06-2003, 10:35 AM:

John, do you know if the cyan tracks will be used only on the American prints of this title, or also on those in other countries? Also, does the trailer for this film have a cyan track?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-06-2003, 11:20 AM:

All the trailers I have seen for this are standard high-magenta silver/dye tracks.

-Aaron

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-06-2003, 11:02 PM:

Ironically, the trailer of Anything Else we have been playing is not only not cyan but it isn't high-magenta either...is good old fashioned conventional cyan+magenta applicated track. Are you sure Aaron about your high-magenta tracks?

Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-06-2003, 11:20 PM:

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I have a hard time being interested in anything cyan-dye related. But I noticed that the Dolby Digital track (I refuse to call it SRD because the 'SR' is not actually in the digital portion of the track) is also cyan. What happens if you have a Cat 699 or Cat 700 reader? Will it play OK or will you be required to upgrade the reader?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-07-2003, 03:23 AM:

Steve: My bad- I shouldnt have said 'High Mgenta'.

Joe: I asked this question at the NATO Dolby training seminar. According to Dolby, the SRD tracks have been all-dye (silverless) since the beginning (excepting B/W and IB receiver stocks of course).

-Aaron

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-07-2003, 12:19 PM:

Joe, to make it more clear...no, you will NOT have to upgrade any Dolby Digital reader for the sake of Cyan tracks...unless you have an IR system basement reader where they used the light-pipe system...then you will have to downgrade from the EPT lamp to the LED based basement reader.

This has to do with the need for better heat sinking when using the visible red LED for analog and nothing to do with the digital reader aspects.

All the digital reader is trying to do is differentiate between a clear or opaque bit (on DRAS...it is the dual camel hump Histogram portion that lets you see what it is trying to do). Unlike analog where we desire good dynamic range, all the digital portion has to do is to decide if it crosses one threshold so application for better contrast was never required.

Steve

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-08-2003, 08:19 AM:

Technicolor has made a few High-Magenta prints of this title. Not all prints are Cyan. I have three High-Magenta prints and one Cyan print in my booth right now.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-08-2003, 10:37 AM:

Once again, the industry tells us one thing and does another. (Unless the HM prints were struck especially for Bill's situation).

-Aaron

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-08-2003, 10:56 AM:

Hey Bill, are those HM prints release prints from dupe negs?

--jhawk

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-08-2003, 12:49 PM:

No they are EK Show Prints.

We handle screenings for Woody Allen here in NYC.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-08-2003, 01:19 PM:

Stephen Furley asked:

quote:
John, do you know if the cyan tracks will be used only on the American prints of this title, or also on those in other countries? Also, does the trailer for this film have a cyan track?

AFAIK, all RELEASE prints worldwide will have Cyan Dye analog tracks. At least two sound negatives optimized for cyan dye track printing were made, and only one sound negative optimized for high magenta (for direct prints).

Trailers do not have cyan dye tracks.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-08-2003, 07:25 PM:

I thought each track is printed by a separate light source. So why would the SR•D digital track be cyan as well? Why not leave it as dye-only (unapplicated) black? If it aint broke...

Of course that applies to the entirety of this conversion but there is another thread for that.

Posted by Torsten Jasper (Member # 1860) on 09-08-2003, 07:41 PM:

quote:
John wrote:
Trailers do not have cyan dye tracks.

Are you shure,
I remember we have some in Germany.
Greetings...
T. J.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-08-2003, 08:22 PM:

Bill--have you noticed any sound quality differences between the high-magenta and cyan tracks? Could we convince you to take two of the same reel (one cyan, one high-magenta) and run one on each machine and make random changeovers throughout to evaluate the sound quality? (I am assuming that your screening room uses red LED readers.)

Why would the non-cyan prints be high-magenta, anyway? Since the cyan prints will play in venues which are equipped with red LED soundheads, wouldn't it make sense to optimize the non-cyan prints for exciter lamp playback (i.e. silver track)?

I've occasionally had the good fortune to handle EK prints/showprints/answer prints; will these eventually have dye tracks, too, or will they always have silver/high-magenta tracks?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-08-2003, 08:38 PM:

Scott
When I was running the High-Magenta prints, they ran and sounded fine. The error rate on the 500 was mainly 3's. Today I ran the Cyan print it was hitting 4s and alot of 5s on some reels on the CP. I have it running again tomorrow at 6pm. We have basement readers on our Magna-Tech PR-135 (FP20) projectors.
When we did the print sound checks for each format for Woody we ran the film in each format all the way though SRD / DTS / SDDS
/ SR.
The last format we checked was when we got the one-offs from DTS.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-08-2003, 11:20 PM:

Bill Gabel wrote:

quote:
When I was running the High-Magenta prints, they ran and sounded fine. The error rate on the 500 was mainly 3's. Today I ran the Cyan print it was hitting 4s and alot of 5s on some reels on the CP. I have it running again tomorrow at 6pm. We have basement readers on our Magna-Tech PR-135 (FP20) projectors

Whether the analog track is high magenta or cyan dye, it should not have affected the digital error rate. Perhaps the high magenta prints were EK Show Prints, done on a slower printer?

Did you have a chance to compare both the high magenta and cyan dye analog tracks for sound quality on the same reader/system?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-09-2003, 07:49 AM:

Not yet, I will see about it sometime today.

I only posted the digital error rate info. Just in case anyone was interested , since the film opens very shortly.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-18-2003, 07:06 AM:

My first encounter with the cyan Anything Else...

I just did a basement reader to basement reader conversion for a customer that is to play the film...The reason...the old basement reader had IR light for analog and the good old EPT lamp for digital...one can't just install a visible red LED in place of the IR since the heat sinking on the IR LED brackets was not sufficient. The digital change came along for the ride so they went from an EPT lamp to visible red LED (CE has no way to retain the light pipe of the EPT with red reader brackets)

The entire sound negative is mono chromatic so all of the sound elements are CYAN...This includes the Dolby and DTS digital track areas.

We only check the system with one reel of the print to verify good analog and digital performance. No overt problems noted with the analog performance (as in it worked, not necessarily as well as IR LEDs and applicated tracks but it obeyed physical laws and the red LED did its job with the cyan track) and the level match between analog and digital was quite good.

On the digital side...it worked too (in fact, the change to the RED LED might have been the way to go with a cyan Dolby Digital track). However, with focus ratings near 80 on my test film...plumeted to 45-50 on Anything Else.

This is certainly not conclusive since I also have measured test film that achieves only a focus rating about 69 on even the best of readers and penthouses.

What I'm curious to see is how the tungsten filament penthouse readers do with a cyan Dolby Digital track (Cat. 699 and Cat 700). The cyan is translucent and is apt to give the digital processor more difficulty with deciding what level the bits are...once abrasion sets in as the print wears on the runners/tension bands/pads...etc.) how that plays into the mix.

If you have a white light digital reader and the dras/WinDras program...see how it does...pay attention to the "Quick Histogram" section...you should see two peaks that either fill the hight of the display area (so they level off) or peaks that are near that level...low peaks means the processor is struggling. One peak represents bright or a "1" bit and the other represents dark or a "0" bit. Just going to the red readers (basement or Cat. 701 or Cat. 702) normally lowers the peak of the right hand "hump". White light readers normally have high peaks and are often flattened off on the display (really good tracking).

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-18-2003, 07:33 AM:

quote:

The entire sound negative is mono chromatic so all of the sound elements are CYAN...This includes the Dolby and DTS digital track areas.

It needn't be done this way, Dolby digital in all three dyes plus SDDS in Cyan only is done, isn't it. Presumably they must have chosen to do it this way for some reason. Just for simplicity maybe, or is the DD sharper if in only one layer?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-18-2003, 08:33 AM:

Steve Guttag wrote:

quote:
No overt problems noted with the analog performance (as in it worked, not necessarily as well as IR LEDs and applicated tracks but it obeyed physical laws and the red LED did its job with the cyan track) and the level match between analog and digital was quite good.

Wow! The world has not ended, and the sky has not fallen. [Wink]

Let's toast with a glass of pure, clean water. [beer]

As to the Dolby Digital track being cyan only: I agree that using more than just the cyan layer for the Dolby Digital track probably provides a stronger signal (focus rating), especially with tungsten lamp illumination. Since the Dolby Digital track has never needed silver application, and since it is printed with a SEPARATE light source in the printer, it is NOT necessary to print the Dolby Digital track as cyan-only. Unless testing by Dolby indicates otherwise, I would think using all three dye layers would offer a more robust bitstream and lower error rate, especially with a tungsten light source.

Perhaps there was some miscommunication, and the lab thought the Dolby Digital track should be printed in the cyan only too?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-18-2003, 04:11 PM:

I was surprised to see the DD track in cyan and it sure gives the illusion that it's printed with the same light source. I presume that the DTS timecode really IS printed with the analog track though.

BTW, my very first samples of SDDS had them using the magenta layer. That would look pretty sweet with a cyan analog track.

Images & soundtrack © 2003 Dreamworks and various big people who could smite me if they wished but I hope they don't. The Double-D symbol (can you see it?) is a registered trademark of Dolby® Laboratories.

Presented for educational purposes only!

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-19-2003, 12:53 AM:

I know that at least one of our non-LED-equipped locations has this film booked. I am awaiting the inevitible pages and '911' calls that will be coming tomorrow evening... [Roll Eyes]

-Aaron

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-19-2003, 05:57 AM:

I just screened this film on a white system. It sounds pretty bad, but not as outlandish as I had imagined. The overall level is low (you have to turn the fader all the way up), there is a certain level of background noise, especially a constant high-pitched wailing sound.
Switching to Academy mono with its filtering characteristics gets rid of that. For a Woody Allen movie with his typical mono mix with predominantly dialog and historical recordings, this is somehow acceptable. I am sure that is why this movie was chosen as the first to have a cyan track.

We already have enough red systems and of course our good old dts systems to cope with this first release without these compromises. And yes, we will put in more in the near future. Still, I resent the way this is pushed on us exhibitors without sharing the costs. I would much rather have spent all that money elsewhere.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-19-2003, 06:02 AM:

quote:
I know that at least one of our non-LED-equipped locations has this film booked. I am awaiting the inevitible pages and '911' calls that will be coming tomorrow evening...

-Aaron

If they KNEW they were playing this picture, why didn't they convert that screen to a red LED reader? The fact that all the release prints would have cyan dye analog tracks was announced months ago. If they're hoping to only use digital sound, let's hope their digital system doesn't default to analog for any reason, or it won't only be the soundtrack that is HISSING! [Roll Eyes]

I do hope some theatres TEST screen their print on a tungsten "white light" analog reader, and report the results here (low signal level, and high noise when you have to raise the fader are the expected result -- as Michael Schaffer found). But please DON'T try to screen it this way for a paying audience. [Frown]

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-19-2003, 08:19 AM:

If a cyan version of Dolby Tone were offered then someone with a white light reader could see where they were in terms of signal, crank the exciter voltage up to maximum, and do what they could with pre-amp gain (the latter won't help the S/N but at least the noisy signal would be going through NR and the matrix at the proper level). The strong DC offset caused by all that IR sailing right through the IR-transparent track ought to be ignored by the CP pre-amp, no? Of course such a showing would have to be sans any non-cyan trailers etc.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-19-2003, 03:09 PM:

How big is the level difference? Judging by my experiments last night, I would guess about 12dB.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-19-2003, 03:39 PM:

quote:
How big is the level difference? Judging by my experiments last night, I would guess about 12dB.

You're darn close. The SMPTE paper by Paul Goldberg estimated ~11 dB signal loss if you play a cyan dye track on a white-light tungsten exciter lamp reader:

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 09-19-2003, 07:35 PM:

John-

To answer your request for information at the begining of the thread:

The print is playing in analog in our number 5 house. 5 Star Soundhead with LED reverse scan. CP 55 processor with Crown amps. There was no appreciable difference between the trailers and the print. I did not have to touch the gain. I did not detect any difference in quality of sound compared to other prints we have played in this house. Hope this answers your question.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-19-2003, 08:31 PM:

John, Thank you. As you may know, the Cyan Dye Track Committee is meeting at ShowEast, and this kind of factual information will be very helpful.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-21-2003, 07:42 PM:

quote:
Wow! The world has not ended, and the sky has not fallen. Let's toast with a glass of pure, clean water.

No the world has not ended...just downgraded and once again people are made to settle for a little less (on this film). You and the rest of the reckless dye-track people have yet to provide any long-term knowledge of the cyan dye-track's performance.

I was merely reported the facts as I saw them...the purpose of this thread. Keep your enviro-wacko opinions to the other thread.

Respectfully,

Steve

Posted by Steven Privett (Member # 718) on 09-21-2003, 10:30 PM:

[ 10-03-2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Steven Privett ]

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 09-21-2003, 11:28 PM:

Has anyone tried the cyan track with the CAT-700 white light readers? Is the error rate OK? OR -- should you really have a CAT-701 or 702?

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-21-2003, 11:41 PM:

Ran our print using the JAX light system. No apparent noise noticed and the levels matched the levels of the DTS soundtrack. DTS timecode ran without any problems.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2003, 05:48 AM:

quote:
Has anyone tried the cyan track with the CAT-700 white light readers? Is the error rate OK? OR -- should you really have a CAT-701 or 702?

I wouldn't come to any conclusions yet. AFAIK, the Dolby Digital (SRD) color balance is still being optimized for both tungsten and red Dolby Digital readers. As previously discussed, the color balance of the Dolby Digital track is a separate issue from cyan dye analog tracks. The Dolby SRD track NEVER required silver redevelopment.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 09-22-2003, 08:40 AM:

I have this print as well. We've run it in DTS thusfar, but today I plan to let it run with the infrared and have a listen. The film, after all, isn't one that is garnering much attention (in my area) which is probably the reason behind making it the first all cyan dye track print... ???

Will report back later on what I find..

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2003, 10:21 AM:

Jason Black wrote:

quote:
...but today I plan to let it run with the infrared and have a listen.

Did you mean red LED? Or are you using an infrared source (e.g., infrared LEDs)? A cyan dye track requires a RED reader, or else it will have low level and be quite noisy.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-22-2003, 11:28 AM:

"You and the rest of the reckless dye-track people have yet to provide any long-term knowledge of the cyan dye-track's performance."
______________________________________________
I got a good laugh out of this one! I guess Steve, thats what they are now in the process of......developing that long term knowledge base on Cyan Tracks. Its about impossible to develope any long term meaningful knowledge on them without putting the thing in a general wide release so everyone gets setup for exposing any booby-traps. In fact, the tighter processing control which Cyan Tracks require JUST MIGHT RESULT in nicer looking images on release prints in the long run. Since most sites that have any box office income meaning are playing back in digital the nicer images would be a big bonus.

So far cyan has been zero trouble in this area except for a few locations needing to be converted at the last min.

Of course I sometimes reflect back on all the re-developed tracks I have heard over the years that were the culprit of bad bearings on the re-development rollers....that grind-grind noise you got from them........

Steve, Every process has its faults...nothng is perfect....

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 09-22-2003, 11:37 AM:

John,

Yes, I meant that I have the print in an auditorium with an infrared LED, not the required RED LED. It has played in DTS, so we haven't noticed any problems. I don't recall what house it was screened in but my operator didn't report any unusual problems relating to sound level(s) on screening. Will test it today to see what sound 'nuances' the infrared LED yields.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2003, 12:10 PM:

Jason: If you play the cyan dye analog track with an INFRARED LED reader, you should get about the same results that Michael Schaffer did --- a low signal level (~11dB) that requires you to increase the gain, and significantly more noise (more than just a "nuance"). Fortunately, you evidently have rare default to analog with your DTS system, which already uses a red LED to read the DTS timecode.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-22-2003, 03:03 PM:

John reminded us:
The Dolby SRD track NEVER required silver redevelopment.

Maybe it should have, John! Maybe a silver applicated SR•D track and a white light reader would give everyone error rates of 0 and 1! [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2003, 04:24 PM:

Applying a viscous bead of caustic developer over the perforations in a precise manner on film traveling through a processing machine at hundreds of meters per minute? Messy. Can you say "splash"? I see images with silver polka dots. [Roll Eyes]

Dolby did the right thing using sensors sensitive to mostly visible light, and then red LEDs.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-22-2003, 04:47 PM:

Bah! All this talk of silver sickens me. Everyone knows that the entire print should be made out of pure asbestos.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-22-2003, 06:24 PM:

I think Joe is a vampire, afraid of silver.

But anyway, they should go back to printing SR•D with white light. If it aint broke don't fix it and to the extent that there is any difference that is what everyone has adjusted for.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-22-2003, 09:13 PM:

As I said, Dolby is working with the labs to verify the best color balance for the Dolby Digital SRD track for both tungsten and red LED readers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-22-2003, 09:52 PM:

"Maybe it should have, John! Maybe a silver applicated SR•D track and a white light reader would give everyone error rates of 0 and 1!"
_________________________________________________________________

Wouldn't that pretty much be the equivelent of a Dye Transfer B&W track? How did they fare at error rates?
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 09-22-2003, 11:02 PM:

quote:
Wouldn't that pretty much be the equivelent of a Dye Transfer B&W track? How did they fare at error
rates?

The SRD tracks on all of the IB and B/W prints I have handled were fine for the first couple shows, then basically rendered themselves unplayable as the film edges shedded themselves into oblivion- This was especially the case with GWTW '98...

Amazingly, the SDDS survived longer than the SRD. [Roll Eyes]

-Aaron

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-23-2003, 07:04 AM:

A theater in Denver, Colorado that has Component Engineering red LED soundheads (that I installed myself so I know they are not infrared) is reporting the need to adjust the volume between trailers and the feature. This theater does not adjust volume for the feature on any other movies, they just let the trailers play louder than the feature, but this movie in particular they are saying sounds really bad and needs a substantial volume increase. They say the trailers play between 5 and 6 on the fader (that's what they usually play the feature at), and the movie must be played between 8 and 9. They only have analog sound and are playing it in a house with a CP50 with Dolby SR cards. I am a bit confused about this. But that's what they report.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-23-2003, 08:08 AM:

Joe: Seeing that most others here are reporting no significant level difference when played with a red LED reader, you may want to check this out in person. Don't forget that this is a subtle mono mix -- could just be that they are comparing this picture to ones with a loud mix. The Billie Holiday recording that opens and closes the film is deliberately noisy like an old record.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 09-24-2003, 09:50 AM:

Forgot to post the fact that on changing formats between DTS & SR on the CP65, I lost all sound. This, again, is with the infrared LED. I didn't have much time on my hands, so I didn't stay around to play the gain, etc.

In 16 screens, I have only 4 red LED's. Cyan tracks, for me, at this time, unless they are on a blockbuster, are bad. I must hold this print in a larger house until we lose it in order for it to be audible. That blows [puke]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-24-2003, 09:59 AM:

Jason,
Whoever owns your theatre shoulsd be shot. I don't think there are that many infrared LED's left in the whole state of Utah. converting them over to visible is a simple job indeed.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 09-24-2003, 03:58 PM:

Mark,

If you knew who I worked for, you'd understand. We had a few theatres in SLC when you were out there... and we've neevr been a company known to spend much money...

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-25-2003, 09:10 AM:

Hi everyone! I'm just back from Jeff's 3D expo in LA, and I've been out of the loop for a while. I start back at the theater on Friday, and I'm planning to run this movie after hours in our big auditorium, which is equipped with a brand new red JAX light reader (which replaced the exciter bulb setup), a CP 65 with a DA 10 and CAT 700 reader, a DTS 6A, and an SDDS 2000. I'm basically going to be doing an ear test in the theater between the different formats, and looking at the Dolby error rate and such. I don't have the equipment to do extensive pressure level tests in the theater or anything like that, but if anyone wants me to look at anything in particular, please let me know.

Thanks,
Mark

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 09-25-2003, 03:04 PM:

The film has been out for a week now, and from my discussions with DreamWorks, I think I can say that this project was a success. I was told that DreamWorks had encountered no more than the "normal" problem calls, and that there were very few reel replacement calls... And none related to the Cyan Analog Dye Track.

Yes, this was a small release. But nowadays, that is they way you spell success in technologial terms, one release at a time.

Congrats to those "reckless" members of the Cyan Dye Track Committee. Congrats to Technicolor for the successful printing of the new track. Congrats to the Exhibition community for converting (65% to 85% of you) and pulling this project off. And most of all, Congrats to DreamWorks for being the bold, "first fish in the pond."

Now, who's next?

Yours, Ted

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-25-2003, 03:13 PM:

Ted, maybe you can ask to find out who decided to print the SR•D track in cyan as well and for what reason or was it just a misunderstanding.

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 09-25-2003, 07:30 PM:

Steve,

Do you want to get me in trouble?

How about that California recall election (as he tries to change the subject)?

Yours, Ted

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-25-2003, 08:47 PM:

Whatever the reason the SRD track was printed as only cyan, I'm sure tests are underway to find the optimum color balance for future releases. It really has nothing to do with the analog track being cyan, which worked exactly as expected.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-25-2003, 09:41 PM:

SR•D has been around quite awhile now. Surely they must know what the optimum color balance is by now. Presumably that is something that looks black to the eye. Why would they only be running tests now? Unless perhaps the cyan analog track caused someone to say, "Gee, we never really tried different colors." No wonder Ted doesn't want to ask! [Eek!]

Posted by Ted Costas (Member # 473) on 09-26-2003, 07:27 PM:

Dolby is currently testing to find the correct density for the possibility of one day printing the digital track in cyan.

There is no advantage environmentally for printing the digital tracks in cyan.

Three color, neutral gray is standard for Dolby Digital printing until tests prove otherwise.

Steve, it's not that I don't want to ask...

It worked. Minimal complaints came in regarding the Digital Cyan track. We are happy that the digital cyan did not effect the success of the analog cyan tracks.

Yours, Ted

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-26-2003, 09:06 PM:

As Ted wrote:

quote:
There is no advantage environmentally for printing the digital tracks in cyan.

The Dolby Digital (SRD) tracks never required silver to be redeveloped in the perforation area, as the readers have almost all their sensitivity in the visible (tungsten source) or red (LED source), and not the infrared. Of course, B&W prints and dye transfer prints had silver tracks with no dye, as they were developed and fixed as B&W silver-image film.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-30-2003, 09:16 PM:

Getting back to analog...

Somewhere there exists cyan tone and cyan noise as they would have no comparative data without them. The question is how can I get some?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-01-2003, 12:55 AM:

I have a roll of cyan tone film that I got from USL. Haven't seen cyan pink noise film yet.

-Aaron

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-01-2003, 01:03 AM:

Maybe he means Dolby Noise [Smile]

--jhawk

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-02-2003, 10:10 AM:

"Dolby Noise" actually exists It is a warbling noise recorded on SR mag to identify that it is SR encoded at ref level compared to the Warble tone of true dolby tone recorded to id dolby A material mag elements

Posted by Kirk Mitchell (Member # 172) on 10-03-2003, 03:36 PM:

Well I got to screen this movie in a DTS house. This particular house has a problem with the analog reader that creates a slight buzz in the auditorium. My tech thinks I'm a nut because "he can't hear it", or maybe more likely he doesn't want to hear it.

So on to the screening. Started this up waited for the movie then I hear that noise that said it was reading off the sound track . I realized I forgot to put the DTS disc in so I ran upstairs and put in the disc made sure it switched over to DTS. Ran back down to the theater. It all sounded a lot better. So throughout the film I heard the buzz coming in and out. I can say the levels were not a problem but It seems the DTS reader could not get a consistent time code. I haven't had this problem in this house with any other print. So naturally I wonder if this has something to do with the cyan dye track.

So I guess I would like to know if anyone else had this problem. Or was this just some fluke that happened to coincide with this print.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-03-2003, 09:16 PM:

nope since dts has always used a red led that isn't your problem

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-03-2003, 09:21 PM:

Since you have had the buzz in analog for quite some time without repairing it, it's highly unlikely the cyan track was at fault. And as Gordon notes, the red LED in the DTS reader is fine with cyan time code.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-04-2003, 09:06 AM:

The consequences of playing a cyan soundtrack on an exciter lamp system or infrared reader go far beyond a mere loss of level and increase in noise.

What John Pytlak (and for that matter, Paul Goldberg) fail to mention is the effect that the Dolby noise reduction circuits in the cinema processor have on the soundtrack when the level of the incoming playback signal is well below the normal calibrated reference level.

An essential requirement of all Dolby noise reduction systems is that the level of the playback signal must precisely match that of the record signal, otherwise serious dynamic and spectral mis-tracking will occur. Hence the primary reason for the existence of Dolby Tone, to allow this precise matching to be achieved.

Because the noise reduction circuits are "programmed" to dynamically reduce the level of lower level signals, a signal that is already 12dB too low will be confused with normal low level signals and be further reduced by the NR circuits. But much worse than that, because the NR circuits have various built-in thresholds, things like dialog (which by it's very nature varies over a considerable range of levels) will "pump" badly because it no longer matches the threshold levels used during recording.

Furthermore, because the NR circuits are now behaving in a totally unpredictable fashion, the matrix decoder circuits (which follow the NR circuits) will also seriously mis-track, resulting in increased surround crosstalk and instability of the centre channel sound image.

As Michael has already discovered, no amount of winding up of the fader can fix all of this, the only option is to play the soundtrack in mono which disables the NR circuits and provides some brute force filtering of the additional noise. Even then the results will be very poor because the soundtrack is compressed and spectrally modified by the NR system during recording, so without a complementary system during playback, background sounds will be far too loud compared with things like dialog and the spectral balance will drift all over the shop.

The ONLY way to play a cyan soundtrack is with a red light source. Nothing else will provide even partially satifactory results.

[ 10-04-2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Ray Derrick ]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-04-2003, 09:20 AM:

Why is jacking up the preamp gain 12dB (ideally with cyan Dolby Tone) insufficient to address SR (or A) mistracking?

--jhawk

p.s.: Yes, I know what Dolby Noise is, Gordon. Otherwise it wouldn't have been funny!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-04-2003, 09:24 AM:

Increasing the preamp gain will also put the noise floor so much higher that it will still predominate as the NR circuits will not be able to deal with it

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-04-2003, 09:33 AM:

Of course increasing the preamp gain using cyan Dolby tone (which currenty doesn't seem to exist) will overcome most of the mis-tracking problems except, as Gordon points out, the NR will probably have trouble dealing with the relative increase in the noise level. That's another 12dB of noise don't forget.

But if you "jack up" the preamp gain and along comes one of those sneaky little silvered soundtracks, you will most likely overload the front end of the preamp, not to mention destroy the audience's hearing and also the noise reduction will no longer track the silvered stuff because the playback level is now way too high. This will result in the silvered soundtracks sounding noiser that before because the NR ciruits will confuse the noise with higher level signals and will not reduce it as much as it should.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-04-2003, 09:41 AM:

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing this as the Right thing to do, we're taking about what to do as a temporary measure if you find yourself in an ugly stew like this.

Sure, it'll be noiser. But it'll be noisier if you increase the fader (i.e. post-NR gain stage) by 12dB, too. I wonder how much of Gordon's comments are speculation.

I suppose the question is whether the gain you get by jacking up the preamp hurts your NR such than increasing the fader would have been better. I guess I don't understand enough about SR or A (and the answer might be different; perhaps it might make sense to play cyan SR prints with A-type noise reduction if you're going to play them with white light) to know. And I supppose there might be some strange effect such that it was best to raise the preamp by 6dB and the post-NR gain by 6dB, or 3+9dB, or 9+3dB, as opposed to the hypothetical 0+12dB or 12+0dB.

I suppose we're unlikely to know what is best.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-04-2003, 09:53 AM:

I have red LED basement readers at the screening room so this is purely an academic exercise but with cyan tone I would like to see, using other conventionally equipped machines, just what could be accomplished by cranking the hell out of the exciter bulbs and topping it off with pre-amp adjustments. It's just out of curiousity.

Posted by Ray Derrick (Member # 1001) on 10-04-2003, 09:56 AM:

John, Gordon's comment is fact, not speculation.

Say hypothetically you are stuck with an exciter lamp, there is no way to convert the soundhead AND you will never play another silvered soundtrack. Then the best option is to recalibrate the preamp gain using a cyan version of Dolby Tone.

But we all know silvered tracks will hang around long after cyan becomes commonplace. So the only option is not to get caught out in the first place by converting all your remaining soundheads to a red light source as soon as possible.

Using Dolby A on an SR track will not help, it will still badly mis-track. If you get caught then go to Academy Mono as Michael did.

Steve, if you could increase the light output from the exciter by four times (which seems rather unlikely) you would solve the problem for cyan tracks but you are still left with way too much gain for silvered tracks. Red light is the only light source that results in about the same output level for both cyan and silver redeveloped tracks.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-04-2003, 05:51 PM:

John

Italian's print of the movie does not have the Cyan Dye analog soundtrack but a standard soundtrack...

Bye
A

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-04-2003, 06:24 PM:

I hope the thoughts of playing cyan dye analog tracks with white light readers are strictly academic. [Roll Eyes]

As Gordon and Ray note, it's not just a matter of increasing the gain and accepting a higher noise level.

We had been told that cyan dye tracks would be used for all release prints of "Anything Else". Perhaps they felt that the percentage of theatres converted to red readers in some areas of Europe was not sufficient yet.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-04-2003, 08:36 PM:

Huh, Antonio; that's kind of ironic, given that all the US prints were printed at Technicolor's Rome lab.

--jhawk

p.s.: Yes, John, I think all the discussion is academic...

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-05-2003, 04:12 AM:

quote:
Perhaps they felt that the percentage of theatres converted to red readers in some areas of Europe was not sufficient yet.

I don`t know about other European countries, but in Germany the vast majority of cinemas has had red LED readers for the past several years.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 10-05-2003, 05:35 PM:

In my Town I know just 1 of 40 theater that has white light SR reader.

All US copies come from Rome? I do not envy you! [Smile]

Bye!
A