Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: LOTR: Return of the King will have 3 DTS discs

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-08-2003, 01:05 PM:

According to a note received today from DTS, the third "Lord of the Rings" movie will have a three-disk DTS set.

The note says: "We are encouraging exhibitors to trade in their existing DTS-6's for the new XD10 so they will be able to play the movie in DTS."

They are offering a total of $1025 in credits to anyone wanting to trade-in a DTS-6. The program ends 12/31/03.

FWIW, we installed an XD10 in July and I think it's great. [thumbsup]

But DTS has NOT sent me a free jacket yet! [Razz]

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 09-08-2003, 03:46 PM:

Gods and Generals had 3 discs and it wasn't necessary to have a new player. Why the difference here?

Posted by Benjamin J. Kepner (Member # 1241) on 09-08-2003, 03:53 PM:

Probably no intermission, therefore you would lose digital for a minimum of 30secs+ in order to switch disks.

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-08-2003, 04:26 PM:

We have the DTS-6D Digital Playback System (could be the DTS-6DSV 6-Track System, not sure). Could we not leave the trailer disc out, and use all 3 feature discs, as there are 3 cd trays?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-08-2003, 04:29 PM:

Maybe that memo should have said "we are encouraging exhibitors to choose another digital audio format."

I won't be running it in DTS and this isn't the *only* reason...just one more!

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-08-2003, 04:31 PM:

How long is LOTR3? I checked IMDB, but they do not have a time listed yet. It may still be a bit up in the air, they may not have finished it yet.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-08-2003, 04:42 PM:

Manny that is hilarious.

DTS wants to get as many XD10's out in the field as possible. They didn't do that with Gods n' Generals because I don't think the XD10 was ready at that time, and also that movie wasn't something most theater owners would rush right out and buy new hardware for, unless the theater owner was a Civil War buff.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-08-2003, 04:45 PM:

I'll make a slightly better deal. I want a 6D for my home screening room, so I'll offer $1030 for one in good, fully-operational condition.

So, does this mean the film will be longer than 179 minutes? IMDB indicates it will be in 'regular' 5.1 DTS, so why the need for more discs, unless the length is a problem?? Of course, IMDB -could- be wrong. [Big Grin]

It does say it'll be DD EX 6.1 tho. Odd, it seems to me.

Ron Yost

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-08-2003, 05:00 PM:

The screening we did a month ago was just under 4 hours. (without tail credits). [thumbsup]

Running time may change between now and the release date.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-08-2003, 05:11 PM:

Jurassic Park -- got us to buy into DTS

Star Wars Episode I -- got us to buy into SRD-EX. My SA-10 rarely gets used.

So I suppose now DTS figures LOTR III is exciting enough to get us to fork over more cash (and our existing players) for the XD10.

Mind you, I should point out that all of my DTS players are working fine (provided I have discs) but I ask you...how many 3-disc movies are we expecting in the near future?

Oh, yeah...and Lucas thinks Episode III will get us all to buy into d-Cinema.

I sincerely hope to see a strong industry-wide backlash against this kind of pimping.

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-08-2003, 05:26 PM:

You can't blame them for trying. Capitalism at its finest.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-08-2003, 05:26 PM:

Four hours, with no intermission! Gosh! Who could stand that??

Are there that many dyed-in-the-wool LOTR fans out there??

Ron Yost

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-08-2003, 05:34 PM:

Yes Ron, I am a huge fan and will be going for the LoTR marathon. As far as I know, the only intermissions will be between the movies themselves. Extended edition of The Fellowship of the Ring = 3:30 (about), Extended edition ofThe Two Towers = 3:42, Theatrical version of Return of the King = ? (probably about 3 hours). I'm not going to see it at my theater. We have great picture and sound, but we have the old General Cinema style seats, and that is FAR too long to spend in small seats. I am probably going to the new Burbank 16, with big seats, and SR-D EX in all theaters.

Lord of The Rings Marathon

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-08-2003, 05:43 PM:

I doubt if DTS will sell a lot of XD-10 players for "LOTR: The Return of the King" unless there is a technical plus for installing the system, such as a discrete 8 or 10 channel DTS audio track (not to mention the concurrent availability of a cinema processor able to handle the larger channel formats).

This is a dumb question: I assume a 3-drive DTS-6D player will have no problem playing a 3 CD set from "Return of the King" correct?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-08-2003, 05:54 PM:

Yes, the dts6-D (3 drawer) unit will have no problem playing a 3 disc movie. Likewise the dts6-AD (analog/digital combo) unit will have no problem playing a 3 disc movie either. It is the older white faced dts6 (2 drawer) units which cannot handle it without a break in the audio for a disc change and dropout to analog for about a minute somewhere in the middle of the film.

$1025 seems to me to be a rip off. Those units are worth more than that and we're only talking about this one movie! Personally I'd rather go to analog during a "talkie" scene for a minute while a projectionist changed dts discs. Of course there are more options than just that. Don't panic just yet, we're working on it. [Wink]

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-08-2003, 06:01 PM:

That's good to hear Brad. I am sure LoTR will be spending a good deal of time in one of our DTS auditoriums. It would be a real pain to have to switch discs sometime during movie.

So, this new DTS player... "Containing an internal hard drive capable of storing up to 30 feature film soundtracks, the XD10 gives distributors and exhibitors the flexibility of storing multiple languages of one title or multiple titles."

Sounds like you can store all your movies on the hard drive. That would actually be nice, considering the general manager at my theater loves to have us move prints all day long. It would save us the trouble of having to remember to move the DTS discs as well. Interesting idea.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-08-2003, 06:46 PM:

Moving a couple of CD's is trouble?? My, how things have changed. [Smile]

Ron Yost

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-08-2003, 06:48 PM:

It is not odd that Return of the King will be in Dolby Digital EX. The last two were. Of course, that's not a true 6.1 format since it is matrixed.

Also, George thought that we would buy into DLP with Episode II. He thinks he'll have better luck this time?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2003, 07:02 PM:

Of course the other option would be too install a removable scsi hard drive in place of the the second player and from a PC copy the disks to that harddrive and then plug it in
but of course since it is dos the drive would have to be under the old size limit but I am not sure if that affects scsi drives as well as ide

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-08-2003, 07:13 PM:

Don't any of You guys get it: They don't have any of those good old first DTS units left back there at DTS. -Now they want to look inside them to see, what made them run so much better than the next generation [Wink]

If the 10-track model has as many titles to offer as ES/EX, they may just keep it. No other investment has been that little appreciated by the audiences ! But more than 3 hours without a break makes custumers pee in the corners - ergo: Intermission, Ladies & Gents !
Beside of all this, DTS still sounds better, runs better and get better service back-up than competitians.

p.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-08-2003, 07:15 PM:

I can't believe that DTS splits the movie in three disks to encourage DTS6 owner to switch to XD-10. I'd rather think that DTS is encouraging DTS6 owners to switch to XD-10 since LOTR III is a three disk movie (for its lenght)...

Really, for LOTR III there will be no difference in sound with 1993 DTS 6D and 2003 DTS XD-10...

Bye
A

Posted by Torsten Jasper (Member # 1860) on 09-08-2003, 07:20 PM:

quote:
Brad wrote:
Yes, the dts6-D (3 drawer) unit will have no problem playing a 3 disc movie. Likewise the dts6-AD (analog/digital combo) unit will have no problem playing a 3 disc movie either.

Thats just right!
Do you have any triple features of LOTR in your cinemas?
We do and these are mostly sold out! Just crazy.
Greetings...
T. J.

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-08-2003, 07:43 PM:

quote:
Moving a couple of CD's is trouble?? My, how things have changed.

Ron Yost

It's obviously not any trouble, it's just sometimes one of us will forget, and a show or two will be played in Dolby SR instead of DTS. Happens about once a week.

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 09-08-2003, 08:13 PM:

If the movie is really close to 4 hours long then the simple solution is just to stick a home-made intermission in and change the discs at that time.
As a matter of policy I put an intermission in any 4 hour movie that does not come with one. The audience needs a break.... and besides I need to sell some concessions. [Wink]

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-08-2003, 08:18 PM:

3 discs? How much longer is Return of the King supposed to be compared to the others? If I remember, the 3rd book was the shortest anyhow. Is this just a stunt on behalf of DTS to get people to buy the XD-10? Are those 3 CD's gonna be full to the brim with data that 3 discs are needed? I guess the only thing that worries me is if the film plays in one of our houses with DTS-6. Actually, out of our 4 DTS-6D houses, only one of them has 3 fully functional drives. I've had it noted for months with nothing done about it. If we run this in a DTS house, which are our best houses, oh boy. Let's just hope that either we get those drives, or put it in our SR-D and SDDS houses opening weekend. Or, if it's possible, get some XD-10's. Of course, that will NEVER happen at our place. [Big Grin]

I did think of something. How about if the info on the 3 combined could be put on 2 discs, could one make a custom disc with the .aud files re-arranged onto 2 discs?

AJG

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-08-2003, 08:55 PM:

quote:
As a matter of policy I put an intermission in any 4 hour movie that does not come with one.

Um...no...

I totally understand your logic but, all the same, a deal is a deal. You agree to play the movie the way the studio made it -- in this case, without an intermission -- or else don't play it at all.

And don't forget...they are watching you... [eyes]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-08-2003, 09:46 PM:

I remember reading reviews of the second film, where people that were familiar with the books were saying that the second film ended without covering the end of the book. So I would guess that the third film has to cover the end of the second book, and then the third book. Maybe that is why it is so long. Or maybe they just put a long cartoon on the head of it. [Big Grin]

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-08-2003, 10:42 PM:

quote:
And don't forget...they are watching you...

If only that were the case. I would love it if the studios watched the presentations in theaters and went after them when the presentations were poor.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-08-2003, 10:49 PM:

I question if they could stop an intermission since any theatre with a tower would require one and in the UK in particular that is the norm so one could insist that they are given the same treatment as other international exhibitors of the the "global exhibition economy" and have one as well
Note they even provide intermission tags and specify where the intermission is placed

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-08-2003, 10:59 PM:

Each disk holds 100 minutes worth of sound, right? So if the program includes 3 or 4 trailers plus all the DTS and THX snipes, if the movie is anything over about 190 minutes then three disks would be required.

I think NATO should forget about the trailer sound volume battle -- which they're losing anyway -- and figure out a way to make it "standard practice" that any movie 150 minutes or more must have an intermission.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-08-2003, 11:36 PM:

Gord I have to respectfully disagree with your argument.

First of all, contracts can be different between a studio and various theatres. If a theatre must -- out of technical necessity -- have an intermission then that is one thing. On the other hand, theatres that are capably equipped to exhibit the movie without interruption ought to honor their agreement and play the film that way unless they have obtained proper approval to program an intermission.

And, to reiterate my first statement, just because the studio permits an intermission in one case would not necessarily make it a free-for-all.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-08-2003, 11:53 PM:

We had a theatre in ashboro, N.C. that has since been torn down and a new one built in its place that will be opening soon. The old theatre ran into problems with getting the last two Rings picture because the theatre used Christie Mini winds. That required the need for an intermission. I think DTS has upset some Exhibitors because a lot of them bought up the older DTS units in bulk quanities with the Idea that they would continue supporting them.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-09-2003, 01:37 AM:

quote:
Don't any of You guys get it: They don't have any of those good old first DTS units left back there at DTS. -Now they want to look inside them to see, what made them run so much better than the next generation

From what I've seen, that's certainly the case. The Carmike 8 here has been open for over 9 years and the two original DTS units it opened with in 1994 have not had any problems. They have a 3rd 2-drive unit on #7 that is even older than the ones on screens #4 and #5 (and that one doesn't even have the DTS logo on it; just plain letters). Any glitches they've had, such as disc drive failures have been confined to the DTS-6D players.

I really hope the 3 disc thing is just a rumor. It would suck to have to put the film in smaller houses with 6D players just to avoid having to change out discs during the show.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-09-2003, 01:42 AM:

Shouldn`t it be possible to play the movie on a dts-6 without dropping to analog? In my experience, the dts-6 doesn`t mind when you take an idle CD out while it is playing. So it should be possible to take out the first disc while the second is playing and put in the third into the A drive, or am I wrong?

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-09-2003, 01:48 AM:

Michael, you just came up with a new experiment for me when no one shows up for Spy Kids in this dead part of the year at our place! [Big Grin]

AJG

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-09-2003, 01:56 AM:

I think everyone here is being incredibly unfair to DTS, jumping to all kinds of conclusions based on a rumor. If LotR: Return of the King is over the limit for two discs it HAS to be three discs, DTS can't wave a magic wand and make it fit on two, only Peter Jackson can do that by cutting the movie down. If New Line doesn't want to program an intermission unless technicaly required then there is nothing DTS can do about that either.

Did it ever occur to anyone that DTS is just trying to make sure no one gets caught with their pants down? Putting out the info early enough for exhibitors to schedule sound upgrades if they decide to go that route?

We'll never know now but I wonder how much bitching and moaning there would have been if all those theatres with only two drawer units opened their film cans on December 16th only to discover three discs.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 02:51 AM:

I know for a fact that if you take one of the discs out, the unit will drop out of dts and reload the disc that is still in the other drive. You can't interchange the discs and expect it to keep working while you swap the discs.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-09-2003, 09:52 AM:

Well, I guess there goes my experiment Darryl. I'm not mad at DTS really, as I still think they have the superior format. If the movie actually warrants 3 discs, so be it. Awesome! However, the fact that they coincide a trade in for the XD-10 with the release of a 3 disc film seemed fishy. Of course, it'd be nice to have an XD-10 instead of the 6. Well, at least based on what I've read, the XD-10 is a nice little unit.

AJG

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-09-2003, 10:46 AM:

quote:
coincide a trade in for the XD-10 with the release of a 3 disc film seemed fishy

Oh come on...they're just marketing. They developed a new product and they're trying to sell it. At least they made sure it works before they started selling it, unlike many computer software manufacturers.

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 09-09-2003, 10:51 AM:

Darryl, I believe you are wrong.

I have a DTS 6 and am able to swap one disc while the other is running. This was the way that Gods and Generals was done - however the swap occurred while the blank film and intermission music was running in the other drive.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-09-2003, 11:23 AM:

Distribution has been allowing intermissions to be inserted in films in foreign markets for decades. And as Gordon says, they even indicate where to put them. Intermissions in films overseas are not allowed because of equipment limitations but because in these countries intermissions are culturally demanded.

Seems to me American exhibitors and their audiences should be treated with the same flexibility (and respect). The exhibitor knows his audience. He should be able to say, "listen, I just cannot subject my patrons to a 4 hour movie without a break." My demographics include a large number of elderly. I know my audience and even 3 hours is a long time for many of them to sit without a break. If the people in dozens of other countries can get a potty break, then I should be able to do the same for my people. The studios aren't telling every theatre in India that either they play a 4 hour movie without a break or they don't play it at all -- if they demanded that, they would loose an awful lot of screens.

I certainly understand that the integrity of the filmmaker's work is a top priority, but if an intermission doesn't destroy the artistic integrity for millions of people overseas, then I can't see how it will over here. But of course we all understand that what ALWAYS tops artistic integrity in Hollywood is MONEY. If exhibition said in one unison voice, "we won't play any picture longer than two and a half hours if we are not allowed to put in an intermission".....how fast do you think those intermission snips would be shipped out from the studios?! FexEx overnight no doubt.

And Marty is right -- since when does distribution care about presentation quality? If they did, they wouldn't allow their product to play half the theatres in the outer boroughs of NYC. Make no mistake, LOTR will play in grind houses that used to be relegated to play underbelly runs long after a title moved out of the classy first runs, but today these same vermin infested holes get to open day and date with the very best first run flagship theatres. I don't think an intermission is nearly as much an assault on a film's integrity as is a theatre with a cropped screen, two channel front/rear sound, a xenon bulb putting out 1/3rd its light and narrow seats that have springs sticking you in the ass.

Concern for presentation quality doesn't prevent them from sticking huge CAP dots all over the print in full sight of the audience.

Intermissions are the least of the distribution's worries when it comes to demanding quality presentation.

Frank

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-09-2003, 12:59 PM:

To clarify, DTS has been offering the trade in deal on the DTS-6 unit ever since the XD-10 became commercially available. This isn't something they just started for LotR: Return of the King.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 09-09-2003, 01:31 PM:

quote:
I know for a fact that if you take one of the discs out, the unit will drop out of dts and reload the disc that is still in the other drive. You can't interchange the discs and expect it to keep working while you swap the discs.

The DTS6D units are almost always switching back and forth between the two discs while the movie is going. You can watch it. These discs don't play like a cd with all the information in order. They play like a hard drive with pieces placed in a numeric order that makes for the quickest scanning with the least amount of reader movement during a long action heavy sequence.

Because of this, if you take out one disc, you very well may be taking out the disc that the very next bit of explosion is stored on. For the most efficiency, both discs must be booted at all times. To remove one, causes the machine to reboot and find the missing disc.

My experience confirms that if you eject one disc, the machine trys to reboot until it finds the second disc.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-09-2003, 01:38 PM:

quote:
The DTS6 units are almost always switching back and forth between the two discs while the movie is going. You can watch it. These discs don't play like a cd with all the information in order. They play like a hard drive with pieces placed in a numeric order that makes for the quickest scanning with the least amount of reader movement during a long action heavy sequence.

The disks contain a file for each REEL and any switching back and forth would be if the reels were mixed between the two disks due to time considerations. If your machine is "switching back and forth" during individual reels, you've got a problem.

And, whether the action is heavy or it's just dialogue or even "silence" makes no difference. It's all just ones and zeroes.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 09-09-2003, 01:43 PM:

This board continually makes me wonder where some of the information given at out theatre is obtained from. Hmmm.

So, perhaps the green light lighting up isn't really switching? I always assumed it was like a computer hard drive light. When that drive was reading... it lights up. Is it rather that both discs are always being read because of the timecode?

If so, that would still be the reason why you can't eject discs if both are needed to be sequenced with the timecode.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-09-2003, 02:27 PM:

On rebooting:

Darryl is correct that normally, a DTS-6D will reboot whenever any CDROM drive is ejected. This is a software feature, however, it is not a hardware feature of the box.

It's quite plausible to believe that ROTK will include a special DTS.EXE that does not reboot-on-eject, in order to facilitate disc swapping, should that be necessary.

--jhawk

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-09-2003, 02:36 PM:

quote:
It's quite plausible to believe that ROTK will include a special DTS.EXE that does not reboot-on-eject, in order to facilitate disc swapping, should that be necessary.

I agree, THAT's the way dts should be handling this. So long as they make sure that the reels are in order on the A, B, C discs and they filled the B disc as full as they could, this would be very easy. That would give the theaters a solid hour and a half to do the disc swap from A to C in and since 3 discs total roughly 5 hours of running time there is no reason not to put the reels in order.

Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 09-09-2003, 03:13 PM:

I know for a fact that there was a thread hear where people were mad that DTS didn't install a hard drive. Now everyone seems mad that they have one.

On the reboot issue, I am almost sure that reboot takes place on the close of the drive. Not that that makes a big difference.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-09-2003, 04:32 PM:

The dts-6D constantly monitors all three drives even though the files are not fragmented across both discs but organized in reel files like Mike said.

However, in my experience the A drive on the dts-6 goes to sleep once it is done playing the first half of the movie.
Or maybe it has something to do with the type of drive?
Most of my dts-6 are upgraded for TEAC drives, but I have a few which still have the Toshiba.
I haven`t had time to check yet, but maybe those drives are the old Toshiba and the ones which are constantly accessing the CDs are the TEAC.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-09-2003, 05:04 PM:

Isn't DTS flatly saying in their note that current cd-based devices won't be able to handle this show, tho? That's how I read it. Seems the decisions have already been made on their end. [Confused]

Ron Yost

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-09-2003, 05:10 PM:

Since I'm the only one that has run this picture. From all these posts I'm going to run it SRD or SDDS, because of all of the DTS stuff. The New York critics will be seeing this in SRD only. [thumbsup]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-09-2003, 05:17 PM:

Ron: No, DTS is saying that their discontinued, obsolete DTS-6 player (2-drive), which they have not sold for years, cannot handle this movie. They have made no such statement about the DTS-6D, the current model 3-drive player.

Let's be careful what we spread.

--jhawk

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-09-2003, 05:35 PM:

In my experience TEAC's leds are continuously flashing all toghether. But the driver from wich the player is reading flashes brighter. I do not think that the player is accessing all three cds when playing.

John,

You mean that DTS6 canno handle this film without an intermission or loosing few moments of digital during disks swap....

Bye
A

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-09-2003, 06:20 PM:

Ah, that's good .. I guess. Thank you, and carry on. [Smile]

Ron Yost

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-09-2003, 06:44 PM:

Going back to Brad's method for checking DTS CDs via computer, I wonder if one could hack the DTS.EXE and arrange the reel number .aud files in such a way on custom burned CDs so the DTS-6 player wouldn't reboot when discs were swapped?

quote:
I know for a fact that there was a thread hear where people were mad that DTS didn't install a hard drive. Now everyone seems mad that they have one.

I don't think people are mad the XD-10 has a hard drive. The thing that irks me is the low trade in bonus for switching a DTS-6 player for a new XD-10 unit without any movies that truly take advantage of the XD-10's capablities. The XD-10 really seems like a marvelous unit. But DTS should have created a new kind of scaleable cinema processor to twin with this machine or worked with a company like Panastereo to get such a thing developed. As far as I can tell at this point, the 8 and 10 channel (or more) capability of the XD-10 may never get used. We sure aren't seeing any 10 channel movies being announced.

What manager or district manager is going to be able to convince his higher ups to upgrade just so "Return of the King" will play all the way through in DTS? My feeling is a lot of DTS-equipped houses will have 2/3 of the movie playing in digital and let the rest play in optical --or just run it in optical only (very likely in a lot of places).

Is it simple to swap a DTS-6 in a large auditorium booth rack with a DTS-6D from another house? Aren't there some snags from these machines being configured to particular cinema processor connections? Our Carmike's DTS-6 machines are paired with Dolby CP-65 processors, whereas all the other units are hooked up to Smart CPs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-09-2003, 06:50 PM:

Bear in mind if the movie isn't too long, it is entirely possible that the 3 cds from dts could be copied to a hard drive, trailers and unnecessary bs deleted, then reburned onto 2 700MB discs. Dts only uses 650MB discs, so even right there we have an unnecessary limitation. This would by all means be the simplest and most cost effective solution...but again it all depends on the length of the film. Using this idea, the movie could be 3 hours 35 minutes, assuming the length of each reel worked out nicely.

Does anyone have an estimated running time for this yet?

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 06:57 PM:

here is the way it works. The CD-Roms run continuously until you remove a disk. What I mean is this. They continue to spin even though no information is being read off of it. That is why the two green led's stay lit to show that both drives ore working with a disk in them. Then the led's have a distinct flash of brightnes when a disk is being read. If you look at one drive you will notice a lot of flashing. If you look at the other drive you will see an occasional flash. That is the system making sure that the disk is still there and it is the same one.

I ran Gods and Generals but I had split the film at intermission to allow the custmers an extra couple of minutes of intermission and to allow the disk change. So I do not know for a fact that the disk stayed running. But the exe file could have told the unit to allow a disk swap but probably only if you had the upgraded Rom drives not the Caddy drives.

If you remove a disk the other drive will revert back to booting up thinking that another disk was incerted. It will reboot its self until it starts to play again even without the second disk.

That's the way it has been since I ran Jurrasic Park in 94.

As far as the caddys they still spinned the disk you just didn't see the disk activity light stay on continuouse. The led only blinked when information was being read.

as far as the disk swapping back and forth at reel changes. This can occure if during the processing phase it is detemined that more information can be stored on a disk based on the size of each reel file. That is what they did with the Titanic disks.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-09-2003, 07:39 PM:

quote:
I know for a fact that there was a thread hear where people were mad that DTS didn't install a hard drive. Now everyone seems mad that they have one.

The hard drive doesn't upset me. I personally don't find it enough of an attraction to upgrade but I'm certainly not mad about it.

I have mixed feelings about DTS. I admired the combination of reliability, ease-of-use and affordability. Technically, DTS has proven to be the most reliable digital audio system. That's my experience. My DTS-6 units (2-drawer) are still working fine; same is true for my 6D units. I have been very happy with their performance technically.

Unfortunately -- as many users have reported -- it is annoying to have this conceptually wonderful system just sitting there doing nothing due to apparent problems with getting discs to ship out simultaneously with the prints. That's a serious problem that has not been solved in nearly ten years since implementation.

After seeing nearly every one of our movies open with analog sound, we finally decided to upgrade to Dolby Digital. The DTS units have been moved over to the graveyard theatres and, quite often, a movie will final without ever playing in DTS. It's disgusting.

Icing on the Cake: DTS only has one good logo trailer (DTS Flying Disc) and that one is nearly a decade old. The alternative trailer (Sonic Landscape) is old too and, well, it just plain sucked even when it was new.

So you see -- It isn't the hard drive that upsets me. It's not that at all.

From a somewhat broader perspective, what upsets me most is an overall trend on the part of the audio industry (apparently acting in cahoots with the distributors) to force constant upgrading. Six-channel digital sound has been a great benefit to the exhibition industry. Adding a back surround channel did not deliver the implied (fiscal) impact. I don't believe it was worth the expense and trouble that went into the EX upgrade. For that matter, the aesthetic value of the EX channel is debatable, in my opinion.

Finally, let me ask you this: Do we really need 10 channels?

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-09-2003, 07:54 PM:

Hi all,

To clarify a couple of points:

DTS units with 3 drives (the DTS-6D and DTS-6AD) will have no trouble with a 3 disc release, other than not having a free drive for the trailer subscription disc. The only unit that will be unable to play a 3 disc film properly is the discontinued DTS-6.

It really does appear as if Return of the King will require 3 DTS discs due to running time. If we can fit it onto a 2-disc set, we will. As a heads up, the extended versions of Fellowship and Two Towers are also likely to be 3-disc sets.

While an .exe fix could be used to prevent rebooting the player while swapping discs on the fly, there would still be a DTS dropout of a considerable amount of time while the player scanned the header info in the new disc, which turns out to be not so easy to fix with an .exe hack. Thus our recommendation that theaters still using the 2-drive units take advantage of the rebate offer on the XD-10.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 08:30 PM:

Right but there are a lot of old two drawer dts units out there that still work good and to justify spending the money to cover the cost after rebate is some what unjust for just one 3 disk movie. Not saying there is anything wrong with the new units.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-09-2003, 08:51 PM:

There are 99 minute recordable CDs out there. If you can get your computer burner to use them, and the DTS unit to play them, you may be able to combine the 3 discs down to 2. Nero burner software can "overburn" a CDR, and as Brad said you could always leave off R14T5 (the trailer reel).

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-09-2003, 08:54 PM:

What happens if there is ever a 14-reel movie?

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-09-2003, 09:01 PM:

I believe that Karen once said that if there was a reel 14, it would be time coded with 15 hour code, and the file on the disc would be R15T5. Reel 15 would be R16T5, and so on.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 09:02 PM:

then invest in dolby digital and run it in that. [Smile]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-09-2003, 09:10 PM:

Thanks, Daniel, for offering us some hard solid data!

Bruce suggests that reel 15 would be R16T5. Please remember that the DTS format only allows 4 bits for reel numbers, with reel 0 being overloaded to indicate the TC is a serial number and not a real timecode. So after using R15, DTS would need to start over with a different serial number and R1.

I don't think overburning is likely to be the solution chosen. I don't think it works well with mass-produced CDs, and I doubt it gains enough space.

--jhawk

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-09-2003, 09:35 PM:

Welcome to the forum, Daniel.

[ 09-10-2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Mike Blakesley ]

Posted by Torsten Jasper (Member # 1860) on 09-09-2003, 09:55 PM:

Manny wrote
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You agree to play the movie the way the studio made it -- in this case, without an intermission -- or else don't play it at all.
And don't forget...they are watching you...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
An intermission is an intermission, or how big is your bladder? [Smile]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-09-2003, 10:55 PM:

There ARE 99 minute CDs out there, but not every player can play them. It is unkown if the CD drives in an old DTS unit could handle such a disc.

DTS has been offering a rebate for awhile, right? Didn't they say they'd do it for a year. My memory is a little fuzzy on this. Is the amount of that rebate different than this one?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-09-2003, 11:16 PM:

quote:
There are 99 minute recordable CDs out there. If you can get your computer burner to use them, and the DTS unit to play them...

Well, that's one of the snags. The original Toshiba SCSI caddy drives are what, 2X speed? We're talking 1993 CD technology here. Most newer computers don't burn at speeds any slower than 16X or 32X.

Most theaters won't be able to pony up the bucks for a XD-10 unit (what do these things cost anyway?) in spite of the rebate offer. I don't know if one can swap a 6D unit from one auditorium for a DTS-6 in another. So it looks like those with the 2 drive units are just going to have to find a quiet place in the movie to switch out discs during the show (and do it like clockwork every show if they care to have their customers hear the whole movie in DTS).

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 11:26 PM:

there is an option if you can obtain one and if you already have the teac drives or you can order the three drive upgrade kits for the 6d's. For two drive I believe you will also need a three drive cable for the hook up but one could just add a drive to the two drive systems. That is something I am going to look into possably having done. I have a two drive upgrade kit that I still have not installed into our only caddy style DTS 6 unit that is working fine with currently no problems.

Actually you can swap the two units. You may have to make some changes to the automation conections from the dts unit.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-09-2003, 11:30 PM:

That's an interesting point about the 99 minute cds. Has anyone considered the idea of taking the 3 discs, stripping the trailers from them and then burning them onto two 99 minute cds...but playing them back on a 2 drawer dts unit that has the NEW Teac drive upgrades? Buying an upgrade kit for an older unit would be infinitely cheaper, plus it would give them 2 backup drives that could be used on other players.

I'll have to burn a disc on a 99 minute cd and see if the Teac drives can take it. While I'm at it I'll try it on an older, original "caddy" 2X system and report back. Bobby is correct in saying that most theaters will not pay for the upgrade to an XD-10 to be able to play this one movie. (Fellowship and Towers are rumored to have a limited number of prints made anyway, so this isn't too much of a consideration.)

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 11:33 PM:

Brad,

I tried burning some DTS disk and running the copies in the caddy style units and I could not get them to load the disk and that was using the standard 80minute standard CD-R's

Posted by Robert D. LaValley (Member # 1867) on 09-09-2003, 11:34 PM:

Ehhhhh just play it with an exciter bulb system.. make things interesting.. Why go forward when you can go back to mono..*laughs* OR you could get a digital recorder, go see the movie at a theatre you know has the new DTS unit, then record the movie, and play back the recording on a loud sterio each show.. hey it might look like a badly dubbed movie at times but it could be fun!!

I'm kidding with all this of coarse...

Seriously though, with all the small ma and pa theatres that just saved up their nickles and dimes to get the 6d unit, DTS should at least give a little better of a deal or at least the jacket to go with it.. I had to BUY mine and it was 200 bucks!! the jacket that is..not the unit..

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-09-2003, 11:38 PM:

I hope that Jacket came with a stereo system in the lining. [Big Grin]

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 09-10-2003, 01:38 AM:

quote:
Fellowship and Towers are rumored to have a limited number of prints made anyway, so this isn't too much of a consideration.

This one I do know... straight from New Line's mouth(so to speak... lol)

100 prints to the top 100 markets in the US. I suspect Tinseltown will be the only theatre in Oklahoma to get prints.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-10-2003, 02:03 AM:

quote:
Bobby is correct in saying that most theaters will not pay for the upgrade to an XD-10 to be able to play this one movie.

Well sure, but you DO get to keep the unit for all the movies to come.

The best thing about it is not having to futz with the disks...they load onto the hard drive and then they go right back in the can.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-10-2003, 02:06 AM:

quote:
Well sure, but you DO get to keep the unit for all the movies to come.

Ok, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here since I notice a dts6 2 drawer player in your picture. Would YOU trade in your existing player which will also continue to "play all the movies to come" at great expense if there was a more reasonably priced way of using your current unit for this film?

Also, I think there are plenty of people who would easily pay $1500 for a fully working 2 drawer system. As such, why not buy an XD-10 flat out and sell your existing player for $1500 to a theater that is strapped for cash and could really benefit from such a well priced system? Anyone considering the tradeup may want to give the "equipment for sale" forum a shot first. I can easily see where that would be a "win win" situation for both parties. [Wink]

Posted by Jim Leko (Member # 1287) on 09-10-2003, 02:28 AM:

quote:
As such, why not buy an XD-10 flat out and sell your existing player for $1500 to a theater that is strapped for cash and could really benefit from such a well priced system?

Just out of curiosity, how much is a XD-10 flat out?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-10-2003, 02:29 AM:

I need to update my picture....I DID trade that unit in. We bought an XD10 from John Eickhof, who gave me a very good price on it and installed it for free during a routine service visit.

The old unit was installed in '95 and has worked fine, but in the last 6 months it had been dropping into analog quite often at various random times, and rebooting by itself for no reason. (I had been blaming timecode, but replacing a reel here and there did not cure it so I suppose the drive(s) were wearing out.)

We decided to do the upgrade rather than try to fix it because I figured it's going to have to be replaced SOMEDAY anyway and that rebate probably won't be around forever. (Although I admit to being a little frosted that the rebate is MORE now than it was when we bought the thing.)

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-10-2003, 05:43 AM:

Very short version:

LOTR3 will give trouble on 2-drawer systems only, when played without intermission. With disc chance during intermission, no problems at all. -Right or wrong ?

Per

Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 09-10-2003, 08:34 AM:

Two words: dolby digital [Big Grin]

We will be playing it in SDDS though (we have it on all screens), and besides the fact that most everyone here doesn't like it, it is the most reliable for us.

As for the hacks, it would work. But as far as the one drive going to sleep, I don't know if that's the case. I'm sure that all 3 drives are constant scanning, ready for a change, even if the CD is done, it's just logical. The 99 minute CD's probably don't work b/c the software is written to accept DTS disks and DTS disks only. Does anyone know where I can find decent information about the DTS disk format, I'd like to play around with this, thanks. [beer]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-10-2003, 11:15 AM:

DTS discs are just plain old CD-ROMs. The small DTS.EXE program is in the root, and the audio files are in the DTS subdir, along with a listing of what is in the trailer file. The length of the disc (or what speed it was recorded at) has nothing to do with how a DTS disc is layed out. The problem with 99 minute discs is that some players can't move the read head far enough into the center to play the bigining of the disc.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-10-2003, 12:30 PM:

The toshiba 2x drives would not load the CD-rom copy that we had but it would work on the teac drives. You would think that it would work but it wouldn't.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-10-2003, 12:34 PM:

Darryl

I once tried a regular CDR on my old two drives SCSI 2x Caddy drives player (1993) with absolutely no problems.

However I just think that if DTS says that there could be some problems (swapping the disk at half the movie loosing 60 second of digital sound) playing a 2003 movie in a 1993 piece of technology can be considered normal... I would consider myself lucky that I can still use this 1993 piece of technology and put a "Digital Sound" plate out of my old cinema's door as the new megaplex down the street... [Smile]

Bye
A

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-10-2003, 12:40 PM:

who knows what the deal was on that. All I know right now is that nothing is going to get changed as far as the dts units exchanged for money of the newer models. I am hoping that we can work something out in reguards to the things I mentioned in another post.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-10-2003, 01:13 PM:

$1,500 for an ancient computer, with two non-obtanium, well-used, SCSI CD drives that could die, permanently, at -any moment-?? I don't think so. Not this old po(o)p. DD is looking more attractive all the time, and there's no darned discs to fiddle with. [Smile]

This old, near worn-out electronic stuff is waaaaaay overvalued, IMHO. 10-20% on the dollar of new-value is more like it.

Ron Yost

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 09-10-2003, 05:13 PM:

While I won't discount the cost of adding a new DTS XD10 unit, wouldn't this be an excellent opportunity to shuffle your older DTS units to one of your other screens, and have the shiny new XD10 in your primary screen that you'll be playing LOTR in?

Businesses do this all the time with their computer equipment. New machines replace older machines which replace obsolete machines which are given away (if possible).

I don't know what the sticker price for the XD10 is, but if you look at the cost amortized over the usable lifetime of the product, the impact may not hurt so much. Perhaps upcoming movies will not require 3 discs, but it's a pretty good bet that the other features offered by the new unit will be utilized in some way in the future.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-10-2003, 05:25 PM:

I wish you could tell our theatre to get new XD-10's to replace our 4 DTS-6's. This way, we could have digital sound on all 14 screens. As it stands now, we still have 3 houses that lack digital sound. Something tells me we will never get the XD-10. [Frown]

AJG

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-10-2003, 06:26 PM:

quote:
Two words: dolby digital

When your theater already has DTS on every screen? You're talking the same difference as just buying a new XD-10 unit. At least with the XD-10, you can build the DTS flying disc snipe into the print without worrying about changing it.

Not to poo poo the DD idea completely, but the only way the theater here would put in a DD unit would be in a rollaround cart. Then you have the issue of installing numerous penthouse or basement readers and those rack plug in thingies that make the rollaround cart a neat idea.

quote:
$1,500 for an ancient computer, with two non-obtanium, well-used, SCSI CD drives that could die, permanently, at -any moment-?? I don't think so. Not this old po(o)p.

Very inaccurate analogy. Even when DTS-6 players were newly introduced, the motherboards were already aging and cheap technology. The first DTS-6 players had Intel 386 chips for the CPU. The !486 chip was already old, Pentium 60MHz and 66MHz computers were widely available with the 100MHz P1 fixing to ship. The proprietary boards and connections in the unit are what made the system expensive. That $3,500 introductory price quickly went up to $5,900.

My best guess (without looking up anything) is somewhere around 6,000 or so DTS-6 units were sold before the introduction of the 6D. That's a lot of players. And I would bet a fairly high percentage of those units are still working. I think the significant installed base of still-operational DTS-6 machines is enough of a marketing issue that New Line Cinema should think about putting an intermission in "Return of the King."

The biggest factor that cries out for an intermission is a plea of mercy for our bladders. Has Peter Jackson been to a movie lately? Does he not know many audience members will be drinking oil-drum sized sodas while his movie plays? C'mon let's be reasonable here! If I am facing a movie running over 3 hours in length, I have a tough choice to make. Buy a soda and have to piss before the movie is through or just not buy anything at all. Dude, f**king buy a clue!

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-10-2003, 07:05 PM:

Did anybody mention the list price of this new XD 10 thing ?

Per

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-10-2003, 08:52 PM:

List price on the XD-10 is $6,950.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 09-11-2003, 12:25 AM:

quote:
Has Peter Jackson been to a movie lately? Does he not know many audience members will be drinking oil-drum sized sodas while his movie plays?

That makes me think of the Animaniacs episode where whacko got an extra large coke at the movie theatre. He came in, sat in the middle, after much effort and excuse me pardon mes, and sucked the thing down in seconds. He then had an epiphony that he had to pee. So, back to the excuse me pardon me I've got to potty thing, and the chase for a bathroom is on. From the lobby to the gas station down the street("Can I use your potty?" "Ok, but it hasn't been cleaned in weeks." "That's ok, I've got to potty." "WELL I CAN'T POTTY IN THERE!!!!" Finally he pottys and excuse me pardon mes back to his seat.

As many times as I get asked "Where are your bathrooms?" That skit gets funnier and more relvant to me every day.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-11-2003, 09:11 AM:

When Peter Jackson is watching the film in his screening room, he can just have the film stoped untill he gets back. He doesn't understand that theaters don't do that for everyone.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-11-2003, 10:43 AM:

He understands, he just doesn't care. Preservation of his "Vision" is all important. [fu]

Well, don't stand for it .. INSIST on an Intermission. [Big Grin]

Ron Yost

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-11-2003, 10:48 AM:

Maybe it's New Line and not Peter Jackson that dictates whether there will be an intermission.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 09-11-2003, 10:59 AM:

quote:
Per on Page 6 wrote: LOTR3 will give trouble on 2-drawer systems only, when played without intermission. With disc chance during intermission, no problems at all. -Right or wrong ?

Depends if the files for each reel are in order.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-11-2003, 01:44 PM:

Michael, there would be no need for dts to jumble the order of reels for LOTR3. The capacity on 3 discs is far above and beyond how long it could possibly be.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-11-2003, 04:47 PM:

"Potty Emergency" is the only Animaniacs episode I've seen. It's hilarious. Maybe we should run it at the start of LOTR 3.

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-11-2003, 05:33 PM:

New Line doesn't care, all that's important is their "vision" of their bottom-line. There .. that better?? [Smile]

Ron Yost

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-11-2003, 05:45 PM:

I don't see how an intermission should make any difference to anyone's vision OR bottom line. Except maybe the theatres, who might have to lose that 1:00 AM show. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 09-11-2003, 06:32 PM:

Special offer or not - Happy with DTS or not
I have never ever yet thrown away anything, that works, and I am not going to this time either.
Once again: Ask around the cinema once and a while (during intermission, maybe [Big Grin]

) If one out of a thousand has noticed the seventh channel, You're lucky. Next step will not be selling more tickets.

Per

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 09-11-2003, 08:10 PM:

I'm kidding, Mike. Lame tho it was. [Smile]

The extra concession sales with an intermission might, indeed, help make up a little for lost shows, if this film turns out to be well over three hours. I'm guessing it won't, tho I have -nothing- to base that on, other than NewLine's desire to make extended versions of LOTR 1 and 2 to rake in more cash. As long as it sells, why not? I don't think they'll blow the whole wad in December. I wouldn't. Always leave 'em wanting more! [Big Grin]

Ron Yost

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 09-11-2003, 09:49 PM:

I have Potty Emmergency on one of my archive videos. It's Great! The cup Wakko sucks down is half as tall as he is and reads "Abyss Boy" on the side!

Ahhh. If any animated tv program ever deserved a DVD set it was this.
I miss the Animaniacs.

Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 09-11-2003, 10:20 PM:

It'd be great if WB would put that on 35 mil so theatre's could play it. I think it would be great introducing all the shows.

I love Animaniacs and Tiny Toons. Those two and all the original Loony Tunes need to be on DVD really bad!

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-12-2003, 07:21 AM:

Just for the record, I finally found some time at night without an audience do try the ejecting thing on the dts-6, and it did not work. Just as some here had predicted.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 09-12-2003, 12:48 PM:

quote:
Once again: Ask around the cinema once and a while (during intermission, maybe ) If one out of a thousand has noticed the seventh channel, You're lucky. Next step will not be selling more tickets.

Of course they don't, but it's supposed to be subtle. If you ask, I'd bet they don't even notice 3 channels or 5 channels. Want to go back to mono if they don't notice? And judging from my experiences when things go wrong, people don't even notice when channels are completely missing.

But that's not the point. There's a subconscious effect that the overall presentation and channel distribution has on the audience. This is especially true as sound mixers have attempted to create a sound field, rather than having discrete sounds emanating from particular speakers, as they did in the 1950s-60s. And when it's done properly it makes a difference, although out of all the additions to cinema sound in the last 20 years, ES/EX is probably the most subtle.

Would I spend money on ES/EX if I wasn't upgrading anyway? Definitely not. But if I had another reason to upgrade the sound or if I were building a new screen, I would definitely put in that channel.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-22-2003, 01:01 AM:

Just a reminder, for those of you without the budget to upgrade to the XD-10 and have a 2 drawer dts player, the "how to" upgrade page is now in the public section of the front page of this website, or can be accessed here.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 11-22-2003, 10:50 AM:

A question for Brad:
If someone upgraded their 2 drawer unit some time ago, and used just the two drive up grade, can they now get a thire drive, and a new SCSI cable, and upgrade to three drives?

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 11-22-2003, 01:50 PM:

I just skimmed the "add a 3rd player" how to and didn't see any mention of price. What's the ball park for one of those 3 player upgrade kits?

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 11-22-2003, 02:42 PM:

So, If I get 3 discs with my copy, I should be ok since my DTS system has 3 drives correct?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-22-2003, 03:43 PM:

quote:
If someone upgraded their 2 drawer unit some time ago, and used just the two drive up grade, can they now get a thire drive, and a new SCSI cable, and upgrade to three drives?

The answer is yes. Just follow the rest of the instructions and purchase an identical drive from the internet. Take the cover off of your player and get the brand and model number and do a google search to find one.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 11-22-2003, 09:58 PM:

I found out tonight that LOTR:III is approx 3h 50 min with credits...not previews.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-22-2003, 11:23 PM:

Where did you get this information? That is not what I have been hearing. I keep hearing 3h 30m 'ish running times.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2003, 11:43 PM:

Actually I think its pretty nice that DTS has offered any trade in at all and you can save another $750.00 U.S. by re-using your present time code reader and not ordering a new one with the XD-10. I can't remember Dolby, Ultra Stereo, or Smart offering any trade in for their older equipment against new stuff.

Those that don't have three drawers units can have three drawers by following the instructions on this site for adding a third drawer to their two drawer units. Its very easy to do.

Our first XD-10 out of the box didn't work. The display screen hung on Initalizing..... and never finished booting up. DTS reccomended re-seating all the connectors inside and that took care of the problem. We have 5 XD-10's going in right after Thanksgiving.

After you've used an XD-10 you'll never want to use anything else [thumbsup]

. Its a very, very slick unit and I'm looking foreword to networking 4 of them early next year.

Brad,
If you based the net value of a DTS 6 on just its computer inards it'd be worth less than 50 bucks!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-23-2003, 12:04 AM:

Mark wrote, " Our first XD-10 out of the box didn't work. The display screen hung on Initalizing..... and never finished booting up. DTS reccomended re-seating all the connectors inside and that took care of the problem.."

We had the same problem with our DTS-CSS (which is basically the same chassis as the XD-10). It basically comes down to "PCI sucks." We debugged it in some detail.

Basically there was a consistent bit error reading the the PCI vendor ID of the DTS E303 card, which caused its kernel driver to fail to load, and then the software didn't know what to do so didn't finish the booting process. Reseating the card fixed the bit error.

--jhawk

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-23-2003, 12:22 AM:

Last I heard the unofficial running time for LOTR: ROTK was 3hrs. 20mins.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-23-2003, 01:34 AM:

3:20 would be exactly at the upper limit of 2 DTS discs, 200 minutes. No room for any THX or DTS trailers audio. But certainly better than having to switch out discs in the middle of the movie if you have an original (and still trusty) DTS-6 2-drive unit.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 11-23-2003, 01:58 AM:

I took a peek at IMDB ... and they're listing the running time for Lord of the Rings - the Return of the King as 210 minutes (3 hours, 30 minutes for those that don't want to do the math). And I'm well aware that they could be in error.

Then again, this third installment, logically, will need to include events from the end of the novel the Two Towers that weren't covered in the second film.
...Funny, a bit of what was seen from the end of the film of the Fellowship of the Ring was actually from the beginning of the Two Towers (novel). [eyes]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-23-2003, 02:01 AM:

Someone was telling me that they had read were about fifteen minutes of scene with Christopher Lee had been cut from TROTK. Anyone else hear anything about this.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 11-23-2003, 02:34 AM:

Brad, I think I was in error when I quoted 3 h 50 mins.without previews.

Carmike corporate had already set the run times with the previews. So I'm assuming that the 3 hrs 50 mins mark is with 15-20 mins of previews.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-23-2003, 02:46 AM:

Darryl mentions, "Someone was telling me that they had read were about fifteen minutes of scene with Christopher Lee had been cut from TROTK."

There was something on Harry Knowles' site, aintitcoolnews.com, which included an email from Peter Jackson explaining why this was cut, and dispelling a rumour that it was at studio request. I cannot seem to find it now (I really hate how that web site is organized...), but it was covered in the popular press at the time, it might have been on StudioBriefing.

In re the 3h20min, New Line's exhibitor website (guest non-registration acceptable) says, "RUNNING TIME:Unofficially - 3 hours & 20 minutes, check back for an official running time. NO INTERMISSIONS!," as well as listing the attached trailer (Butterfly Effect--Final) but not the enclosed trailers (yet).

Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 11-25-2003, 12:32 AM:

Ok, I don't have dts nor do I know much about it, but Would it be possible to swap out one of the cd-rom drivs for a scsi DVD-ROM drive and burn all the aud files onto a dvd? or am I being ignorant.

Posted by Jean-Pierre Van Hoof (Member # 2063) on 12-10-2003, 04:31 PM:

Could someone with enough privilege sent me an email with the "howto" get 3 dts disk to 1?

Thinking it's a bit silly to post 10 times before getting access to

3 dts on 2 disk's

Posted by Jeff Klump (Member # 1870) on 12-10-2003, 05:14 PM:

the theatre i work at is Harry Knowles' home theatre and let me tell you, we get enough of that guy.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 12-10-2003, 05:45 PM:

Have tried (just like Michael Schaffer) to be certain: my good, old dts-6 with original 1994-drives and nothing ever changed, nothing ever the matter, don't want to chance discs on the way, either. What i have not yet tried, but seem to remember is, that if You for one or other reason try to start a show with only one of the two discs in player, it won't start at all. -Am I right here ? - 'cause then not even the intermission will solve the problem - if the player want to be sure, everything is there, before opening...

btw:
I saw the film this morning (partly slept through it, sorry - it was much too early to me, giving more than 3 hrs with nothing new, except very interesting stuff about Smeagol's past). Fact: This was the first danish cirkulation print, running 3:21, -this screening without intermission, but we were told, that all prints (here) will be delivered to theaters WITH intermission sign, to be used or not, whatever works best at our location. (BRAVO !) I'm not in doubt, what will work out best... 3:21 + commercials + trailers - have You seen a watertrap straightend out lately ? - Intermission 1:25 from start. Need I say, that this screening - with cinema-people in house only - was marred by constant running out and in after the first two hours...

-But test runs ?? No way: Prints expected to arrive while commercials are running - for security reasons !

Post scriptum: It looks as local CinemaxX has no dowser - two stunning format changes (picture on) , when the guy up there found out, someone had put a widescreen trailer in front of his film.... [Big Grin]

No matter how negative, nervous, or whatever I might sound, I do look forward to show this film, anyway - Maraton nite was sold out in 15 minutes - local youngsters lying outside for 12-13 hours to get the tickets, and everyone's just turned on. Welcome to the Malling Bio World Premiere GuineaPigSession, planned to be shown in dts-es !

Per

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-10-2003, 06:15 PM:

quote:
Thinking it's a bit silly to post 10 times before getting access to

Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon is key.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-10-2003, 07:19 PM:

To Mr. Jean-Pierre Van Hoof,

I don't care whether you think it is silly or not. This is the way this site is set up and if you have a problem with it, then do not return.

However in the spirit of Christmas, the Soup Nazi and your post above (which was clearly an attempt to cheat the system), you are hereby banned from participating in this website.

Come back 1 year.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 12-10-2003, 09:16 PM:

I don't know if my theatre is showing with an intermission, nut if we ae, how would you set up one with a platter system. I figure something would have to ne spliced before the continuation reel because of the shutter taking time to open after the lamp is on.

Any thoughts?

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-10-2003, 11:35 PM:

Richard,
To the best of my knowledge none of our locations are running intermissions.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-11-2003, 12:06 AM:

quote:
To the best of my knowledge none of our locations are running intermissions.

...and if they don't want to risk losing their print(s) and being taken off service, they won't.

Posted by Andrew Walls (Member # 179) on 12-11-2003, 12:08 AM:

Word is that Return will now be 2 disks, while the re-release of the first 2 films will be on 3 discs due to the extra footage.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-11-2003, 12:52 AM:

Interesting. If it turns out to be on 2 discs, that's pretty shitty for them to scare everyone with the older units into upgrading to the XD-10 when it wasn't needed all along. (Of course it's not needed anyway with the two tips posted on the front page recently.)

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 12-11-2003, 07:51 AM:

Filmcompagniet, Copenhagen tells me, they are right now shipping TWO DISC sets for all prints of "King"

Per

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 12-11-2003, 10:56 AM:

I can confirm that DTS was able to fit Return of the King into a 2-disc set. The Extended Versions of the 1st two are 3-disc sets.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-16-2003, 05:50 AM:

Going back to page 1 of this thread...

quote:
"We are encouraging exhibitors to trade in their existing DTS-6's for the new XD10 so they will be able to play the movie in DTS."

So did anyone actually blow the cash to upgrade from a perfectly fine dts6 or dts6-d unit to the XD10? Sure the XD10 has some nice improvements over the older units, but that still amounts to more or less a waste of money.

Besides, as was posted here people can easily add a third drive to their dts player, or burn custom discs to solve the space issue. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-17-2003, 03:19 AM:

Daniel ALSO said:

quote:
If we can fit it onto a 2-disc set, we will.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2003, 05:34 AM:

Yet that announcement was made only a few days ago, well after the final running time was set by New Line (and a good 2 weeks after Steve Kraus verified the final cut of the film was 3 hours 21 minutes in the FITA forum). Up until then, the whole "buy our XD-10 or you can't play the movie" was still a lingering threat. It's the insinuation that people HAVE to upgrade that bothers me, when there are obviously other options.

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 12-17-2003, 09:31 PM:

Those of you that have a two drawer DTS system, why not take out disc # 1 when disc # 2 is playing, and insert disc # 3 in drawer #1.
Not much automation, but it should work......right?

Paul

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-17-2003, 09:35 PM:

Because the sound reverts back to analog until the dts unit reloads the discs. something that can be very noticable when done at the wrong time. Plus in large theater complexes the likelyhood that the discs will be changed late or not at all is greater than say a small complex 6 or less screens.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-18-2003, 12:43 AM:

Removing a disc from a DTS-6 player will cause the sound to fail to analog for at least 20 seconds if not more. That can be an enternity with an audience in the house. Plus you have to pick the most "harmless" spot in the film to switch to a third disc. And that means setting an alarm clock, timer or something to get the timing right. I'm wondering how many people went through with customizing DTS-6 players with a third disc drive.

As for XD-10 sales, I'm not sure I can predict lots of theaters upgrading to it until Hollywood starts making movies with soundtracks to address its extended surround capabilities. Even for that to happen, a new breed of cinema processors has to be designed to accomodate the nearly doubled number of potential discrete channels of sound. DTS needs to get on the horn to other companies like Panastereo and get some things in development on that angle already.

Posted by Paul Vollmers (Member # 927) on 12-19-2003, 09:30 AM:

Anyone successful on transfering three DTS discs to two, using the previous ideas?

So, are there three discs or two to the 3 hr and 20 min print final?

Paul

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 12-19-2003, 10:30 AM:

Looks like there is just two discs.

click here

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-19-2003, 03:01 PM:

The biggest advantage of the XD10 is NOT the extended surround or the ability to play a 3 disk movie. The best thing about it is, you can load the disks once and then put them back in the can...no excuses for failing to ship them out.

And, if you DO happen to forget to load the disks, you can pop them in while the trailers (or anything else) are playing and it will load them on the fly.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-19-2003, 05:27 PM:

Panastereo and all the competition are designing for future channels in mind and conversion schemes for older hardware. XD10 strong point is interlocking...only need one set of disks and one print and go to town on the fly. [Smile]

DTS has sent an December 8 update that they are extending the trade in program for the DTS-6 and 6D for credit towards a XD-10 until March 31, 2004. They note at the top of the bulletin that in September, based on distributor input, they would require 3 disks. With more complete information prior to release, DTS notes that 2 disks will do the job unless you are running special extended versions of the series. In a trade interview, the director noted he cut out about 65 minutes out of the first cut....which he plans to restore most in the DVD package.