This is topic CIR splicers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-12-2003, 03:49 PM:
 
Is there a source for these in the US?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-12-2003, 03:56 PM:
 
Links:

http://www.cir-srl.com/inglese/

http://www.cir-srl.com/inglese/cinematographic_products.htm#Giuntatrici

http://www.cir-srl.com/inglese/cinematographic_products.htm#MAC%202

http://www.mr-moody.com/goldenboy/whoswho7/catozzo_l.htm
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2003, 03:57 PM:
 
Frequently you can pick these up for free in your better theater's trash cans.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-12-2003, 05:30 PM:
 
Thanks for the links. Where can I buy it?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 09-12-2003, 05:48 PM:
 
Check with your theatre equipment dealer.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 09-12-2003, 06:01 PM:
 
Hey, Michael,

You could try Christy's Editorial Film Supplies in Burbank, <www.christys.net> or 818/845-1755. They should have parts for them as well.

I should warn you, though...Christy's ain't cheap!

--Jon
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 09-12-2003, 06:04 PM:
 
Try Ebay. I've seen these go for $50 to $100.

I'd recommend getting a used Neumade<japanese> if you're on a budget. I love mine.

Danny
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-12-2003, 06:28 PM:
 
Brad you are mistaken CIR splicer are in constant use in the quality deluxe theatres the neutapers are in the dumpsters
 

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Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 09-12-2003, 06:32 PM:
 
Any theater equipment dealer can sell you a brand new one. Of course you could go to the USA distributor J & R Film/Moviola/CIRO Equipment 1135 North Mansfield Ave., Hollywood, Calif. 90038 phone: 1-877-MOVIOLA or (323) 467-3107 or fax: 323-466-2201 URL: www.moviola.com

These splicers are known by 3 different names: CIRO, CIR, Dr. Leo.

[ 09-13-2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Ken Layton ]
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2003, 07:06 PM:
 
Funny how you throw Deluxe into that, Gordon. We all know of their quality standards.

This link is sooooooo right on the money! I wouldn't make such a big deal about this if those splicers were even somewhat decent.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-12-2003, 07:10 PM:
 
Actually I am suprised that proper research wasn't done (read the manual that came with it) as to the purpose of the adjustable pins.
It is for shrunken film not producing an overlap
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2003, 07:11 PM:
 
So how does that affect a regular projection room of today splicing brand new polyester film? It doesn't. The splices are still shit.

Gordon, remember even when we were at ShoWest 2 years ago and you used a brand new CIR you could not make an acceptable splice with it. No wait correction here, YOU thought it was a good quality splice. That would've never passed for me and some of the bystanders. I suppose if you are not picky about the quality of your splices, go ahead and buy the CIR.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 09-13-2003, 02:48 AM:
 
I have one CIR splicer sitting in a locker. I've taken it out a few times to try to get it to work, just so we would have an extra splicer, but no matter what I do I cannot get it to make a splice or even cut the film.

I think the fact that even I can fix a 35ss no matter what would be an excellent marketing angle for Neumade.
 

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Posted by Dan Harris (Member # 1759) on 09-13-2003, 04:42 AM:
 
I agree with Brad on this one. These splicers are awful. We've got four of the damn things and not a single one can produce a decent splice. Some people would tell me they havn't been maintained properly, but they are, and I've even stripped them right down before and replaced parts one by one, but they have still been bad.

As Joe says in his review "the splicer has never been able to properly punch out all of the perfs in the tape. You must peel each little square off yourself" which is totally true. Even with a brand new and unused blade it still leaves a sliver of tape which you have to trim off with scissors.

Unfortunately, the chain I work for wont buy anything else!
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 09-13-2003, 07:28 AM:
 
I beg to differ guys...

Without for a moment questioning your finding the Neumade joiner to be superior, I would nevertheless like to make a few points in defence of the CIR design;

1. The model Joe Redifer reviewed is the SPECIAL, which is only intended for use in film archives, speciality houses, etc. Gordon has already pointed out the purpose of the adjustable pins on the left-hand end. On the right-hand end, the retractable pins also help with deformed film, and are also used to permit a greater overlap cut in particular situations. For example, we've all seen "jacknifed" head and tail splices, where one of the frames is considerably shorter than the other. The retractable pins allow one to slide this frame sideways, whilst still held accurately in the channel, and cut it back precisely so that the next frame comes back into perfect registration.

Anyone using this splicer model in a multiplex should check the pin alignment by laying a fresh piece of film in the channel (say a trailer head) and making sure the film lies completely flat, with no strain on the perfs where they sit on the pins. If not, the adjustable pins should be moved precisely. THEN the adjustment knob should be LOCKED by tightening a setscrew located above the knob casting, using a jeweller's screwdriver. This is countersunk into the lip of the film channel and is visible in the review photo.

This is MOST IMPORTANT as ANY discrepancy in the pin alignment will change the perf pitch and cause those jumps in the gate.
In any case, multis should only have to use the STANDARD model, which has none of these refinements and has fixed pins.

2. The CIR splicer MUST be regularly maintained and checked for alignment to give its proper performance. But what's new about that? It's the same for any piece of equipment. I would say that almost ALL the problems quoted here are due to tiny misalignments, and especially adhesive build up. Even if you strip it down and thoroughly clean it, it MUST be very carefully reassembled and adjusted, paying VERY close attention to the blade position and the alignment of the punch, as well as the picture guillotine (it is not a blade).

In my experience blades are blunted and the punch damaged very quickly when misaligned. It makes sense, because even a slight error will cause the blade to unduly strike the steel platen on the film channel, and likewise the tips of the punch to hit the edges of the holes in the platen. Also, the sprung handle must travel smoothly and freely up and down on the steel pillars, if not, undue force will be exerted on the punch and tape cutting blade. (Usually I slightly grease these).

Note that once the adjustments are made, they don't have to be altered every time you clean the splicer. In other words, it can be dissassembled enough to clean without further disassembly that would affect the blade and punch alignments.

I would agree that it takes a bit of trial and error to get it to work perfectly, and time isn't something in great supply in cinemas today, BUT once it's lined up correctly I can vouch for excellent performance, with NO undue jumping in the gate, ZERO perf damage, NO tape "squares" stuck to the film, etc. etc. Believe me! I recently refurbished one of these splicers, that was held to be "beyond repair" and spent a lot of time on it, and it's as good as new.

Maybe you'll upgrade your review Joe from "Blows" to merely "Sucks"?
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 09-13-2003, 07:58 AM:
 
I too agree with Brian on this one. In the UK almost 100% of sites use CIR - try switching to Numade and the sites moan like hell. In the states it seems the tables are turned, with one big exceptiopn - try to introduce change and everyone moans like hell. Maybe everyone moans like hell anyway !

I've grown up with CIR and like them - best feature is that if (when ?) you drop one it's fairly easy to rebuild. Others have grown up on Numade or even bottles of cement and a couple of rewinder nuts and all love their own method. But I do feel that anyone who universally slags off a product that they haven't got to grips with is perhaps a little out of their field of expertise - if the CIRs are no good and everyone (say 3000 screens) in the UK uses them then why do we not have massive instances of films breaking ?
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 09-13-2003, 10:42 AM:
 
As Peter says, in the UK its virtually 100% usage of CIR's.

I agree that the adjustable splicers are a menace and should not be used in commercial cinemas as the projectionsists just don't know how to adjust them correctly.

Brian is quite correct in that the film MUST have no stress induced on it by the registration pins. Any overlap is to be provided for by the cutting block adjustments.

Once the cutter is set you always cut the film from one side only, normally from the left, giving you exactly the amount of overlap you intended.

As for not trimming the tape edges, this is down to the blades not being set correctly, or being worn or not keeping tension on the tape as you puch the cutter down.

The same applies to the squares of tape from the perforators. Regular cleaning of the punches and making sure you have a layer of tape over the punch holes has always cured the problem for me.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-13-2003, 11:20 AM:
 
On the issue of the punchings not being removed and also torn ragged tape edges
In almost every case the splicer has had the hole in the matrix cleaned out and not tape across the matrix
If one reads the manual it says there is to be 2 layers of tape left across the matrix and the the holes in the matrix should not be cleaned out as the punchings are to adhere to the old ones still in the matrix
Which is one reason a new one takes some time to wear in
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-13-2003, 04:20 PM:
 
Someone send me over a CIR in what would be considered "perfect alignment and working order" and loan it to me for 2 weeks and I will do a re-review. However I have seen far too many CIRs and not one of them made an acceptable splice to my standards. (I have a feeling the reason so many people in the UK see the CIRs is because of the price, for we all know "cheaper is always better".)

I also find it ridiculous that two layers (or even one) of splicing tape must be left on the block to supposedly prevent the tape punches from retracting. The Neumade does not require this practice and never has the kind of tape perf issues that plagues every CIR. Someone please answer why that is.
 

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Posted by Dan Harris (Member # 1759) on 09-13-2003, 04:38 PM:
 
Of the 4 I've got here, two are the "special" design with adjustable pins (supplied by Sound Associates when we opened) and two have the standard fixed pins (1 from Jacro, 1 I rescued from a closed site). The standard design is far superior in operation to the special one, especially for a multiplex operation, but I suspect thats because every time someone uses an adjustable one they appear to have been readjusted.

I do find that a lot of tape builds up around between the back of the blade and the plate, and down the holes of the cutting matrix, which does have to be removed regularly.

I have another one of the adjustable ones which is currently lying in pieces (some salvaged) on my desk waiting to be rebuilt. Im going to rebuild it, set it up correctly, and use it just for myself for a while. I'll report back what I think! As Peter says, if you do drop one they are very easy to rebuild (OK, so I once left one resting on a plate as I started the film!) and the only component I've ever had break on one was the handle.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-13-2003, 04:44 PM:
 
Brad said"I also find it ridiculous that two layers (or even one) of splicing tape must be left on the block to supposedly prevent the tape punches from retracting. The Neumade does not require this practice and never has the kind of tape perf issues that plagues every CIR. Someone please answer why that is"
It is ridiculous to expect a product to preform when its design peramiters are not met. And if they chose to design it that way so be it
Also I believe the european price on a neumade is cheaper than CIR at least it is in canada
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-13-2003, 04:47 PM:
 
Gordon, you should not assume. I remember there being tape on the CIRs at Joe's theater back a few years ago when that review was written. Upon removing the tape, the performance did not get better or worse.

About a year ago you made a stink about the tape over the holes on the forum. Having access to two almost-new CIRs at the time, I went in and again put tape across the plate and still no benefit.

Now can someone answer my query?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-13-2003, 06:06 PM:
 
I can answer that, Brad. The answer is: "Because the CIR splicer sucks". Putting a layer of tape down doesn't seem to make it any better. Well maybe it does, but it still sucks ass.

If CIR's are so great, why do I get a better splice from the Neumade (Japanese build) EVERY single time? Do the CIR's need readjustment between each and every splice? Am I simply making the splice wrong? Does it take a rocket scientist to make a splice since obviously I can't make a good one with a CIR?

Experience using splicers speaks volumes and in my experience, CIR always loses.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-13-2003, 06:32 PM:
 
None of yous know what you're talking about. I always use my Maier-Hancock 1635 hot splicer for ALL my important prints. Both acetate and poly.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-13-2003, 06:52 PM:
 
Umm...Phil...how do you use a cement splicer for polyester prints? I have an M-H 16/35 splicer. It works nicely for repairs to acetate prints and makes a nice paperweight/doorstop as well.

As for the CIR--I've worked with them (and own the 16mm model) and would agree that the Neumade is far superior. Having said that, the CIRs that I have used all seem to make "decent" splices if the blades are kept clean. Considering that even the "cheap" splicers are expensive, it just makes sense to me to spend slightly more and buy the best (the Neumade) rather than to try to save a few pennies by purchasing an inferior model. Most theatres in the US do indeed seem to chosen the Neumade model.

For those who like the CIR--why do you prefer it to the Neumade?
 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 09-13-2003, 06:58 PM:
 
What I find hard to get used to with the CIR is pulling the tape AWAY from the operator, with the roll of tape in front, blocking
access and view to the splice being made.

That defies the normal Push--Away; Pull--Toward motion that holds in every other aspect of human endeavor.

Therefore I feel clumsy using the CIR, while the Neumade feels natural. Then too, when pushing down on the lever, unless the operator is directly in line with the splicer, there is a tendancy of the CIR splicer to overturn sideways, whereas the larger footprint and D-handle of the Neumade stays put.

Lastly, I'll admit that if you spin the platter without removing the splicer, the neumade handle is likely to bend or break when it hits the floor, causing a $90 charge for a new handle, whereas the CIR might sail across the room unbroken. The CIR is small and light enough to be carried in a pocket of jeans or cargo pants, but I still prefer the D-handle for transporting the NeumadeSS35.
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 09-13-2003, 08:05 PM:
 
Brad, with reference to your question re. why the CIR has tape perf issues and the Neumade doesn't, could it be that the Neutaper punch and die are of a slightly different design that is somehow more forgiving? I've looked at the exploded drawing of the 35-SS on their website and the punch actually looks very similar (with the vee cuts?) but I can't be sure.

Is it also possible that the stability of the Neutaper's wider base and D-handle, as Gerald mentions, means there is relatively little force exerted when making a splice, thus eliminating any possibilty of damage to the film? (I've seen people really slam those CIRs!).

Unfortunately I don't have access to a Neutaper here, and worse, I don't think anyone will part with their CIRs to do your re-review! (I'm not lucky enough to have my own). But I will try.

I still assert that a properly lined up CIR is trouble-free. But it seems the Neutaper gives better results with a lot less maintenance. I wouldn't mind trying one out. They're not readily available over here AFAIK.
 

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Posted by Jeff Klump (Member # 1870) on 09-14-2003, 03:29 AM:
 
We have 3 CIR Specials. I will agree that the adjustable pins are a good idea in some regards, but in the hands of a projectionist who is not used to it bad splices occur. It certainly is an aquired skill on using them properly. I couldn't ever go back to neumade.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 09-14-2003, 04:22 AM:
 
Jeff - a projectionist who can`t figure out how to use the adjustable pins (it is really not so difficult to understand) to make a neat splice shouldn`t handle the print in the first place and will make bad splices with any equipment.

Funny - I just wanted to know which dealer has them and I stir up a quasi-religious debate about splicers. I have no general complaint about the Neumade splicers. They do seem a bit less robust than the CIRs which you find practically everywhere in Europe. So I wanted to make a comparison about pricing. Making a good splice is no problem with either - it depends on how careful you work, not on the splicer.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 09-14-2003, 04:30 AM:
 
Micheal,
all major US dealers carry the CIR product due to their association with either J & R or Goldberg which is owned by the same parent owner. Some dealers do not like to deal with Goldberg. Len D Enterprises of Florida also distributes the parts.
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 09-14-2003, 08:03 AM:
 
Joe -

If a CIR needs adjustment every splice, then I must have missed something every Thursday night in (say) an 8 plex here - 8 film changes, 8 sets of adverts, perhaps 16 trailer changes and countless policy logos and leaders - my calculations are 100 splices - are the operators here really adjusting the thing 100 times a night ?

As said, it's what you get used to. Sites with them like them. Price wise they are around £GBP270 here - not sure about the NuMades - how does this compare to the states ?

Has anyone used the Indian copies that CFS sell ?
 

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Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 09-14-2003, 03:44 PM:
 
Like any slicer, you must clean it regular, and youll find 99% of UK cinemas use CIR, we have 3 16mm ones, 2 35mm and 1 70mm at my site, all work beautifull.

Keep em clean, replace blade once a year if that!

Darren
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-14-2003, 04:24 PM:
 
Am I alone in being somewhat bored with the regular ongoing debate on these things?
It seems to be Nuemade is king in the US, CIR is king in the rest of the known world. Forget all about the cheap imitations of both splicers that surface from time to time. The bottom line is that if you like Neumade, great, if you like CIR, great. As long as either does the job for you what the heck does it matter? I've used both and found both perfectly capable of producing good joins.

Now if you want to see a splicer that really sucks, try a Strong! Best use I've ever found for those is as a door stop (seriously).
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 09-14-2003, 04:43 PM:
 
"The rest of the world." Oh PLEEZE!

CIR: Only in Europe and that's only cuz Italy is there.

In the US, it's Neumade cuz they are here.

The rest of the world fends for themselves.

One thing I do agree about, this discussion is BORING!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 09-14-2003, 05:28 PM:
 
Brad & co.

I use CIR splicer since my first splice. Reading this discussion I thought on my way to use that splice in these years, first one-screen and then multiplexes.

In the one-screen only there are time to do everything, I modified the splicer as I read on this website and I always made splices like you said in the tips section. I set the pins so that with an uncut print on it they don't push or pull the print. Splices were perfect but I always noted that little jump on the screen at splices. The problem could be corrected using a particular order of overlapping while splicing but this method cannot be applied on multiplexes...
CIR splicers are not particular precise cutting the prints so my primary problem was the "POP"s in the sound between trailer, logos and so on. So this is my decision: make overlapped splices (using the pins...) at trailers/logo splices and do perfect, not overlapped splices between reels where Dolby can compensate for 1 frame and, usually, doesn't drop in analog.

However, if kept clean, CIR splicers do their job.

I never used Neumade. Other theaters of my chain has them. If distance between pins cannot be adjusted the only way to overlap parts is to adjust the blades, right?

Bye
A
 

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Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 09-15-2003, 12:44 AM:
 

quote:

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Actually I am suprised that proper research wasn't done (read the manual that came with it) as to the purpose of the adjustable pins.
It is for shrunken film not producing an overlap

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Of the billions of CIR splicers I've seen, I've never seen a manual for one anywhere. There's even not one in the Film-Tech manuals section.

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I've used it for that intended function often. It's great for theaters that run old films. A big problem though is that sometimes the film is so shrunken that the *size* of the registration pins is too large & would deform the perfs. What splicer would work best for those prints?

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