Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Moving Image Technologies

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Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-03-2003, 01:17 PM:

Hi everyone,

Long-time lurker, first time poster Bevan Wright here…

In case any of you have not yet heard, a group of us from Christie have left to form Moving Image Technologies. MiT will be dedicated to products and services specifically for the cinema exhibition marketplace. Please visit our website at www.movingimagetech.com . We are looking forward to continuing our long-standing personal and professional relationships in this great industry. If you have any product suggestions or recommendations please feel free to drop us an e-mail.

Regards,

Bevan Wright
Moving Image Technologies
(714) 751-7998

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-03-2003, 02:04 PM:

Wow! Best wishes for the new endeavors.

Will the actual products bear such a striking resemblance to the Christie equivalents? I guess what I'm *really* wondering is whether your new company is going with all of Christie's film stuff while Christie goes totally digital. Same machines, same parts? Or all-new?

Also, I really hope that you will continue searching for a logo because the three colorful balls is a bit too generic, imho.

Finally, I'm dying to know -- and I'd understand if you didn't go there -- was this mutiny? It seems like a mass exodus took place.

Here's to the success of your new company. [thumbsup]

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-03-2003, 02:50 PM:

Manny,

Products are significantly different... well as different as you can make some of these products. This is not really rocket science and we are not re-inventing the wheel here, we are implementing 'best of breed' system architecture with a focus on performance and value. Again, we look forward to feature input from the people that use these products the most.

I was with Christie for 10 years, almost to the day, I wish them the best of luck.

Bevan

[ 10-05-2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Bevan Wright ]

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-03-2003, 03:32 PM:

The Platter look identical to AW3s at first glance.

I Really like the automation system though. And the console looks decent to. Does it only come in blue?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-03-2003, 03:39 PM:

I had hoped that you would also manufacture alternative spare parts for Christie projectors. I had some problems recently to get the right, complete, and fitting parts. In one case the part was even rusty.

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-03-2003, 03:48 PM:

Colors have not yet been set. Suggestions?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-03-2003, 03:51 PM:

Rainbow! Just kidding. Actually I kind of like black because it is (fairly) easy to keep clean, and doesn't show spots as well as the silver Strong equipment can. Of course I don't think I'd make the platter deck itself black, as that might be kind of odd. Silver looks good as well, but it can show blemishes easily. Of course my car is black and I have a hard time keeping it perfectly clean, so what do I know? [Smile]

I find this new company very interesting and look forward to seeing its products.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-03-2003, 03:57 PM:

Congratulations on your new endeavor.

Colors? I like Joe's suggestion of black. VERY easy to keep clean. Second preference would be a dark color, like Christie is using. Definitely make "wear" parts such as film rollers black.

The platter drawing does look like an AW3. Will it for all practical purposes be an AW3? (In other words, interchangeable parts?) I have a few minor suggested upgrades for you on some of the items you may want to keep in the back of your mind during the design stage. I will email.

Posted by Matt Hale (Member # 1518) on 10-03-2003, 05:53 PM:

Isn't forest green supposed to have a psychological calming effect? Might be just the thing for all those gigaplexes with one operator. Black would also be a good choice.

Looks like some interesting stuff there. Will definitely keep an eye on the website.

Good Luck.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 10-03-2003, 07:09 PM:

quote:
black. VERY easy to keep clean.

please explain. is it just because light-colored dust is easy to see on it? then why the comment (from joe) about silver showing blemishes?

on our christie platters, the blue rollers are much cleaner, and easier to clean, than the black ones, although that's due to the different design, really.

speaking of colors, look at that automation. red for start and green for stop is very innovative but is it a good idea?

carl

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-03-2003, 07:25 PM:

Best of luck Bevan and Associates!!

Finally! You now have a chance to build the P35GP the right way(If that can even be done).

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-03-2003, 09:23 PM:

Nice seeing you at ShowEast. [Cool]

Good luck in your new venture, along with Joe Delgado and Dave Richards and the rest of your partners. [thumbsup]

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-03-2003, 09:27 PM:

Good catch Carl. Fixed.... a little too much innovation. [Wink]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-03-2003, 09:29 PM:

Good luck with this venture
Make the film handling areas white so that any trace of dirt is visible

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 10-03-2003, 09:40 PM:

I think it's pink that has a calming effect.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-03-2003, 09:54 PM:

quote:
Matthew Bailey wrote:
I think it's pink that has a calming effect.

It also has a "not gonna sell" effect.

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 10-03-2003, 10:34 PM:

Good point, Gordon - HATE black rollers for that reason. Christie Blue - better than black, not as good as white. Good luck, Bevan.
-Matt
NETS

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-04-2003, 07:36 AM:

Congratulations on the new company!

The automation system shown on the web page looks like it could use a few more options. I'd like to see a second "dimmer" control function (stage lights vs. house lights) and a "mid" option for the dimmer as well (in addition to high and low). The sound format selection for trailers vs. feature looks good, but there should be "mono" and "Dolby Stereo A" options as well. I assume that this is intended to be a basic, low-cost, single-machine system for use in mall-type theatres, but these additions would be useful in those venues. It would also be good to have a timer, either built-in or optional.

I'm not sure if there's a market for it, but it would be nice if there were a more full-featured version of this automation system (a la the CA21) with capabilities for changeovers, additional dimmers, more picture/sound formats, etc.

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-04-2003, 09:19 AM:

Scott,

You are correct, this is an entry level version. Count-down timer is an option (I'll add it to the specs). Sometime in the future there will be a higher-end version as well.

Bevan

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2003, 03:41 PM:

3 things to make your basic automation better than everyone else's...

An audio fader control on the automation is a must. For a more simplified line of automations such as this, a simple "trailer vs. feature" level is sufficient.

Also, a "start cue" is also very important. It looks like you have that already, but pressing the green START button (or via start timer) should fire the projector motor and nothing else. When the start cue passes, the xenon should strike, lights dim down, etc. and 8 seconds later the douser open.

Finally regarding the start timer, please make it such that you set the desired "time" to start, not the "time remaining". Too often in a multiplex the projectionist is running around frantically and a simple miscalculation of the timer setting can really screw up a show.

Think you guys could tackle something of the mighty CA21 variety? [Cool]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-04-2003, 04:21 PM:

Agreed to Brad's ideas. If adding a fader control, there only needs to be one fader as part of the automation (presumably for trailers); the feature sound can be controlled by the fader on the processor. The automation would just need to toggle between 'local' (on the processor) and 'remote' (on the automation) faders.

Also, if implementing a start cue, there should be a switch on the front panel to toggle the start function to either "delay" (starts after ~7 seconds) or "cue" start.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2003, 04:28 PM:

Not all processors have a remotely controlled local/remote capability. Also, not all processors can toggle period, or have logic to know which one it is on. Better to leave the processor in remote fader all the time and let the automation toggle it's own controls.

Also, I would put such a time delay switch on the backside of the unit. Don't want people accidentally flipping that switch. It should be flipped once during install (to the tech or operator's preference) then left anyway.

One more thing, how about say 4 extra random unused relays per cue being in the box? (2 latching / 2 momentary) That would be nice for such things as DVD player/video projector on/off control or even for more important things like automatically turning the overhead booth light on and off as the show starts or finishes. [thumbsup]

(I'll bet Bevan just loooooooves having all of these outsiders tell him how to design his products. [Wink]

)

Posted by Steven H. Krams (Member # 1461) on 10-04-2003, 04:30 PM:

Good Luck to you Bevan and all your Partners. Will be interested in seeing what products you will providing and what innovative technology you will be delivering.

All the Best!

Steven H Krams

International Cinema Equipment

a division of Magna-Tech Electronic Co. Inc.

Miami Florida USA

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-04-2003, 06:18 PM:

Welcome aboard Steve

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-04-2003, 06:29 PM:

The Film-Tech recruiting efforts at ShowEast are paying off! [Smile]

Welcome Steve!

Bevan --- has there ever been serious thought about an automation system based on frame count cueing, rather than physical cues? Almost all labs now use frame count cueing for their printers, as it doesn't require putting any cues on the film.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-04-2003, 06:39 PM:

But how do you tell the automation where the cues should be? For instance, to bring up the house lights half for the credits. Would you have to stand next to the machine during the first show to push a button at the right moment for the automation to learn where the cue is? Could you transfer frame count based automation profiles when you move the print?

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-04-2003, 07:01 PM:

You would need to measure the film during makeup to program the frame count cues.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2003, 07:02 PM:

A neat idea, but I can see lots and lots of problems. So long as the cue detectors accept "Aucuta II" type cues, I think that is the best route. If the detector requires those "opticues" (or whatever that crap is), then I can see an "F" rating in the review section. Those type of cues have no place in a professional booth.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-04-2003, 07:06 PM:

John, moving prints would be a real hassle. You'd have to reprogram the automation. And what if you had two prints playing in the same auditorium? Plus the print takes longer to assemble because you're busy counting frames. What if you change a trailer after the print has been running for a week? I only forsee headaches. Strong uses timed or "learned" cues on their CNA automations, and I hate that feature.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-04-2003, 07:23 PM:

Okay. Just thought that the idea of not having any cues attached to the print would be attractive, as well as being immune to miscues from previous cues or lost cues.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-04-2003, 07:49 PM:

It would be attractive! But the frame count method does not seem practical in modern multiplexes. Some automation systems use barcodes. Do these only contain commands or also a theater ID? In that case, mis-cues from other theatres would be a thing of the past.
Yes, yes, of course, we always want to inspect the print carefully and remove all cues from other theatres, but we all know that in the reality of daily operations it sometimes happens that we miss one old cue.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-04-2003, 08:09 PM:

I don't trust operators to go measuring film for cues. Sorry but I think we're in one of those "good help is hard to find" or "you get what you pay for" categories nowadays.

IIRC the Strong automations we had at AMC had a "learn" feature which recalled the placement of cues, either physical or operator induced.

I used the feature exactly one time. First of all, if the cues are already in place on the film then why bother with making the automation learn them? The logic was that cues sometimes fall off. [Roll Eyes]

I've never actually seen this happen.

So when/why did I use the "learn" feature that one time? Someone forgot to put a lens change cue on the print so I had to force it manually while the show was running. On the next pass, the automation learned the cues based on input from foil cues and that operator induced lens change. The show ran fine...until the print got moved.

Oh yeah -- It helps if you take the automation out of learn mode once it's done learning the cues. Otherwise it won't run the learned routine and it could also learn the wrong things. [Eek!]

I'm hooked on the CA-21 so obviously I would want something that offers that kind of interface. I find it to be an elegant, yet tremendously flexible automation. Still, it's waaay too expensive. What's up with that?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-04-2003, 08:37 PM:

quote:
Manny wrote:
IIRC

What is that supposed to mean? If I Recall?

I am in heavy favor of just typing things out. WTF?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-04-2003, 08:54 PM:

If you really want a system that does count-cueing, IMO you should consider a system that interfaces with digital sound (DTS or SRD). Decoding the DTS timecode is pretty straightforward, and I'm given to understand there's a way to get timecode out of a DA20 (because Dolby Screentalk uses it).

Such a mechanism would easily let you know what a trailer was and what the feature was, though maybe there would be issues bringing down the lights fast enough at the start of the feature, but that sounds acheivable.

The undoable part would be the lights up cue; perhaps if that was learnable. Or, if this really caught on (unlikely), distributors could publish the lights-up cue offsets...

--jhawk@mit.edu

p.s.: "MiT," huh? Seems like lots of room for confusion with MIT, but I'm sure I'm just biased.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-04-2003, 09:05 PM:

Eprad, who manufacture the Strong automation, has had cue learn functions for almost 20 years on the their Utilimation series which the CNA units are the upgraded versions.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-04-2003, 09:27 PM:

Bad, bad idea there Jhawk. We don't know that dts will be around forever. SDDS is all but dead already, plus not all films use dts. Besides, you haven't taken into account what kind of super expensive failsafe it would take to read the SRD track. An automation system needs to be able to do it's thing on blank filmstocks.

Advanced technology is not always better. Just look at DLP vs. film. [Big Grin]

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-04-2003, 10:48 PM:

quote:
Or, if this really caught on (unlikely), distributors could publish the lights-up cue offsets.

As far as distributors are concerned, they would just as soon have the lights go completely out when the projector starts and they stay completely out until the rating band at the end of the film. Do you actually want the distributor controlling your presentation anyway?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-04-2003, 10:53 PM:

Why not just use magic to control the automation?

This entry-level automation will soon cost $10,000 if all the ideas here are implemented. [Smile]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-04-2003, 11:00 PM:

How about they just put a little elf in a box and sell that. The little elves could run the shows for you, automatically.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-04-2003, 11:49 PM:

Daryl,
That would be just fine with me as long as they are the Keebler Elves and they are allowed to bake cookies in between shows!
We can also train the little elves to clean the belt crap off the insides of the projector if heaven forbid its another belt driven wonder they produce......
Mark(The Cookie Monster)@ CLACO

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-05-2003, 12:23 AM:

Mark,
the Keebler system would be a theater owner's dream as the elves would make profitable concession products, between shows, to go with the projection / popcorn employee's contribution [Wink]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-05-2003, 12:32 AM:

Well there you have it.

Don't forget my royalty cheques Bevan. [Smile]

Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 10-05-2003, 12:54 AM:

Best of Luck with this new endeavor Bevan. Look forward to seeing the projector.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-06-2003, 01:35 AM:

Brad, what are "Actua II" type cues? Anywho, the specs on the website say that it can work with any three-head proximity detector. The optical cues would not fit this category, so no worries there. Also, why is it so important to have a start cue? I've never worked with any automation that has this feature and, although I could see where it could be useful, I do not see why it's so necessary.

I agree with others' comments that if all these ideas are implemented that this will no longer be an "entry level" automation and will be way too expensive. For the most part, I like the automation as it is. Agreed that there needs to be a "mid" setting for lights (or perhaps a mid1 and mid2) and better selection of the sound formats.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-06-2003, 01:48 AM:

Having the show just start 7 seconds after you hit the start button means that you have to thread up at a point where your projected film has already left the platter (or at least the roll). This introduces the unnecessary opportunity for dust to settle directly on your projected film.

Having to thread up at, or near, a specific spot on the leader is also a waste of time. It also encourages running down the leader (to the necessary start position) which is generally not good for the projectors drive train and/or motor.

Having no start cue can also make interlocks a pain to start.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-06-2003, 02:36 AM:

quote:
The logic was that cues sometimes fall off. I've never actually seen this happen.

I have. The cues usually get caught in the gate. Also some of the real el-cheapo cue tape which is nothing more than chrome-plated Mylar or paper adhesive tape usually would wear itself to nonconductivity within 2-3 weeks. Using cue tape made of 100% metal foil solves that problem, though they can still vanish in the gate if not applied properly.

quote:
what are "Actua II" type cues?

'Actua II' is Xetron's name for its foil cues that come pre-slit on 3x5 sheets.

I use 'em for reversing cues on reel to reel tapes [Smile]

-Aaron

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-06-2003, 03:50 AM:

I have never had problems with the Aucuta II cues. Maybe there is something wrong with your failsafe?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-06-2003, 05:38 PM:

quote:
Having no start cue can also make interlocks a pain to start.

Most automation I've worked with do not require a start cue for single-theater operation, but do for interlock operation. In that case I can see why they are used.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-06-2003, 05:56 PM:

I've only run interlock shows with Xetron Maxi-10 automations; with those, there's no start cue. The operator just hits "start" manually with the "8" on the leader runs through the gate and repeats this process at each machine. I don't really see the problem with this, since the operator would want to check each screen as the show starts, anyway. It's not like it needs to be frame accurate, anyway.

The Component Engineering TA-10 uses a start cue for interlock shows, but I've never run an interlock show with those.

I've only worked with full-manual booths and with simple automations like the TA-10 and Maxi-10; at this point, I'm beginning to think that I'd really love something like a peg-board-style automation system. I want the flexibility of a manual booth (including changeovers and all sound formats, fader adjustments, intermissions, 16mm/video/slides/other formats, etc.) and the repeatability of automation (with the capability of running full manual, of course). For one-off shows, it would be great to be able to run without cues and just execute the next "event" in the series (e.g. lights down/format 10/fader 7.0/changeover) with one button, rather than having to do several things at once. Film festivals and such are fun, but it gets a little annoying when a program with a mix of 35mm film and video (or 16mm) requires three operators.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-06-2003, 08:53 PM:

Joe - IIRC means If I Recall Correctly.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-06-2003, 09:19 PM:

Some more thoughts about the automation:

Do the start and stop buttons have lights on them? I'd like to see something similar to what the CNA-150 has: when a show is not threaded, the stop button is lit (IIRC; if not, I think it should be). When threaded, the start button is blinking. When running, the start button is constantly illuminated. If the show stops for any reason the alarms sounds and the stop button blinks. The alarm is cancelled by pushing the stop button.

I know this is designed to be a simple electro-mechanical automation, not a fancy computer-based one. But will it feature any type of programig options (such as the cue matrix on the Big Sky automation), or are all cue functions factory set?

Finally, when will it be commercially released?

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-07-2003, 10:22 AM:

Start,stop and cue buttons all have LED indicators. The four primary cues are pre-assigned, there are two optional cues and two optional switches that can be customized based on the exhibitors requirements.

Early next year for the first major equipment products, look for the full-line at ShoWest in late March.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-07-2003, 07:49 PM:

Bevan, how about a lamphouse or console with provision for duct hookup on the input as well as the output sides? Not only would this allow provision for control over the cooling air temp, filtration, etc. but perhaps more importantly would vastly reduce the air flow through the booth and make its temp, humidity, filtration easier to control.

Posted by Bevan Wright (Member # 1884) on 10-07-2003, 08:04 PM:

Steve, as a matter of fact, that was one of the underlying concepts on the new console cooling design. The air intake is on the back top of the console (the only lamphouse intake) it will be simple to duct filtered AC to this intake area (and extract the 8" exhaust) separating the console from the booth environmental load (except for any radiant heat from the surfaces and powersupply of course).

Posted by Trevor Bailey (Member # 75) on 10-07-2003, 10:37 PM:

Bevan,

I know I speak for many of us at NCS when I say best of luck and we look forward to seeing your products.

So, is Jud holding down the Christie ship by himself now? [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-08-2003, 05:56 AM:

The ability to use an outside air supply for lamphouse cooling is a great idea. [thumbsup]

Current designs that suck all that conditioned air from the projection room just to cool the lamp make it very difficult to maintain proper temperature and humidity in the projection room. Obviously, you need to pay attention the the cleanliness, temperature, and RH of the incoming air, but at least a separate intake would offer installers the option of where to get that air.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-08-2003, 09:36 AM:

Up here in the north we used to provide a airinlet duct to the cinemecanica consoles years ago mainly so as one walked by the airflow switchs didn't trip but it did keep the booth enviorment better

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 10-09-2003, 12:31 AM:

I've seen horizontal Xenon booths in Alabama & Mississippi before (90s, possibly 80s install) with AC ducted into the exhaust duct. I put my hand under the "inlets" and felt the cold air coming out. I wondered briefly about reversing the air flow, but hey, if it worked...

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-09-2003, 05:33 AM:

quote:
I've seen horizontal Xenon booths in Alabama & Mississippi before (90s, possibly 80s install) with AC ducted into the exhaust duct. I put my hand under the "inlets" and felt the cold air coming out. I wondered briefly about reversing the air flow, but hey, if it worked...

Not a good practice. [Eek!]

It would risk having very poor airflow within the lamphouse, and would force any hazardous ozone produced by the lamp and high voltage ignition back into the projection room.