Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cleaning & Relubricating floating hub reels

This is topic Cleaning & Relubricating floating hub reels in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 10-11-2003, 02:05 AM:

Hi Guys,

I am cleaning a few Goldberg Bros. floating hub reels.

What can I use to re lubricate them......

KY or Doc Johnson's? [evil]

Just kidding, but they are water based lubricants, and I don't want to trash any film.

Thanks,

Erick

Posted by Ken Layton (Member # 133) on 10-11-2003, 09:50 AM:

Try some "Super Lube Dri-Film" silicone lubricant (in a spray can with a pipe). It's a dry silicone spray that does not attract dirt. You can get it at Lowe's. The barcode is 082353110162.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 10-11-2003, 02:11 PM:

Are the floating hub reels the kind that the flanges spin freely??

I have tons of those that are locked up.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-11-2003, 02:35 PM:

You shouldn't clean them you should just send them to me for safe keeping

Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 10-11-2003, 06:46 PM:

Yes they are Chris.

The ones I have are not locked up, some can be completely disassembled but the others have pressed in brads. Guess I'm going to have to put those in the deep freeze to remove them.

Nice try Greg. [Big Grin]

Maybe Chris would like to give his to me, I'm much closer!!! [Razz]

Ken,
Do you think that this is a better solution then the
(I'm guessing) silicon grease that is already there?
As they are designed for a slow start up, wouldn't a dry spray type cause the take off speed to be a bit quicker?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-11-2003, 08:04 PM:

Duplication
Justification
Intoxication
Assassination

(Duplicate Post) [Frown]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-11-2003, 08:04 PM:

Just chiming in...

I had some 6k reels with fixed hub and those things can be lethal even at moderate speeds! [Eek!]

A floating hub is better/safer.

Still, I'm not sure if that's really the reason behind the floating hub. Anyone wanna clarify?

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 10-11-2003, 08:47 PM:

I believe they minimize edge damage, especially where slight misalignment causes the film to touch the rotating edge of the flanges, which tend to become sharp and burred with careless handling. (They should never be rolled or stored on concrete surfaces.)

With careless handling, such as rewinding at high speeds, the flanges can wear at the hub contact, enlarging the diameter of the flange hole, causing noise and vibration, especially in the cheaper ones made of softer aluminum.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-11-2003, 08:52 PM:

For platter work, I prefer the solid hub reels. Working with floaters on the bench is annoying. You can't really do "hand braking" on them. I also prefer solid hub reels for simply carrying them around the booth, as the 4 holes in the middle of a Goldberg 6000' floater will cut your fingers off.

But to your answer, the floating hub reels are so a reel to reel setup can get the reel spinning fast enough so it does not allow slack to develop between the soundhead's holdback sprocket and the takeup reel. If slack develops, it will break acetate film or rip polyester film past the sprockets. It's merely a weight issue. I'll show you when you visit.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 10-11-2003, 10:04 PM:

Graphite lock lube applied with cotton swabs(let dry before using reels)?

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-12-2003, 07:59 AM:

My method: I used to set the bad reel on a rewind bench spindle, apply a liberal amount of lube (I used to use projector oil - but that might weld Estar film these days, if it finds its way to the film), turn the rewind on full speed, and just grab that flange and hold it still while it cleaned itself out and the oil worked its way inside. It'll raise three kinds of hell at first and I'd sometimes get a call from downstairs about the noise, but in a few seconds, it'll start to free up and spin smoother. Then you can add a bit more lube to finish the job, or until it spins freely. Keep some paper towels handy, because all the dirt and grime will start being flung outward on the flange (don't forget the inside). After a few high speed spins and cleans, the reel will be good as new.

Btw, the hubs that you can take apart (held together with big screws) have been repaired with the Goldberg kit.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 10-12-2003, 11:13 AM:

Hey
Try some Film Guard on those hubs. Can't hurt the film

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-12-2003, 05:29 PM:

quote:
A floating hub is better/safer.

Still, I'm not sure if that's really the reason behind the floating hub. Anyone wanna clarify?

When I used towers for film transports, a floating hub reel was required on the takeups. It's a lot easier to get a floating hub turning than an entire reel. Using a fixed-hub reel generally guaranteed film damage or fail-safe drop-outs at startup... even with slow-start machines.

The Eprad Double-Muts & Sword transports didn't seem to care, though. They worked equally well with floating or fixed-hub reels.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-13-2003, 12:40 AM:

If you ever check the patent on the Goldberg floating hub "EZ" reels...you will be surprised to find that the patent relates to a ....

Self-threading reel! If you recall back in your home movie days with the likes of 8mm...the take up reel was sent spinning at full speed as the auto-thread mechanism forced the film through thed projector. When it came out, the film would enter the take-up reel where it would catch near the hub (often there were hooks down there or just a wavy spring to pinch the film or a combination. The idea in the patent was so when the film caught....the hub ONLY would jerk to a stop and the flanges would not impart their stored energy into the film.

I've never seen a Goldberg Auto-thread reel but have used tons of their standard floaters (with the patent number on the hub). For reel-to-reel operation over 15"...they are the best way to fly (floating hubs, regardless of manufacture).

Steve

Posted by Philippe Laude (Member # 79) on 10-13-2003, 07:51 AM:

I just HATE floating hub reels. As Brad says you can't "hand brake' them, unless you pinch the flanges against the film, horrible!
I don't know Goldberg ones, I've only worked with Cinemeccanica 18000'ones. To my knowledge they were born to help their tower at starting, to somehow fight the inertia, preventing the slack in film winding.

A floating hub reel is totally useless on a well designed tower. If a tower can handle the weight of a print it must be capable of handling the extra weight of both flanges, which represents but a small fraction of the weight of the print.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-13-2003, 08:24 AM:

Avoid using lubricants that may get oil or particles (graphite) onto the film.

Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 10-13-2003, 05:42 PM:

That was exactly why posed the question.
What I found after breaking them down was a film like grease, but it is a dryer substence with a white color similar to lithium grease that has been discolored slightly grey by the aluminum hubs. What ever they used has a real tendency to dry out over time.

I rejected using oil, graphite and any petrolium based grease for the exact reasons mentioned by John P. and I was considering a silicon type lubricant.

From what I can see, the lubricant that was used never made it past the hub, and I'm sure that friction could possibaly make some lubricants liquify and run beyond them.

From using silicon dry lubes in the past, they tend to ball up as they dry when used in a moving rotation situation and I am unsure of the abrasiveness of silicon.

Any more thoughts?

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-27-2010, 01:20 PM:

It has been 2328 days since the last post.

Posted by Jim Bedford (Member # 4) on 02-27-2010, 01:20 PM:

I've searched but can't find the exact answer I need, although Tim Reed's comments come close.

The floating flanges on our floating hub 5K and 6K reels are getting gunked up in the tracks on the hub. The reels are riveted and can not be easily taken apart. How do I get the gunk out and then what do I lubricate them with when they are clean that will reduce the chances of them gunking up again?

Tim's suggestions leaves out how to extract all the dirt in the tracks. Is there a way (high pressure spray of air or something, spin the gunk out, etc.) to really clean the tracks and the flanges where they fit into the tracks, or is this the best that can be done?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-27-2010, 03:41 PM:

You can get a reel-repair-kit from any Goldberg dealer and I think Wolk still offers their "sav-a-reel" screw on rivots. Thus, you can drill out the rivets...pull the whole thing apart, clean, lubricate and put it back together. Once you have the screw on rivets, you can clean them when ever you want. Also, you may find the core needs to be changed, particularly if it is a 5/16" keyed type...they always wear out...particularly on larger reels.

As for a lubricant that won't get gunked up...I don't know of any.

Steve

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 02-27-2010, 03:42 PM:

I can't speak to floating hub reels in particular, but the standard approach to such mechanical systems is to flood them with a volatile solvent and let that pull out the dirt and grime, and then follow it with enough lubricant to get the solvent out.

Using compressed air can dramatically help this process along.

In this case, I would probably start with WD40 as a solvent. If that wasn't good enough, you could use kerosene. But if you do, make sure you follow it with enough light oil to get the kerosene out of the way and restore real lubrication (this also applies with WD40, but it's not quite so critical). You might also follow the light oil with grease (or, if you Zirc fittings for grease injection, just start off with grease).

If you're really stuck getting the gunk out, and if there is sufficient access to insert compressed air, you can also clean with a degreaser like Simple Green, and then flush with water, and then follow with air to get the water out. This is probably the most effective approach (because you can flood with a LOT of water), but you need to make sure you can adequately get the water out (again, compressed air is generally sufficient).

--jhawk
(who PM'd several ball-bearing casters this way yesterday)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 02-27-2010, 05:11 PM:

I really wish my floating hub reels would seize permanently. I wish they were mine to trade for solid hub reels, but alas they are not. Is there any way for me to expedite the seizing process? Floating hub reels shouldn't even be allowed in platter booths unless the print was transferred that way from a changeover theater.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 02-27-2010, 05:22 PM:

Wouldn't there be a way to take it apart like mentioned above then weld the pieces together? Granted, this assumes you have access to welding gear.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 02-27-2010, 05:38 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Is there any way for me to expedite the seizing process?

14 lb. sledge works wonders.

As for lubrication, one drop of kerosene ONLY.

The kero can be used to flush out the gunk and after removing, one drop will lubricate the flanges.

Kero is used in the metal trade for lubricating cutting tools when working on aluminium. It sounds weird, but it works and works well.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 02-27-2010, 10:57 PM:

Kerosene evaporates and leaves a very very thin coat. I'd seriously question leaving it for any mechanical system -- you'd have to relubricate fairly frequently for it to persist, I think.

Of course, if you clean with kerosene and let evaporate, then you could follow with dry lube (graphite).

--jhawk