Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton E Series

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Posted by Tim Killen (Member # 404) on 10-19-2003, 07:58 PM:

Just Wondering if anybody out there has had any experience with the E series projectors from Kinoton. Was wondering what issues you may have had, and suggestions as to what spare parts would be handy to have on hand that differ from the D Series Projector.

TK

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-19-2003, 09:51 PM:

We installed 4 last year. No problems with regular use. Assuming the gate parts are the same as the D type, no pecial parts needed. The E drive stuff is all expensive and probably not worth keeping on hand - the motor or circuit boards may fail but a full set would be a huge investment.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 10-21-2003, 04:20 PM:

We are installing the FP25E tomorrow. First one for us. I am looking forward to it. I'll let you know how it goes.

There is a recommended spare parts list but it is at my office. Also some contacts for some great folks with good answers to everything Kinoton. I'll post again later.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 10-27-2003, 09:41 AM:

Tim,
I agree with Dave about stocking a lot of stuff for the E drive. Those parts aren't cheap, and they rarely fail. Sort of like: would you stock a Geneva movement?

I'd certianly stock things like framing lamps and gate parts (skate and runner strips; they are not the same as a D - because of the different intermittent sprocket). Other stuff like sprockets, apertures, belts, etc...it depends on your situation. For example Bill might want to stock more than some folks because he is on a government installation in a foreign country.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-27-2003, 11:42 AM:

I generally make sure there is a complete set of wearable parts as spares. As mentioned...Skates and runner strips (the runner strips are included in the accessory kit), belts, O-rings (for the sound pinch roller and accellerator if you have it).

Steve

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 10-28-2003, 02:47 AM:

Good heads up Larry. We are are at the end of the food chain out here but so far are getting pretty good support out of Tokyo.

In about an hour we will be showing our first movie to the public. So far this machine is a sweetheart. It is so amazing how well it thinks for you. More later.

Bill Bunch
Misawa, Japan

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-29-2003, 02:09 AM:

Tip for the E series: you can frame down forever since there is no physical limitation. Make sure you don`t make the lower loop too big, because if you frame the film down in the event of a bad splice or another emergency the loop could get so big that it hits the shutter house.
You probably already found out that the button which advances the film slowly frame by frame will make the machine forward the film at full speed without igniting the lamp if you hold it down. Since it is placed a little unhappily on the front of the projector, I would recommend you to place a little sticker with a felt surface on it so that you can always find it blindly.
Do you have an automatic lens turret? These can be touchy and go out of alignment. There is a little board with which you can quickly realign it. Ask your dealer for the board. They should give it to you for free since you bought a complete new machine.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 10-30-2003, 10:32 PM:

Thanks, Michael !

I'm not sure which button you speak of for 'frame-by-frame' function but will look for it. We have several unlabled buttons on the console.

You are correct about the auto turret. My installers played with that for a long while. Sometimes when we change lenses manually it will fumble and stop in between. But I have noticed that it never fails to land perfectly when activated by the automation. So far anyway.

I sat through the movie "Grind" last night. Not my kind of movie for sure but one thing I did notice was the extreme detail in the film with good contrast and color saturation from corner to corner. I praise the Kinoton lamphouse on this machine. It is highly efficient at what it does. It gets all the light through the film and out to the screen. So easy to focus!

Any other querks about this machine that you know of, please pass them along. We are extremely happy with its performance.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-31-2003, 12:08 AM:

I mean the button which transports the film slowly frame by frame so that you can check your framing in the aperture. If you hold it down, it will speed the projector up to regular speed. This function can be customized, you can program the machine for how quickly you want to accelerate to full speed.
The button should be labeled POS (as in position).

Posted by Mark Hathaway (Member # 1044) on 10-31-2003, 06:12 AM:

William,

the turret issue is easily fixed, it probably only needs programming.

If you are an authorized Kinoton dealer, ask the factory for a turret programming card and the software to properly program the turret card. The latest programming card has a rs-232 interface to connect to a notebook with kinoton's software. The problem *might* also be the aperture/turret control card over the top of the aperture changer in the back of the projector.

As far as quality goes, the FP30E is my favorite, an amazingly steady image.

Mark Hathaway

Atlab Image and Sound Technology

Melbourne, Australia

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-01-2003, 06:37 PM:

I found the POS button, Michael and now I see what you mean. I can hold it down and it will run up to speed.

Can you explain the proper use of the plastic knurled knob on the constant speed sprocket below the gate?

We are still learning stuff.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-01-2003, 06:41 PM:

It is for forwarding the projector manually. But that is a bit tedious. You can actually take it off. Using the step-by-step function is much better. Remember to put a little sticker or a felt pad on it so you can find it without looking. Are your controls on the front of the projector or is there a little control panel attached to the projector, facing the operator? I mean the controls on the projector, not the tableau on the wall.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-02-2003, 05:34 AM:

All the control buttons are in the square box and the box is fastened to the side facing the operator. It's right under the sound head. This box is connected by a flexible cable so it could be placed in other areas too.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-04-2003, 04:58 AM:

Now here is something I found interesting today while studying the FP25E. When the machine is first started the intermittent sprocket runs as a constant speed sprocket until full speed is achieved. Then it snaps into the "intermittent" mode.

I wonder what is the reason for this and what advantages are achieved. Not complaining. Just wondering. Actually this machine is a real dreamship and one would have to look hard to find something to complain about. I love it.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-04-2003, 05:06 PM:

The Christie Epic does that too, it's SO quiet until the intermittent goes into show mode!

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-04-2003, 05:43 PM:

William--just out of curiousity, why did you choose the FP-25E over the FP-30E or FP-60E? The FP-25 looks like it was designed more for portable use than the FP-30 (which is a full-size theatre projector.

Have they finally fixed the changeover douser issue? The older models (up until a few years ago, at least) have changeovers that open faster than they close, causing an overlap of a couple of frames at each changeover.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-04-2003, 08:57 PM:

The FP-25 is a full sized cinema unit....there is no carry handle on the top [Wink]

It should be called a "transportable". In Asia large reel transports are more common than we are used to in the USA so it should be a good choice. One feature on the E series is the intermittent sprocket, which moves so blindly fast, it will bite you if your fingers are in the wrong place; when setting the pull down for threading...operators learn that feature very quickly. The rolling start up allows for the encoders and sensors to sync up prior to projecting intermittently. Image stability improves inperceptably the first few seconds of intermittent operation as the control circuity averages more data. Nice piece of engineering [Big Grin]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-04-2003, 09:03 PM:

Are you saying that you actually have to set the pull down, as in time it or set it in the dwell position? Don't you just thread in frame wherever the sprocket stops?

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-05-2003, 08:21 PM:

Scott: This is very much a full size cinema machine. The main reason we chose this model is because of our microscopic broom closet sized booth. We have no room for platters. The footprint of the FP25E is very compact including feed and takeup. That is probably how it earned a "portable" classification. Not small on performance however.

Richard: The runup procedure makes sense. I understand it now. As for the lightning speed of the intermittent, I actually had to put a little paint mark on the side of the wheel just to be sure it was actually turning. Even when using the "POS" button during threading it is almost impossible to see the frames change. That is with the machine in the stopped mode. There is no in-between. You are either on frame "A" or frame "B" and never between. Amazingly fast.

Daryl: As soon as the machine is powered up the intermittent sprocket is set at dead center. Once you frame the film in the gate then it is always framed. No need to "find" the shutter position prior to threading.

Tim: Are you still out there getting all this down? Interesting?

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

Posted by Tim Killen (Member # 404) on 11-05-2003, 11:10 PM:

Thanks for all the info guys. I am waiting with baited breath. Hopefully our FP30E is only a week or two away. Was wondering Bill if your 25E has the new movable turret, if so, how's it working out for you. This is has only been introduced in recent times and haven't actually seen one yet.

TK

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 11-05-2003, 11:24 PM:

We only recently took possession of a new FP-25E with a three-lens turret. It's very cramped threading as the lenses are quite close to the gate. It's taken a little while to get used to the delay in the intermittent starting up. I was very used to starting the motor and opening the dowser almost immediately on our Ballantine Pro-35's. But the picture is very stable.

We purchased an FP25-E because of the large spool "tower" underneath the lamphouse. We've always use MUTT spools instead of a platter system.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-06-2003, 02:08 AM:

quote:
It's taken a little while to get used to the delay in the intermittent starting up. I was very used to starting the motor and opening the dowser almost immediately on our Ballantine Pro-35's.

So you usually treat your audience to the analog sound starting up?

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 11-06-2003, 02:25 AM:

I'm sorry. What a bitter remark about my attitude to my audience.

I find the beginning of films, and especially digital logos are quite silent. I've never encountered a problem with audio startup.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-06-2003, 04:29 AM:

Tim, we have the two lens automatic turret. It works in conjunction with both dowsers and is really pretty fast. It also changes the apertures.

We were using Simplex XL in a changeover format up until now. With the Kinoton the whole feature is on one reel. We are using automation for things like startup, lens change and show end. The EMK automation that came with the FP25E is impressive but we are still in the learning process. That, and this is my first one so can't compare it with anything else.

The big reels are a plus for us. This is a military theater so the room is small and features run one day on and three days off and slide all over the calendar according to popularity. For us it is better than platters.

Hope you enjoy your new system as much as we are. I am involved in theaters only one percent of my job. The other 99 percent is maintenance of food service equipment, mainly refrigeration cooking systems. I can really appreciate good engineering when it comes my way.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 11-06-2003, 01:56 PM:

The EMK is a great automation. It won`t be difficult for you to figure all the options out when you have a little time to play with it. What is really great is that the delay between lines can be edited in 1 second steps. You can make it work with light and curtains as if operated manually.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-06-2003, 07:19 PM:

quote:
I am involved in theaters only one percent of my job. The other 99 percent is maintenance of food service equipment, mainly refrigeration cooking systems

Well, if Ballantyne can't sell you projectors at least they can sell you deep fat friers. [Embarrassed]

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-06-2003, 08:59 PM:

Really!? Just what I need. Another fryer.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-06-2003, 09:27 PM:

Recycle that unused Simplex oil to give your chicken a golden sheen [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-06-2003, 09:34 PM:

When used for deep frying, used projector oil is a good source of iron. [Wink]

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-06-2003, 10:33 PM:

Good ideas! The guys over at Popeyes are taking orders for their Thanksgiving turkeys. I'll ask if they need some more oil. One thing for sure I have a surplus of Simplex oil now. The Kinoton is a low thirst machine. At least the "E" version is.

Posted by Tim Killen (Member # 404) on 11-06-2003, 11:39 PM:

Sorry, I should have been a little more specific. I meant Kinoton have developed a turret which moves away from the gate assembly to make threading a little easier and to make the area a bit more open and accessible. In the past all Kinotons and Phillips have had a fixed turret whether it be single, double or a triple auto turret. As far as I'mm aware this has only been made available in the last couple of months.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 11-07-2003, 12:28 AM:

Tim, Now I understand what you are refering to. I saw another thread in here someplace mentioning a new Kinoton turret that unlatches and slides forward about 20cm to make threading easier. I don't have that feature on my FP25E. Extra space in this area would be nice to have but we are not having any difficulty threading the gate. Yes, it is tight. If you end up receiving this on your machine that would be a nice plus.

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 11-07-2003, 03:53 AM:

Yes, that extra space would be helpful. Our FP25E was delivered only 4 weeks ago and it has the fixed turret.
One problem we had was that our anamorphic lens is an antique and has a large diameter, so large that the picture from our W/S lens hits the anamorphic - shows as a barely imperceptible shadow on our screen. Maybe we better update our anamorphic.

But the major problem encountered (should have been anticipated) was that we wanted to use 5000m spools, so the projector was jacked up twice (the base and a spacer between the base and the lamphouse) so that the lens height was increased beyond our port height. Had to modify the port.

Peter

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-07-2003, 05:35 AM:

The turret that slides forward was originally used on their studio series of machine and is now available on the cinema models....but depending who is distributing Kinoton in your market, you may have to request this feature. This is not a field replaceable option since it requires a different projector chassis plate. The wide angle lenses that have become popular with the more recent short throw to "wall to wall" screens with the rear element close to the trap make this an consideration for new installs. There is also a kit to limit the travel of the opening of the gate for threading to avoid banging the lens but I considered that a [puke]

option.