Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Simplex 1050 W/Old style Tu-2000

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Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 10-20-2003, 11:32 AM:

Hello - We are currently rebuilding a bunch of Simplex 1050's with the old-style turrets (the ones that open and close with a motor) and we have 2 different types of controller units for them. The older type (presumably) that I have conforms to the drawings in the manual, and all terminations are silkscreened to the chassis. The newer type uses a different type of termination block, and is not labeled. The board is completely different, and uses solid state timers rather than time-delay relays, cams and microswitches. Anyone got a clue about this? No one at Strong seems to be able to provide any insight, and I need to test these things as soon as possible. Thanks in advance

Matt

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 10-20-2003, 07:50 PM:

The controler you are talking about is it the one were you have a flip switch to open the turret and one button to push to turn the lenses back and fourth?

Another controler is the one they use on the 1060's that has a push button for flat and one for scope. Are these what you are talking about?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-20-2003, 08:05 PM:

Matt,
Really the best favor you can do for yourself and your customers/theatres is to manualize the turretts. Remove the motors and other junk as they are NEVER RELIABLE.....ever. As a manual turrett they are passable but go out of alignment, and adjustment quite frequently. With the common availability of trailers in both scope and flat formats AUTO turretts are not really a necessity any longer. If you don't you will forever be running calls on them..... which you will be doing anyway but less frequently if they are made manual.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-20-2003, 08:16 PM:

I couldn't agree with Mark more. They aren't worth the hassle of upkeep. Just use the manual latch below the unused lens and remove the motors and make 'em manual. [Smile]

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 10-21-2003, 12:26 AM:

In theory, I couldn't agree with both of you more. I hate these motorized abortions. Unfortunately, these machines were handed over to me for rebuild as-is... in other words, here they are...rebuild them. That doesn't mean disconnect the motors and pretend they were never there, as much as I wish it did. AND to make matters worse, the 1050 turrets are held in place under stall - according to the manual, "the weight of the scope lens should hold the turret in place"...in the event of failure of the mechanism. Given the fact that I have 8 projectors with as of now 3 different control units, none of which conform even 50%to the Strong manuals at my disposal, and nobody at Strong knows what I am talking about, I am forced to leave the turrets to someone else to hash out as the time spent figuring this crap out will far outweigh any potential profit. Hopefully either I will find some early-Strong-turret-messiah, or the end-user of these projectors will decide that the turrets need not be mechanized. Help still sought...

Yes, Darryl - one spst to open/close and a dpdt "reset" switch. The oldest using 3 microswitches mounted in some kinda hokey-fashion onto a solenoid (what the hell IS that!!!!) with 2 PC boards vertical (time delays) and 2 24vac realys (4pdt); the newest using a coupla solid state timers and standard pc-mount relays. pinouts between each model do not correspond in any respect, tho they all say tu2000E...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2003, 08:16 AM:

Matt,
There is always the Kelmar Turrett and trap that you could use instead. It works really well.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2003, 03:32 PM:

I have to agree with the majority on this one. You'll really be a LOT happier if you just disconnect all those motorized gizmos and make them all manual. They are just a damn hassle to keep them working right.

If it was just ME and people I trusted to work the booth I would have no problem with making them all work. We who know all of the little tricks involved in running them would have less difficulty making them work as well as they can. However, you KNOW that the people who will be using them won't have the "mental bandwidth" that you and I do. They would be totally overwhelmed when it comes to the myriad adjustments and tweeks that it takes to run them.

Isn't that ironic? A labor-saving device that actually causes MORE work?!

So... YOU know that it's better to strip all the motors off them. *I* know it's better. How do you convince the bosses that it's better? Easy! Hit 'em in the pocketbook! Sit down and make a list of all the parts you'll need to fix them up. Don't be stingy. If you think you MIGHT need it, add it all in. You know if you skimp you'll be sorry later on! Make your cost estimates as high as you reasonably can. Then you go to the boss and say, "It will cost $1,000 per machine (or whatever the price) to buy all the parts we need to make them work."

Of course, the boss will shrink at the price tag! Then you scratch your head and think for a minute. Perk up your face and say, "Hey! I have an idea! Let's just strip the extra junk off them and turn them into "manual" turrets! We can save X-thousand dollars and they'll work just fine!"

It's a sure bet they boss will say, "Screw it! Turn them into manual turrets!" [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-21-2003, 09:29 PM:

Randy,
You should have run for Governer of California!! It couldn't have been said better....

Just remember that even as a manual turrett they still suck and are barely passable!

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2003, 10:07 PM:

I had three theaters full of these bastards. Every single one of them was a bitch to keep working.

IF they were kept scrupulously clean...
IF the linkages and clutches were kept tight and lubricated...
IF the lensboard bearings were kept in alignment...
IF the stop brackets were kept adjusted...
IF the lens eccentric/centering adjusements were checked...
IF 100 other things were kept in sync all the time...

You STILL had to contend with motors burning out and clutch plates wearing out and a 1/2 dozen other things going wonky. Granted, they only took a minute to adjust sometimes but when I had a booth full of Popper Jockeys who barely knew how to thread I cringed at the though of instructing one of them to take a screwdriver to any part of the machine!

So every week I'd get a call from one theater or another saying, "The picture is off the screen...", etc, etc. The standard answer was, "Oh, just take a screwdriver and adjust the... Ummm... Forget it. I'll be right over." I'd spend all my time doing piss ant maintainence on these three theaters that, sometimes, I couldn't get anything else done. I'd walk into a theater and find shit like THIS:

(Followed by a plea for an emergency order of splicing tape, of course! [Mad]

)

I finally had enough of that shit and started ripping the motors off them. Life IMMEDIATELY started getting better! Once taught to turn the turret by hand and to latch the lensboard shut and to slip the aperture plate in/out by hand problems started evaporating.

Some wise-ass theater manager decided to call the Dist. Mgr. and complain that "Randy is tearing our projectors apart...". Next time he saw me he started asking what/why I was doing that. I told him my story. I showed him the picture above. I showed him the price list and gave hime a quick estimate of how much it would cost to put everthing back the way it "should be". $1,000 per projector was a conservative estimate too!

His answer was, "Screw it! Turn them into manual turrets!"

End of story.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-21-2003, 10:23 PM:

Looks like that theater needs a proper film cleaner. The sprockets are covered in purple dust.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-21-2003, 10:31 PM:

No shit?! [Wink]

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 10-21-2003, 10:37 PM:

Well, at least they found a use for zebra tape!

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 10-22-2003, 08:50 AM:

The level of purple emulsion debris on that projector indicates that either it is NEVER cleaned, or has a significant problem (hooked sprocket teeth, misaligned film path). A bit of purple dusting on a print fresh from the lab is not unusual (during processing the gelatin emulsion swells over the film edges and perforations, and upon drying, may not shrink back completely, leaving a slight "overhang" that may get scuffed off during the first few runs), but the amount shown in the photo is very excessive. Definitely use a film cleaner to remove any debris generated, either normal or excessive.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 10-22-2003, 09:00 AM:

Hell, when I worked with those type turrets I had some that had pins broken in them, some where the wires to the motor burnt in half. Then we spent all this time fixing them. I told them next time to hell with it just leave em like they are and do it manualy. On those in Randy's picture I just got to the point the only time I opened them was to clean the machine. I could thread them in the closed position with no problems. Sometimes I would have to lock them down anyway just to keep them from shaking sideways. This is even after I made the adjustmenst to prevent the side weave.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-22-2003, 10:14 AM:

John,

Your first guess is the right one!
The projector never got cleaned except when I came to the theater and did it myself. I have dozens of pictures of projectors like this that I used as evidence of the damage and neglect that I found when I went to a site.

Do you remember a few years back when I asked you whether film dust can cause allergic reactions? This was one of the reasons. I was working on projectors that were, sometimes, caked with film dust.

OK. Back to the turret.
There's a pinion gear that's attached to a vertical shaft in the hinge of this turret. There's a motor/clutch that drives that gear to keep the turret closed. Half of the machines in this building had broken gears. (There's a shear pin arrangement in there.) There was a point when I was all ready to replace them. We were in the middle of ordering parts, even. Right about that time is when we decided that it wasn't worth it.

With people running the booth who take care of the machines like you see in the picture above, what's the use?!