This is topic framing: which way is up? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005522

---

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-06-2003, 03:01 AM:
 
when i say i'm framing up, what i mean is that i'm moving the image onscreen up relative to the frame. do i have this wackbards?

carl
 

---

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 11-06-2003, 04:04 AM:
 
When i use the term frame up, I mean turning the knob down to make the image higher in the frame.

But now that you mention it, I don't know if thats right.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-06-2003, 06:00 AM:
 
Framing "up" or "down" usually refers to the direction the frame moves on screen. Of course, in the projector gate, it's in the opposite direction, since the lens changes orientation.
 

---

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-06-2003, 10:50 AM:
 
I just try to remember that on my X-L's (okay...Simplex 35's but they're still X-L's to me) the backside of the framing knob, if rotated, moves in the direction as the image will on the screen. I would call moving the image up on the screen (reducing headroom) "framing up" and vice versa.
 

---

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 11-06-2003, 11:11 AM:
 
Then there are those bad moments when you frame up (or down) and run out of movement just before the frame line goes off screen and you have to go all the way the other direction.
 

---

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 11-06-2003, 02:44 PM:
 
The solution to that is to center the framing mechanism so the it is in the center travel position. Basically two sprocket holes one way or the other.

Of course you could do like Brad says, (he will probably be posting this in this thread, Just lock down the framing knob so it won't turn and thread in frame.
 

---

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 11-06-2003, 03:34 PM:
 

quote:

---

Of course you could do like Brad says, (he will probably be posting this in this thread, Just lock down the framing knob so it won't turn and thread in frame.

---

And SPLICE in frame, of course. Film Done Right!
 

---

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 11-06-2003, 04:52 PM:
 
As to which direction makes the fram go up...

On my Simplex: Turning the framing knob CLOCKWISE rotates the intermittent the same direction, thus pulling the film farther down in the gate. This would cause the image on the screen to appear to rise. Turning the knob in the opposite direction would naturally have the opposite effect. On the off-operator's side knob, since you would be facing in the opposite direction you would have to turn the knob COUNTER-CLOCKWISE to raise the image.

On my Century: Turning the framing knob CLOCKWISE racks the intermittent downward. The film is pulled farther into the gate. The image appears to rise on the screen.

In summary, turning the knob so that the BACK SECTION of the knob goes upward will make the image appear to move upward on the screen.

Locking the framing knob is all well and good if you don't have to fudge playback of different aspect ratios. My situation is different on several counts.

Right now, I only have 1.85 and 2.39 lens/aperture sets. If I get a 1.75 or 1.66 print I will have to play it through my 1.85 lens. I may have to frame it up or down to make the subtitles fit on the screen. Furthermore, there are a few prints which, not only come in funky aspect ratios (defined as those I don't have lens sets for) but also have frame registration (printing) differences which require framing adjustments at reel changes.

Locking the framing knob would totally screw my presentation in these situations!

When I get the new lenses for my Simplex I hope to rectify this problem. I still won't lock the knob, though. First, I'm not the only one running the machine anymore and the other people still make mistakes, though they try hard to do it right. It wouldn't be fair to them. Second, I'm not willing to interrupt a show full of paying customers just to make an adjustment that COULD have been done in mere seconds had the framing knob been functional.

My solution is simply not to teach people to use the framing knob. My situation is somewhat different than most. There are as many as 3 or 4 projectionist trainees on duty with me at every show. If one of my students makes a stupid framing mistake there will be at least 2 other people standing there making fun of him! (Peer pressure is a good motivator! ) Most of our customers are regulars. They are used to seeing good presentations. If there are mistakes like that, a fairly large percentage of them WILL notice! A large percentage of THOSE people would come and complain.

If fact, last term that very situation came up! The film went out of frame for some reason. I don't know exactly why. I wasn't in the room at the time. A customer came out and complained. The incident got written up in the student newspaper. My boss came into my office and plunked the paper down on my desk, asking me, "What the hell is going on here!?" (It's bad ehough when the boss calls you into HIS office! It's even worse when the boss seeks you out in YOUR office!) I had to write that student up and threaten him with being kicked off the projection staff if he did that again. I gave him an "escape clause", though. I told him that IF he could get through the rest of the term with ZERO mistakes I would tear up the papers. He did. I kept my promise.

So, you can see why I refuse to lock the framink knob.
 

---

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-06-2003, 05:10 PM:
 

quote:

---

Of course you could do like Brad says, (he will probably be posting this in this thread, Just lock down the framing knob so it won't turn and thread in frame.

---

Oh Puhleezze! Brad doesn't know what he's talking about. There is NO guarantee that Kodak will punch the perfs in the raw print stock in the right place relative to the frame lines.

As mentioned, ALWAYS center the framing range and rack the projector to just after the pull-down before threading.

Then thread top to bottom, dragging as much of the print on the floor before winding up the take-up reel/platter to make sure the next theatre will not have a quality print. That way, all the business will come to your theatre.

>>> Phil
 

---

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-06-2003, 05:36 PM:
 
Phil you also forgot that on your 1570 run it always with the air off (save energy) and to always if possible bypass a roller and drag the print a cross a sharp non moving object
As for framing move the seats in the auditorium vertically to correct the problem
 

---

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-06-2003, 07:03 PM:
 
Of course Gordie...that goes without saying. Every Imax person knows that...right Adam?

>>> Phil
 

---

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 11-06-2003, 07:23 PM:
 
Actually, since 1570 runs horizontally, we just tell the audience to shift a seat to the left or right.

quote:

---

There is NO guarantee that Kodak will punch the perfs in the raw print stock in the right place relative to the frame lines.

---

Framelines have nothing to do with film stock. This would only be affected by film alignment in the camera or film printer before it goes to the lab for release prints (contact prints).
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-06-2003, 07:29 PM:
 
And all this time I thought you were just supposed to adjust the masking.

Way to go Adam, you just had to post truthful information.

I wish LaVezzi would put the teeth on the sprockets in the right place so that I didn't always have to set the intermittent before threading.
 

---

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-06-2003, 07:29 PM:
 
Ummm Adam...it was a joke... Duh! You sure are dense sometimes...

Daryl, I think they should lose the teeth and use pinch rollers. (Ummm Adam, that was a joke too...)

>>> Phil
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-06-2003, 07:38 PM:
 
Hey, if it works for sound heads why not.
 

---

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 11-06-2003, 08:12 PM:
 
--------------------------------------------------
And SPLICE in frame, of course. Film Done Right
--------------------------------------------------

Sometimes you get surprised when someone else spliced the print one sprocket hole off, and threads with the frame knob off center, then asks you to watch out for the bad spot where the paper towel is sticking out of the middle of the platter. Actually, the person in question is a perfectionist and miss-spliced on a fade-out. I always kept a strip of leader on the side of the rack to check those fade out splices.
 

---

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-07-2003, 05:19 AM:
 
my reason for asking was that we do need to re-frame for lens changes. it's inevitable since we have movable top masking (and side masking) but not movable bottom masking, so the different apertures are offset from each other. when a flat and scope print alternate on that screen, it must be reframed every show. i made a reminder note saying frame up for flat, frame down for scope, and just didn't want to go against convention.

i use the same trick as steve et al. the image moves the same direction as the far side of the framing knob on our centurys.

carl
 

---

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-07-2003, 06:18 AM:
 

quote:

---

Daryl, I think they should lose the teeth and use pinch rollers. (Ummm Adam, that was a joke too...)

---

quote:

---

my reason for asking was that we do need to re-frame for lens changes. it's inevitable since we have movable top masking (and side masking) but not movable bottom masking, so the different apertures are offset from each other. when a flat and scope print alternate on that screen, it must be reframed every show.

---

quote:

---

my reason for asking was that we do need to re-frame for lens changes. it's inevitable since we have movable top masking (and side masking) but not movable bottom masking, so the different apertures are offset from each other. when a flat and scope print alternate on that screen, it must be reframed every show.

---

Carl, fire your technician who set that up. He is an idiot. If you have turrets then there is simply no excuse for not pre-aligning them before he cut the aperture plates. If you have single lens holders, he could shim the lenses or use an eccentric mount to get things right during the setup. Just because it is a top masking is no excuse for you to ever have to touch the framing knob.

and yeah...lock those puppies down!
 

---

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 11-08-2003, 12:25 AM:
 
Hell if it's a single mount that you can't get shimmed right, use a pedestal with an easily (vertically) adjustable table. There's absolutely no reason to be projecting off of the optical axis.
 

---

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 11-08-2003, 01:28 AM:
 
May I also mention that a lot of the XL's and many other machines out there have an index mark on the inermittant arm that when framing is centered, lines up with a scribed line on the projector casting. You can use this as a reference.

Josh
 

---

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 11-08-2003, 03:38 AM:
 

quote:

---

Hell if it's a single mount that you can't get shimmed right, use a pedestal with an easily (vertically) adjustable table. There's absolutely no reason to be projecting off of the optical axis.

---