Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Security Guards with Metal Detector Wands?

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-15-2003, 06:59 AM:

I just ran a sneak of GOTHIKA (WB) and along with the print came the carrier who said he had to remain with the print at all times (poor guy hand no idea our booth is on the fifth floor -- no elevator!). That was a little freaky, but fine, they told me they would do this with an advance screening (it opens Nov 21). And I had no problem with it -- it's just a guy in the booth and it doesn't affect the patrons.

What they didn't tell me was that they were also sending in two Security Guards with metal detector wands to frisk my patrons! I was up in the booth when this went down so I was unaware of it or I would have raised hell.

Has this happened to anyone else? This is getting way, way out of hand. A good portion of my demographics are senior citizens. I'll be damned if in the future I am going to have some Gestapo-looking guard intimidate them and make them feel like criminals. It ruins the entire mood we try to create in our theatre. We pride ourselves on trying to have the movie-going experience unique and that our theatre has character and class. Making old ladies spread their arms and legs so they can run a search wand over their bodies is absurd.

I guarantee it won't happen again.

Any thoughts?

Frank

PS -- BTW, that little amateur piece of anti-piracy propaganda (trailer) never got played in my theatre -- in fact, I am not sure it even got back in the cans. Funny how they made sure that pile o [bs]

got put in the can but, they forgot the DTS disks!

[ 11-15-2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-15-2003, 09:09 AM:

Frank,

Yes, that would piss me off royally, but if WB is sending them out, is it a contractual obligation? The customers should voice opinions to the owner(s) who should in turn get back with WB to prevent this type of guilty until proven innocent shit from occuring in the future.

It's sad these days. No wonder so many poeple wait 90 days for the DVD release. Wonder why they don't put CRAP CODE on video release? Does Jack think DVD's can't be burned?

This whole issue gets me beside myself... I had a discussion with a partron last night regarding the antipiracy trailer... He literally asked me if we though "he" was stealing something. Needless to say, you can guess where my tirade on the MPAA and Jack Valenti went. I did let him know that plans were annouced for his stepping aside.. WOOO HOOOOO.....

Jack Valenti stepping off the helm of the MPAA.. now that is BETTER THAN SEX!!! (not really, just wanted to tie in another thread... [eyes]

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 11-15-2003, 09:47 AM:

WTF?

Ok I see it all clearly now. There IS a plot to put exhibitors out of business.
How could anyone think that this type of demeaning behavior would NOT hurt business? Look what it's done to the airline business.

Personally, if I went to a theater and they did that to me I'd tell them to go [fu]

and never return.

OTOH
If they caught people going in with knives and/or guns that looked evil, they could make them wait at the door until someone came along that looked good (and had a gun or knife) and have the good guy accompany the bad guy.

[Roll Eyes]

just kidding

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 11-15-2003, 10:58 AM:

Frank

That is old news for me here. We get that treatment from Warner and Fox on pre-release screenings. And the guards sometimes has the night-vision eyeware so they sit in on the screenings.

Posted by John Carpenter (Member # 1488) on 11-15-2003, 11:20 AM:

Universal has sent those bozos out too. [Roll Eyes]

Of course they had to "apologize" that they were not able to have any metal detecting wands - that we would never have let them use anyway. These "security guards" that were sent here looked like the security company went downtown and found 4 homeless people and put them in a polo shirt and sent them here. I would only let them stand in the vicinity of the auditorium door and then sit in the film - no searching bags, etc that they said they were to do. Of course reason being that we dont really allow backpacks or large handbags in the theatre in the first place.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 11-15-2003, 01:17 PM:

OK guys, c'mon. The practice stinks, yes and I wouldn't allow it either. But there's no need to bad-mouth the security officers. They're just doing what they were hired to do. Badmouth the distributor all you want. But the security officers are working stiffs just like you.

FYI there's an interesting article on page 23 of this month's Boxoffice. Under "Hill News" it says data is indicating that many of the pirated films out there originate from industry insiders.

Posted by Alex Rolfe (Member # 1648) on 11-15-2003, 01:48 PM:

We had "security" at a sneak of New Line's "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" earlier this fall. The courier who delivered the print had to stay with it (though not in the booth) the whole time. We were told by the marketting company that arranged the sneak that New Line's security reps would be wanding everyone, though it turned out that they just watched with their night vision goggles.

I did get the indirect impression from the marketting company, which I think deals mostly with sneaks on college campuses) that they'd gotten a lot of negative feedback about the security arrangements.

Posted by Dennis M Dow Jr (Member # 1970) on 11-15-2003, 02:51 PM:

As someone who deals with this situation all the time, it is the distributors who want the security guards there. The company does the wanding, night vision and print security.. For the most part they are great people who you can have fun with..
The problem we are all facing is Valenti has all the distributors thinking that all the bootlegs are coming from these screenings hence all the security.
Face it until Valenti is gone all this is going to continue and there is not a thing we can do about it

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-15-2003, 03:24 PM:

Look, I understand that the distribs are concerned about piracy, just like department stores are rightfully concerned about their profits flying out the door because of shoplifting (although as yet I haven't heard that they are producing an anti-shoplifting trailer to play on display screens throughout the store).

And I certainly don't have anything against the security guards -- I offered mine some coffee and got him a nice easy chair to watch me -- we even had a lively discussion with him asking lots of questions about the how everything works -- he had never seen carbon arcs and said he never thought there was so much involved running a show (he had only seen platter operation before). In fact, I wouldn't even mind security using night vision equipment in the back of the theatre, but intimidating patrons in any manner is simply crossing, not a line, but a freakin MOAT in my opinion. Besides, it is beyond any rational expectation of having the slightest impact on piracy.

The distribution end of the industry seems to have gone insane about this issue....like a idiot-servante going over and over the same irrational actions without rhyme nor reason, unable to focus on anything else, especially now with so much concrete evidence is now surfacing showing that piracy -- the real kind that produces quality bootlegs on a large scale -- that kind of piracy originates in their own house. It almost seems like as that news is surfacing, they are ignoring that known source of piracy in favor of focusing all their energy on blaming exhibition as their enemy, not the enemy within.

One the other hand, it was nice having company in the booth the whole show!

We transport the cans from the floor to the booth and back again by loading them on a winch cable that drops in front of the followspot window and then to the floor. I jokingly ask him if his instructions to stay with the print at all times meant that he had to ride the cable down with the cans. I said he was lucky they didn't handcuff the cans to his wrists. He thought that was a good one; the guy really had a good sense of humor.

Frank

Posted by Dennis M Dow Jr (Member # 1970) on 11-15-2003, 03:29 PM:

Frank
In all my shows I have never seen anyone intimidated by security. They are usually very curteous to the patrons.
I do agree that they have gotten carried away with the over security practices but I have learned to live with it.

Posted by John Stewart (Member # 989) on 11-15-2003, 03:49 PM:

I don't care that the guards make "nice" with the customers, I still think it sucks to wand patrons that have nothing more than T-shirts and shorts on (it is warm here in Austin) and not even the smallest camcorders could be hid. I don't think the guards really knew what they were looking for. The 2 that came into the booth were not happy until I had wound the film off the shipping reels onto the house reels and into the film safe. Like I could copy a film by simple winding it. Once they left, I locked the doors and didn't even let them back in. I put the cans out for them and left when it was over. This week the same guards didn't even bother to come up the 5 floors to the booth. The governor and Crow arrived at the theater after the film to do Q & A so the security certainly wasn't for them. The film company rep was a pain in the butt too. She got in the governor's face explaining what the schedual was. He told her that his people took care of that not her. His guards wanted to toss her out of the building which would have been alright with everyone else that had to deal with her. She was a royal pain.

John

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-10-2003, 04:35 PM:

LAPD Captain Busted for Alleged Sale of Pirated Movies

A Los Angeles police captain with 28 years at the department was arrested at the Hollywood area station today for allegedly selling pirated & counterfeit DVD movies.

>>>OFF SITE LINKS WITHOUT PASTED TEXT DELETED FROM POST PER F.A.Q.<<<

Now if only NYPD would get to work on the same matter.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-10-2003, 05:07 PM:

I guess I'd have to be making a pot-o-money on the bootleg stuff to risk a 28 year career over it.

Amazing [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-11-2003, 03:00 AM:

Did it say what the source was of the bootlegged material? Bet the good Capytan wasn't going into theatres with a video camera under his trench coat. Bet he had a someone well connected in the industry possibly in a lab or studio and he was getting some really good source material. Hell, being a police Captain, I bet he had a lot of opportunity to shake down plenty of industry people to get the good transfers. Bet none of this stuff csme from the projection booth or movie-off-the-screen route.

When is the MPAA going to get it through their aging skulls where they should be focusing more of their anti-piracy energies?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-11-2003, 04:42 AM:

Frank, like I said somewhere before, MPAA blames everyone except themselves.

Just like the latest news on Microsoft's new OS that is going to be released a couple of years from now. It is already in the bootleg market overseas.

There is only one major place the "leaks" could come from....the employees or executives of the companies themselves.

This apples not only to the MPAA or the RIAA. By now, everyone knows it applies to other high and low profile industrial organizations as well as those who have access to the raw unreleased product within our own industry.

Many of us who are news junkies read about the corruption being exposed in the higher echelon more and more every day.

...all for the almighty buck that someone could stuff in their pocket.

As a spinoff from what Harry Truman said in the late 1930's when he was a senator...."The problem is that the people worship money...." That was over 63 years ago....How true it is today. More so now than ever before.

Beware...it will only get worse. The world is going to hell in a hand basket. [Roll Eyes]

There are three major moral principles I believe in:
1. Honesty with others as well as myself.
2. The truth will always prevail in the long run.
3. If a person lies, they will lie to justify the lies. Then they forgot what they lied about. That's when they get caught.

I would sooner tell the truth even if the truth might hurt. I like to be able to sleep at night because I don't have to spin a lie to justify a lie. [Smile]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-11-2003, 07:08 AM:

So Paul, I noticed you posted that at 2:42 AM PST.... Couldn't sleep? [Wink]

>>> Phil

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-11-2003, 02:41 PM:

Although I don't usually discuss my sleeping hours, I generally get to bed between the hours of 0001 to 0300. Someimes later. [Razz]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-11-2003, 04:22 PM:

Let's really fuck with these people!

How about getting a whole bunch of people to put balls of aluminum foil in their pockets and go through the "security lines" en masse?
[evil]

After about the 10th person in a row went through the lines, the rest of the folks in line behind them would be about ready to stage a revolt! With several coordinated attacks all across the country I bet the studios would be shitting their pants! [Big Grin]

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-12-2003, 10:09 AM:

Frank
The link was deleted by the mods, but it wasn't a "HE" it was a "SHE".

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-12-2003, 11:18 AM:

quote:
But there's no need to bad-mouth the security officers. They're just doing what they were hired to do.

Most security guards I've dealt with are cop wannabes. They couldn't pass the test or whatever, who knows? Many start their days thinking, 'This could be the day I get to shoot somebody'.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-13-2003, 02:22 PM:

I would simply not let them search me. Waving a metal-detection wand over my body is a search. I would stand there, holding up the line until they either A) Let me into the movie without further harassment or 2) Call the police to have me arrested, at which time they can be free to search me, afterwards hitting the theater, distributor, AND police department with a lawsuit for false arrest after they found nothing.

Even when the stupid door buzzers go off at Best Buy (almost EVERY time I bought something there) and some minimum-wage zit-faced "security personnell" want to look in my bags, I tell them to call the cops if they want to search me. Then they let me go. I'm not going to have someone with a double-digit IQ rooting through my bags because the one with the single-digit IQ at the register didn't do their job.

People have become so "ready and willing" to let anyone with a badge and a uniform [sex]

them in the name of "security." Security is an illusion. Gothika(1of2).avi is proof.

Rant over for now.

=TMP=

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 12-13-2003, 02:28 PM:

They don't have to search you and they don't have to let you in to see the film either.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-13-2003, 11:56 PM:

They don't have to look through all of your posessions even IF the alarm goes off!

If you go through the "gate" and the alarm goes off, they can simply hold your bag(s) while you walk through again. If the alarm doesn't go off when your hands are empty the "guard" knows that one or more of the bags they are holding in their hands has the item with the security tag in it. All the guy has to do is pass each bag he is holding through the gate, one at a time, until he finds the one that makes the alarm go off. He only has to look through any bag that makes the alarm go off.

If the alarm goes off when you pass through the gate and you are NOT holding any bags the guard can ask you to take off your coat and wave it through the gate. If the coat makes the alarm sound he should ask you to take things out of the pockets and repeat the test until the object that caused the alarm is found.

If you are not wearing a coat or holding any bags the guy only has to ask you to empty your pockets and repeat the test until the object that caused the alarm is found.

If, by this time, no object has been found the guard has two options: 1) Let you go. 2) Ask you to accompany him/her to the store office where the matter can be sorted out in private.

IF the guard elects to take option #2 and you try to refuse he has the right to suspect you of doing something you shouldn't be. However, if he doesn't find anything to prove that you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing his (and the company's) ass could be in hot water! At this point the guard has two more options: A) Call the cops. B) Issue you a written apology and let you go.

If he calls the cops and they decide to let you go it's almost certain that you could sue for false arrest! The guard must have a documentable reason why he should have suspected you. If he doesn't the company has little or no defense. If at any time the company had reasond to believe you are innocent they should have defaulted to solution "B". It would probably be a good idea for the company to give you something in return for your trouble... A gift certificate, A refund for your purchase or better still CASH MONEY!

Whether the incident takes place in a retail store or a theater the situation is similar. Ian is right, up to a point. The company doesn't have to let customers in who don't obey the rules but they DO have to take reasonable precautions to make sure they don't incriminate law abiding citizens in public.

If people at the theater (or studios) suspect some of the customers may be breaking some rule they can take steps to prevent it. Are they looking for weapons? They had better be able to justify why they are looking for weapons at THIS particular show and not others. (eg: Midnite shows have a higher incidence of violence OR violence has erupted at showings of this or similarly themed features before.) Furthermore, they had better be prepared to search for weapons at all similar events in the future. (AND pay for the security guards!)

Are they looking for recording equipment? Well, then. They had better think. A 100 pound pimple-faced kid wearing nothing but a T-shirt and short pants has little chance of smuggling in electronic equipment. Searching somebody like that is pretty unreasonable. If the kid is wearing a bulky jacket which COULD hide some equipment the guards had better think of something they could do beside a full search. Maybe they could have simply asked him to take off his jacket and searched IT?

Businesses have the right to protect their assets. Stores have the right to guard against shoplifting to protect their property. By extension, a theater's property is the movie. A theater has the right to take all reasonable means to protect that property just as a store does. However, that store or theater had DAMN WELL BETTER have a policy in place that details when and how to search people. It ALSO needs to detail what is to happen in the event somebody is found to be breaking the rules. If they don't have a set (written) policy and a problem occurs they COULD be getting themselves into hot watter!

This is why I said that a whole bunch of people should go through the lines with balls of aluminum foil in their pockets. It's a harmless act that will make it VERY inconvenient for the studios to justify themselves. It IS conceivable that 5,000 people all around the country could be walking into theaters with foil in their pockets all at the same time! (Unlikely but conceivable.) It's perfectly legal to walk into theaters with foil in your pockets!

If those people who go into theaters with foil in their pockets don't cause a lot of commotion on their own, there's nothing the studios can do to stop them. The guards would be FORCED to go through a procedure like I listed above each and every time their alarms go off or else open themselves up to liability. All the other customers would be complaining. If the lines were held up long enough to delay the movie (in several locations all around the country) the idiots who came up with the idea to search customers would be forced to see the stupidity of the whole thing.

The down side to this idea is that it won't work unless a whole bunch of people do it all at the same time and they can't back down when the guard tries to search them. It has to be a large scale, coordinated act of passive resistance. If only one person (or only a few) people did it they could be simply thrown out of the theater for being "unruly" or "disturbing the peace". If that one person was too aggressive they could find themselves being banned from the theater or end up in jail.

In essence, this is all a gedanken experiment but it IS a logical solution to the problem... albeit a mean-spirited one. [evil]

Posted by Travis Hubrig (Member # 1745) on 12-14-2003, 12:49 AM:

I think if you walk out of a store, and the alarm goes off, you should stop and cooperate. As long as your not a thief, that is.
They will straighten out the problem and send you on your way.
I think it would be arrogant to start whining about getting searched, or your 'rights' If they are rude, than you have more of an argument. But that still doesn't make it ok to be rude yourself, or not cooperate.

Edit:
Sorry, about the topic: I do like the idea of the foil balls in the pockets. And the whole idea of searching people at a movie theatre with wands is poor. There are better ways to do it.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-14-2003, 01:19 AM:

JFC Randy...that sure is a "book" you wrote...got it published yet? [evil]

I personally agree with Tom. It IS an invasion of one's person and personal rights. If they want you to submit, get a real cop! If false, sue the bastards!

Also, if I happen to be wearing a "cockring" or a "Prince Albert", will they want me to ***SHOW*** them?

How f*cking ridiculous!

>>> Phil

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-14-2003, 10:50 AM:

Well, Phil, if an alarm goes off as you exit the store because some idiot didn't neutralize a security tag you are being publicly incriminated. If you go into a theater and a guard's security wand beeps because of the car keys in your pocket you are also being publicly incriminated.

If I go into a store and the alarm goes off I MAKE the door person go through the steps I listed above.

Law abiding people who are subjected to this kind of treatment really need to stand up for themselves and politely refuse to tolerate it. If we don't we'll only be subjected to more of it in the future. We all have to teach these idots that they can't get away with it.

Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-14-2003, 03:17 PM:

If I'm ever in the situation where a door buzzer goes off (primarily at Wal-Mart), I keep walking. They have yet to come try and stop me and woa the day they do.. I will NOT allow them to search me or my possessions, and, after paying for them, they are, in fact, my possessions .

AT this point, they have one option in my book, call the police and we'll sort it out with them. It's never happened to me, but if it did.... [Mad]

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-14-2003, 03:19 PM:

Ian -- I could understand not letting someone into the movie IF, at the time of ticket purchase they were notified that there would be a screening/search. And like Randy said, why THIS particular show? And what if all I have is the clothes on myself, a large popcorn, drink and some candy?

Actually, that gave me a better idea than the foil. Find a small videocamera like those handheld ones and put it in a ziplock bag. Then, go get the largest popcorn the theater has. Go in the bathroom and hide the camera in the popcorn. (The bag will protect it from the grease) Then when they catch you with it, they will have to initiate some crazy new policy of searching everyone's popcorn... just in case... [evil]

=TMP=

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-14-2003, 03:26 PM:

Since a store is essentially private property all they would have to do is post a sign to the effect that upon entering this store you agrree to the possibility of being searched should an alarm go off

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-14-2003, 04:06 PM:

Every time you walk through those gates you are being searched. It is a very non-intrusive, subtile search but it is a search no matter how you candy coat it.

Yes, stores have the right to search but they also have the responsibility to make sure that innocent people aren't incriminated. Every time an alarm goes off because somebody in the store goofed they incriminate somebody!

What a wonderful way for theaters to do business! Incriminate every customer! Oh, Yeah! THAT'S a good way to make money! Maybe next time they want to see a movie, instead of going to a theater, they'll steal a video from Wal-Mart! Hell! Nobody will chase you if the alarm goes off! [Wink]

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 12-14-2003, 07:50 PM:

One day we had a press sneak prewiew for a movie, we recieved all parts excepted the first part, this was delivered 15 minutes before the projection by a security guard.
At the entrance of the multiplex, a second security guard had controled all the press licence of the journalists and refused the access to all guy who din't had is press card and the invitation to the screening ! Was a shame for us that we know all the periodists who come to see a press sneak prewiew !

The first security guard stayed during all the projection, next to the platters, and exiged that's the projectionist breaking down all the movie immediately, that it can take out and put it in a safe !

Some movie's distributors are verry anxious peoples [Big Grin]

Posted by Bryan Fournier (Member # 264) on 12-15-2003, 12:39 AM:

I know that Hollywood is concerned about piracy, but if I had to guess I would say 90% of the problem is studio employees and/or associates. I don't believe the problem is with the nations projectionists.

If they are so concerned now wait until digital projection becomes common, if ever.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-15-2003, 01:53 AM:

Now there's a great idea....every guy walking into a theatre wears a cockring. Imagine theatres having to post a sign saying, "Purchasing a ticket may subject you to a full body search." It certainly would be the downfall of searches because it would render them useless (as useless are they are now).

I so like the idea of putting something in the popcorn box, but I wouldn't make it a camera -- that would legitimize their search; but if the aluminum ball works on your person, just shove one into your barrel of popcorn....make them go fishing for it, then demand they give you a new bucket. Now imagine a hundred people doing it in one night!

What most people fail to realize is that no amount property rights ever trumps the Constitutional guarantee of unwarranted search, especially of one's person. At my place we have had legal briefs on what we can and cannot do to patrons in the theatre. And a lot of things which you would think would be OK can get you in lots of legal hot water and open you up to big-time law suites. For example, suppose a person is causing a disturbance, or is sitting in the wrong seat (we have reserved seating for all live performances) -- situations that come up routinely for us. And suppose after you point out that they need to move or leave, they refuse. You would think, as I did, that we could just have a few of our football player/ushers drag them out and throw them out on their asses. Big no-no. To protect yourself, you shouldn't ever touch their person. If you need to physically remove them, it is essential that you call a policeman to do it for you. The minute you touch them, it moves everything into a much more complicate real of legal hodgepodge.

When the lecturer ask me if I thought the house personnel had the right to throw someone out for something very obvious lilke sneaking in, I answered yes; I was wrong. If the person committed a crime, such as theft-of-service, which is what sneaking into the theatre without paying for a ticket it would be in NYC, the only way you could remove them bodily, short of calling a cop to do it, would be if the theatre personnel made a citizen's arrest, which, any lawyer will tell you, is a very, VERY dangerous thing to do, because the person who make the arrest can be sued as an individual, apart from any action that could also be levied against the theatre. Should the arrestor make a mistake, and his arrest turn out to be unwarrented, or even worse, the arrest action is legitimate BUT the arrestee wins the case on a technicality (and there are hundreds of them) which you as a non-lawyer couldn't possibly foresee when you are making what seems to you a very simple arrest, the person making the arrest could be liable for serious damages. Nothing in the legal system is simple, and juries tend not to like strong-arm tactics. A little play of the sympathy card -- say an innocent face or an older, helpless looking person (lots of our most ornery patrons are like 100 plus), and you can be in it deep.

Some house manager in a performing arts theatre, in Atlanta I think, was personally sued for $40,000 for ousting an unruly patron and he LOST. Believe me, that is always foremost in my mind above all else when I am thinking about what to do with a problem patron!

Now that cell phones are so ubiquitous, all you have to do is call the cops in front of the person and they all of a sudden become docile.....except the cranky old ones. They are not intimidated by anything. Sometime we just have to let them go rather than disturb and entire section of the audience, or even at times, cause a disturbance that could threaten the show to be stopped -- ballet dancers and orchestra conductors don't respond well to the sounds of a little old lady screaming that she's not going to get out of her seat.

Theatre....aint it fun!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2003, 10:34 AM:

I like the idea of putting the red herring (foil balls) into the popcorn! Let's take it one farther! [evil]

On the nights when the distributor sends security goons to search customers, the theater should run a special promotion. Every customer who buys a large popcorn gets a special toy in the bottom of his/her bucket. Kinda' like a McDonald's "Happy Meal". Only we make sure there's a substantial amount of metal in the toy! Y'Know... Like those little light-up gewgaws shaped like some character in the movie. The "toys" come in nice, sanitary plastic bags... Metalized mylar bags just to make sure the detectors will go off! [evil]

This way there's no need for a coordinated effort by many people and there's no way to accuse a customer of wrong-doing because it's not the customer who's perpetrating the act!

PS: I've never had a problem ejecting a customer when the situation called for it. However, when a 6-foot, 250 pound guy comes out of the basement with a set of Cam-Lok tails around his neck, smelling faintly of burned electical insulation most people tend not to argue. [Big Grin]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-15-2003, 12:11 PM:

quote:
Some house manager... was personally sued for $40,000 for ousting an unruly patron and he LOST.

Frank, I had the Sheriff eject an unruly for me last year... a situation that occurs around 4 or 5 times in a season and is consistent with how we've handled these things over the past 17 years. The responding deputy (with less than a year on the department) didn't like the fact that I wouldn't give the unruly her money back (after having to call the cops to get her off the property), and filed a report with the county prosecutor suggesting theft of services charges against ME (I stole my own services?)! A relatively green deputy prosecutor took up the case & actully did file the charges (a misdemeanor... not civil "beef"), suggesting that I had intended from the moment this person entered my property to take her money and not show her the movie (maximum penalty, 1 year in jail & $5,000 fine). Upon retaining an attorney, the County said they would drop the charges if I would write a $15 check to the unruly. I refused, and demanded a full jury trial.

About a week later, the County dropped the charges altogether, but it took 2 months, 2 court appearances and $1,000 to the lawyer to draw the line over a $15 ejection.

Moral:
When you're dealing with the public, ya never know!

or maybe...
Beware of premature ejection! [Razz]

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-15-2003, 01:04 PM:

Jack you should have countersued the county for a billion dollars on the grounds of them dictating to you how you run your private business and whom you choose to evict. But I'm no lawyer, so that may not be grounds.

Actually, (and Randy may be able to help with this...) is there a way you could sue an unruly patron if they refuse to leave? Technically, they are disrupting the show and causing a negative and hostile environment for your other customers, who will undoubtedly spread the word about the "confrontation" they saw at the theater, thus hurting your business. And if they do this DURING the movie, causing such a disruption to take people out of the story, then THEY are in violation of theft of service from the entire audience.

I'd like to see that. "You are charged with 398 counts of theft of service, defamation of this person's business, causing a public nuisance, and if you don't have your ticket stub, trespassing." [Smile]

=TMP=

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 12-15-2003, 02:27 PM:

I'm surprised that we don't have guards with our midnight print for Tuesday. I am actually going to get a chance to run it before customers see it.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-15-2003, 04:12 PM:

I don't think you can sue somebody civially unless you can show that the individual caused documented loss to yoou or your business.

(Okay, anybody can sue anybody for anything but there is no guarantee they'll be successful. [Wink]

)

In other words, you would have to show, for instance, that $X.00 worth of tickets and/or concession stand revenue had to be refunded due to some persons actions which he/she shouldn't have done. You had better have the refund slips to prove it, too!

No, what I would do is make sure the person is prosecuted criminally first. If you are friendly with the local constabulary I can see no reason why they wouldn't "cooperate" with you on making sure this person is charged with the "appropriate" crime(s). Now, once the criminal trial is overwith it's possible to have the records of that trial used in evidence at a civil trial. If the verdict of the first trail was "guilty" you have a virtual "lock" on a favorable verdict in a civil trail. All you have to do is show evidence of your damages and put forth a reasonable explanation of how much you think you are owed. (If the law allows for punitive damages, don't forget to add them in too.) Once you make youre case the judge/jury will come up with a figure. If your case is strong enough you'll be awarded your lost money. Don't count on getting rich! It'll take at LEAST a year!

Here's how I would attack the case of getting ejected from a theater if I was in the situation... Breach of contract.

When you buy a ticket a contract may be (may have been) created. Money in exchange for an opportunity to view a movie. If you don't get to see your movie, the theater must make good somehow with a refund or a raincheck or something.

Here's the reverse side: By purchasing a ticket to a movie you agree to abide by a reasonable set of rules for behavior. You promise not to talk loudly or disturb other people in other ways. By behiving like an idiot, YOU break the contract! Thus, you lose your opportunity to watch a movie! Out the door you go!

Now, the "OUT" on this contract would be "anticipatory repudiation". If neither side is able to fulfil his end of the contract through no fault of his own the contract could be rendered null and void. All parties would give back any money if exchanged and go on their seperate ways.

In other words, if the projector breaks down and you can't fix it you can get out of the contract by refunding the money. Or, if a customer presents an untorn ticket after a movie is over and can show a valid reason why he couln't have attended the movie (A car addident on the way to the show documented by a police report, Or a death in the family evidenced by an obituary from the newspaper.) they should get their money back, or at least a chance to exchange the ticket for another show.

Okay... So, where's all this going? How about THIS?!

If I buy a ticket at a theater to watch a movie, part of that contract is that I will be able to sit down in my chair in relative comfort WITHOUT being disturbed by some some big goons in uniforms searching me without cause. Many theaters ADVERTISE that fact on their front marquees! "Big, Comfortable Chairs! Air Conditioned Comfort!"

I didn't GET to watch my movie, undisturbed in a big, comfy chair because some big, fat, hairy GOON kept trying to offend my civil rights by sticking that damn electronic WAND down my pants!

Refund please! And don't forget the punitive damages for my civil rights violation! [evil]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-15-2003, 05:19 PM:

Randy:
Got a good laugh from that! [beer]

I've always compared it to a cover charge at a bar... or admission to a sporting event. You are admitted, but your $10 does not buy you a piece of the rock. If your behavior at any of these venues is considered out of line, you risk being shown the door... and I've never heard of a situation where Security first escorts you to the boxoffice for a refund. I think that establishing a court case for an implied contractual relation would be expensive, with no sure outcome. However, having gone through what I did this Summer... I wouldn't say that someone might not try it some day! Making a case for business disruption would be difficult, since we usually manage to get the unruly off the property before they actually disrupt much more than our normally pleasant demeanour.

On the "wand down my pants"! [Eek!]

All of those events up here have been free, pre-release showings.
Are they "wanding" the public, too???

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-16-2003, 12:37 PM:

quote:
All you have to do is show evidence of your damages and put forth a reasonable explanation of how much you think you are owed.

Perhaps documentation that the week following the "incident" (okay, let's say it's a big deal, shouting match, thrown soda... not just a crying baby) your attendance dropped by 35% and per-cap dropped by 15% despite reports that national ticket sales were "up by 50% from last week." So if the national average went UP and your attendance DROPPED, could that be used in the case to say that the incident has hurt your business?

=TMP=

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-16-2003, 12:55 PM:

That'd be grabbing at straws. There's just no way to prove beyond resonable doubt that this person caused it. You'd have to show a causal link.

Maybe there was a traffic jam in front of your theater so customers couldn't come to you if they wanted to? Maybe 35% of your customers just didn't feel like going to a movie today out of random chance?

Now, IF there was an article in your local newspaper that said something like, "Riot at local movie theater caused by unruly patron", then you might be able to show a link to a drop in your revenue.

If you could show that on nights when there are security guards in your theater attandance changes you might have a leg to stand on but it'd be a long, longshot. If the feature is free then your rectipts would have gone UP, not down. People who DIDN'T buy tickets spent money on popcorn... revenue that didn't show up at the box office that showed up at the concession stands instead!

That's probably a reason why theater managers don't complain about this too much... FREE MONEY!

Posted by Joe Schmidt (Member # 822) on 12-19-2003, 02:54 PM:

[Frown]

Depressed

This was a very depressing thread to read. At times like this, I reflect upon how lucky I am to be retired long ago from this business, so many aspects of which seem to have gone completely insane. Film-Tech is a variant of deja-vu, but I presently believe that exhibition is [a] not a good business to be in, and [b] NOT a good business to be employed in.

Upon reading the thread about traps, and discovering it had nothing to do with catching mice, my thought was that you put trainees through all of this stress, and upon completion of the course they are fully qualified for a part-time minimum-wage job with no benefits!

Hope I don't get flamed too badly.... [uhoh]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-20-2003, 12:16 PM:

Wow, Jack -- I thought that problems like that were only theoretical scenarios that used to teach us what to watch out for. The legal department at the college had given us a few training sessions at our request to clue us in on some of the legal stuff it would be good for our staff to know about. We learned ho tricky all this legal stuff can become; we are lucky because we have the legal department to give us the benefit of their expertise.

One of the things that I learned is that what seems so obviously black and white to the layman -- like, a patron sneaks in with a counterfet ticket so we have the right to drag his sorry ass out of our theatre -- unfortunatly it is anything but simple. And even when it is cut and dry, you don't want to do anything that could let them drag YOU in and out of court, which, in the end, is more costly to you in time and money than the original problem ever was.

Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 12-20-2003, 01:36 PM:

Frank

WB is just being to ridiculous, they did the same thing in my theatre too, searching patrons bags and checking them with metal detector wands. Also they asked me to check if someone was hiding in booth , I just ignored them because I was getting really irritated with their stupid questions, after all this I had to sign some papers for security purpose.It's bunch of crap.I don't really blame the security guards because they are doing what are told to do, but this piracy stuff is just to get more found for MPAA and all those on top.