Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Who Controls DTS Discs?

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Posted by Todd Leach (Member # 883) on 11-20-2003, 04:45 PM:

The reason I ask this question is today I received my print of "School of Rock" and it had no DTS discs. No big deal, I'll just call the film depot and have them send a set, well they tell me they don't have any so on to the next step. I call Paramount who can't believe that the depot doesn't have any discs so they call the depot. The depot tells Paramount that they were told to send the discs back. Paramount doesn't understand why they were removed, ETS is doing what they are told and I'm SOL. So if the studio's don't control the issuing of DTS discs who does?

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 11-20-2003, 05:29 PM:

You can always call DTS and they will send you out a set.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-20-2003, 08:27 PM:

Part of the DTS encoding license with the studio / producers is they are in control of the distribution of the disks to the cinema. DTS is always helpful to people who have problems exhibiting the producer's product and should be glad to assist.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-21-2003, 04:42 AM:

This problem is really getting pretty old hat, and really, really annoying, don't you think? As much as I like DTS, if I can't play it, what good is it?

I just ran a print of GOTHIKA -- it came with no disks. But as per Warner's security paranoia, I got the print only 2 hours before showtime and only then discovered it was sans DTS disks. I guess what I need to do is to just call the studio two days before the screening of any sneak and tell them there are no disks. Make them send the disks out so I will have them for showtime. Not that it made a hill of beans difference for this dog of a film. My analog sounded just fine.

Frank

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-21-2003, 01:14 PM:

If the film companies would get off their collective asses and start sending $500 invoices to the theatres that don't return the disks, the problem would disappear instantly. They go apeshit when your print of "Gigli" is a day late arriving back, so why can't they do the same with the disks, which are scanned into the system when they're shipped out? (At least, with TES they are.)

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-21-2003, 02:39 PM:

Well, there are a bunch of issues here.

With respect to Todd's specific question, it sounds like there are multiple people at ETS and Paramount who aren't talking to each other. Nailing down exactly who is responsible is probably awkward, and you'll probably have to talk to both your local ETS depot and ETS national in LA, as well as both your local Paramount booker and Paramount's print control people. Good luck.

DTS will send you discs, but they always have to check with the studio first before they can send them.

Frank asks about sneak preview screenings. Those really are a special case. Frequently the discs are not reproduced and distributed until just before the release date, so it's just not possible to get them for advance screenings.

I'm not exactly sure why this is, but at least part of it is that advance screenings are not always the final edit of the film, and so DTS discs are not always made for them (or worse, the print is not final and you get the DTS discs for the final movie and they're out of sync; we've seen this twice). I think lack of DTS for advance screenings is something you just have to accept.

--jhawk

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-21-2003, 02:52 PM:

quote:
John Hawkinson scribed:
Frank asks about sneak preview screenings. Those really are a special case. Frequently the discs are not reproduced and distributed until just before the release date, so it's just not possible to get them for advance screenings.

This has rarely been the case for me. Almost always a Sneak Preview is a finished print and has Dolby Digital and SDDS printed on it. DTS tracks are mastered from the same siurce material... it is just a matter of encoding and stamping the discs. But with Sneaks, I have almost always gotten the discs. There have been times where the discs have been sent a week later right before the movie opened, though.

Trade screenings can be a different story. Sometimes you get them, most of the time you don't.

However if you are doing an audience test screening many many months in advance, you're lucky to have anything more than mono. And usually that is in the form of a seperate magnetic dubber running in sync with your projector.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-21-2003, 03:37 PM:

Nowadays with as late as the studios are finishing the movies and intentionally delaying the trade screenings (so the bookers will give a general commitment to the product before actually seeing what a piece of crap it is), the prints ran are almost always completely finished with SRD, SDDS and a dts timecode. Personally, I find no excuse for dts to not be able to hand burn a dozen discs for trade show use instead of waiting for the pressed discs to arrive.

That being said, these days there is still a 95% chance the film will have an SRD track, even if the movie is not finished. For theaters that run early screenings like this, there is no excuse to have anything other than SRD.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-23-2003, 04:28 AM:

quote:
For theaters that run early screenings like this, there is no excuse to have anything other than SRD

How bout, we don't have any MONEY? [Frown]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-23-2003, 06:19 AM:

I was implying theaters that run advance screenings on a regular basis, not the occasional special event.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-23-2003, 07:09 AM:

Well, fellas, I guess we get what we pay for. DTS used to be the cheapest of the digital systems (not sure about now) but IMHO the long-term cost of ownership is considerably high when you factor in the amount of enjoyment you will actually get out of having it. I got mostly headaches.

Last year around Easter I made notes on ten consecutive releases. Only one of them arrived with DTS and -- including that one -- only four of them finaled with DTS discs. Out of those four, only two of those movies actually played in DTS. Even after moving those units over to the "graveyard" houses, they still sit unused about half the time.

Consider this -- 9 out of 10 of those movies I monitored during my test opened with analog sound. I'm betting that I could probably run my little test again right now and get similar results.

I doubt that I would ever recommend DTS to a theatre looking to upgrade to digital sound. If you're low on cash, just buy a CP650SR and then upgrade that for Dolby Digital at a later time...or buy a used DA-20 adapter if you can find one.

Our SRD systems have been used on 100% of prints since we installed them. In those theatres -- our main houses -- every feature has opened with digital sound.

And then I could go on to mention the ease-of-use in terms of programming trailers with digital audio in mind. First, you have the actual movie previews with the SRD printed on the film instead of comparing your trailer lineup to the latest trailer disc from DTS. Then you also could consider the actual logo trailers. Dolby's commitment to helping theatres market their sound systems beats DTS hands-down. Not only does Dolby produce new trailers with far greater regularity, the trailers themselves are better than what DTS came up with for their two snipes, the oldest of which is a few years old now.

I find it interesting that the studios would tolerate advance screenings with the analog track. They really should insist preview theatres to be SRD equipped -- it's the only way to be sure. Maybe that would place the studios in trouble for seeming to have a general preference but I'm only thinking about *advance* screenings.

And, anyway, I recall receiving a James Bond movie from MGM with a note saying that DTS was the preferred digital system, so it isn't *necessarily* a problem...at least it hasn't been in the past.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 11-23-2003, 10:30 AM:

SR•D? Pfft...6-track mag double-system! [Big Grin]

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-23-2003, 04:20 PM:

Hey, don't bad-mouth DTS, they'll call your bosses and get you in trouble! [Wink]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-23-2003, 06:19 PM:

The Bahamas should not have a problem getting DTS disks if your booker is any good in complaining; he/she should a current inventory of the equipment used in the cinemas on file. The DTS system is the least expensive due to the low cost of the reader compared to Dolby / SDDS readers. It depends on the market........ [Wink]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-23-2003, 10:39 PM:

You know in the great white north we have no trouble except from one distributor getting even disks on time for even second run engagements

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-24-2003, 08:16 AM:

Richard wrote:

quote:
The DTS system is the least expensive due to the low cost of the reader compared to Dolby / SDDS readers.

There's a $4,000 difference in cost of the readers??? [Eek!]

Maybe I'm working with *yesterday's* prices...Are you talking about a 6AD or an XD10? I was referring to the original 6 and 6D.

(Also, IIRC there was a deeeeep discount for the DTS-6 for theatres gearing up to run JURASSIC PARK. Is this true?)

What are these things selling for nowadays? Years ago -- late 1990s -- a DTS system was about $6k whereas an SRD was about $10k with a reader.

The list on an SRD is still about the same. But what about the DTS...am I misremembering and/or did prices change drastically since the last time I bought this stuff?

As for SDDS, I don't remember what they were going for but somehow I remember an SDDS setup costing even more than Dolby.

Jesse wrote:

quote:
Hey, don't bad-mouth DTS, they'll call your bosses and get you in trouble!

Has this actually ever happened!? Pure scandal!

I really don't think they want to mess around with that. It wouldn't get me in any trouble. In fact, they'd probably just hear more complaining.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-24-2003, 09:54 AM:

I am using a 6D player with a one reader that comes as a kit for $6350.00 list vs a DA-20 with a BACP or basement set up which more money right out of the box. Pricing for DTS has not changed the last two years while Dolby had some increases due to the changes in the dollar and euro since they source out from two locations, U.K and San Francisco....where is the $4000.00 number from?..am I confused or jet lagged from my recent trip [Confused]

Jurrassic Park 1 was jump started by a sale which put digital sound on the map....I remember doing 15 systems in 40 days during this period and had most of my clients prepped for the change with pre-wire and proper amps and speakers to do the job due to tech information that was being noted to AES and SMPTE members prior to the introduction of the hardware from DTS and Dolby. Dolby prior to Jurrassic Park was promoting Dolby Digital as a premium sound kit for special cinemas and marketing was not geared for wide spread use since SR analog was deem more important to push....the rest is history.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 11-25-2003, 10:28 AM:

Would it be against DTS rules to trade ISO disc images between theaters that didn't get their discs and theaters that have them?

If so, perhaps some sort of "needs" forum could be added here, where people with needs meet up with fellow members that would be willing to send them an ISO of the discs they need.

Of course, this would likely require a broadband connection to make it practical, plus a way for the files to be transferred...

DTS should make these images available on a private FTP server so that theaters/distributors could get the discs they need in a pinch, don't you think?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-25-2003, 01:41 PM:

This has been discussed before and the answer is always no. Do a search and you will see the topic turn up.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-25-2003, 02:17 PM:

The DTS track like Dolby and SDDS is paid by the studios under a license scheme. The DTS encoding license is based on a master to make duplicate disks or 500 disks and up which belong to the studio since they paid for the license. Usually due to last minute producer and studio changes DTS may not have a final to make the master but they only need a couple of days for master and disks to deliver when the client has their act together. We are dealing with copywrited property; maybe in a few years with broadband + DTS XD-10 with hard drive in the field and studio supported networks to send audio via studio supplied passkey protection to the site.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-25-2003, 08:51 PM:

Richard asked:

quote:
where is the $4000.00

If the DTS system is around $6000 and the Dolby system is around $10000...that's the $4k difference to which I was referring.

You had stated that the difference in price was due to the cost of the reader and I'm saying there's about a $4000 difference so it seems odd to attribute all of that to the reader.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-25-2003, 10:03 PM:

Manny...it sinks in now, especially after getting a decent night's rest [Wink]

The price spread between DTS and Dolby averages $3 - 4000 depending on the reader set-up on the Dolby and if upgrade or full swap out is factored.