Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CLEOPATRA.

This is topic CLEOPATRA. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005580

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 11-25-2003, 05:52 PM:

Forgive me my preoccupation in this area.

I've just been watching the Special Edition DVD of the above.

The "20th Century Fox" logo followed by "20th Century Fox Presents" appeared during the closing bars of the overture. Then there is a fade-out followed by the start of the Main Credit Titles.

Does anyone know/remember if this was the case during the original theatrical release either in 35/70 mm?

I'd be most grateful for any recollections.

Kind regards,

Frank.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-26-2003, 11:40 AM:

Yes. At least in the 35mm mag stereo print I saw in 1976.

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 11-26-2003, 11:49 AM:

Many thanks Paul,

Do you have any thoughts or memories of special "road show" type presentation for this type of production?

Cheers,

Frank.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 11-26-2003, 04:17 PM:

I have had the good fortune to see all of the road show releases in the late forties until the early seventies. If my memory is correct, I think the last one was for "TORA!TORA!TORA! in 1970. There might have been one or two more others but I am not sure. Some of the earlier ones were "DUAL IN THE SUN", "SAMSON & DELILAH", IVANHOE","QUO VADIS", "THE GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH" and many others in the forties and early fifties. I still have fond recollections of all of the 70mm road show releases and "CLEOPATRA" was one of them. I saw it in 70mm Todd-AO at the Kuhio in Honolulu and the opening was exactly as presented on the DVD. Because Hawaii was not considered a major market, many films played as road show attractions in 35mm and mono sound here despite the fact the theatres was set up for four track mag. FIDDLER ON THE ROOF", WEST SIDE STORY", "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA", "EXODUS", "SPARTACUS" are few that come to mind. "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA" and "WEST SIDE STORY" played later in 70mm many times here as revival showing, however.

A Road Show attraction was treated like a stage presentation where one can purchase tickets in advance at ticket outlets that sell concert and regular live stage presentations. Tickets were also available at a special window at the theatre playing the film. You can reserve a seat and the exact show time weeks or even a month or two before the start of the engagement. The Kuhio, and later the Cinerama and the Kapahulu were Honolulu's road show venues. The Kuhio and the Kapahulu did not have a curtain when they put in a scope screen but the Cinerama did. It was cool to listen to the overture with the curtain closed and have it slowly open when the studio logo flashed on the screen.

-Claude

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-30-2003, 09:36 AM:

Frank,

I'll post a definative answer for you shortly -- I have access to a roadshow 4 trk mag print. I'll check it out for you.

the other Frank

PS -- you really like this turkey?

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 11-30-2003, 02:03 PM:

Hi Frank and other kind contributors to this topic.

Frank. I DO like Cleopatra although I appreciate that it's seriously flawed. Generally though, I think the quality of the writing, with one or two glaring exceptions, was good for this type of movie.

Also, I think Rex Harrison is extremely good as Julius Ceasar and Richard Burton, although inconsequential in the first half, comes into his own in the second.

I'm rather fond of Alex north's score too.

Are the Overture and Intermission music intact on your print?

Kind regards,

The lesser of the two Franks.

Posted by Thomas Jonsson (Member # 1902) on 11-30-2003, 03:06 PM:

I saw Cleopatra at a 70mm film festival at the Royal
in Malmoe (Sweden) a couple of years ago. I liked the
film, though perhaps it was a little over-long. Alex
North´s music is great, so is his score for Spartacus.

If I remember it right, every second reel had OK color
and every second was faded, and so was Carol Reed´s
"Oliver!"

Too bad film-makers of today aren´t interested in making
Road-Show versions at least of their biggest films. Imagine
Lord of the Rings Trilogy with overtures and intermission.
But I guess those days are gone. Too bad, it was REALLY
something SPECIAL.

Thomas

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 11-30-2003, 04:06 PM:

quote:
I have access to a roadshow 4 trk mag print.

Wasn't this only roadshowed in Todd-AO? In it's world premiere 4 hour and week later 3:45 (approximate) cut? I believe the 35mm 4-track general release prints ran around 3:10-3:15. This was the version I saw, and the music did indeed lead into the Fox logo as I stated above.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-01-2003, 05:40 AM:

Paul, I am assuming that "roadshow" means a print that has the overture, intermission, entr'acte and exit music intact, not necessarily that it is identical to the cut as per the original premiere version. Many films opened in longer cuts but were then edited and played roadshow engagements in the shorter versions -- 2001 comes to mind. Even though cuts were made after the initial opening, the slightly shorter versions played roadshow engagements most everywhere else before moving to the subruns sans the intermission and other material. Many times the cuts were made while the opening roadshow enagement was still playing its initial key cities.

Sometimes the scores outshine the film -- I too love the North score as I do the Elmer Bernstein score for THE TEN COMMANDMENTS and Newman score for THE ROBE....it's just that watching these overblown epic melodramas is much to much to suffer just to hear the scores. Better to get the CD and listen to the 60 minutes of music, sans the torture of having to sit through the actual film. [Wink]

Frank

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 12-01-2003, 10:11 AM:

Frank,

I noted above that Cleopatra WAS cut during its roadshow, as were a number of movies. But in many cases, movies retained their overtures, intermissons, etc in ths standard release versions. In fact, some non-roadshows had overtures as well (Scrooge, Cromwell come to mind).

Cleopatra essentially had to roadshow cuts. The world premiere at approx 4 hours (available now on DVD, previously on LD sans overture,entracte,exit music, VHS WITH overture,entracte, exit music - go figure).

The film was then cut to around 3 hours, 40 minutes for the rest of the roadshow engagements. These prints were 70mm Todd-AO (6-track mag).

For general release, the film was cut to around 3 hrs. 10-15 minutes. The mag/optic prints included Overture,entracte and exit music (which may or not have been cut of by individual theateres). However, these were 35mm "scope" prints, and shouldn't be considered "Roadshow" prints.

A roadshow is as Claude mentioned above, not whether a

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 12-01-2003, 08:01 PM:

I saw CLEOPATRA during its roadshow run at the Rivoli in New York, and it seemed as if it were 8 hours long. It was only 4 seats from a sellout, and the only seats available were on the front row beside the left-hand wall. The screen was quite large, and those seats actually should have been removed. It took neck craning and twisting to see the center of the picture.

The uncomfortableness made it seem as if it were never going to end. I was sore when the movie was over! About the only thing I remember is the scene of the jewel hanging down Elizabeth Taylor's cleavage.

This isn't related to running time, but a Greek (nationality, that is) friend of mine told me that the Fox studio didn't have enough cash to complete CLEOPATRA, and the Greek owners of a California theatre circuit provided the financing to finish it.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-02-2003, 07:51 AM:

quote:
This isn't related to running time, but a Greek (nationality, that is) friend of mine told me that the Fox studio didn't have enough cash to complete CLEOPATRA, and the Greek owners of a California theatre circuit provided the financing to finish it.

Are you sure that story didn't evolve from the actual involvement of Spyros Skouras, Chairman of 20th Century Fox when Cleopatra got green-lighted?:

http://www.foxhome.com/cleopatra/cleopatra_btsmaking.htm

http://dvdscan.com/cleopatra.htm

http://www.waldorfconference.com/skouras.html

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-02-2003, 08:08 AM:

During that time 20th Century Fox's president was Spyros P. Skouras. His brother was president of Fox West Coast Theatres chain, Charles P. Skouras.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-02-2003, 08:17 AM:

Thanks. So there may be a Greek exhibitor connection afterall?

Posted by Thomas Hauerslev (Member # 566) on 12-03-2003, 03:21 AM:

George P. Skouras (another brother) co-founded MAGNA Theatre Corporation

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 12-03-2003, 02:21 PM:

The Skouras family was well represented in the film business.

Did Fox West Coast own the San Francisco Fox? The friend of mine(Demetrious Papanicolau) who told the story of a Greek theatre owner providing financing for 20th-Century Fox to finish CLEOPATRA, was baby sat in the SF Fox Building during his childhood.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-03-2003, 03:13 PM:

Yes, the Fox San Francisco Theatre was operated by Fox West Coast Theatres. Which later became National Theatres, Inc. and later National General Theatres, which was later sold to Ted Mann to become Mann Theatres. Fox West Coast Theatres operated over 200 theatres in California / Arizona region. Other divisions of the company were Fox Inter-Mountain Theatres, Inc. 71 theatres(Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming), Fox Midwest Theatres Inc. 95 theatres (Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska), Fox Wisconsin Theatres, Inc., 29 theatres (Wisconsin), Evergreen State Amusement Corp. 27 theatres (Oregon, Washington), Fox Michigan Corp. operating the Fox Detroit, Roxy Theatre, Inc., operating the Roxy Theatre in NYC, Fox Philadelphia Building Inc. operating the Fox Phildelphia. This is National Theatres as of 1956 with Charles P. Skouras as president of the company.
The Skouras family also had a chain of theatres since the 30's in New York and New Jersey areas. Skouras Theatres Corp. with 46 theatres in the New York & New Jersey as of 1956.

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 12-04-2003, 12:46 AM:

I know it's off of the CLEOPATRA topic, but your post is interesting information, Bill. Thanks. I've visited 3 of the Foxes you mentioned, in Philadelphia, Detroit, and St. Louis. They were/are wonderful theatres. Sorry I missed SF!

In Philadelphia, Mr. Milgram personally got on the telephone to approve my request to visit. It had a screening room, Top O' the Fox, on the 12th floor, and the stage had been converted to a theatre at the time I was there (early 1970s).

One little insignificant observation in Philadelphia was generators way down in the basement for the arc lamps. I think they may have been 180/180-amp. Their whine increased noticeably when the arc was struck on the incoming lamp for a changeover. They sounded so pretty.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-04-2003, 09:57 AM:

The American Film Institute Catalog, Feature Films, 1961-1970 (ISBN 0-913616-45-1) lists the running time as 243 min [Cut to 222 min]. It also notes "Opened in London in Aug 1963; running time: 215 min."

Posted by Frank Aston (Member # 478) on 12-04-2003, 05:45 PM:

I can certainly relate to the idea of movies like RETURN OF THE KING being presented as ROADSHOW presentations.
Everything is actually in place at present. Advance booking, seperate performances, excited anticipation.
The only things that are missing are agreements between studios/distributors and exhibitors which would restore the sense of theatrical occasion presently missing.
I'm talking about curtains (tabs), stage lighting, overtures, proper, carefully placed intermissions, entr'act music, exit music and SHOWMANSHIP.
Oh, back to my origional topic. Despite it's flaws as a movie, CLEOPATRA had all the above in spades on it's initial release in theatres which "do film right".

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-05-2003, 06:00 PM:

When I was 11 or 12 my dad took me to LA for a vacation (Disneyland) While we were there we went and walked the walk of fame or whatever it's called (with the stars in the sidewalk). At one point I ran out of film and went to a corner drugstore. The lady asked if the film was "for the premiere". I said "what premiere" and she said "Cleopatra, down the street", pointing down the street. I went and told my dad and we walked down the street and sure enough, there it was. My dad went and talked to a guy at the ticket window and was standing there apparently when someone canceled or something (maybe he bribed him I don't know) Anyway we went that evening and it was pretty cool. Something I'll never forget. I felt pretty out of place as we just had vacation clothes on and everyone else was dressed to the hilt.
I still think Cleo's entry into Rome on the big Sphinx wagon was the best thing they ever put on film.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 12-05-2003, 08:25 PM:

The premiere for "Cleopatra" was held at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-06-2003, 05:44 PM:

Yes that's the one!
My wife and I were down for the 3D show this summer and walked by it and I thought that was it. It's been 40 years, so I wasn't quite sure.

http://www.seeing-stars.com/OnStage/Pantages.shtml