This is topic STATIC!!!!!! in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 11-30-2003, 09:41 PM:
 
OMG! If I find the inventor of static cling, I'll strangle him with my burnt piece of film from tonight.

I had to move two films tonight temporarily and run them in different theatres that before. I start playing them and about 30 mins later I hear film dropping to the floor. I run to that projector and sure enough, The Missing burned. Lost about 3 feet of it in the 1st reel. I radio for assistance and the problem gets fixed. Only to find that it is still pulling layer after layer to the brain. I had to get a concession worker to watch it while I checked on my other movies. I get to the other moved film and what do you know, sBad Santa is staticy too. I saved that one before it could get tangled up. I ended up staying with Bad Santa till the end and the concession worker stayed with The Missing till the 5th reel when it finally smoothed out.

My question: WHY did this happen????
HOW can I remedy it for future moves?

Also, I noticed that there was a noticable hump on one section of the film and when it passed the payout arm, it started pulling the film. How does this "hump" happen and how can it be relieved?

Thanks

Richard
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-30-2003, 09:57 PM:
 
Filmguard!!!!!!!

Using it will eliminate your static cling problems!!!!!
Mark
 

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Posted by Tom Wienholt (Member # 1510) on 11-30-2003, 10:37 PM:
 
What kind of platters do you have? Probably Christie. That is why I don't like Christie platters. With strong platters, static is NEVER and issue. The film will run perfectly every time even with a lot of static. With Christie's, the static causes the control arm on the center-feed to jerk back and forth causing the film to be thrown.
 

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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 11-30-2003, 10:38 PM:
 
Film Guard is a definite help.

I'd also say that you should monitor the humidity level of the booth - too dry and you'll get more static than you want to think about. Humidifiers are good to have when the air is dry.
 

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 11-30-2003, 11:15 PM:
 
Tom, they are Speco LP-270 platters
 

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Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 11-30-2003, 11:35 PM:
 
Richard,

Ask your manager to order FilmGaurd for you. It's on the approved list of booth supplies, only you can't get it from CPI anymore, from what I've been told. They can order it from another one of our suppliers tho...
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 11-30-2003, 11:40 PM:
 

quote:

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With strong platters, static is NEVER and issue.

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I would have to strongly disagree with that statement.

I run strong platter and static does not usually cause a problem but it can cause a big problem.

If there is enough static to cause the film to jump over the outside keepers on the brain, it will either cause the brain arm to be stuck open or closed. In turn either speeding up the platter or stopping it.

Also, if you motor is not adjusted right and the static is causing the brain arm to move rapidly it will toss the print.

Did you ever get any Filmguard Richard? If so just run it through a cleaner and it should take care of the static.
 

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Posted by Peter Mork (Member # 1336) on 11-30-2003, 11:56 PM:
 
Ah, the Speco. They don't handle clings very well, do they?

(As for the Christie platters: au contraire, I've never had one jam due to layers of film sticking together, since the brain pulls the film upward as it winds off, which seems to do the trick as far as separating any static clings. Now yes, they can surge forward if the control arm is jerked suddenly, and that can and will throw the print - but that's a different problem, I say.)

Here is something that may help with the Speco platters. Get one or two small round magnets that are 1/4 inch or so thick and place them inside the doughnut of film. As the film pays out it will hit these barriers and have to jump over them - providing a little tug which is quite effective in separating clings before they hit the brain and cause jams.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-01-2003, 12:24 AM:
 
Richard, you probably have older style LP270s with only one roller on the takeup elevator, right? Two at the top and one that moves up and down? Those takeup with greater tension than the newer design with two rollers on the elevator. The increased tension causes the film to wrap tighter and bulge inward at the opening in the ring.

Regardless your problem is static and yes FilmGuard will take care of it. However to specifically answer your question WHY the bulge in your film aggravates your situation causing more layers of film to pull into the brain it is literally because of that bulge and the way for that one inch how the film can more easily "grab" the next layer of film via static and bring it into the brain. Besides the FilmGuard recommendation, you should get rid of those bent up center rings you are using. You know, the kind with the big 1-2 inch gaping hole and tall pins of which you grab to remove it from the roll when threading. Those rings are absolute Have your tech order you some of SPECO's current rings that look similar in design to the Christie rings. There are pictures in the SPECO LP280 review on this site.

The Christie platter by it's design can handle static better than a platter such as a Strong which pulls the film straight out of the roll. That slight twist upward makes all the difference, as since the film is pulling off at an angle, the static has to be much higher for the inner layer of film to be able to grasp the next layer of film. However when static IS that high, if the platters are not timed properly (as Tom's most likely are not properly calibrated), then you've got a nice print toss on your hands. So when running Christie's, just calibrate the thing properly (tip: use the instructions on this website under the TIPS section, not what is in the Christie manual) and you won't have any more problems. If static is present, even if you don't have a media cleaning machine, literally wiping FilmGuard onto the edge of the print as it sits on the platter will stop about 90% of the static too. Detailed instructions on the proper way to do this with just a paper towel are enclosed with the bottle.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-01-2003, 12:40 AM:
 
What I have done on the Speco platters is place a 1 inch round core between the stop and the controle fingers so when the fingers open up they stop not allowing a big gap to pull the film layers into the brain. You will find those newer rings to be very welcome in the booth. They do prevent that bulging problem.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-01-2003, 01:55 AM:
 

quote:

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The one and only Richard Greco wrote:
OMG! If I find the inventor of static cling, I'll strangle him with my burnt piece of film from tonight.

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If you knew all of the effort and time that went into inventing static cling, perhaps you'd feel differently. When John Pytlak invented static cling he only wanted to make the world a better place by thwarting would-be print thieves with a powerful **ZZAAPP!!** when they tried to steal the print.

Ouch.
 

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Posted by Jeff Klump (Member # 1870) on 12-01-2003, 02:57 AM:
 
Another option to go along with film guard is turning down the A/C in the booth. If you keep the temperature low you'll help prevent the cause of static all together. We keep ours at 62 during the day so even if 16 projectors are running at the same time it stays cool.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-01-2003, 04:03 AM:
 
Static cling? I hate that. In Anacortes I have to either take my shoes off and run around in stocking feet to prevent a static discharge when I touch the projector or dump a couple of cups of water on the carpet around the projector and platter.

Two weeks ago, I drew an arc off the computer case in the booth that was strong enough to blow the computer into the reboot mode. The charge emitted from my fingers was about 3/8ths of an inch.

It irritates me when I get zapped by static discharge when I start the projector.

However, I would not recommend the water thing to anyone because if there is piss-poor grounding of the equipment in the booth, you could get yourself electrocuted.

I even sprayed Film Guard on the floor around the projection station. That didn't help. All it did was make the carper slicker than snot on a brass doorknob.

Although Film-Guard is a marvelous product, it was not designed for that purpose.
 

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Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 12-01-2003, 06:01 AM:
 
For a quick fix, I do as Paul suggested; pour a coffee mug of boiled water directly underneath the platters. Our floors are linoleum and it has always fixed the problem immediately.

The long term fix is best achieved by acquiring a 'sling' off your a/c guys and testing the relative humidity in your booth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think between 50-60% is ideal.

As for film guard, you can't argue with the product if you get approval for its purchase on a regular basis.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-01-2003, 11:28 AM:
 
Even though Kodak VISION Color Print film has a conductive anti-static layer on the back side, static charge still needs a PATH to ground to be fully discharged. Platters with a PAINTED surface (like the Speco) may not have enough conductivity to provide that path to ground, so the static charge can build up on on the film. Definitely keep the relative humidity near the ideal 50 to 60 percent RH range --- the film will wind better (less curl) and the moisture in the air provides additional conductivity. Treat non-conductive platter surfaces, plastic rollers, and carpeting with a conductive anti-stat like "Static Guard", "Endust for Electronics", "Staticide", etc.:

http://www.aclstaticide.com/01/index.html

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/892692114.Ch.r.html

http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/g15032.html

Use an EVAPORATIVE humidifier to add needed moisture to the air. Do NOT use a vaporizer or ultrasonic humidifier that sprays or mists water into the air.
 

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Posted by Justin McLeod (Member # 1329) on 12-01-2003, 04:58 PM:
 
Don't know if anybody will beleive this or not, but at my theater, I found out that threading the platter too hard had fast will cause static for movies that have been built up at full speed. I am of course reffering to the Christie platters with this as that is what we use, and my booth enviorment is also very dry.
 

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Posted by Travis Hubrig (Member # 1745) on 12-01-2003, 05:12 PM:
 
Yes Paul it is amazing what Film-Guard does to carpet...
That's a different post.

You want to be careful that you don't get to much humidity in the air, you can make the film tacky, and get the same results as static. I had a projectionist running a humidifier right under a platter, the film was almost wet to the touch... he still insists that it was a static problem.

I don't use a humidifier in my booth I just keep the temp warm and allow the projectionists' sweat to keep the booth moist
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-01-2003, 07:30 PM:
 

quote:

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threading the platter too hard had fast

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quote:

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Sorry if my fist post sounded perverted, it was "NOT" meant to sound that way.

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Hey Justin, it's OK...Honest! Just "some" of us here are perverted!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-02-2003, 04:39 AM:
 
Justin, the speed the print was built has absolutely ZERO effect on how fast you are able to race that first 35 or so feet through the platter during threading.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-02-2003, 08:04 AM:
 
If Justin meant that BUILDING UP A PRINT onto the platter at excessive speed led to more static on the print, that could happen. Using excessive speed during make-up can lead to many problems, including more static.
 

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Posted by Justin McLeod (Member # 1329) on 12-02-2003, 09:13 PM:
 
Brad, I am not kidding you about the static problems I have encountered at my theater, and they have always happened because the print or prints were built up at an excessive speed, and my dry booth environment doesn't help either. At my theater I have learned that threading up at an excessive speed ( on prints that have been built up at excessive speeds ) can cause static. It may be just a phenomenon at my theater, but I have seen it happen.

I you choose not to agree with me somewhat or not at all, I'm perfectly fine with it. You have the right to your own opinion, and I respect it.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-02-2003, 11:36 PM:
 
Building a print fast can cause static issues. However threading fast has no bearing on static. It's a coincidence.

By the way, did you know that if you remove a reel of film from the shipping can with your left hand that it will cause static when you run it? Removing the reel with your right doesn't cause those problems. Coincidence? You decide.
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-03-2003, 12:25 AM:
 
Justin, I have had the unpleasent opportunity to build a print at warp speed from time to time in order to keep from losing a show because the print arrived late.

John is correct.

Excessive build up or tear down can cause one king sized charge under dry atmosphere conditions.

I have seen the arc-off of a plastic reel that was powerful enough to throw a spark over 1/2 of an inch long to the frame of a CFS MUT through the teflon hub. The CFS MUT hub has adjustable nylon drag screws for back-tension adjustments while building a print. They acted like a VandeGraaff generator.

By looking at the spark brightness and thickness, I sure would not like to get hit by that. The spark sounded and looked more powerful than what you might see on a xenon lamp igniter.
 

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Posted by Justin McLeod (Member # 1329) on 12-03-2003, 07:54 AM:
 
Brad, I'm willing to accept that it is a coincidence. I will do some experimentation for a while and see what happens.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2003, 02:05 PM:
 
Justin,

Do it with identical prints. (2 copies of the same movie.)
 

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Posted by Jan Kisluk (Member # 868) on 12-05-2003, 01:17 AM:
 
Our dry NE winter weather and heated booths lead to a lot of static in our booths. We Film Guard the prints and I spray the freshly vacuumed carpets lightly with Downy fabric softener. It works like a charm to keep the static down.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-05-2003, 07:36 AM:
 
Most liquid fabric softeners and the "Bounce"-type dryer fabric softener sheets contain a quaternary ammonium conductive anti-stat that increase the conductivity of fabric fibers, helping discharge any static buildup.
 

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Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 12-05-2003, 09:15 PM:
 
Hey Richard I been running Speco LP 270 platters new and old models, on 24 screens and I can count the time I had static with my fingers. Also I never used and static cling products, the cause is to keep your booth clean and keep the humidity 50-60% RH,also I clean the platters with 70%Isopropyl rubbing alcohol which you can find in any local store, and wipe with regular paper towel.Try this it might work for you too. Good luck
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-10-2003, 02:10 PM:
 
I have a CNR platter that is very sensitive to static (just one on 11!). It has no particular differences between the other but feels before the others when the climatic conditions are not good.

This summer we had many brain wrap on this platter since the AC system blown and we stayed for one month without AC (veeery hot and moisty!).

Now that is cold the AC system works a lot and the humidity dropped to minimum (we don't have humidifers... not yet!). Today my projectionists called saying that the same platter had brain wrap continuously. But I can understand, all of our prints are warped as John said. My temp solution is to switch off the AC system (11 projectors are enough to have a decent temp in the booth!) and put an electric cable connected to ground that touch the platter continuously. I hope that I'll have my humidifiers soon.

My question is: can the static be caused both by low humidity and by high humidity?? Why this platter has static problem in both cases?

John,
Why should the humidifers be evaporative?

Bye
A
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-10-2003, 02:26 PM:
 
Very high humidity and dampness causes the film's gelatin emulsion to soften and become physically more sticky, but usually not static problems. Very dry conditions cause static because the lack of any moisture makes film emulsion less conductive.

Here is an article I wrote: "All That Sticks Is NOT Static":

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5056.pdf

If your film is not winding evenly, it's likely that very dry conditions have caused excessive curl:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/baseP.shtml#characteristics

EVAPORATIVE humidifiers add needed moisture to the air efficiently by simply blowing air through a wet filter or wick made of paper, ceramic, or foam.

Steam humidifiers are very expensive to operate, as they actually have to boil the water. Vaporizers and ultrasonic humidifiers that spray a mist of water into the air can get nearby surfaces WET, causing damage to film or electronics. They also put the minerals that are in the water into the air, so that when the water evaporates, it leaves a salty white deposit.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-10-2003, 03:27 PM:
 
Thanks john

A
 

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Posted by Jean-Pierre Van Hoof (Member # 2063) on 12-10-2003, 04:23 PM:
 
Had some very bad static discharging in our theater and found out that it was caused by the rollers.

Since we changed them for the full carbon ones no more problemos.

All our platters are earthed and so where the rollers but that nylon on polyester running was causing big sparks and film trowing.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-11-2003, 07:10 AM:
 
Jean-Pierre wrote:

quote:

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Had some very bad static discharging in our theater and found out that it was caused by the rollers.

Since we changed them for the full carbon ones no more problemos.

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quote:

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I have had very few staticy ?sp prints, and with my properly timed AW3's even static can't stop 'em.

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Good for you! And North Dakota winters lead to some pretty bone dry conditions indoors when the heat is on! Bet you had lots more problems before Kodak VISION Color Print came on the scene a few years ago.
 

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Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 12-11-2003, 02:07 PM:
 
The best solution for countries where "Film guard" is not avaible, is to use parafine oil (sorry for my weak english, I mean: the liquid wax for candles) and treat the edges of the film. we had a lot of problems on ours Strong Alpha platters of brainwarp, but waxing the film was a good issue. believe me !

Good luck, and don't strangle the guy who invented the static electricity, is dead a lot of century ago !

Bye
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-11-2003, 02:57 PM:
 

quote:

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Good luck, and don't strangle the guy who invented the static electricity, is dead a lot of century ago !

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One of the guys who "invented" static electricity has his picture on a hundred dollar bill ($100 US Treasury Note).

Ben Franklin

I should be so lucky for being one of the Kodak team that helped control static on polyester prints.
 

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Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 12-16-2003, 11:48 PM:
 
Static cling should not be a problem on AW-3's

First, Aluminum rollers are available for the pay-out head. Using one of these rollers will help improve the electrical ground.

2: providing a proper electrical ground from the AW-3 electrical plug via the buildings electrical system.

3: FILM-GUARD!

4: Spraying a very light coat of clear clothing anti-static spray on the top of the print as it lay on the platter deck.

5; I forgot who makes them, but there is a hula-hoop available for AW-3 decks which will prevent the print from flying off the deck should static cling occour. These hula-hoops fit on the lip of the outer diameter of AW-3 decks.
 

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