quote:

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December 02, 2003 DTS To Introduce Security Enhancements For Cinema Audio Content Protection

PR for: DTS Cinema

DTS (Digital Theater Systems, Inc.) (Nasdaq: DTSI) today announced that it plans to introduce a series of software-based security enhancements for increased audio content protection of its theatrical sound delivery systems. As a committed participant in the entertainment industry battle against piracy, DTS plans initially to roll out the security enhancements on a limited basis in Q1 of 2004, and more widely across the globe thereafter. Currently in beta testing, the system enhancements are aimed at providing increased control and security features to protect DTS-formatted audio for cinema use from unauthorized tampering, copying or playback. This software-based upgrade represents an added measure to protect important film content and elements from illegal piracy.

“These product enhancements are a direct response to the entertainment industry’s growing concern regarding piracy, and through cooperative effort with our customers we have been able to accelerate our development timetable,” said Jon Kirchner, President and CEO of DTS. “DTS is committed to supporting the needs of studios, distributors and exhibitors in whatever ways we can to prevent content piracy.”

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-03-2003, 02:02 PM:
 
Truly pathetic. Everyone has lost their friggin' minds! Having a DTS audio disc is useless to anyone without a copy of the film print, and if someone has a print, they have the SRD audio. Besides, there is nothing they can encode which some hacker couldn't overcome anyway.

Some people really need to wake the hell up.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-03-2003, 02:47 PM:
 
It's quite simple ... they want to ensure that you don't use their system for an interlocked print. Or if you don't receive discs. Or if the discs you receive are bad. Or if you have a DTS6. Or if you play subrun. Or if you want to ensure that your presentation is in digital. Or if you have a brain.

What's next? A modem card installed to dial up and get permission from the studio before you start your show? Maybe that's what the networking in the XD10 is really for.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-03-2003, 02:53 PM:
 
Who the hell would want to pirate a DTS disc?

I think the message is clear:

DTS hates its customers.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-03-2003, 03:02 PM:
 
So what is this anti-piracy scheme and how does it work? How will it affect the exhibitor? Won't the sound still need to go through a D->A conversion before it can be fed to the sound processor, anyway? And why, exactly, does any of this matter when there's an optical track (which can sound darn good with SR noise reduction) on the film itself?

Adam: shhh! Don't give them any ideas.
 

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Posted by Dwayne Caldwell (Member # 417) on 12-03-2003, 03:25 PM:
 
Maybe they'll decide to input a series of random modem-like beeps on each set of discs in an effort to track down these numerous DTS bootleggers. Like an audio version of the CAP code. After all, we can always use more distractions in the presentation.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-03-2003, 03:52 PM:
 
It is a case of aggravating a few customers and pleasing others ( equipment versus licensing end users ). The sound track, though separate, is basically still copywrited material which the content owners would like to protect any potential source of revenue...even if it is shadow puppets projected on the screen with digital sound somewhere in the world
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-03-2003, 04:01 PM:
 
Well regardless of the reasons (public or private), it really helps to negate the usefulness of a DTS system, which is not the most versatile system for your standard movie theater. Pretty soon DTS will be only for special venue if they keep this up. Any studio who fears loss of revenue over a set of DTS discs obviously knows nothing about DTS, who is eager to kiss the ass of the highest bidder. Sorry customers, you should have known better than to buy DTS.

Just buy Dolby Digital. It's easier to deal with, more movies offer it, and you'll be MUCH happier.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-03-2003, 04:22 PM:
 

quote:

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even if it is shadow puppets projected on the screen with digital sound somewhere in the world

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I just had an idea to improve upon several current movie franchises. Someone send me a timecode generator right away.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-03-2003, 04:26 PM:
 
Well, they can go ahead and make it so people can't copy disks but those people at DTS had better make goddamm sure that, from now on, every print with a DTS timecode track ships with a set of fucking disks! I don't give a flying fuck if the print is 10 years old, if it's an international print or if it's brand-stinking new!

If it's a DTS print it WILL have disks in the can! No calling around. No hemming and hawing over the phone. Just give me the rat-bastard disks!

Anything less than that will spell the end of DTS in less than 3 years! What? Are they trying to put themselves out of business?!
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-03-2003, 04:51 PM:
 
I gotta chime in here too...

DITTO all of the above!

I guess they are not serious about staying in the biz. What a bunch of boneheads!

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 12-03-2003, 05:01 PM:
 
Everybody has Anti-Piracy on the brain. The Anti Piracy campaigns are more out of control then piracy itself.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-03-2003, 05:04 PM:
 
What Ron said.

DTS is a really nice system (especially since it supports 70mm) and the XD-10 sounds like a nice product, but this anti-piracy crap may sink the format if it causes any amount of grief for the exhibitor. (And it won't do any good to prevent piracy, anyway. Just get a timecode generator and hook up a DA-88 or some other sync tape recorder to the DTS unit's outputs. Presto--instant copy of the film soundtrack.)
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 12-03-2003, 06:16 PM:
 
The"pirates" could be using DTS discs is to play them back on a DTS player played rigged to play without timecode in order to get a perfect digital data stream. But I don't think most pirates would want to go to that much trouble. Who cares about that...most folks wouldn't hear the difference anyway.

One way DTS could copy protect their discs would be to create an entirely new disc standard so that only DTS readers could read the content. Design the system so that only a special BIOS could read the odd formatted disc. That way, only DTS official readers could read the things.

BUT, I agree with everyone here. This is a really silly idea. But, I'm sure Valenti and the boys will be cheering this on, as DTS is DIGITAL sound, and we all know that DIGITAL is better and DIGITAL means more PIRACY.
 

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Posted by Larry Davis (Member # 609) on 12-03-2003, 06:39 PM:
 
Since the DTS units output analog and not digital, it would be relatively easy to copy the 6 channel output. This "me too" announcement doesn't address that. Copy protecting the discs is going to make them more likely to be hoarded, which can't be of benefit to exhibitors.
 

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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 12-03-2003, 07:04 PM:
 
Generally agree with everyone... however, the studios may be pressuring DTS to, ..."do something, damnit!" So they made this announcement. I'm sure they don't really hate their customers, Joe! Unless, of course, every previously manufactured DTS player will require a firmware "upgrade" to read the new format.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-03-2003, 07:34 PM:
 
If the studios are pressuring DTS to do something... well I have a hard time believing that. Why would they do that? If they don't care enough to get rid of DVD screeners, what the hell would they care about DTS discs for? Why would anyone? I think it truly is a "me too" announcement like Larry said. They want to be seen as "anti-piracy" so studios will like them.

Another example of fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-03-2003, 07:45 PM:
 
Not "fixing" a problem...but more like creating MANY more.

I'm sure more films will play in DD because of this lame decision. It's already hard enough to get the disks with the prints.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 12-03-2003, 07:57 PM:
 
This is just plain silly. What good are DTS discs without the film, and the film has an analog track, not to mention DD, and SDDS. This is what I like to call management-moron thinking. Some idiots brain-fart, based on total lack of reality. From now on any interlocking of projectors will have to be done with DD, or SDDS. If you can't use your DTS units when you need them, then no one will be buying them anymore.

This could be the same system used by some CD makers, that plants a program in your computer (sounds like a virus to me, this should be illegal) that will not let you copy the disc. All you have to do is turn off the CD auto-start, and the program doesn't get planted.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-03-2003, 08:09 PM:
 
There's easily 3000 to 5000 theater screens equipped with old 2-drive DTS-6 machines. How is all this new anti-piracy stuff going to be compatible with those units, much less the many thousands of 3-drive DTS-6D machines?

Most movie theater circuits are still in pretty tight financial situations. If Hollywood forces DTS to make changes to its system that are not fully backward compatible with all existing units, then a lot of DTS-equipped screens will simply revert to playing movies only in analog. And then that will drive a good number of customers into the "I never go to the theater; I only visit the video store" camp. If changes were made that forced all the DTS-equipped screens in my town to be analog only I would rarely ever visit a movie theater. Sorry, but I am spoiled by 5.1 audio and it is a rare thing for me to put up with an optical track unless I'm watching an art film or something like that.

Clearly the morons calling for all this copy protection overkill are NOT DOING ANY MARKETING STUDIES ON THIS SHIT! Do they not realize all of the money losing negative blowback that garbage creates? Morons!

 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-03-2003, 08:15 PM:
 

quote:

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How is all this new anti-piracy stuff going to be compatible with those units, much less the many thousands of 3-drive DTS-6D machines

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quote:

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How about fining theaters who don't return their discs?

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That would fly just as well as fining theatres that damage prints.

While in my opinion, I'd LUV to see all of that, it will never happen.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 12-03-2003, 08:32 PM:
 
Actually, it would fly just about as well as the AMPAS screener ban did.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-03-2003, 08:41 PM:
 
Hey, DTS already has the best copy protection that's been implimented for years.....their proprietary scheme of just not shipping the disks with the prints in the first place!

Frank
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-03-2003, 08:49 PM:
 
I don't think the DTS folks are idiots and I don't think they hate their customers.
They are in business. They know that if they make it hard on their customers they will lose them. So does it make good business sense to be hard on your customers??? NO They want their customers to love them. They want it to be easy to have and use a DTS system, so they can sell their system and MAKE MONEY
What other reason could they have for doing something sure to PO their customers? How about maybe they are the victims of a witch hunt by the studios. Maybe they have no choice. Does it make more sense that they want to PO their customers or that they are FORCED to PO their customers?
If you were in business for yourself would purposefully TRY to make it hard on your customers? If yes, why?

You guys sound like some kind of crazy lynch mob.
Think about it and lighten up!
Geezus
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-03-2003, 09:14 PM:
 
Egad people, you are missing the point. DTS has no interest in thwarting nonexistant soundtrack piracy.

DTS is obviously taking a proactive stance against the possibility that in the near future someone will get creative and cob together PC software that will read their files, decompress the audio in software and pump the sound out via a 5.1 audio card. All that's needed is something to interface their timecode reader and you have a DTS player for US$800.

THAT, friends, is what they are trying to avoid. Too bad too because such a development, which I tend to think would be inevitable if not thwarted, could have made DTS the absolutely universal digital audio standard...on every screen from flagship houses to the Princess II in Watseka, IL.

I have a DTS6. I really only use it when I feel like it since I have SR•D as well. But on the theory that less compression = better sound sometimes if I get disks (not too common with my early screenings) I may use it. If DTS wants to give me a new box I'll put it in. But if my venerable box becomes obsolete because new firmware chips to go with encrypted disks are not made for my no-longer-supported box then I'm afraid that will be the end of DTS for me. I don't see a payback for investing in a replacement.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-03-2003, 09:18 PM:
 
I was at a lab in Asia where "Kill Bill" was being printed for the local market recently; they had four people inspecting, packing and verifying each release print for security. They also supplied the DTS master under high security handling to the disk duplicator....this was not Eastman Kodak ( print film ) or DTS / Dolby's ( sound track )fault but what the studios required. DTS is able to master and supply disks within two days, if there is proper coordination...then it is the studio's ball to play with.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-03-2003, 09:24 PM:
 
I just read the press release again. To me it sounds more like they're just going to make the disks uncopyable. I don't see where it says anything about players having to be upgraded.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-03-2003, 09:34 PM:
 
I do not doubt that there is a problem with piracy. But I think the studios are looking for the pirates in the wrong place. When you can see and hear a film on the Internet before it is in the theaters, then obviously the leak is not in the exhibitors's end, but in the studio's end.
As far as anti piracy software is concerned, the only encryption method I know of that has never been broken is the scrambling technique used to scramble HBO and the like. And the only reason it was not broken is because it violated national security laws to even attempt to break it.
If a human can encrypt it, a human can break the encryption.
 

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Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 12-03-2003, 09:59 PM:
 
I think Steve is correct, it won't be long before someone figures out how to play the discs on a pc. for example
http://sourceforge.net/projects/in-dtsc/

Also I bet you bottom dollar thay wont play on the old DTS units, thus theatres will HAVE to buy new units if they want to run them, which equals more money for them.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-03-2003, 10:05 PM:
 
Hate to burst your bubble, Greg. But those "chips" are available all over the place... and so is the software for the DTS stuff if you look hard enough.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-03-2003, 10:19 PM:
 
But the chips rely on other methods than actually breaking the encryption code. Like the all for one chip that turns on everything if you subscribe to one thing or the clone chip system that requires the one chip to be subscribed and the clones all get a free ride. It works until the MASTER gets caught then all the SLAVES get turned off too. Although these are a way around the encryption they don't actually break the encryption. (My reference is rather dated as I haven't really followed the scrambling issue since "C" band went out of style)
But my point was that most encryption techniques are never secure....for long

Anyway...if you are DTS you have to work with both the studios and the exhibitors. The studios control your software (product). If they say "You will do this or else" what are you going to say? No? I really don't think this is some ploy to screw the exhibitors, they'd be cutting their own throats!
I think a little slack should be cut
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-03-2003, 10:41 PM:
 
Again, as I posted earlier, why would the studios demand such a thing, especially when they barely care about DVD screeners which are far more liable to cause loss of revenue than DTS discs?
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-03-2003, 11:11 PM:
 
Well if DTS is really doing this then they, like others who don't know how to do business, will die. But I just can't believe they would make such a colossal mistake after having come this far and have such good market penetration. They didn't get where they are by being stupid or assholes.
That's why it doesn't make sense that they would do something that would so obviously turn a lot of customers against them, unless they had no choice.
Obviously the studios have it in their head that piracy is hurting them. This DTS issue is not the first we have heard of piracy problems and the studios trying (in a misguided way, I think) to do something about it. I doubt it will be the last thing we hear. I can't imagine what they think they can do about SRD. But DTS looks like an easy mark to the studios because they have those little "records" that they think can be copied or stolen or something.
Even though I make my living on the SRD side of the fence, I still feel sorry for the DTS guys cause they make a good product and I think they are being singled out and beat up because they are convenient.
I could be totally wrong, we'll see. Maybe they'll test out this new system and in the trials it will be obvious that it is not going to work and they'll scrap it. Or maybe it will work but the piracy will continue and they'll figure out the problem is somewhere else.
I don't have all the answers
 

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Posted by Chris Trainor (Member # 9) on 12-04-2003, 03:43 AM:
 
Getting off topic a little but on the side discussion about HBO:

The encryption HBO actually uses has not been cracked since the early days. The original Videocipher was cracked (in a way like pressing the Shift key on your computer to crack that CD anti-copy thing) fairly quickly. General Instruments fixed that pretty quickly with VCII+. Digicipher (built by GI now owned by Motorola) has also never been cracked. This is not because of laws, but due to design. It's a fairly expensive system and was built to be completely secure, with no backdoors. Also, they 'future proofed' the system as well... just in case someone cracks it, all Digicipher systems have an add-on slot where you can insert a little PC board (not a smartcard) to change the crypto system.

The little mini-dish systems on the other hand use a very easy to circumvent encryption (essentially you can clone an authorized card). The encryption it self is good, but the authorization method sucks. This is because of cost issues, they want cheap encoders and cheap decoders (since they give the receivers away).

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Now, back on topic.

It would be interesting if DTS did something like a funky tone now and then in the soundtrack to identify the source... but that would mean tracking individual disks which I think would be prohibitive... unless the tones were added in by the player... some unique ID that was put in the output now and then...like the CRAP code... but audio funkyness like that would probably piss off customers (ticketbuyers) enough for a revolt.

--Chris
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-04-2003, 06:27 AM:
 
It doesn't seem tenable that DTS is prepared to orphan all the DTS-6D and 6AD users after assuring everyone the XD10 would remain backward compatible (except for 10-channel movies).

It also doesn't seem tenable that the goal is to introduce a scheme to prevent you from copying CDROM discs; as far as I know, that's almost impossible. They can make it such that some software cannot copy them, but if the SCSI drives in the DTS players can read them, then they can be copied.

Therefore, I suspect this scheme is geared toward either a) preventing tampering of the CDs (e.g. shuffling reels around between discs or shuffling trailers between discs), or b) preventing the software DTS decoders from working. Either way, I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation.

We'll see.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-04-2003, 12:14 PM:
 
I really see no need for the copy protection measures. As others have stated, the discs are totally useless without a film print and a full blown movie theater equipped for DTS.

Perhaps there might be a miniscule handful of people out there fascinated enough by the system to try to develop a software only solution for playing back the audio on the discs, but with all the trouble one must go through to do it the whole endeavor seems like a complete waste of time.

It should also be stated those who download and watch movies on the Internet that are currently in theatrical release don't seem to be bothered by horrible video and audio quality. So why would they even bother with the hassle of trying to use a DTS movie CD-ROM?

Most postings I've seen in audio related binaries newsgroups concerning DTS are completely home theater related. Most people are trying to get pirated versions of SurCode (which only encodes the home theater version of DTS, not the completely different theatrical format). Some want to do illogical things like take a Dolby Digital audio track and convert it over to DTS to play on a CD (with a nice loss in generational quality thanks to demuxing a lossy compressed audio track and then running through another lossy encode step).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-04-2003, 03:37 PM:
 
So JHawk, since you have done your own "custom trailer shuffling" in the past, perhaps you may be able to answer this seemingly simple question.

quote:

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Either way, I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation.

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What's to prevent me from using an old DTS.EXE file with new AUD files? Perhaps some coding inside the AUD files?

And regardless, I do agree with you. A straight bit for bit cd copy would be pretty much impossible to prevent.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-04-2003, 03:43 PM:
 
Assuming for the moment that my conjecture is correct: "I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation."

Brad asks, "What's to prevent me from using an old DTS.EXE file with new AUD files? Perhaps some coding inside the AUD files?"

What I meant to suggest when I said "new format" was that the .AUD files would change. Either they would be replaced with a different sort of file, or their contents/formats would change (perhaps they would become one monolithic file?).

This is just speculation, of course.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-04-2003, 03:47 PM:
 
Oh well, we'll see. If DTS makes this change and it affects the theaters in any negative way whatsoever, we can all kiss the format goodbye because people will not support it. As it is, SRD is on everything and is much easier to operate.
 

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Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 12-04-2003, 08:10 PM:
 
I can't see what use the discs would be to anyone without the film. Who would want to just listen to the audio for a movie? Trying to sync the DTS audio to a video tape, would be a pain. When the DVD comes out (2 days after the movie closes) then you have 5.1 DD and sometimes DTS right there on the DVD.

If DTS does use the system that relies on Wincrap's auto start function to load the anti-coping program into the computer, it will not affect the DTS players, because they run on good old DOS, and do not have Wincrap's auto start function.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-04-2003, 10:24 PM:
 
Bruce, presumably some films have some great tunes in the soundtrack that a worth lifting.

(I HATE recording them to *.wav from an analog source!)

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-05-2003, 04:40 AM:
 
It looks like somebody is already doing it!

I walked into an auditorium running Gothika in dts tonight and thought I heard a little something weird in a quiet scene. After listening to the crappy built-in speaker in the booth monitor I just couldn't hear it, but something possessed me to go back down and listen. Sure enough after I listened for a little while longer I realized I did hear something in the quiet scenes! None of the other guys in the theater heard anything weird, but one of them had a minidisc recorder in his car that he let me borrow, so I hooked it up to the monitor and recorded a bit of the audio so I could scrutinize it when I got home tonight. The noises are actually easier to hear when played in mono (which was the headphone output of the monitor) then they are when listening to the full 5.1 audio tracks playing together in the auditorium.

Listen carefully. (MP3 audio clip)
 

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Posted by Erick Akers (Member # 875) on 12-05-2003, 05:45 AM:
 
Brad,

Nicely done!

From the beginning of the clip I heard it very clearly, and continuously throughout the recording. The first two tones sound like a pager going off, followed by a patterned series of tones.

From my background in engineering sound, I find this totally annoying and fucking unacceptable!!!

I would rather hear Tape Hiss then This so called Superior Sound!!

Bring back the Mag Track, if that's the way it's going to be from now on. I would demand a refund over something
like this Bull Shit!

There are better ways to foil both digital and analog sound recording,and besides even I can eliminate this lame attempt to prevent sound piracy through the wonderful world of DSP.

Customers should be made aware of this in order to squash it now!!!

Brad,
Have you played the other soundtrack formats, to determine if they continued the practice on the Dolby Digital or the optical side of things?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-05-2003, 06:17 AM:
 
Brad, are you sure that those sounds are not some intentional part of the music/track?

It would be interesting to see if the same sounds were also on the DD/SDDS tracks as well.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Oscar Neundorfer (Member # 458) on 12-05-2003, 06:45 AM:
 
Brad,

What Phil said. Maybe it is a normal part of the soundtrack.

I have not seen the movie (Gothika) so I don't know what is going on in the scene you recorded. It sounds as if it could be part of the scene, but without the context, I can't tell. The sounds are certainly obvious enough, and if they do not fit in with the scene, then they would be quite annoying. However, from what I have experienced, most people at the movies would probably never hear it or just think it was intended unless it became really obnoxious and did not fit the context.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-05-2003, 10:06 AM:
 
This is kind of like the "tree falling in the forest" question.
If you did not know there are plans for copy protection, would you have thought anything of it?
I mean if you've got to make recordings of it and listen real carefully and play it only in mono etc etc, does it matter?
Would you have thought anything of it 2 months ago?
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-05-2003, 10:18 AM:
 

quote:

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If you did not know there are plans for copy protection, would you have thought anything of it?

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Apparently, nobody knew there were plans for the Deluxe CRAP code, but we still think something of it now that it's there.

I agree with the skeptics. Maybe it's part of the movie? It sounded to me like some Star Trek type equipment doing it's thing in the background.

Then again, it sounded a little bit like those digital "hiccups" on badly encoded MP3s, although not as loud and annoying.

If that IS a copy protection method, it will help our owner make his final decision between another DTS or another Dolby unit.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-05-2003, 10:26 AM:
 
The tones are there, plain as day.

Cut out the section of the track, amplify it and filter out as much of the dialog as you can you get this:

Beeps.mp3

Display graphically (as a sonogram) and you get this:



Yes, they are there. But, how/why they are there is yet to be determined. They look and sound like a modern version of the old Simplex tones.

Are you sure they couldn't have been inserted by some other piece of equipment in the chain? I have heard DSP-60s and CP-500s insert funky sounds into the mix when they malfunction, although NOTING like this!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-05-2003, 11:39 AM:
 
Randy, I cannot connect to your link. Please email it to me and I will put it on our servers.

The movie moves into an SRD house. I will try and catch the same scene tonight. Both are on CP65s.

 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-05-2003, 02:12 PM:
 
Down at the shop I get noise from the computer driven machines. They produce RF like mad. You can't hear AM radio at all within 50'. FM gets it too but not as bad. I could be something (not saying it is) like computers, cell phones or(in my case) computer driven stuff, ham radio operators etc etc. If it's repeatable then there goes that theory

Why not simply call DTS and ask if that particular film has their copy protection scheme on it?
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-05-2003, 03:13 PM:
 
The exact same set of tones occurs at approximately five second intervals. Brad's clip is about 26 seconds long. I heard the tones 5 times. I only picked out the easiest ones to filter for.
 

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Posted by Dennis M Dow Jr (Member # 1970) on 12-05-2003, 03:44 PM:
 
Has anyone thought this might have been a piece of equipment operating in the background... After all the movie is supposed to take place in a hospital.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-05-2003, 06:17 PM:
 
FWIW, I think that the industry is simply using "anti-piracy" as an elaborate excuse to destroy any chance that film presentations could possibly look good.

IMO, the studios are guilty of "stacking the deck" so that dCinema can look better by comparison.

That's just my little conspiracy theory based strictly on a deep-seeded paranoia as far as "big business" is concerned. In truth, I have never actually seen electronic cinema but I wonder if they use CAP code for those?
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-05-2003, 06:48 PM:
 
Well, if it is a kind of audio cap code, how long will it be before, just like what happened to the fairly unobtrusive Kodak codes, they start turning them into audio CRAP codes and putting them in the soundtrack at +3 DB?!..."just to make sure" they copy thru to handheld video cameras in the theatre.

I think there may be something to the RF theory though, we once got a series of beeps in our studio when we used a particular Crown Audio Tape Recorder. It would be heard well under the recorded audio, but there it was nontheless, and it ruined many a live recording, much to my frustration. I couldn't find out where it was coming from or how it was introduced into the recorder's electronics. I called in some other techs and we all trouble shot the bastard for weeks. The guess was, although it was never definately proven, that the beeps were part of a master clock system that sent adjusting tones over the AC line. I never actually believed that because there were too many holes in the theory. But no matter, the problem was magically solved (for me, anyway) when I got a new job in another theatre.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-05-2003, 09:25 PM:
 
Brad,

to my ears the beep can be clearly heard, without problems. I hope that that beeps are part of the soundtrack, otherwise DTS sound is over!!!!

BTW: Where is Karen?

Bye
A
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-06-2003, 02:24 AM:
 
Do these beeps occur throughout the movie or only in certain places? I would like to check them out, but don`t really have the time to watch all of "Gothika".
 

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Posted by Chris Trainor (Member # 9) on 12-06-2003, 03:35 AM:
 
The thing is, if this is intentional, it's something that could be created by the playback unit. Ideally each unit would insert something like this in low scenes with a coding based on it's serial number. That way if you keep track of which serial number player is in each theater you can find out instantly where the camcorder shooting came from. It would also be great for digital cinema... same thing. The digital projectors could insert CRAPCODE in a sequence relative to it's serial number or something. I'm sure every theater dumping $100k is gonna send back the warranty card. So they'd have a list of where each box is.

--Chris
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-2003, 04:33 AM:
 
Here is the same clip from an SRD auditorium (also with CP65).

SRD clip

I don't hear it, but I could flip flop players between the two auditoriums and see if the noise follows the digital format. I did not hear the noise during trailer green bands playing in dts though.

Anyone have this playing in SDDS?
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-06-2003, 04:55 AM:
 

quote:

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The thing is, if this is intentional, it's something that could be created by the playback unit.

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Yes, I think you are right. Somebody must have broken into Brad`s location and installed the SBCG (Secret Beep Code Generator) in the dts-, sorry, DTS-processor.
Have you been SBCGed? The only way to tell is to open the unit and look inside. Look for the square orange box where it says SBCG. But don`t remove it - it is booby-trapped.
 

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Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-06-2003, 07:23 AM:
 
Brad,

I listen to the clips many times with Winamp and my Grado headphones. The beeps are definitively not present in the SRD clip. I hope that it was a fault of your unit or a mistake in the DTS mix... It VERY annoying to me.

Bye
A
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-06-2003, 07:27 AM:
 
My oh my. Is this an XD10, 6D, or 6AD, Brad?

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-06-2003, 01:32 PM:
 
This wouldn't be on the unit that had the 3rd drive added to it, would it?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-2003, 01:50 PM:
 
Unmodified stock 6-D with Teac drives.

When I'm back over there in a few days, I'll check out another movie.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-06-2003, 01:59 PM:
 
Again - do the beeps occur throughout the movie, or just in some moments?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-06-2003, 02:10 PM:
 
Sorry Mike, I don't know. For all I know it's only one reel out of the movie, but I definitely heard it before this scene.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-06-2003, 02:14 PM:
 
Approximately where in the movie is this scene? I will try to catch it tonight.
 

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Posted by Dwayne Caldwell (Member # 417) on 12-06-2003, 02:43 PM:
 
Geez Mike! Weren't you listening to that clip? It's the part in the movie where Halle Berry finds out the girl she's been seeing has been dead for four years.
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-06-2003, 03:33 PM:
 
Is this a trick to make more people go see that movie?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-06-2003, 05:24 PM:
 
Yes. Film-Tech produced Gothika.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-06-2003, 09:04 PM:
 
Seems fishy to me. But then, maybe not. If the same clowns that came up with the new "cram-it-down-your-throat" visual code had anything to do with what came out of the DTS box, it would figure.

Just filtering out all harmonics in those tones would make them much less intrusive, yet still detectable (if needed).

Still waiting for someone to post an expose about the thousands of Chinese knock-offs that were traced back to some schmuck's theatre by way of these red turds they're dropping on our prints.

...I doubt that'll ever happen though.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-06-2003, 09:25 PM:
 
I'm positive I've heard these same beeps in DTS tracks before. I believe the first time I heard them was two summers ago.
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-06-2003, 09:48 PM:
 
The last DTS disk I saw was pressed, not recorded. There really isn't any way to modify each pressed disk in order to individually identify them like the CAPCODE burnt into the film image as each print is rolling through the printer.
Does anyone actually know what this DTS protection scheme is trying to accomplish?
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 12-07-2003, 02:24 AM:
 
Excellent point, Dave. But for the pure fun of speculation I'll venture the possibility that a suitably written dts.exe could access a serial number (of the CPU perhaps? I don't remember if CPUs have software-readable serial numbers) within the DTS unit, and based on a lookup table or a simple algorithm, determine a pattern of tones and/or a set of times to play the pattern back which would be unique to that processor.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-07-2003, 02:44 AM:
 
In the earlier days of computer-based broadcast automation, the audio cards were serialized and could be read by the software. This gave the software companies a way to gouge the stations by forcing them to single-source the cards from the software people.

Seems something like that could be done with dts... but you're still at the point that's been observed here already. It only takes one play through a legitimate system to expose the track (or the film... maybe even digital video?) to potential copy schemes. Then, all that anti-piracy and anti-copy garbage is worth zero. Too bad the industry is too preoccupied over who gets screeners.
 

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-07-2003, 02:44 AM:
 
Hello? Can anyone tell me approximately where in the movie this occurs?
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-07-2003, 03:46 AM:
 
Mike, it's at the part where she asks "Who is this girl?" and the guy sez it's his daughter Rachel.

I hope that helps. Good luck.

>>> Phil
 

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-07-2003, 05:11 AM:
 
As long as there are analog means to copy a soundtrack, there will always be piracy. Most ears cannot determine the difference between the actual thing and a pirated copy anyway as long as it involved top-of-the-line analog equipment that almost everyone can afford to purchase or already have in their possession.

For eons, people have been pirating analog sounds and they were (and are, for the most part), happy with the quality.

So who should really give a crap? I don't.

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing out there worth pirating in the first place. This includes movies, (which 90% are mostly garbage that is not worth the polyester stock it is printed on), sound tracks, CD's, or what have you. RIAA and MPAA are running scared. Everyone knows that. It is a monster created by the digital technology. And, there is nothing they can do to stop it because any good quality recording can be done by technology that is upwards to 60 years old, if not older. That being -- you guessed it -- analog means.

What I just said is a fact of life. Accept it.

I have run (and so have most of you) movies that we should pay the customer to watch!

OK - flame me....see if I care.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-07-2003, 05:48 AM:
 
Paul G. said:

quote:

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As far as I am concerned, there is nothing out there worth pirating in the first place. This includes movies, (which 90% are mostly garbage that is not worth the polyester stock it is printed on), <> I have run (and so have most of you) movies that we should pay the customer to watch!

OK - flame me....see if I care.

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Why flame you Paul? You are totally on the money. And you know what? GOTHIKA is one of them. In fact, I ran it as a FREE sneak and the patrons hated it.

Those beeps are a digital code that pirates have hacked into the digital datastream on the movie SET and inserted into the film's soundtrack. If you use the hacker's special software that they make available free on their website www,hackmeifyoucan.com, using metacap debyterizer technology, it will translate the code into text on your screen. I've run the beeps thru this software and it translates thusly: THIS PIECE OF DOG POO MOVIE WAS PIRATED BEFORE IT WAS MADE....JACK VALENTI SUCKS.
 

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Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 12-07-2003, 08:06 PM:
 
Could it be possible to modify the timecode on the film to contain the print number. The DTS machine then interprets these and plays a series of beeps or something depending on the print number. Could that be their new "security enhancement".

Anyway, thats my theory
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-07-2003, 08:15 PM:
 
Rather than burn a different CD for each theatre or make a new sound negative (!) for each print, it would be easiest just to have a "hardware ID" value built into each player which generates some sort of identifiable sound element (like the beeps) when commanded to do so by the encoded soundtrack. Presumably DTS knows where its units have been installed (for the most part) and could track down "hardware ID xxxx" to a specific theatre. One would expect that there would also be "special" players for screening rooms, premieres, etc. which wouldn't generate the annoying information.

Still (if this DTS code even exists), it wouldn't be any more useful than CAP code, as it would just identify the player used (and, presumably, the theatre), and not the actual pirate. It would be helpful for tracking down "inside jobs," but not for the "audience member with 24P camera" type of pirate.
 

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Posted by James Falloon (Member # 1933) on 12-07-2003, 10:09 PM:
 
ok, points taken Scott, that would be much eaisier to do. just take the BIOS / cdrom drive serial number (if it has one) or something

BTW here is a slightly enhanced pic, basically the same as on page 4, it is interesting to note, that the first two tones do not seam to have harmonics, but that could be a feature of the mp3 encoding.

Brad do you have that as an uncompressed wav file? i'm just interested to see what that would look like.


 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-08-2003, 05:12 AM:
 
Sorry, I returned the recorder to it's owner already and didn't think to save it in wav format.

Scott, I don't know why anyone would bother going to the immense trouble to pull the audio off of a digital format anyway when 2 channel SR is effortless to grab. I would assume most pirated tapes are mono anyway (well, at least the stuff that the studios don't actually make that gets into circulation).
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-11-2003, 08:35 PM:
 
I'm not quite sure that an ordinary DTS unit with its limited CPU power could add sounds to the output. Data is being delivered from the CD's to the decompression hardware but it would seem to me that to add...ADD not substitute...but ADD beeps to the track would require decoding the audio in software...mixing in the desired beeps...then re-encoding and delivering the data so that the audio can then be output by the same hardware.

What does our new DTS rep say about what those beeps are?

If this is in fact audio copy protection do we have a snazzy name for it yet? How about Pee Code (to go with Crap Code)?
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-12-2003, 06:46 PM:
 
have you tried calling dts about the "problem" with your system? if they can't troubleshoot it, maybe they'll replace it. if they have to keep replacing units, maybe they'll fess up. it's a long shot.

carl
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-12-2003, 09:37 PM:
 
For DTS to "serialize" hardware keys into the CDs it will take them knowing exactly where all active DTS-equipped theaters are and exactly how many units are in operation down to the serial number. I strongly doubt there are any fully accurate numbers on that.

One alternative may be utilizing a dongle. I have to use those damned things on my computer at work (one for FlexiSign Pro and another for Neon Wizard). It should not be too awful hard to put a parallel port on the older machines and simply use a USB version on the XD-10 models.

Still, I think the whole copy protection effort is a big waste of time. Much of the pirated movies on the Internet come from DVD screener discs, often before the movie is released to theaters. IMHO, this effort is just going to make it more difficult for legitimate DTS-equipped theaters to play their movies.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-13-2003, 02:13 PM:
 
Perhaps all of these "DTS Beeps" and visible CRAP code are exactly the "barely-noticable-by-the-average-consumer" subliminal messages that the industry is using to fuel its curiously-booming DVD sales?

"You know, Gothika really sucked but somehow I feel I still need to own the DVD."

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-28-2003, 02:38 PM:
 
Getting back to the point of this topic...

Anyone know what the first "uncopyable" dts disc title is supposed to be? I heard that it was to be LOTR3, so I tried to dupe them out of curiosity and had zero problems.

This whole thing all stems back to Valenti and will end up putting DTS out of business. At that point we will have Dolby Digital, which is what I preached to everyone back in the mid-90's to put in anyway after evaluating the 3 options. Few listened and purchased with their pocketbooks or went with SDDS because they wanted "the best" (again, deciding with their pocketbooks).

At least it will be nice to only have to deal with one sound format.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-28-2003, 03:03 PM:
 
I doubt there will ever be a unplayable DTS system as it would be virtually impossible to implement a system that would be playable on all the versions of firmware out there
To copy a disk maybe a different story but to playit I don't think that will happen
 

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Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 12-28-2003, 03:21 PM:
 
Back in the days of DOS and software anti piracy attemps. I ran into a number of programs that were so well copy protected that they would not operate in my computer. This problem varied from computer to computer. Eventually the software manufacturers gave up or went to dongles. Now we have on line registration.
Time will tell I guess, but does anyone think that the pirates that the industry fears will not beat the encryption techniques? Or will not simply take a copy off the analog outputs of the DTS/SRD/SDDS systems?
It's all pretty silly if you ask me. What moron would not wait a couple of months to have a real official non pirate copy with excellent picture and sound.
 

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