This is topic Threading Projectors- top/bottom or bottom/top (revisited) in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Stephen Woodward (Member # 2083) on 12-14-2003, 11:19 PM:
Hi all. Glad to come on board to be an active member in discussion. My thought concerns what is "right" proceedure for threading a projector. Both styles have their own merits and loyal followers.
Lately many having been jumping on the bottom to top threading bandwagon, unfortumately some people take it to extreme. Most people I have known for years in our local area have always threaded top to bottom as has been the practice forever. Seemed logical to me, film flows in that direction and gravity goes there too. I have worked with Motiographs, Brinkerts,Simplexes and Centurys and each worked just fine top to bottom. I now work for a large chain that that doesn't have projectionists, they are now "assistant managers". THey also have a certification program with many levels. Hypothetically ,no one works a booth until minimum level 1 training. I've got over 7 yrs solid projectionist experience with many as head projectionist. I am very fussy about doing it well. I have also developed a film trough system that eliminates the argument of "film touching the floor", also the trough protects the tailend of the film and scratches in the rating near the end of film are mostly eliminated. I don't believe that any one way is the only acceptable way to thread. I would think that the projectionist focus should be on show quality and consistancy not on being forced to do it one way over the other. I am curious what others views are on this topic.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-15-2003, 12:13 AM:
Simple, a film "trough" will get just as dirty as the floor does. If keeping the trough clean is the goal, why not just keep that part of the floor clean? Seems like a wasted effort to me.
There are two EASY ways of keeping the leader off of the floor:
#1 Thread from bottom up. (This method is also quicker)
#2 Clip the film to the edge of the projector with a clothespin (some people stick it in the holdback sprocket instead of using a clothespin), then thread down normally.
Either way, the leader never hits the floor and both are professional ways of running a booth. Setting up and maintaining a trough would be more of a hassle than just using a clothespin for those set in their ways to thread down.
Posted by Bryan Fournier (Member # 264) on 12-15-2003, 12:20 AM:
I have always threaded up top to bottom. That is the way I was taught and seems the most natural way to due it. I understand the argument about the leader touching the floor and how threading up bottom to top can help avoid that, but if your booth is clean and you run a film cleaner (with Film-Guard of course)especially when mounted on the platter collum (ie. Christie AW3) that should be a minimal problem.
Can you explain in more detail about how your trough works?
Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 12-15-2003, 01:42 AM:
I thread intermittant to top, then to bottom.
However when I have finished winding on to takeup, turn off the platter. The takeup arm has enough leeway to thread, then turn the platter back on.
Posted by Stephen Woodward (Member # 2083) on 12-15-2003, 01:49 AM:
Okay Bryan. What I did was look for a surface that would be clean and easy to monitor just to make sure it didn't get dirty or oily. I found that Rain-go gutter worked great. Its sold at Ace Hardware stores and is white vinyl with special slick plastic coating in its belly to help wash leaves and debris down it (when on a house). I took and cut a 10 ft piece in half and then attached 2 by 4 blocks to each end to raise it to cradle the flow of the film from the projector to the platter tree. The film when under tension misses the sides and bottom by more then 1 inch and it never touches anything while in motion. I have Xetron consoles and Christie platters(AW3) and Century turret heads and sound. The end by the console is attached to the edge of the bottom plate with industrial velcro. The other end sits bare block to floor with reference marks drawn on floor for position. The neat thing is its clean, white and very visible and helps bring your attention to the film crossing near the floor area. Less likely to accidentally trip over the film. It "breaks away" easily so as not to be a hazard to staff if accidentally kicked. The gutter cuts on the ends for a smooth rounded edge and I attach the gutter to the blocks with deck screws in ss shields so no sharp or rough surface could ever catch the film. I"ll try and attach a couple pics on another post. I've used them for couple months now and the $5.75 total cost per is nice. I have a couple other tricks in my thread up process that gives me just enough leader to pull down to thread the head without having a bunch touch the floor at my feet. When I am pulling the film around the head from the top roller its easy to lay the leader into the trough and then start the threading. One gain is I don't have the tail of actual film drag across the floor at drop anymore and no more scratched up ratings at the end of film.The way I do it, I don't have to bump or rotate the motor after thread up. The start of dark leader is right at timedown for on screen (its the distance from the tower to the aperature for count down. The trough being on the outer edge of the console keeps it out of the path of dripping oil or debris from the head area. Trough starts a few inches to the side of the bottom return roller and stops just before the bottom return roller on the platter tower/tree. Film drop down on the Chrisie AW3 also seems more controlled now and stays in the rollers at drop.
Posted by Jeff Klump (Member # 1870) on 12-15-2003, 02:25 AM:
I was taught to thread top to bottom, but then trained myself to do it the other way. I find it faster to do as well as easier on the film to do it bottom to top. Still, I'm the only projectionist in the booth i work at that does it. I've tried to pull others towards my band wagon, but no takers yet. I guess rveryone is to set on their ways.
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-15-2003, 05:25 AM:
the trough sounds good to the extent that you are good about keeping it clean. have you tried putting a lid on it that flips in place once you've threaded? then there's virtually no opportunity for dust to get in there after your morning cleaning.
what i'd worry about is other projectionists not being as rigorous about cleaning, but that's a concern with any system.
carl
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-15-2003, 08:00 AM:
I used to thread top to bottom forever. I was trained that way, but fortunately I didn't believe that just because that's the way I learned that it was the best way. I started threading bottom to top, and while it took a short time to get used to, my threading is quicker and far more accurate. Plus the first thing that shows on the screen is cleaner.
Think about it: First set the intermittent right where it needs to be. You pull the film to engage the take up platter FIRST, and then pull the film to the holdback sprocket. Then thread UP, pulling more film from the payout deck as you go. It is so much easier it is not even funny. It's WAY more natural, and you thread with consistent loop sizes each and every time. When threading top to bottom, you'll usually have to go back and adjust a loop size or two. That' a waste of time.
I was able to try it a new way. Are you? And don't just try it once and say "Arg I'm not used to this I can't handle it I quit!". I've never seen anyone who threaded bottom up want to thread top down ever again. I forced a bunch of projectionists who were used to threadin top down to thread bottom up, and now they teach others to thread bottom up.
Anyone who takes pride in their work will want to o it the best way, and this is the best way, hands down. If you disagree, you are wrong.
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 12-15-2003, 08:35 AM:
Joe, if you are having difficulty setting consistent loops regardless of threading direction, perhaps more traing is needed or there are dexterity issues.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-15-2003, 08:46 AM:
Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I said threading bottom up provides consistent loop sizes each and every time. Where did I write that I was having trouble with my loop sizes? I was saying that many people have to adjust back or forward a sprocket or two when threading top to bottom since it is less efficient.
I love people stuck in their old ways, thinking it is the best way because "that's how they've always done it".
Posted by David L Parlier (Member # 1944) on 12-15-2003, 08:48 AM:
I would now have to agree that threading bottom to top is the way to go. I had been originally taught to thread a projector from top to bottom and did it that way for years. Upon learning that there just might be a better way to thread a projector I gave the bottom to top method a shot. Yes, it did seem a little awkward at first but after a few times it seems like the natural way to thread the projector. After learning how to thread bottom to top properly I gave a lesson to my projection staff and told them to use this method effective immediately. There was some fussing about threading this way but they soon found the benefits of bottom to top.
quote:
I would think that the projectionist focus should be on show quality and consistancy not on being forced to do it one way over the other.
Yes, the focus of the projectionist should be on film quality and consistency, and I found threading bottom to top increased both of these.
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-15-2003, 09:35 AM:
Like Joe, I was initially trained threading top to bottom. When I first made the switch to bottom to top threading was awkward (old habbits die hard) and temporarily slower. When I got the hang of it, it was acutally faster than top down, the leader stayed cleaner, didn't get as mangled, also loop size was EXACTLY the same each and every time. Now the few times where I HAD to thread top down for one reason or annother was very awkward and slow. Its really a matter of what you're used to.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-15-2003, 10:36 AM:
I thread from the intermitent opposite directions
Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-15-2003, 12:23 PM:
A few benefits that I have noticed other than keeping the leader off the floor:
If you thread top to bottom and then pull on the leader from the projector to engage the take up platter there are some other negative effects. If the take up is not calibrated just right then the platter will spin more than it needs to and creates tom uch tension in the take up rollers and leader. (I can speak only for Strong platters as that is all I have used) Thus causing the takeup carraige rollers to become loose and damaging your clear leader.
The above results in 1. wasted time on platter maintenence, 2. wasted money on damaged leader.
Also, when the tension builds up it may pull the bottom roller (going back fromt he projector to the platter) out of alignment and SCRATCH the print.
That is the main reason I thread and teach others to thread bottom to top, not som uch to keep the leader off the floor, which I try my best to do.
Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 12-15-2003, 12:34 PM:
The Strong Platters are the problem in your case Chris. The elevator does not have even enough travel in it to keep from Slamming at the top end no matter how fast you take the slack out of it. On the other hand, Platers that have a great deal of travel in the take up mechinism do not have this problem, ie Christie AW 3 and Speco LP270's come to mind real quick. Possibly the Kinoton ST200 platters might have enough play to keep from slamming the take up arm and rollers, but I have never seen one in person so I can not tell you exactly how far that particular arms traveles in its movement.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-15-2003, 01:08 PM:
But Chris also touched on something very important...when threading top to bottom, there is no tension on the film from projector back to platter. As such, I've seen many times where someone threaded top to bottom, then when the film was laying on the floor and pulled taught after threading, the film jumped a roller and severely scratched the film.
It's not worth it. Like was said before, just because you were taught one way of doing things does not mean it is the best way to get the task done. Those flat out dead set in their ways can still use the clothespin trick to maintain slight tension on the leader and keep it off of the floor.
Posted by William T. Parr (Member # 677) on 12-15-2003, 04:22 PM:
This is very true Brad. I my self was taught top to bottom threading long ago. But what I do is thread by placing the film the lower pulldown sprocket and setting the tension at taht point then proceed to thread from top to bottom as you have mentioned as an alternative. Come on guys it is not that Hard
Posted by Bryan Fournier (Member # 264) on 12-15-2003, 04:26 PM:
Brad/Joe
You guys seem pretty adamant about threading up bottom/top and you may be accurate about all the advantages. I will have to give it a try. Could you explain in more detail how threading bottom/top causes consistant loop size and top/bottom does not? I have never had a problem with loop size threading top/bottom.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-15-2003, 04:44 PM:
I use Gordon's method (start at intermittent and then work up and down) and never have any trouble with loop sizes. I would think that upper and lower loops would be off by up to two perfs if one started anywhere above or below the intermittent.
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-15-2003, 05:49 PM:
not if you keep in mind the proper positioning of the framelines on the sprockets. that's one reason bottom-up is difficult to learn cold: you need to be familiar enough with the equipment to know where those framelines are supposed to fall. or else be content to do some trial-and-error at first until you learn the sweet spots.
carl
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-15-2003, 06:18 PM:
Threading from the bottom up has its advantages. It is easy to do with Christie projectors. But when you are fooling around with soundheads like the 5-Star, I find it not worth the effort.
However, if the booth has remote starts from the popcorn salesperson's station, I would highly recommend turning off or at least defeating the automation before threading. It is very painful to get your fingers fouled in the projector's sprockets because some dilrod saw a green light and pushed the button.
Sure...you can thread the failsafe absolutely last, but that just leaves more room for error. I have seen people not completing the threading mode for one stupid reason or another-especially around the fail-safe area.
Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 12-15-2003, 07:07 PM:
If you decide to try bottom/top threading, make sure to give yourself plenty of time, and don't just give it the old college try. Stick with it for a week or so, force yourself. Soon it will be an old hat, and you'll hate to go back.
BTW, the Cinemaccanica is a SNAP to thread bottom/top.
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-15-2003, 07:21 PM:
Gordon said:
quote:
I thread from the intermitent opposite directions
I would have thought you threaded counterclockwise, left-to-right... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
>>> Phil
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-15-2003, 07:30 PM:
It's easy.
1. Thread the projector so that the loop sizes are "perfect" using any means it takes.
2. Turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown and stop right there. Do not continue to crank the motor further into the stopped position of the intermittent.
3. Look at where the frameline is on the holdback sprocket. Let's say as an example that it is at 11:00.
So there you have it. From this point forth, every time you go to thread that model of projector, turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown cycle. Then put the threading leader so that a frameline is at 11:00 on that last sprocket. You will achieve perfect loop sizes every time, without need to readjust.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-15-2003, 08:14 PM:
A perfect example of why it's best to go bottom to top...
We have a cleaner come in and clean the booth every Tuesday in addition to us maintaining this throughout the rest of the week. We have four projectionists in the booth each week. Three of whom thread 'up' and one who, no matter how much we tried to get him to thread 'up' continued to thread 'down' and put the leader on the floor.
Recently he left the company. Within a week the leaders are cleaner and the trailers are all cleaner as a direct result of that. I know the leaders are cleaner as we have a 45 second run-down to the start point from the thread point so those 45 seconds of the leader go through the filmguard media. The media in that point used to be very dirty and now...much, much better.
It may seem like a pain to thread 'up' as you really need to learn to do it all over, but it soon becomes second nature to you. In fact, when I'm threading a dolby loop and thread it 'down' I find now I'm all thumbs.
Thread 'up'...you'll never regret it and your prints will thank you.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-15-2003, 08:25 PM:
Someone said that it's tough to learn threading bottom-up cold. Not true. I have trained a few projectionists to do this, and they don't even know of the top-down method. They did it perfectly every time. Just another reason I like having people with no booth experience so I can train them correctly to begin with vs people with experience who have to "relearn".
Posted by Nate Lehrke (Member # 1460) on 12-15-2003, 10:56 PM:
I used to thread from top to bottom because I never even considered the other way, but god intervened and I ended up at the same ![[bs]](graemlins/bs.gif)
hole theatre as Joe. He (Joe) taught me the correct way to thread after witnessing by top to bottom sin. It was so easy to learn and makes more sense than top to bottom.
I've even started teaching new assistants the correct way. Loops are always the same size regardless who may have thread it plus it will never start out of frame. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Jason Black (Member # 684) on 12-15-2003, 11:07 PM:
I thread top to bottom ,as I was trained and my leader never hits the floor.
I have Strong platters with Christie projectors (which is irrelevant). The first thing I do is turn the take up platter switch off before pulling the trim ring from the payout platter. Pull trim ring, thread thru payout, across to the projector & back to the take up platter. I spin up the takeup until my leader is close to midway between the platter tree and projector. I step around and thread, going back once more to turn the take up platter on. I can thread any of my houses, with both Cat 701 & DTS penthouse readers in less than a minutes time. They are threaded in frame with proper loop sizes every go-round using my method.
My theory is, if it works for me, and my leaders don't hit the floor, why change?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 12-16-2003, 12:12 AM:
I agree with Gordon. I start from the intermittent so the film is in frame back to the top. Then from the lower sprocket down. When I first pull film out of the upper reel it is tucked in the lower reel with a little slack without hitting the floor then threading begins.
Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 12-16-2003, 12:15 AM:
Gordon said: quote:
I thread from the intermitent opposite directions
I do, too.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-16-2003, 03:27 AM:
As do I. That seems to be the most logical way since it is the intermittent relationship to the frame line that determines where everything else will fall. But how can this be since the ONLY way to thread now is bottom to top, correct?
I assume you are all talking about platter operation, and here bottom to top may have advantages I don't see immediately. But in the case of R-T-R, threading from the intermittent/framing window, as Gordon, Scott and William all point out, beats both top/bottom and bottom/top. It gets me perfect loops every time and nothing ever touches the floor. What more do you want? If I have a print with excessive lab gack ahead of frame lines, I either add a foot of extra visible frame line junk at the very head and thread there, or even faster, just run it through the frame counter and mark half a dozen framelines at the very end of the leader. Nothing ever touches the floor.
This idea that because one guy finds advantages in one method, that makes every other method incorrect, is bull. Seems like all of a sudden you are making it out that threading bottom/top is akin to curing a brain tumor with delicate surgical instruments and threading top/bottom has become like drilling into the skull with a 3/4in power drill to get the tumor. This is only threading, guys....if it can be done so that the film gets threaded properly and isn't damaged in the process, what's the difference in how someone acheives it? And as for efficiency, what is "not efficient" to one operator may be perfectly efficient to another, even if only because he finds it more comfortable. It's like telling a lefty that it's inefficient to write with his left hand because you write with your right....unless of course you are the Threading Nazi. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Seems to me that in the last 60 or 70 years of threading projectors, that if SOMEone....ANYone of the hundreds of thousands of projectionists and projector manufacturers would have discovered that threading bottom/top was the incredibly more superior way to do it, it would have somehow been discovered before the 21st century and worked its way into the craft....if indeed it made that much of a difference, that is.
Besides, I think it is highly commendable that Stephen W. (welcome Steve), has gone to some extraordinary means to achieve a laudable end. And he's achieved that end quite well, albeit unconventional. I give him A for at the very least his ingenuity and A+ for desire to protect the print and do film right. Let's not piss on it right out of the starting gate, eh?
Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 12-16-2003, 04:33 AM:
I have tried to convert our whole booth to the bottom / top method, because I believe it has strong merits.
I only switched a few months back, however find it a lot easier and quicker to lace backwards (top to bottom.) A trainee who had laced both ways was sold on the bottom to top method, as he found loops easier to size and was more aware of lacing over the last roller before the cowling.
I think it comes down to how open you are to change. Just before this we swapped to emulsion out (soundtrack up) on platter after 12 years of lacing base out. The most important thing is that the whole team changes, or any experimentation will not have any consistency for you to draw comparisons.
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-16-2003, 06:47 AM:
my take on this is that bottom-up is a simple and effective means of keeping the leader off the floor in a platter booth. i don't think it has any advantage when it comes to framing right or loop sizes. either method, if done right and checked afterwards, is equally good as far as that is concerned.
i don't make others thread bottom-up. we have clothespins by each projector and atop each platter tree, for those who want to do that. i think the most intuitive way to teach threading is to start at the intermittent and work down, showing how the offset of the soundtrack and proper tension on the sound drum etc. determine the ideal loop sizes. it's just easier to understand how everything is interrelated that way. once those principles are in place, any other method will be pretty easy to learn.
that's just my feeling. go with whatever works for you, unless it's wrong.
carl
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-16-2003, 09:27 AM:
Paul's point about operator safety with a remote-controlled or automation-controlled projectors is a good one. If the film break detector below the soundhead is the only thing telling the system that the projector is not ready to "go", be sure to find a way to prevent remote/automatic start while your fingers are still near the sprockets. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Stephen Woodward (Member # 2083) on 12-16-2003, 09:49 AM:
Thank you Frank and Carl for making the true point of this post. I am glad it has generated so much interest as it shows you all do take the job seriously. I can appreciate both views on the subject. What I do hate, and I mean hate, is those who think that no matter what, their way is the only way and feel that shoving it down someone's throat is the only way to go. I have worked in only platter booths. I was taught by an old-timer who really cared about presentation. A lot of chains don't look at the heart of their business and that IS projection. All other aspects of theater rely on a quality show to draw the customers. Gimmicks and all aside, quality in the booth is paramount. The issue of any film touching a dirty floor or being stepped on while trying to thread a unit is very important. What many people ignore is that the leader is meant to be expendable and as not part of the actual "film" being shown, it is sacrificial. On the other hand, the tailend of the film hitting the floor and dragging across rough or dirty surfaces does cause direct damage to viewable product. No one has addressed this issue seriously to this point. For all the arguments pro and con on direction of thread, still no "cure" for the tailend. That is why I came up with the film trough idea. I put it together and the simplicity of it is astounding. Brad thinks that it has to get just as dirty as the floor but I don't know how it could unless your booth rains debris over everything. You don't step in the trough so no foot dirt. It doesn't sit directly below the projector so it doesn't catch drips or grunge from the machines. Being clear clean vinyl, it wipes down easily and the white of it makes "any" dirt stand out and beg cleaning. It is a very visible barrier to remind all in the booth that film crosses low in a usual dark area. I know of many who while working around a machine that was running accidentally connecting with the lower return of film, luckily not tripping it out and shutting down the show. Any thing we do should be done in the booth to make sure whoever is running the equipment is paying attention to the job. I don't care if you find top to bottom or bottom to top better or not, but whatever you choose to do- do it well. Take pride in your job reflecting your personal pride and work ethic. For those of you who want to "dictate" that your chosen method is better then others and refuse to be openminded, I think the old EGO has gotten the best of you. If my equipment were more prone to better threading from bottom up I would most likely do it. But with Christie platters and Century head with Century tension sound-heads and old and clunky fail-safes, the bottom up method just opens too many gates for error especially in a company that feels "anyone" can run a projector and doesn't have projectionists but has "assistant managers" and even relies on non-mechanical people to operate "very mechanical" equipment. I offer to you all a simple cheap solution to "film touching the floor" by offering my film trough idea. It works pure and simple and that's good enough for me. Have fun all!
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-16-2003, 09:57 AM:
The solution to the dirty tail problem is to add 15-20 (or more) feet of clear leader to the tail of the print. This way, only the clear leader touches the floor and the actual lab leader stays pristine. If your theatre is too cheap to buy new clear leader, you can soak old trailers in bleach (which removes the emulsion) and then rinse the film with a solution of water and a tiny bit of Photo-Flo (available at camera stores).
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-16-2003, 10:09 AM:
Dilute hypochlorite laundry bleach (e.g. "Clorox") dissolves gelatin emulsion. Rinse in warm water. The "Photo Flo" helps prevent water spotting. Squeegee the film, and festoon (hang) it in a clean area to dry. What you have left is clear plastic film base.
Use caution with any chemical. Use safety goggles and chemical-resistant gloves, and don't get any bleach on/in your skin, eyes, or clothing. Use in a well-ventilated area, outdoors if possible. Dispose of the used bleach solution properly.
Protein-dissolving enzymes (similar to meat tenderizer or contact lens enzyme cleaner) also can be used to dissolve and remove gelatin emulsions. Since they "chew" away at the emulsion layers slowly, you can actually remove one emulsion layer at a time by varying the time the enzyme is allowed to work.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-16-2003, 11:09 AM:
Stephen,
Please use paragraphs when you post. Making one paragraph lengthy posts is annoying to read.
As Scott addressed earlier, adding extra tail leader is the key to preventing the end of the credits from being damaged. You have only been around for a week or two here, but these things have been discussed to death here, so don't expect a full blown answer from everyone on such an old topic. May I recommend before you continue to put your foot in your mouth that you read the archives and do searches on things before you post. There are many things in your post that are ridiculous.
"Old timers who really care about presentation" usually is someone who is dead set in HIS ways and forces that down YOUR throat. The people here, including myself, have for the most part started working the booth with those type of practices, and have tried alternative ways and found them to be the superior method for running a professional booth. Keep that in mind before you make another ignorant remark like insinuating that these guys do not have the better procedure just because it is different than what you were taught and are blindly following. Until you have fully tried both (and I don't mean for a few days), you are the one who is being one-sided. Once you try bottom up though, you will change, as I have yet to find someone who hasn't. (Note this does not necessarily apply to reel to reel operation, as frequently the easiest method is to start at the gate.)
"The leader is expendable and since it is not part of the actual film being shown is sacrificial." You've got a lot to learn, and this has been explained before on these forums. The short, short answer is that if your leader is dirty, that dirt winds on the next layer of film on the platter, then on the next show that transferred dirt transferrs to the next layer of film, and so forth and so on. This is why without my even visiting your theater I know with that kind of attitude that the first piece of film on a platter roll that hits the screen does not look absolutely flawless, like it should.
"The film trough being clear clean vinyl wipes down easily and the white of it makes "any" dirt stand out and beg cleaning." I've got news for you, it may LOOK clean, but it isn't unless you're wiping it down every day. A speck of dirt that is undetectable to you looking down at that trough WILL project to the screen. Remember, the images on that film that are less than an inch in size frequently are magnified to 30, 40, 50 (or more) feet on the screen!
"For those of you who want to "dictate" that your chosen method is better then others and refuse to be openminded, I think the old EGO has gotten the best of you." You're new to projection, it's obvious. In time you will see that these guys may have a little bit of an ego, but they deserve it. Your ego with this invention-of-the-century known as the film trough is nothing special at all. If you want to improve your presentation, get yourself some kind of online film cleaner. Even the worst ones will do a far better job of keeping the film clean than your trough.
"If my equipment were more prone to better threading from bottom up I would most likely do it." Oh please! You have probably the easiest equipment out there for bottom up threading! You're going to make a great old-timer who is dead set in his ways.
I know your heart is in the right place, but you really need to start looking back at the older posts here for answers and full discussions to these simple issues before you continue to post.
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-16-2003, 12:10 PM:
quote:
BTW, the Cinemaccanica is a SNAP to thread bottom/top.
Really? Threading the V8 bottom-up makes me want to cry sometimes. The lower holdback sprocket's pad roller only opens about 1", making it hard to even get the film past the 70mm sprockets onto the 35. (I almost want to remove that stupid piece that prevents it from opening further.)
I've tried threading bottom-up many times, but my leader still touches the floor no matter what I do. I know, I'm doing something wrong and I'll probably figure it out eventually, but when I thread as Gordon does, (Intermittent up, then intermittent down) the leader doesn't hit the floor as much as the bottom-up method. I know, I know, "Thomas you are doing something wrong if this is the case..."
A couple of projectors set up by lazy techs who added a digital reader and ran the wires so that they're between the projector and the port window wall, causing you to HAVE to thread both the upper and lower magazine rollers when threading the platter makes the leader hit the floor anyway. So which way you thread the projector would be irrelevant.
Still, I gotta beat the "pull all the leader onto the floor" habit out of the doofus that insists he was shown by a Union guy to do it that way so it MUST be right. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
=TMP=
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-16-2003, 05:21 PM:
with the assumption that the trough is rigorously kept clean, it seems to me that its ability to protect the tail end from the floor is a distinct advantage. surely, if dirt migrates from the leader to the first trailer, it can do so in reverse from the tail end as well, if maybe not quite as efficiently because a given length of film doesn't have as many "wraps" at the tail end, and nothing follows it through the projector.
ensuring sufficient tail leader is good of course, and should be done regardless. but why on earth go to trouble of bleaching it? so what if it's from a kangaroo jack trailer? nobody's going to see it. and if the bleach is not properly washed off, the film will be gummy, sticking to itself and attracting dirt.
carl
Posted by Bryan Fournier (Member # 264) on 12-16-2003, 07:36 PM:
Both arguments seem to have valid points. Maybe in a larger theatre say 10+ screens threading bottom up saves a few seconds off thread up time and is more efficient (particularly with Christie projectors). In a smaller theatre (less than four screens) maybe there is no distinct advantage. Your not in such a rush so you can take the time to ensure the film is seated properly on all the rollers and loops are of correct size. As long as film/leader is off the floor (we all seem to be in agreement about that one) then why call one method inferior.
The safety issue is a valid point when remote starting location are involved.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-16-2003, 10:07 PM:
It doesn't seem plausible that the film trough could ever be clean; it sits in the open atmosphere.
Could someone please explain how the premise has some legitimacy?
Sure, if the film trough is clean, the method is OK (well, ignoring the microscratches you'd necessarily get by setting the film-in-trough instead of floating in the air), but the "if" seems impossibly large.
What am I missing?
--jhawk
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-16-2003, 10:11 PM:
I guess it would be as clean as the exposed empty top platter deck would be
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-16-2003, 10:41 PM:
quote:
...but why on earth go to trouble of bleaching it? so what if it's from a kangaroo jack trailer? nobody's going to see it. and if the bleach is not properly washed off, the film will be gummy, sticking to itself and attracting dirt.
Some people prefer to use either clear or opaque leader, rather than old trailers with pictures and soundtrack on them. I agree with you that they will never be seen or heard anyway if you've made up and cued the print properly. The bleaching idea was brought up because some people have difficulty getting their management to buy "real" clear leader.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-17-2003, 12:00 AM:
I use bleached film for leader and many other things.
Besides the uses others have mentioned, I use it to replace heads and tails from reels of film that have been lost by other people. It's easy to take a Sharpie and write the title and ID of the reel. "Title" - R1 - H
It's also good for checking the sizes of your loops. Splice a piece of clear bleached film in between your framing leader and the black leader before the start of the program. Thread up normally and double check to make sure your loops are right. Run the film down by hand until there is nothing but clear film in the projector. Now, take a Sharpie marker and carefully reach into the aperture from the front and mark the film with a star. Mark an "X on the film on the sound drum directly over the exciter lamp/LED. If you have any digital penthouses, mark "X" next to the scanning points of those units too.
The next time you thread and you want to check to see if your loops are correct all you have to do is run the film down until the star is in the picture aperture again. If all of your "X" marks are in the right places you know that you have threaded the projector EXACTLY the same as before.
It makes a good training aid if you so desire.
I also use it as an aid to vary my sound advance.
If I'm the only one watching the movie during a pre-screening I will thread the projector "early" so that the lip-sync is correct for my seating position. I sit in the last row of the balcony. The speakers are 110 feet from that position, leaving a 0.1 second delay in the sound if the projector is threaded "dead-nuts-on". I'll thread the projector 2 or 3 sprocket holes "early" to compensate. An extra mark for the "early" setting and a one for "dead-nuts".
PS: I'm using a 5-Star sound head. The spring tension of the idler roller gives me slack to adjust the film.
As to threading "Up" or "Down". Usually, I thread like Gordon and start in the gate. After that, as long as the film doesn't get on the floor it doesn't matter to me as long as the projector is threaded right. Sometimes if I'm in the mood, I'll experiment one way or another.
Oh... One last thing in reference to one way of threading being faster than another: I don't care how fast or slow my workers thread as long as it's done RIGHT! If the extra nine seconds you save in threading is so critical then you aren't managing your time right! Even in a 20-plex with 10 minutes between shows, if you don't slack off and you watch your show schedule you should have plenty of time to thread at your own pace and still have time left over! Fast threading contests are for amateurs!
Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 12-17-2003, 06:39 AM:
One important point if using non-bleached junk film as protection leader on the tail: Remember the SDDS processor will kick in if it sees an SDDS track on that junk film. I think SDDS will even read if the film is flipped (i.e. P & S tracks switched), or was it upside-down?... I can't remember exactly, but I thought I tried this once and SDDS still kicked in.
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-17-2003, 12:40 PM:
Well isn't the motto of SDDS "we'd rather play our sound at its worst than let you switch to anything else" ?
As for the topic at hand I think this calls for a video. I rarely use a platter so it matters little to me but I'd still like to see the advantages upwards threading has over lacing the platter bypassing the projector then threading conventionally.
Actually what might be cool would be a remote control for the projector motor--sort of like a car alarm key fob...pull film over to the projector and just enough to thread through the soundhead...then push the remote button to motor ahead while walking the end of the film back to the platter. An overkill solution probably.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-17-2003, 02:23 PM:
Steve, when threading upwards you still bypass the projector when threading the platter. You just grab from the bottom, engage the takeup and go up, pulling from the payout as you go. No excess slack!
Posted by Stephen Woodward (Member # 2083) on 12-18-2003, 01:22 AM:
Hi again. Just the ingnorant newbie here. How could I dare broach this topic again (that has been discussed so much), well with almost 50 posts on it, seems to be of some interest to a few of us.
I have not tried to shove any idea down anyone's throat. I made a personal observation and comment about my experience. I may not be as wise and all knowing as some of you, but I too like to try new things. If they work, great! If they don't, then back to the old way that did work. Am I wrong in this statement?
I am sorry I used a large paragraph, just easy when you have a thought train and go with it. Being creative is a curse. I will address the points that were raised about my short-comings.
First, if I add extra stock to the tail of the factory film and still try and cue my atuomation to close the zipper at the end of the projected pictures and not the clear and countdown and other garbage, then I have to place my cue at the right spot to do that. If I do the automation, it times out for just so many seconds and then shuts down (whether or not film is in the unit). A sudden shutdown with film still attached to a moving take-up platter is not a good idea.
I thank everyone who has replied to this post. I appreciate all your views and give each one equal value. I may not agree with all, just like you may not agree with me, but thank goodness we can have the freedom to politely disagree. I didn't realize I was chewing on my foot or I would have washed it better. Did I say the "old timers" were dictatorial, no. I tried to indicate that in the day before just anyone was thrown into a booth to thier own means, that those who chose the profession did on most part care about their work and doing it well. We have made great strides in inproving the art of projection and I'm sure some of it was contributed to by some of these fine fellows. I have worked under both types of "old timers" but I do not condemn all for a poor chosen few.
As far as labelling anything professional or not, I can not make the assumption of anyone's booth without personally visiting it and seeing for myself how they run it. I would never think of condemning another fellow projectionist just on my own slanted interpretation of what his opinions are. I never said that bottom up was inferior or wrong, but others do not offer the same reciprocation. I have tried the bottom up process in my booth and do not find it easier or better then what I already do. As you describe it, you load the platter to top roller then bottom roller at projector then back to return and then you go to the projector and set the tension to take-up and thread the fail-safe/automation and then from bottom up the sound head and drum and then up through the projector head having "perfect" loops before you even hit and "perfectly" place the frame of film in the aperature at the gate and close it and move up to your perfect loop at top before threading backwards through your DTS or SDDS (if you have it) and then all is set and ready to fire with no bumping or run down of excess leader. I admire your perfection. Now you tell me its so easy that the kid downstairs selling concessions can jump into the booth and run movies to perfection too. Where have I been sleeping? I always thought that you needed some mechanical skills to run and baby a good show through the odd and old and sometimes tired equipment that inhabits most booths.
Excuse me when I say leader is expendable but I thought it was. When it gets chewed up or worn out or dirty (from age), I usually throw it out and then start a clean and new one. They do get aged and chewed up fairly often. The issue of dirt is its own issue and not directly related to anything else. You knock the idea of a film trough because its new (as far as I know)and I don't suggest you go out and do it and I am not "selling" my idea because I just gave it out to anyone that might be interested. How else do new ideas get out if someone doesn't offer it? If the trough gets dirty (and you can't see it, what protects from the same dirt contaminating all the platter surfaces that are equally exposed. Did I indicate they can't be cleaned? Everything should be inspected and cleaned between each and every show not just once a night at close. I am so glad the assumption can be made in my suggesting a new idea, that my booth is automatically deemed dirty and my presantations are crap. I would never dare make that assumption of anyone's booth or operation. Its a slanderous statement I would never make.
When I thread, I lock in my top sprocket to hold the film from sagging, load my gate and frame, reset the top loop if needed, then proceed down setting the rest and I have perfect loops and dead-on tension and great speed and accuracy (but I still double check my loads and all paths before I start the film, as the old-timer taught me). I load my next show after the previous one drops and always have enough time to make sure the loads are right, I do not agree with last minute rushes to load cause that's where damage or brain wraps happen.
Under operation, the film never touches the trough and misses all surfaces by 1 or more inches, only 4-5 feet of leader lays at rest in the trough at lace up. I know my shows are good, no debris dancing on the screen, no scratches, in frame and in focus and I take pride in doing it well. Thank you for pointing out I must suck at it, because i don't happen to agree with you on a point.
I must be new to projection at only 7+ years doing it and being moved to head projectionist right off and keeping the equipment running smoothly and even showing the local tech how to free up a seized intermittent saving my company over $600 , at running projectors older then you unless you were born in 1930s and still without parts available, they run strong. The booth I'm in now is a lark compared to the other one I ran. I get mad at people being put to work running the equipment that haven't had decent training and do not care if the show is good or bad, just running on time. I guess I must suck at this job. And if I suck at this job, I hope many other of you suck too in the same way! If anyone would like a photo of the trough idea, I'll be glad to find some way to get it to you. Its not the greatest idea of the century, just an idea. If it was intended to boost my ego, wouldn't I be trying to sell it and make profit on it. No, I just offered it cause I cared, my mistake. Oh and by the way, I did read the FAQ and the very last paragraph in it was the most pertinent to this latest round, thank you for the education!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-18-2003, 02:03 AM:
Thank you for using paragraphs, however it would really be appreciated if you would lose that PC-covered smart ass attitude. Just because you word insults politely doesn't mean that they are acceptable. (PC'eze actually makes them insulting, when otherwise they may not have been.) Speaking in PC talk wastes bandwidth and quite frankly is annoying. It makes me feel like I am in a NATO meeting. Ever hear of the phrase "he's doing a lot of talking but not saying anything?"
Again, many of your issues are with just not knowing. Have you ever watched a spinning platter stop as the projector stops at the end of a show? It doesn't matter what make or model platter you have, ALL of them can come gracefully to a stop on their own. That is a lousy excuse to not protect the end of your film with adding extra film at the tail. In fact, your real issue is that of your automation not being set up properly. Any good operator knows where to place the shutdown cue and I think it's safe to say that 99% of all automations are capable of closing the douser and letting the projector motor continue to run until the film tails out. You should probably ask your tech about this, but by all means post the kind of automation you have and you will probably be surprised as someone quickly tells you what is set up causing the projector motor to shut down at the last cue.
You say you have tried bottom up. Great, but how long did you really try? And why in the heck are you putting the film in the lower magazine roller? Look in the tips section under "Threading 101" if you want to see how it is properly done. The projector and platter may be different, but the procedure is the same regardless of equipment. I only question how long you tried, because I have trained tons of floor staff (usually from 16-19 years of age) and all of them picked it up almost immediately. The same goes for people who already know how to thread.
How much do you pay for leader? Oh no wait, you probably don't pay for it out of your pocket, do you? A quality strip of leader can cost $20. That adds up FAST when you consider how much money is spent in a chain of theaters and going through it unnecessarily is a disservice to your company. If you set up your projector magazine rollers properly and follow the threading procedure outlined here, leaders can last for YEARS without becoming crinkled or dirty. The attitude that leader automatically gets chewed up from age is ridiculous. That is the same thing as saying "film just gets that way" in reference to why after a few months of running why there is any scratch or speck of dirt on it. Film does not get that way. Projectionists cause the film to get that way. A big difference.
Finally, titles like "head projectionist" really doesn't mean squat these days. There are people who have been promoted straight off of the floor staff and turned into a "head projectionist" within a month, and some projectionists have been promoted to technician after running projectors for less than a year.
If you did indeed read the FAQ, you already know how to post a picture of your trough.
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 12-18-2003, 12:47 PM:
Just what did you show your tech to free up the intermittent? What type of projector were they used in?
One thing you have to understand when running the booth or any job for that matter, is that you do not know everything there is to know about the job. It is a continuous learning experience. THose who think they know everything are the most dangerous to have around. If you did show your technician how to fix the intermittent don't make that look bad on him. Feel good that you were able to show him something useful and don't make it swell your head to ego sized proportions.
If you don't feel good about threading from bottom up use the clothes pin tip mentioned in previous posts. Don't feel that if we find something that doesn't sound logical to us, make you out to be ignorant. We all make mistakes and everyone is still learning and grasping new ideas.
I joined this site because I found it to be the most informative site around and somewhere that I could go for answers to various problems. Even if they are not directly related to my equipment, I want to know what the solutions are to remedy them.
I agree with Brad on the term head projectionist. It just no longer fits and is miss used anyway because everyone should be working as a team to help remedy the problems that effect their work environment.
Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 12-18-2003, 12:58 PM:
In my personal experience, I feel that it is best to thread as my boss teaught me. I do know that the bottom up is right and is easier but my boss is very controlling of the booth and if I don't do things her way it might be my job if I do things differently.
I told her from the get go, "It is your place and I'll do things how you say to do it." When I can get actual authority over the booth, then I will do things differently
Posted by Bryan Fournier (Member # 264) on 12-18-2003, 04:42 PM:
As others have said being set in your ways in this business is not the correct mind set to have. Acknowledging you don't know everything, and being open-minded and asking for help or advice when you need it is important.
This forum is a great resource for ideas and advice. There are many knowledgeable people who post and lurk here. I thank Brad and the other moderators for the web site and appreciate the helpful nature of most posts.
When great minds come together anything is possible!
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-18-2003, 07:16 PM:
head projectionist is an important postition as it is who the buck will stop with when there is problems in the daily operation of the booth
You can have a team but there must be the coach
As for the automation issue I prefer automations that tail out but I can count many that that is impossible to do with and it is unrealistic to expect it to be replaced just because it can't
One must do the best with the tools provided
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-18-2003, 08:38 PM:
quote:
One must do the best with the tools provided
Agreed. That includes for those with poorly designed automations that stop on the last cue of getting your butt over to the projector and motoring through the extra tail leader you added as well, rather than permitting damage to the film by keeping the tail short to save yourself a few seconds.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-18-2003, 08:47 PM:
Do the best with the tools provided
otherwise maybe a government run film nazi will dictacte all booth proceedures and some may not like that
Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 12-18-2003, 11:22 PM:
The definition of excellence as I've always described it whenever there are people "under" me is: 'Doing the best with what you have.' It's when there is an attitude of, 'well everything else stinks so why would I worry about that.' that hacks me off so much.
quote:
Steve, when threading upwards you still bypass the projector when threading the platter. You just grab from the bottom, engage the takeup and go up, pulling from the payout as you go. No excess slack!
When you say engage the takeup, do you mean as if you'd taken up the tension or just flipping the switch as on a Strong platter?
Just some thoughts and questions on the subject...
I pull my leader back and instead of hooking with a clothespin, I just hook it with the bottom sprocket in the soundhead. This keeps the leader off the floor and then I thread top to bottom.
quote:
It's easy.
1. Thread the projector so that the loop sizes are "perfect" using any means it takes.
2. Turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown and stop right there. Do not continue to crank the motor further into the stopped position of the intermittent.
3. Look at where the frameline is on the holdback sprocket. Let's say as an example that it is at 11:00.
So there you have it. From this point forth, every time you go to thread that model of projector, turn the projector motor over by hand until the intermittent just finishes it's pulldown cycle. Then put the threading leader so that a frameline is at 11:00 on that last sprocket. You will achieve perfect loop sizes every time, without need to readjust.
I'm of course a dullard sometimes so I'll ask at the risk of laughed at...
I'm not really following what is happening in this description. Is there a diagram? I'm more an arual(as in hearing something to the visual) learner and sometimes instructions are hard for me to follow in print.
quote:
If I'm the only one watching the movie during a pre-screening I will thread the projector "early" so that the lip-sync is correct for my seating position. I sit in the last row of the balcony. The speakers are 110 feet from that position, leaving a 0.1 second delay in the sound if the projector is threaded "dead-nuts-on". I'll thread the projector 2 or 3 sprocket holes "early" to compensate. An extra mark for the "early" setting and a one for "dead-nuts".
PS: I'm using a 5-Star sound head. The spring tension of the idler roller gives me slack to adjust the film.
These comments really have me concerned about what I have been doing. Is the amount of tension on the film around the sound drum what you are varying to move the sync around or is it in the processor that you're doing that? I know you have to time the soundhead all up but I've not known of a way be able to change that sync by adjusting the way you thread(2 or 3 sprocket holes early). That certainly isn't an argument against anything, I'm just totally in the dark which really concerns me.
As to the trough thing... I can see both sides. It is exposed so it will get dirty, but like Gordan said... so is the platter deck. The biggest thing I see is that it would have the tendancy to scratch the film. But, if the leader is what hits it, it won't be scratching film.
On the lab tail thing I have spent many an hour thinking about how to keep that from hitting the floor when the film is over. I mean, to me even an added tail I still don't want to hit the floor because the dirt will still get wedged in there. The only thing I can ever think of is some kind of roller assembly or stand.
Anyway, I do really like this forum because there is noone around here that I can discuss things like this with so many knowledgable people(even where there are disagreements, it's easy to see where the key issues are and what is just simply not acceptable.) I am just not quite in a position to be able to confidantly know which side I agree with totally or not. Still much I have to learn.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-19-2003, 02:59 PM:
quote:
Kevin Wale asked:
Is the amount of tension on the film around the sound drum what you are varying to move the sync around or is it in the processor that you're doing that?
Rather than steer this topic any farther off course, I have posted my answer HERE.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-19-2003, 06:02 PM:
quote:
Kevin H. Wale asked:
When you say engage the takeup, do you mean as if you'd taken up the tension or just flipping the switch as on a Strong platter?
I mean take up the tension... engaging the take up deck as normal. When I thread a switched Strong platter, I flip the switches to payout and takeup first. I lift the elevator and the take up starts spinning away as I thread leader. As I thread through the elevator, it naturally drops and the take up deck stops right when I get to it. I throw my leader into the notch and give it a half spin (or whatever you're comfortable with). I go to the projector and pull from the bottom, raising the elevator and making the take up deck spin. It comes to a gentle stop and then I thread the projector bottom up.
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-19-2003, 06:12 PM:
Tension on the sound drum shouldn't effect sync butthe size of the loop below the intermitent does
Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 12-20-2003, 12:04 AM:
Kevin "H" Wale? Was my question frustrating Joe? I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or anything. I hope I didn't annoy you.
Your answer was helpful. The Strong Platter we have is all messed up though and the pin keeps falling out so I have to spin the platter by hand. What I have done to keep the film off the floor is just to go ahead and put it through the bottom return roller and keep tension on it by hand and then thread. It's not the most efficient way to do it, but it works. I'm not fond of these platters though. I much prefer even the Speco platters a hundred fold.
Anyway, thanks as always guys. Everytime I log on I learn something. I can't think of another forum that I visit that is this educational to the point where I can put it to use everyday.
Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-20-2003, 12:40 AM:
Don't worry Kevin, I personally enjoy the hell outta frustrating Joe. He's used to frustration!
>>> Phil
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-20-2003, 12:53 AM:
I was not annoyed at all. I just have assigned you the letter "H" as your new middle initial for absolutely no reason whatsoever! Though if you don't like "H" you can choose from either "W" or "9".
Posted by Kevin Wale (Member # 1851) on 12-20-2003, 11:30 AM:
It doesn't bother me, I just saw and thought... uh oh, I ticked him off. I thought this mainly because when I was typing it I was aware that if I worded it wrong it would come off as a bit patronizing and haughty.
I hate these Strong platters so I whenever I see what people are doing with them to make life easier, I ask exactly what they mean. LOL.
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