Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: F.A.C.T. piracy overkill in UK

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Posted by Howard Johnson (Member # 62) on 12-23-2003, 03:39 AM:

As well as having the two silent warnings on front of the censor certificate regarding piracy and camcorders etc. threatening legal action we now have in the UK a sound F.A.C.T. commercial on front of the Pearl & Dean/ Carlton advert reel. This bleats on about the film and video industry being ruined and threatens our patrons with the police etc. FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!! People are paying £4-6 each for their ticket as well as paying high prices for refreshments in multiplexes. Can we not leave people alone to enjoy the film. Virtually all the piracy happens to studio and lab copies before they are even released. A shaky camcorder copy of the film with noisy people round will hardly make them a fortune.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-23-2003, 04:01 AM:

So it's reached the UK now. Welcome to our hell.

Posted by Liam Utley (Member # 1931) on 12-23-2003, 06:23 AM:

Do they give you any warnings not to remove the tag?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-23-2003, 06:42 AM:

I ran it a couple of weeks ago, it was part of the 'Pearl & Dean' (adverts). I think it's just an advert, like any other, and I very much doubt that you could just remove any advert because you didn't feel like showing it. The companies who use cinema advertising pay to have their adverts shown; they wouldn't be too happy if they were left out. Of course, any cinema can choose not to show advertising, and accept the loss of revenue, but they can't pick and choose.

I think the only circumstances where you can remove an advert is if the reel as supplied contains materialnot allowed for the age rating of the film. There used to be a warning notice from P+D to remove tobacco adverts for example, when these were still show in cinemas, if younger rated films were being shown.

Posted by Dan Harris (Member # 1759) on 12-23-2003, 06:52 AM:

I don't mind the simple titles and warning attached to the feature, but the FACT advert at the front of ad reels is very bad, and is getting more laughs than anything else. In any case, for the average film, there are hadly any people in when the ad's start, it would have made far more sense to put it at the end!

There was a note in with my Carlton reels last week instructing us not to remove them.

On a side note, I recently heard a rumour that the new Odeon trailer disclaimer titles (with the "Turn your phones off" thing) will include a warning similar to that on the FACT logo. So, only three times during a show the customer needs to be told this!!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-23-2003, 10:32 AM:

Yesterday I received a newsletter from the National Film Theatre. Included in it was the following:

Recording Equipment.

With the increase in the variety of equipment available for capturing still and moving images, and given the sensitivity of the film companies that we deal with towards piracy, we are having to be more strict regarding the taking of recording equipment into the auditoria. Members need to be aware that anyone seen or caught taking such equipment into the auditoria will not be allowed to attend the screening or event. Unfortunately, we do not have the facilities to be able to look after such equipment for you and I would ask, therefore, that Members leave audio recorders, still and moving image cameras at home.

You should also be aware that, at the request of the film companies, you may be subject to a bag search.

I often carry a camera with me, and this restriction would also seem to cover some mobile 'phones, PDAs and other, similar devices people may well have every reason to carry with them. Saying leave them at home is just not good enough, somebody may travel up to London to do various things during the day, for which it may well be perfectly reasonable, or even necessary, for them to carry a camera or other, now proscribed equipment, which has never been a problem in the past, if carried in a pocket or bag, and not used in the auditoria. Are they seriously suggesting that under these circumstances, the person should take the item home, which may well be an hour or two's journey away, and then come out again to see the film?

My membership expires shortly; since this will make it difficult for me to attend screenings, I will probably not renew, and will explain the reasons why, and ask them to pass this information on to the film companies.

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 12-23-2003, 08:01 PM:

This situation is getting increasingly ridiculous. It's been said before, I'm sure it's worth saying again - The majority of piracy is not happening at cinema's.. It's all happening way before we get our hands on our prints. It's the studio's that have the problem.

As for coded title prints, that's a joke that's just not funny anymore. I could maybe tolerate it if we recieved notification that 'your print of LOTR will be arriving as X'. It doesn't happen. It's very time wasting and annoying to check every obscure titled print that arrives, only to find that it really is an obscure art house flick for a cinema you book for, rather than LOTR etc.

I remove the FACT warning from EVERY print that comes into my cinema. I have to, we are CEA members, as are most of the cinemas in the UK.

Basically the CEA (Cinema Exhibitors Association) have a deal with Orange (mobile comms company) to run an Ad for Orange at the end of their members trailers. The contract is that this MUST be the last ad/trailer before the start of the feature. This includes attached trailers and (even if it is AFTER the BBFC certificate) the FACT anti-piracy snipe. So any attached trailers must be removed etc. Only exception so far has been Warners for Matrix 3, who included a scope Orange ad attached to their print for CEA members. Even then the FACT snipe was after the Ad, but I assume It was cleared by the CEA as we recieved confirmation that this was ok.

Posted by Dan Harris (Member # 1759) on 12-24-2003, 05:00 AM:

Andy,

Do you know if Orange freely supply 'scope versions of the trailers? Our technical office keep a supply, but I'm wondering if they would just be able to send us a batch of 'scope versions.

We were told to re-use the 'scope Orange supplied with Matrix 3 for LOTR 3, no matter that we were still playing Matrix [Confused]

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-24-2003, 09:01 AM:

quote:
I ran it a couple of weeks ago, it was part of the 'Pearl & Dean' (adverts). I think it's just an advert, like any other, and I very much doubt that you could just remove any advert because you didn't feel like showing it.

You can if it clashes with the feature certificate. When I worked for City Screen it was company policy to extract all the adverts from a given reel which had a higher certificate than the feature it was being shown before. On the P & D or Carlton chitty we would place an asterisk by the appropriate entries and write at the bottom 'Not shown - higher certificate than feature.' However I'd guess that, annoyingly, this FACT propaganda is probably U-cert and therefore this isn't an option.

As for the NFT newsletter, I suspect and hope that this was a covering of asses exercise rather than a signalling of any serious intent to search members as they enter an auditorium. Even allowing for the fact that (IMHO) its programming has gone more mainstream and downhill in the last decade or so (the rot started when I left [Wink]

), 90% of what they show would be of no interest whatsoever to any self-respecting pirate. After all, who would want to furtively video The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp in the MOMI cinema when you can buy it on DVD for £5.99?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-24-2003, 10:02 AM:

Leo wrote:

quote:

You can if it clashes with the feature certificate. ...
...On the P & D or Carlton chitty we would place an asterisk by the appropriate entries and write at the bottom 'Not shown - higher certificate than feature.

That's basically what I said:

quote:

I think the only circumstances where you can remove an advert is if the reel as supplied contains material not allowed for the age rating of the film. There used to be a warning notice from P+D to remove tobacco adverts for example, when these were still show in cinemas, if younger rated films were being shown.

As to the NFT thing, I have no intention of pirating any film, and if I did I would find a better way of doing it than pointing a camera at a cinema screen. Des anybody really do this? The couple of pirate copies I've seen were of rather good quality, and obviously not done this way. They were also proper pressed DVDs, which suggests a large scale operaton. These things are openly on sale at computer fairs, car boot sales etc., yet they seem to do nothing about this; do they really want to stop piracy, if so, why don't they do something about this?

I'm getting rather fed up with places which won't let you take various things in. Now if it was something large that would be understandable; if I turned up at the NFT carrying a roll of carpet, I would expect them to turn me away, but a small still camera in a coat pocket or bag, are they serious? I recently had to go to a certain large computer shop; they wouldn't let me in because I was carrying a bag of shopping from another shop. They told me to leave the bag in my car - I don't have one. The store security person declined to look after my bag for me whie I was in the store, so I took my custom elsewhere. Am I really expected to take each bag of shopping home before going to the next shop? Maybe we should be expected to remove all our clothing before entering a shop, in case we slip something into a pocket.

I was running a film once at a modern place, with the entrance to the projection box indoors, just outside the auditorium. Before the show there was a knock on the projection room door, and a young woman was standing there. She reached into her bag, produced a VHS tape, and asked if I would mind running off a copy of the film during the show for her friend, who wasn't able to come. Right, I thought, I'll just go and find a Cintel Mk.3 telecine from somewhere, and loop the film out through that before it reaches the take-up spool! [Roll Eyes]

She was actually being serious, she really thought it was technically possible, and here would be nothing wrong with doing it.

Any more 70mm shows cming up at York, I still haven't managed to get to one.

Posted by Howard Johnson (Member # 62) on 12-24-2003, 02:12 PM:

I made up "Peter Pan" yesterday and it contained a letter from the renter ordering me not to remove the FACT notice in front of the censor. I immediately binned the letter followed by the FACT notice!!

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 12-24-2003, 02:36 PM:

In Italy too since september all distibutors made their own anti-piracy tag in front of the film. Now they have standardized it with a "nice" one (better than the Fox advise: 45 seconds of law articles fixed-full screen......).

I know that this decision come from the fact that a movie has been pirated BEFORE it came to the theater.

These tags cannot do anything other than annoying the paying customers. At least the last tag is not so brutal like the other ones... [Smile]

Bye
A

Posted by Liam Utley (Member # 1931) on 12-24-2003, 05:12 PM:

So far we don't have anti-piracy tags, maybe its because generally get films after most other countries, but i'm guessing it will only be a matter of time.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 12-24-2003, 05:29 PM:

quote:
Des anybody really do this? The couple of pirate copies I've seen were of rather good quality, and obviously not done this way. They were also proper pressed DVDs, which suggests a large scale operaton. These things are openly on sale at computer fairs, car boot sales etc., yet they seem to do nothing about this; do they really want to stop piracy, if so, why don't they do something about this?

Agreed entirely: the real problem are organised gangs (which, AFAIK, are based mainly in the Far East) which do have Ranks and Spirits. How they get their hands on the film prints I don't know: I guess that the CAP code is there because Hollywood would dearly love to find out. Of course there are instances of people trying to video things in cinemas for subsequent small-scale distribution, but I can't see anyone trying it at an arthouse venue such as the NFT. As far as that notice is concerned I can think of two possible explanations: (i) that the management want to be seen to be taking the issue seriously, and (ii) because what they're really worried about is the possibility of people videoing special events such as Guardian lectures and introductions to screenings by well-known personalities. In any case I suspect the letter is a case of going through the motions: unless you turn up with a camcorder slung round your neck, I really can't see them searching you, somehow.

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 12-24-2003, 06:54 PM:

Howard, Snap! Both are in the bin! It's a strange situation, surely the distro's are aware, why cant they sort something out a la Matrix.

quote:
Do you know if Orange freely supply 'scope versions of the trailers?

Dan, I don't know. I'm sure they would, it's only a matter of who to contact, after all it's all in their benefit.

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 12-28-2003, 03:59 PM:

My 0.02UKP on this:

I agree with everything posted so far, in particular the observation that the people in
the cinema are there because they _haven't_ bought a pirate copy of the film.
There's an old saying about not preaching to the converted.

The FACT advert in the P&D advert reel is a bit cheesy, but it does actually qualify why
piracy is such a bad thing. To me that is a much stronger message than simply re-stating
the copyright law. The FACT/DHL advert ought to be at the end of the P&D reel, but
Electronic Arts seem to have "bagged" that end of the reel already with adverts for
PC & console games.

With reference to CEA member cinemas and the "golden minute" promotion (Orange and BVI):

My understanding is the advert most be immediately followed by the censor title of the feature.
+ If the FACT warning appears before the censor tag: snip, snip. (That includes Peter Pan!)
+ If the FACT warning appears after the censor tag, I consider it part of the film distributor's show
and leave it where it is.
The head of R1 of Matrix 3 got some heavy editing by me, to ensure we (as a cinema) were in
complete compliance of the golden minute promotion.

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 12-28-2003, 07:53 PM:

quote:
My understanding is the advert most be immediately followed by the censor title of the feature.
+ If the FACT warning appears before the censor tag: snip, snip. (That includes Peter Pan!)
+ If the FACT warning appears after the censor tag, I consider it part of the film distributor's show
and leave it where it is.

Alexander, That is definately my opinion too - Once the BBFC certificate runs, I regard that as the START of the feature. If that isn't then what is? After the all the distro logos? What about films like 'Moulin Rouge' when the Fox logo is part of the film? It's all a bit bizarre.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-31-2003, 11:41 AM:

The MPAA, FBI, Interpol, and others are making strides on prosecuting the large-scale piracy operations:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/85643.pdf

http://www.filmpiracy.com/antipiracy.htm

http://www.mpaa.org/anti-piracy/index.htm

http://www.usvo.com/products_services/usvo_videopiracy.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/fieldnews/may/2la050603.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/cyber/cysweep/cysweep1.htm

CAP Code DOES help track the source, IF it is from a release print.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 02-15-2004, 05:13 PM:

Have just shown the FACT advert for the past two films. They don't seem to realise that we are a second-run student film society and that most of our films are avaliable on DVD/Internet by the time we screen them.

By getting Pearl and Dean / Carlton to place the advert at the begining of the advert reel (and at the very begining of the cinema's show) many cinemas will fade up the sound/ ignite the lamp midway through the advert (The P&D/Carlton intro's can be started at almost any point and still look OK) reducing its impact.

I like the way that its sponcered by DHL, 'the people who feck up whenever you want to get a print moved'

Anybody take a perminant marker and add a 'Crap Code' so the advert is not pireted?

Posted by Alexander Smith (Member # 1769) on 02-16-2004, 07:23 PM:

Reference Mark Hajducki's comment about P&D:

Is it just our set of P&D reels where the P&D "splicer monkeys"[1] have cut the head too short,
so the first part of the soundtrack is missing?

[1] You pay peanuts, you get ...

Alex.

Posted by Dave Hall (Member # 1589) on 02-18-2004, 04:42 PM:

we are now asked to remove all FACT trailers from the heads of films, to comply with the Orange promotion.

to "compensate" for this, we have the first frame played as a slide across the circuit amongst the local pre-rolling stock adverts.

over-egging the pudding? I'd say so...

Posted by Matt Frankish (Member # 2131) on 02-19-2004, 09:44 AM:

We have the latest FACT trailer and it's utterly terrible. The worst line is where they say: "Piracy funds terrorism, which will destroy our society" in a terrible wingey voice. Do they really think a shakey camcorder recording of calendar Girls will directly purchase al-Quaeda weapons? I think not.

I think they're wrong, but I don't object to them advertisng if they want to. However the execution of the adverts is beyond amateurish and well into the truly awful.