Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Thrown LoTR on Christmas Eve

This is topic Thrown LoTR on Christmas Eve in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 12-24-2003, 09:05 PM:

I just need to tell my horror story with LoTR tonight.

I started the show at 4pm and everything was normal until after I started a 6:45 show of another film. I went downstairs to check on a few theatres that were letting out soon and I get 3 people come out of LoTR saying that it's burning.

I run upstairs and what to my eyes should see. The print (reels 7-10) completely thrown on the floor. No brainwrap or tailwrap.

It was wrapped around the motor, and flew under the platter.

It was a truly shocking sight.

I finally got through the tangled mess, cut the burnt parts out and made only 2 splices to get the rest on the take-up platter.

Total time, 1hr 15 mins. My boss walked up and her first words were, "Holy [bs]

"

I just left it on the floor as I wrapped it up on the platter since it threw anyway. Gonna be fun to see how it looks on screen tomorrow though...

I just wanted to share my Christmas Horror Story.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-25-2003, 12:33 AM:

Happened at one of my locations today also.

Same showtime.

Tail wrap wasn't taped down.

Brad -- I want one of your rim jobs. [Wink]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-25-2003, 01:35 AM:

You need this item to prevent that from happening ever again.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-25-2003, 01:50 AM:

Brad -- I want one of your rim jobs

Oh, and a platter ring as well.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-25-2003, 01:55 AM:

Dear Diary:

Joe doesn't know what a rim job is. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-25-2003, 02:10 AM:

Manny, please post here what a "rim job" is for those of us that don't know.

Thanks!

>>> Phil

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-25-2003, 02:14 AM:

It's the exact same device that Joe refers to in his link. Brad's new invention.

We should all be so fortunate as to get a rim job for Christmas!

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-25-2003, 02:40 AM:

OIC... I guess I was confused because at 1st you said Joe didn't know what it was.... but now you agree with him... I see.

>>> Phil

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-25-2003, 02:53 AM:

Lay off, Phil!

A census taker tried to test me once; I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-25-2003, 03:04 AM:

WHAAAaaa, whaaaa...

Merry Christmas, Manny! [beer]

>>> Phil

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 12-25-2003, 02:06 PM:

Hmmm. OK,howabout a two piece disk to slip under the print which the platter ring fastens to & holds together & have the ring designed to keep both halves from falling out when moving a print? Also a plastic circular cover which fits the ring & also the takeup ring to keep dust & other stuff off the print when it's stored or moved?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-25-2003, 02:10 PM:

Matthew, pay attention. The safety ring solves this problem. It's design while it looks simple, took over a year to get it so that it works properly with various platters. Not even Lego would improve on it.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-25-2003, 03:02 PM:

Sounds like it had a loose tail or a shifted print. Odds have it you have a A-3, Xetron, or a CFS platter.

If you don't have a ring that Brad has invented, you can make a temporary fix. Take about 8 or ten old previews and wrap them inside out with masking tape so the sticky side is out. Then take an old hunk of preview and wrap at least one convolution around the print but don't tape it in any way. Let it loose. The reason being you don't want your newly made preview pucks with inside-out masking tape sticking to the tail of the feature.

This involves some work, but it pays off until you can order one of Brad's inventions. I addressed this temporary fix in another thread, so I'll drop it here.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-25-2003, 03:47 PM:

Manny, I've been calling a rim job for a year.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-26-2003, 12:14 AM:

Another thing I do to help with the tails is to take some leader and cut it to just the right size to fit around the print and put a piece of velco to hold it together.

This will help keep the print circular. If you watch your feed platter you will see why your prints get lopsided. When the film sticks together for whatever reason the brain stops and then speeds up and the prints shifts some during acceleration. The wrap on the outside will not keep the print from shifting but it will keep it round.

Also, use the above device in conjuction with Stickapoos or Paul's trailer poos and it will be fine. They will fly off if the platter spins too fast.

Brad's device is a way better value than poos. Each one costing close to $20 and it takes about 6 or 7 to keep a print this big on the platter, if something went wrong.

Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 12-26-2003, 06:35 PM:

Richard you talking about LOTR thrown on Christmas day,we had a projector overheat in middle of the movie on the opening night(Wednesday 12am), imagine with about 400 people siting inside who been waiting for 2-3 hours to see the movie. luckily we had another projector running at the same time just with about 15 min of set, so we just had to move them to the working auditorium.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-26-2003, 09:39 PM:

How exactly did it overheat?

Did the power supply over heat and go out, Xenon bulb burnt out?

[ 12-27-2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Chris Hipp ]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-27-2003, 01:45 AM:

Brad, I think Mathew was brainstorming on how to modify the system so it could be used to move prints without clamps and serve as a dustcover overnight.

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 12-28-2003, 08:51 AM:

I am glad to see F.T. marketing another quality product.

Unfortunately, his idea is not new. A similar item for the Christie platters has been around for many years, but it has its faults. I forgot the manufacturer, but this was a three piece plastic deal that had to be glued together by the customer. The major flaw to this one was the inability to remove from the platter after the film has been threaded. If an awshit occurs, then the film has to be cut and respliced in order to remove this ring. I mentioned this product on F.T. a few times, but I dont think anyone took notice?

So hopefully Brad designed a one-piece unit that is "split" with a latch so that it can be removed if necessary?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 12-28-2003, 09:40 AM:

I think the requirement that you thread the correct film or at least discover your error in time to do a center ring drop is a very minimal one. Just how far along are you when you discover your "awshit" ? Well past trailers and easily accessible splices apparently. I see no reason to compromise the design to accomodate that level of Film Done Wrong.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 12-28-2003, 11:54 AM:

We do the same thing that Chris suggests, only instead of leader we just cut a strip of an old trailer and wrap it around the print, then tape it. When the print tails out, the "ring" of the trailer is left behind and easily slips over the print again with no need to re-tape if done correctly. This makes all the prints look neat on the platters and since the tape that labels the print is stuck on this piece of trailer, there's no "gunk" left behind on the tail of the print to cause problems. This beats spending $30 on one of those long velcro strips, and we make a new one for each print we build up.

As for the timing of the "awshits", sometimes it's not the operator's fault. We frequently run special screenings at our theater for rentals or Bollywood pictures and that's usually not communicated right away. I like to thread up as early as possible, so when I have Print X in House 6 threaded at 5:45pm, someone usually comes up at 6pm saying there's something else is arriving at 6:30 to play in there at 8. [Roll Eyes]

It seems like whenever a 3+ hour movie comes out, theaters seem to freak out and destroy them. I don't think there was any theater in the area showing a "clean" print of Titanic in it's 8th week. At least the last 3-4 reels were platter-scratched and covered in dirt indicating it was woud up off the floor. [Frown]

=TMP=

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-28-2003, 01:20 PM:

Thomas, there would be plenty of time to unthread that movie. It only takes a minute, maybe two. I've moved prints that have been unthreaded without problems. In fact I've moved prints that have played 15 minutes of film (or more) due to a power outtage that delayed everything. Not fun, but it can be done.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-28-2003, 02:02 PM:

There is also no need to cut the film. The film can be rolled back onto the center ring from the takeup platter and then unthreaded backwards through the system, then center dropped without making a cut.

Alternatively, provided the automation can handle a start cue, your first preview won't be through the brain yet. Just break the splice at the end of the leader that attaches to the first trailer and turn the projector motor on. You will want to stand there for a minute and help the leader through the rollers (purely to keep it off of the floor), but then you just re-do that one splice at the end of the leader and drop it back in.

Taking the reports on this thread as an example, if these theaters had the safety rings...

#1 Their customers would not have been sent away angry.
#2 The theater would not have had to issue refunds and passes.
#3 The print would not have gotten damaged.
#4 The theater complex could have purchased a safety ring for each auditorium and still saved money over what was lost in that one accident.

The math speaks for itself.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 12-29-2003, 05:24 AM:

why remove the rim-ring before fixing the aw-shit? you've got to fix the aw-shit before even thinking of threading another show. are we talking about moving a threaded print to another platter deck without unthreading it, because the deck isn't functioning? that really does sound like an aw-shit, no matter how you slice it.

carl

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-29-2003, 01:01 PM:

You know I never saw a changeover house throw a print [Big Grin]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-29-2003, 01:41 PM:

Any indication of "static cling" before the prints were thrown? Many times, some "cling" causes enough speed variation to throw the print off center. I agree, a retaining ring is very good insurance to prevent the damage reported here.

Gordon wrote:

quote:
You know I never saw a changeover house throw a print

But I have seen reels fall off the feed spindle. (Or thrown on the floor in disgust by the operator. [Wink]

)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-29-2003, 02:54 PM:

Gordon--you've never had a takeup belt break or had the film break on startup and pile up on the floor (maybe in a puddle of oil)?

And why is it that Century reel magazines are apparently designed so that they can be closed completely without locking the reel on the spindle? Not smart at all. Simplex didn't make that mistake.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-29-2003, 03:22 PM:

Never had a belt break had a shaft break once
As for a splice breaking on startup that is the same as if it was a platter
With slow start there is no takeup snatch
As for magazines
The DP70's in 35mm can be closed with the catch open as can most 35/70 ones in 35mm mode
The Ernamann 8b magazines the spindles had no catch the door when closed pushed a ball bearing race against the reel hub. The back part was spring loaded so even a bent reel would track well
The only complaunt if ya didn't close the door the reel would fall off
Also the shafts didn't go right through so you didn't have any bell

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 12-29-2003, 03:35 PM:

OK already,

Everyone is talking about me doing Fim Gone Wrong...

Here is a scnerio that happened to me once.

Working with the Christie package. In the middle of a show. For some ungodly reason, the payout head wanted to start causing problems. The three rollers were obviously turning at different speeds or something, resulting in a huge ever growing loop off the center roller. I tried to carefully lean over just to adjust the roller, and in doing so accidently bumped the fling-ring caussing it to pop off the flange. Only way to fix problem was to shut show for 30 seconds, which did annoy the audience.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-29-2003, 03:40 PM:

quote:
You know I never saw a changeover house throw a print

Damn, John and Scott beat me to the obvious ones. I have walked into a booth at shift change in a dark booth and not noticed the previous operator didn't lock the reel on the supply spindle. The sound of that huge amount of film with the projector ripping through what it had was about the worst shock of my life. Ever since then I find myself looking 2, 3 or 4 times at the spindles before I walk out of a changeover booth, even though I have personally never forgotten myself.

Will, I've seen that problem once in the past. Turned out to be the film having excessive curl and being in the simplest terms "stiff". With that in mind, there was a happy spot in the roll that would trigger this just right. The cause (and fix) was due to the two flangeless rollers in the brain. One was tight and one was loose. The fix was simply flipping them.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 12-29-2003, 03:44 PM:

What really amazes me about all these thrown prints is HTF will there be any good shows if all the prints are damaged? Let alone future good prints for "collectors"?

>>> Phil

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 12-30-2003, 02:45 PM:

Oh, I've thrown a print or two in x-over houses. Not often, but it has happened.

My Simplex 6000' magazines DO allow the pin to open (so I found out one night, when the takeup reel stopped but the film didn't). And, they are old 5/16" shafts and the pin springs don't always stayed closed. Duct tape to the rescue!

I worked in an old house years ago and the bracket for the upper magazine broke and over the whole affair went to the floor. A few takeup belt snaps, other such minor disasters.

One advantage though, after a problem like a film break in an x-over house, just pull the lower reel, stuff a new one in, re-thread, and hit the screen. Fix the break afterwards, minimum screaming from the audience.

I was visiting the booth in a 10-plex one night. A film break in the theatre ALL THE WAY ON THE OTHER SIDE, he had to untangle the mess, splice it, re-thread, and all that. He was efficient at the repair but it took so long. My last film break in my old place I think I was off the screen for maybe a minute and a half.

Never happens to an empty house, does it?