Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Cleaning The Old ORC Hot Mirrors.

This is topic Cleaning The Old ORC Hot Mirrors. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-25-2003, 03:16 PM:

When they get cloudy and grungy, normally the only way of making them right is by having them resurfaced. However, that costs alot of money.

I have two mirrors (one from an XH-16S lamp and one from a Cine-X35) lamphouse that were is such bad shape it would surprise me if I got any light out of the lamphouse at all.

Having absolutely nothing to lose, I soaked them in a mixture of Hydrogen Chloride, Ethylbenzyl Ammonium Chloride and warm water.
It sure brightened those puppies up! [Smile]

However, I know they are still going to be inefficient, but they will work.

In the past, I have tried several things such as a good quality silver polish, but it was so time consuming it was not worth the effort.

What is a Hydrogen Chloride and Ethylbenzyl Ammonium Chloride mixture? Simple...Good old fashioned toilet bowl cleaner. [Big Grin]

Does anyone have any better suggestion so I don't have to immerse my hands in, basically, acid? [Eek!]

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 12-25-2003, 03:39 PM:

quote:
Does anyone have any better suggestion so I don't have to immerse my hands in, basically, acid?

Gloves.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 12-25-2003, 03:43 PM:

Yeah, Michael...Mine had a hole in them and I didn't know it. [Big Grin]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-25-2003, 06:20 PM:

Ultra-flat has a reflector cleaner which etches into the surface to help restore older style non-dicrohic reflectors as used in the ORC hardware.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-25-2003, 06:57 PM:

I always used Mothers Polish...their cleaner first and then the actual polish itself. Generally ended up with very good results but it does rrequire alot of elbow grease.
Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-25-2003, 07:26 PM:

I have had excellent luck with ultra flat cleaner

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-25-2003, 09:53 PM:

I used to take ORC 6000 reflectors to a metal polishing shop in Houston and just let them do their thing. They always came back looking like new.

Posted by Bruk Mogos (Member # 2043) on 12-26-2003, 08:15 PM:

I just got some Ultra Clean Xenon and glass reflector cleaner from a co. in CA called UltraFlat. I will let you know how good is one I try it.I heard good things about this product.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 12-31-2003, 12:09 PM:

Using an ACID cleaner (HCl, Muriatic Acid, Naval Jelly, CLR, toilet bowl cleaner, etc.) will certainly remove any surface tarnish, but you are likely also removing the thin and fragile dichroic coatings, changing the spectral characteristics of the mirror (affecting color temperature and heat damage).

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-31-2003, 05:45 PM:

ORC products usually had hot reflectors so there is no concern about damaging a "gold" dichoric coating since there was none. We also had success with hazy non-pitted rodium / nickel plated reflectors by cleaning them with a motorized buffer wheel and jewelers rouge polish. This was a maintinance item we used to do with our rental ORC lamphouses due to humidity concerns in our region.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2003, 06:00 PM:

Slight topic redirection here...

I've got two reflectors from Strong Super Lume X lamphouses that after only 100-200 hours are badly flaking, whereas others are running along fine and dandy, some with many years worth of daily service. (One of these reflectors is in my lamphouses that I purchased new for my screening room.) I also came across the same problem with a Strong upgrade kit for an older style Christie lamphouse a few years back. All of these have under 300 hours worth of operation and are in private installations.

Any tips? I can't clean them because it makes it worse. I have not seen any "non-Super Lume X" reflectors from Strong have these problems.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 12-31-2003, 06:16 PM:

I had a 15" reflector for a highlight II start flaking after about 600 hours. We had some cooling issues in that house and I think that is what caused it.

I wasnt paying attention and tried to clean it and it all flaked off and the light was horrible. On the other hand, I have some that have been flaking for a couple years and isn't affecting the light enough to notice.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-31-2003, 06:21 PM:

Reflectors flaking is not that uncommon and can be caused by a couple of different things. One...lack of proper lamp cooling. You may also note that the deepest part of the reflector has also turned blueisn black. Two, They are defective reflectors. Strong, Christie, and Kmeisley have all experienced this same problem at least once or twice in the last 10 years. The dichro coating is actually a moleculuar coating thats just a couple of molecules thick and very delicate. Improper pre-cleaning of the reflector and improper operation of the equipment used to do the coating are two other causes. Unfortunately replacement of the reflector is the only actual fix. Ultraflat can do dicro coatings but they are VERY expensive for that process when only onesies and twosies are done.

My Super Lum-Ex is at least 15 years old being a made in Toledo Strong model and the mirror is still fine.

Mark

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 12-31-2003, 06:22 PM:

quote:
Any tips?

Yes. Call Strong and demand satisfaction (provided excessive heat didn't cause the issue to begin with - been there...)! 300 hours is hardly acceptable. In a full-time theatre that translates to approximately 6-8 weeks. Happy New Year, Y'awl.

I have not seen any real problems with S-Lumex mirrors at all...

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-31-2003, 06:42 PM:

I have had coating issues at one time or another with all manufacturers of lamphouses. In the USA most reflectors are sourced from two vendors, both of which have had delays or problems due to coating. The process is very delicate under clean room conditions. So if it is not a heat issue or a badly focused bulb too far rear in the reflector from the optimum F1 point of the reflector and if under warantee, ask for a replacement. Metal Dichroic relies greatly that the IR absorbed by the metal surface gets "wicked away" from the surface by forced air cooling as efficiently as possible; that is why we see so many air plenum box designs. Deep drawn metal reflectors are usually not recommended to be Dichoric coated due to heat elimination problems and this is where glass dichoric reflector, which allows the IR to completely pass through glass and be eliminated efficently are able to pass more light with less heat.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2003, 07:05 PM:

Matt, mine as well as the others are in private installations. That translates to extremely little operating hours vs. the months or years they mostly sit. To make matters worse, I purchased the two lamphouses that are in my screening room from Iwerks, as they were cleaning house and had some that had never been opened (indeed I was the one who broke the "staples" off of the shipping cartons). Phil Hill can verify they were brand new with the factory seals, as he was working for Iwerks at the time and he handled the sale.

So short of getting someone from Strong to physically visit and somehow determine that these were defective when they were shipped out of the factory, I don't have much hopes because technically the warranty has expired. That's the biggest problem I have found with private installations is that if ANYTHING is wrong with the equipment, the person buying it gets [sex]

because by the time the defect is found out, it's too late for the warranty repair.

That picture of a broken ignitor I posted on another thread a few days ago came out of one of those Super Lume Xs too, again brand new in the box. That doesn't bother me as it wasn't all THAT big of a hassle to fix it. The reflector issue leaves a bad taste in my mouth though.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2003, 07:27 PM:

Coated metal reflectors are the biggest head ache I have had never had any one except cinemecanicas not give me some grief at some point

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-31-2003, 07:51 PM:

Gordon, as I said in my post, all manufacturers using metal dichoics have taken a dump sometime, somewhere. Maybe in the frozen North your reflectors run cooler [Big Grin]

I had one problem with glass dichoics, which was a factory defect traceable to a bad run, which was promptly replaced...with glass most problems are caused by the client cleaning improperly.
The older non plenum box Highlite consoles also had some flaking issues which we solved by better ventilation and upgrading the wimpy muffin fan in the lamphouse optical bench table.....and shaft collars with spring washers to prevent drifting focus....another tangent [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-31-2003, 08:28 PM:

Brad,
For those that are not aware Strong puts several dots of heat sensitive paint on each reflector that leaves the factory. Without them visiting you they will definately know if it was exposed to too much heat. Warranty in this case might still be honered if the bad reflectors came from a problem batch that they are aware of. It certainly wouldn't hurt give them the batch number and ask them if you should ship them back for inspection.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-31-2003, 08:32 PM:

Mark,

Are the dots something I can self-diagnose? Of the two in my screening room, they both have the exact same ventilation, yet only one is flaking, so I'm pretty sure I got a defective one. I am not sure about ventilation on the other reflectors.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-31-2003, 10:11 PM:

On the issue of time in screening rooms and faults not showing up
One must also remember that some products age once first used on a time scale basis not just use basis
So warranty's are a double edged sword in that respect
Also most of the flaking ones I have come across have had the lamp even for a few seconds too far back in the reflector when some one had changed it
When I change a lamp i always crank it as far forward as possible then when lit move backwards
Also ORC/Perkin Elmer lamps have also had issues with many reflectors as they seem to radiate far more IR than any other brand per watt