Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: filmguard and failsafes

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-03-2004, 06:09 AM:

our tech mentioned he was told that some ua's in colorado had stopped using filmguard because it was tripping their failsafes and shutting down shows. i don't know what model or anything, but supposedly the f-g interfered with the infrared sensors.

can anyone confirm/expand upon this rumor. i don't know too much about optics but my feeling is that since f-g refracts light just like film, this is unlikely.

nevertheless, it was brought up as we've been having trouble with our fm-37. in addition to this , our shows have been shutting down right at the start, around where the leader ends and the company logo starts. 2, sometimes 3 presses of the start button have been necessary to keep the show on screen (the rest of the show runs fine).

various things have been done by the techs, and there were no problems on my last shift (new bottom roller on aw3r, newer leader), but since the filmguard issue came up, i'd like to hear if anyone has any thoughts on that.

carl

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-03-2004, 06:30 AM:

Carl -- check out your original thread for a tip. I hope it helps.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-03-2004, 01:37 PM:

The one thing to remember is that intermittent problems are extremely hard to track down. As such, a great number of techs will simply start blaming anything they can when something turns up that they cannot fix. I have used FilmGuard with CE failsafes for many years and I assure you it does NOT affect them in any way whatsoever except to keep them cleaner, which in turn provides more reliable operation from them.

There are a number of good tips on that linked topic and a ton of people here using CE failsafes. I would recommend you read through them carefully and try everything suggested.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-04-2004, 04:06 AM:

well, the failsafe has been cleaned many times. for a couple days we were defeating the motion detector as a temporary measure, which worked, but our tech told us not to do that.

the fm-37 is the updated version. i don't know how to check the sensitivity of the leds.

our films on all 3 screens (we rotate them frequently) now have new leaders on them, and all shows have started fine since friday, when the first new-leadered film rotated into the "problem" house. of course, that was the day the platter roller was changed and possibly the fm-37 itself was tweaked some, so it's hard to say what exactly helped.

i brought out one of the old leaders, put a trailer on it, and ran that 3 times to see what would happen. it started fine. if i get a chance i'll try running all the old leaders, since i don't know which ones were being used when the shutdowns occured.

one thing i've noticed which obliquely implicates filmguard is that the leaders and company logo would get patches of "mud" on them. this is no doubt because our union guy still gets his leader on the floor when threading, and the resulting dirt collects together in mucky patches. these were present on the test leader i ran, but perhaps not on the edges where they would interfere with the sensor leds.

maybe i'll get lucky and find an old leader with edge mud that will trip the failsafe, and that will confirm it. my fear is the filmguard itself will be blamed for this, not the poor handling.

as it is, our tech wants to discontinue f-g for "a month or so". i'm trying to convince him to let us at least run it on one print so we have some basis for comparison. hopefully our union guy will mend his ways.

the tech has spoken to another tech in new mexico who says he has an fm-37 with the same problems, and f-g was used there. i want to find out how they treat their leaders there.

does this scenario sound plausible? is there anything else i can suggest to our tech? i feel like this is largely a public relations problem as far as filmguard is concerned. hell, the company isn't even ordering it for us anymore and we're running out.

carl

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-04-2004, 05:04 AM:

Carl, not to "out" the stupidity of your tech, but really, the guy's missing some brain cells here. (The biggest hint was changing the platter roller. The lower magazine roller maybe, but the platter roller??? Even if the platter roller was wobbling, the lower magazine roller would've been the only roller in the entire chain to possibly have caused a seating problem with the failsafe. [Roll Eyes]

)

Let's look at the scenario.

First, FilmGuard has been on the market for 5 years and has been run on undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of passes through Component Engineering failsafes. This is the first "claim" that I have ever heard of potentially causing a problem. As such, the theory is pretty fishy...especially since I personally started using FilmGuard with FM35 failsafes somewhere around 1989/1990 and not one hint of problems ever turned up. Even your theory of the sloppy union operator putting the film on the floor doesn't hold a ton of water, because I know of MANY theaters who do that and it has never been an issue other than to degrade the presentation. If the leader is to blame, I would point the finger at it being "chewed" for lack of a better term.

Second, you say this problem only happens during startup where the leader is joined to the first trailer. You do FilmGuard your ENTIRE print, right? Just making sure that you don't run FilmGuard on the end of your leaders and then pull the film out of the cleaner. Again, this shows that the "constant" (in this case, the FilmGuard) is not to blame.

Third, you have stated this is only a problem in one auditorium, whereas your other projectors are running fine. Geez, if you FilmGuard all of your prints, how does the FilmGuard magically know which auditorium to mess with?

Your tech has either laziness issues or needs to go back to troubleshooting school. It isn't the FilmGuard. Try giving Component Engineering a call, because it sounds like the sensitivity is set too high on that failsafe.

By the way, can you upload a picture of the leader stock you are using, or at least tell us who your vendor is so we can try to figure out what it is? Also (specifically more important), do you have a stretch of black at the end of your threading leader? It has been widely documented that the older FM35/37 failsafes have had issues with B&W stocks, various black leader and silver retention prints. That coupled with a slightly over-sensitive sensor would make for a solid guess at the real cause of your problem. Again, check with Component Engineering regarding the adjustment. In the meantime, do a search on the forum for "FM35" and check out the various tips that people have offered in the past. Physically flipping that troublesome failsafe with another one in the complex will also tell you a lot when you find that the problem follows the failsafe.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-04-2004, 08:52 AM:

Check the booth lighting. We had a problem with motion-sensor-type failsafes in certain houses that would shut down if you turned the work light on (or was it off?). I think that ours was ultimately a fault in the PC board on the failsafe, which made it hyper-sensitive, but it's worth a look.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-04-2004, 11:49 AM:

Detectors that use infrared light will "see" any silver in the print. Infrared detectors are used on processing machines to automatically adjust the replenishment rate of the developer between leader and film -- processing machine leader is usually clear base, whereas unprocessed film has silver halide crystals in it.

Processed release prints may have silver in areas scanned by infrared sensors. Certainly a B&W silver image print would have silver. But some movies deliberately use a "silver retention" or "skip bleach" process to leave some silver in the image to enhance contrast and reduce color saturation. Or soundtrack developer could leave silver stains if it spashed or bled outside the analog soundtrack area.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 01-04-2004, 01:03 PM:

Tim's got an interesting point. I've taken one of those handheld fluorescent work lights near an FM35 & shut down a show by getting it too close. Still, I think this argument is getting spread too thinly, in order to infer blame where it can not be.

If the FM35 is shutting down the show at the same point each time, and if other prints run through that screen without difficulty, the problem HAS to be on the film. The most obvious way to trace the problem is to just look at the detector, wait for the motion light to go out, then note where on the film that happened. The motion detector is not a particularly fast-acting circuit, compared to the foil detectors. Filmguard and "Booth Floor Mud Blobs" [Confused]

would have to be pretty evenly applied to probably a foot of film to have any effect... even if this was possible. "Booth Floor Mud blobs" would go by too fast to be noticed (geez... I can't believe I'm hearing this). Seems the cleaner would get all that nasty floor gunk anyway, and to have that much crud on your floor to effect a cue detector must mean you're going through a couple of media rolls a day, eh?

Another thing... if you're noticing that much dirt on your leaders, why not clean the darned thing off so you don't have to blame contamination, and we don't all have to defend a product that works literally everywhere else in the world? If your detector is that darned picky, get a cloth and some naptha, clean off your leader & see if it works then. IF it does, you might even go so far as to (properly) apply a fresh coat of FG, just to eliminate this as an issue... either for you or for your company's lazy technician.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-04-2004, 01:12 PM:

Once you have the failsafe's "windows" cleaned and you have eliminated that problem the next thing to look at is film path alignment.

Adjusting the lower magazine/take-up rollers is a good place to start. If one roller in the path is sticky or misaligned it can cause a ripple effect back to the failsafe which will make the film jump or move out of alignment.

One time I had to track down a similar problem and I found that the "keeper" on the lower magazine roller was too close to the main roller. It only had a small amount of clearence. When a splice (especially a poorly made one) went through that roller it would get caught and "hang up" in the roller. That momentary jolt in the film was enough to trick the failsafe into shutting down the machine.

I suggest checking for those kinds of problems. While you are at it, make sure all your rollers are aligned perfectly. I have seen many occasions where operators get sloppy and bump rollers out of position. Over time those misalignments stack up and work against you.

Also, look at the rollers on the failsafe itself. They can become loose. If they aren't in the exact right position they can cause the failsafe to be cranky. Hey, if the film isn't going under the sensor the way it ought to how can the sensor do its job? While you are down there, check to see if the sensor assembly has become bent. The sensor assembly must be perfectly parallel to the black roller. If it's not the sensor can't do its job.

Furthermore, your sensor might be getting weak. They just do that sometimes, even if you have the updated design. The easiest way to tell if a sensor unit is weak is to swap it with another one that is not suspect. If the problem moves with the sensor, you know where the problem lies. Replace the weak sensor and the problem should clear up.

Finally, there are some types of film that just don't like the FM-xx failsafes. Like John said, black & white or "high silver" prints are sometimes less reliable in them. You can fight that by keeping your failsafe clean and well aligned. If your equipment is clean and properly aligned you should have no more than one or two prints a year that cause problems.

My FM-35 failsafe works perfectly almost all the time. Every once in a blue moon, it will act up on me. The first thing I do is clean it and check the film path. This will clear up 90% of my problems right there. This only takes a minute. The next thing I do is check the film at or near the point where the problem occurs. About half the time I find one of those distrubutor logos has been spliced in and it's on one of the kinds of film that doesn't like FM-xx. If that piece of film is taken out the rest of the movie runs perfectly. (Dont' forget to put that film back on when you send it back!)

Now, we're down to less than 5% of the problem films. What I do is literally sit on the floor (or on a stool), next to the running projector and keep my eyes glued on the failsafe. It won't be very long before the problem makes itself known, even if you have to watch the projector through several runs.

Maybe there's a piece of damaged film? Maybe there's a piece of tape, an old cue or some other junk stuck to the film in a way it shouldn't be? If so, remove the offending material or damaged film.

By this point, you should be down to that one lonely print that just doesn't want to cooperate with you. Again, watch the failsafe and see which of the two sensors don't want to cooperate with you. IF it's the "presence" sensor, disable it. Run on the "motion sensor" only. Remember this: The motion sensor ALSO senses presence in a manner of speaking... If there was no film present, there could be no film motion, could there? You'll be OK for short periods of time. Keep a closer watch on that projector to be extra safe. Just remember to turn any sensors you have disabled back on when you move the film out of that house.

My last point... How can you blame FilmGuard if only ONE of your three projectors is acting up? The logical conclusion is (if your three machines are substantially identical) that there's a problem with the one projector that's giving you trouble.

To be honest, FilmGuard actually IMPROVES the operation of my FM-35 failsafe!

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-04-2004, 05:28 PM:

agreed! in other instances f-g has definitely prevented old/dirty prints from tripping the fm-37.

quote:
Even if the platter roller was wobbling, the lower magazine roller would've been the only roller in the entire chain to possibly have caused a seating problem with the failsafe.

i think the theory was that if that roller siezed up for an instant, it would retard then jerk the film a bit.

quote:
You do FilmGuard your ENTIRE print, right?

of course.

quote:
By the way, can you upload a picture of the leader stock you are using, or at least tell us who your vendor is so we can try to figure out what it is? Also (specifically more important), do you have a stretch of black at the end of your threading leader? It has been widely documented that the older FM35/37 failsafes have had issues with B&W stocks, various black leader and silver retention prints. That coupled with a slightly over-sensitive sensor would make for a solid guess at the real cause of your problem.

i don't have the means to take a picture of it, but i'll try to find out where it came from. there is a stretch of b&w black leader after the countdown. that sounds like it might be the culprit. in the past, there have been minor instances of the film stopping right after startup which were helped by cleaning the failsafe. i always assumed that something about getting up to speed made it more sensitive, but the fact that there is that black stretch there could account for it.

would fullcoat mag be an option here, or will it foul up things even more? we can always switch to color stock.

quote:
Physically flipping that troublesome failsafe with another one in the complex will also tell you a lot when you find that the problem follows the failsafe.

i think we have another fm-37 coming in tomorrow. but since the problem has gone away for now, our troubleshooting options are limited.

quote:
Check the booth lighting. We had a problem with motion-sensor-type failsafes in certain houses that would shut down if you turned the work light on (or was it off?).

in general, i always have the light off when starting. i have left it on a couple of times to keep an extra eye on things lately when it's been going wrong, but it didn't make any difference.

quote:
Filmguard and "Booth Floor Mud Blobs" would have to be pretty evenly applied to probably a foot of film to have any effect... even if this was possible. "Booth Floor Mud blobs" would go by too fast to be noticed (geez... I can't believe I'm hearing this). Seems the cleaner would get all that nasty floor gunk anyway, and to have that much crud on your floor to effect a cue detector must mean you're going through a couple of media rolls a day, eh?

i guess i can rule that one out, then. the media do get quite dirty right at the beginning, sometimes to the point that i've seen little dust bunnies. but no, we don't change them out unusually often. in fact, there's pressure to use them as long as possible to save $.

quote:
While you are at it, make sure all your rollers are aligned perfectly. I have seen many occasions where operators get sloppy and bump rollers out of position.

the bottom roller underneath the fm-37 that sends the film back to the platter (is this called the lower magazine roller?) has always been a touchy adjustment. it very nearly scrapes the pedestal in passing. there may have been compromises made to give it clearance.

quote:
Furthermore, your sensor might be getting weak. They just do that sometimes, even if you have the updated design.

i do think this is part of the problem. a combination of bad stock on the leader, possible roller misalignment, and oversensitive failsafe.

quote:
Again, watch the failsafe and see which of the two sensors don't want to cooperate with you.

it's the motion detector.

i emailed these suggestions to the tech, noting the complete lack of correlation with filmguard. we'll see if this works.

i think component engineering brought the colorado and new mexico ua theaters to his attention. i wish someone here knew what was up with them and what they are doing that masquerades as a f-g problem.

thanks for all your suggestions,
carl

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-04-2004, 05:41 PM:

quote:
i think the theory was that if that roller siezed up for an instant, it would retard then jerk the film a bit.

True, but the odds that a roller would spin through an ENTIRE MOVIE, and ONLY seize up at the end of the leader time after time at that exact spot? Nope. That roller just cost your company an unnecessary expenditure.

quote:
there is a stretch of b&w black leader after the countdown

Bingo! There's your culprit. We need to find out what kind of leader you have. Can you mail me a snipet? A foot is plenty.

quote:
would fullcoat mag be an option here, or will it foul up things even more? we can always switch to color stock.

I'll send you a stretch to try if you like, as I haven't been using CE failsafes recently and that's when I started using fullcoat. From what I understand, the trick with the fullcoat is that one side will reflect properly and the other side won't with CE failsafes. So if after putting it on the machine shuts down, simply flip the leader. (Email me privately with your address and I'll ship you a sample.)

quote:
in fact, there's pressure to use them as long as possible to save $.

Tip...cut the rolls in half before you use them. Not only does that produce double the quantity in a box, but it also will use a noticeable percentage less of FilmGuard since you will only be saturating half the quantity. (It also prevents lazy booth staff from trying to run "two shows, then rewind".) Just remember long movies you may not be able to do this with. In that instance, instead of cutting them straight down the center, lay two rolls out on a table side by side and cut off center, so you produce 4 total rolls, 2 for short movies and 2 for long movies.

quote:
the bottom roller underneath the fm-37 that sends the film back to the platter (is this called the lower magazine roller?)

Yes, that is the lower magazine roller. Strong's failsafes are a bit sensitive to that as well. The film must come off of the failsafe roller squarely or you will not get proper operation. Maybe you could recommend to your tech to mount the roller on the wall underneath the port window to aleviate the odd angle.

quote:
i think component engineering brought the colorado and new mexico ua theaters to his attention. i wish someone here knew what was up with them and what they are doing that masquerades as a f-g problem.

It is easier to blame an unfamiliar product than to offer proper support. In reality, they are doing their customers a disservice by not providing the service they should be providing, and they are hurting themselves too, because FilmGuard will keep their failsafes running noticeably longer without hiccups than running without. If they had ever used FilmGuard in their factory, they would know this. Hence, blame the "unfamiliar product".

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-04-2004, 06:17 PM:

well, our tech wrote back and is adamant about stopping filmguard for a while. so for the time being it doesn't make sense to trade out those black stretches on our "show" leaders, but i can make up some "test" leaders. i actually have some fullcoat, but it may be different from yours, so i'll email you my address. i'll send a sample of our leader (maybe even a whole leader) to the film-tech contact address.

we do cut our media in half or even thirds if the film is less than 1 1/2 hours.

carl

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-04-2004, 06:59 PM:

For what it's worth, we have FM35s at the 6-plex and I've had no problems at all with using mag fullcoat as black leader (in 2 1/2 foot lengths). It doesn't seem to matter which side faces the lens or the screen. In our case, B&W and IB Tech prints run fine with those failsafes, too.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-04-2004, 08:46 PM:

Your tech should be replaced. Troubleshooting 101 says the only way to solve an intermittent problem is to take things out of the equation one by one, then assuming it is found that the problem continues put it back into the equation and try the next theory. You can't make multiple changes at once. As it stands, if any one of those things solves the problem, your tech has no idea which one it was, but will probably foolishly blame them all. I have zero respect for such incompetence.

Oh well there's really nothing you can do at this point short of just be the monkey and show up to thread. It's crap like this that is partially to blame for the dwindling presentations in the industry as a whole. Few people still bother to put forth any effort in their jobs, and it shows. Sorry to be in your shoes.

When I get your sample leader, I will take it to a theater with FM35 failsafes and run it through a few times. If it doesn't trip the sensor, I'll dunk the whole friggin' roll so that it is completely submerged into a bucket of FilmGuard and repeat the test, on video if need be.

I have pointed Don Olson from CE to this thread.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-04-2004, 10:06 PM:

I gues my big beaf with the FM35 failsafes is that if it is film it better damn well detect it being there not be well maybe on sunday with a full moon we like this particular stock
The Eprad Strong optical failsafe is by far a better failsafe

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-04-2004, 10:19 PM:

quote:
I gues my big beaf with the FM35 failsafes is that if it is film it better damn well detect it being there not be well maybe on sunday with a full moon we like this particular stock

Say what?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-04-2004, 10:25 PM:

exactly what it says
I get so many calls of false shutdowns because ti didn't like B&W or Mag or something else
The Eprad Strong one has bever given any grief

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 01-04-2004, 10:44 PM:

Gord, I used to have the exact same problems with FM35s (Especially the ones that (I swear!) ONLY would go bezerk on Steven Speilberg movies) [Eek!]

until the upgrade kits were installed and then I have NEVER had another problem with Speilberg titles, IB receiver, or B/W Stocks.

-Aaron

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2004, 11:54 AM:

I've had problems with FM-35s regardless of vintage and upgrades...customers have now had me switching them out for something else. The Kelmar prox cue detectors with the mechanical drop arms seem to be the most reliable in picking up cues and not false triggering. Then again, they made it super easy to be careless and miss the first roller and drag the entire print over the faisafe bat (scratching the bejesus out of it).

Steve

Posted by Don Olson (Member # 90) on 01-05-2004, 02:15 PM:

The FM-35 is an optical sensor. It relies on the projectionist for an occasional cleaning and that the film be able to reflect light. 99.9% of the time both sensors will read properly. There are however rare pieces of film that won't reflect enough light to make one of the sensors work. But...I have yet to see film that will fail both of the sensors.

If you are using the FM-35 with a TA-10 automation you can bypass the function that is failing on a particular print and rely on the other. The TA-10 has bypass switches installed. If you are using it with another brand of automation it is a simple task to parallel the motion and/or presence outputs with a bypass switch.

The motion sensor will work on film that is almost invisible to the presence sensor. This is a function of how they detect. Motion looks for slight changes in the amount of reflected light as it either passes through the sprocket hole or is reflected off the film between the holes. Presence is looking for a minimum level of reflected light. We set this level after "real world" tests with all types and conditions of film stock. The testing included waxes, lubricants, and also film stripped of both. The usual culprits for a presence failure are…very worn, scratched leaders and odd mylars used for interlock leaders that have a very opaque side facing the sensor.

The next FM-35 that leaves home will be named 13774. That says it all.

The only advantage I can see to a drop arm failsafe is that you can used it covered with projector oil and film dust. So, for this kind of use it is ideal.

Don Olson
Component Engineering

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-06-2004, 08:52 AM:

i've been running the old leaders and the results so far are inconclusive. actually, they are a mixed batch. some have color stock black leader, some b&w. some emulsion in. naturally i'm not 100% sure which ones came off the prints that were misbehaving [Mad]

.

the techs weren't ever able to get the motion detector to trip while they were testing it, but they weren't using these leaders.

one of the leaders i've been running would shut down consistently... when taking up on the bottom platter (?)... 2 nights ago, but not yesterday (??). the only differences were end-of-day vs. start-of-day and top feed vs. middle feed, but the feed platter is so far isolated from the problem i'd rather blame little fairies.

it's one of the leaders with b&w, emulsion in. however, the shutdown happens a foot or so before the b&w hits the failsafe. there are some sprocket indentations between the perfs here, but it's a long stretch of these (~6' maybe) that has mostly gone through already by the time it decides to shut down. before that there is some scrunching of the leader, which has just reached the bottom platter roller when the shutdown occurs.

we'll see how the equipment cooperates tomorrow. i need to try some more things to figure this out.

what exactly does the motion detector want to see? does it see light bouncing from the film alternating with no light as the perfs pass, or vice versa?

brad, i'll send those black samples tomorrow. i didn't want to cut up any leaders so i took some unused stock.

carl

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-06-2004, 03:18 PM:

You may have touched on another issue. You do know that if the platters aren't timed quite fast enough that there is a magic spot where when the motors are warm they will takeup fine (as in during testing), but when the motors are cold (such as first show in the morning or bottom platter in general which sees little use) that it could literally be nothing more than your takeup platter running out of speed.

Put something in the brain to hold the payout arm at full throttle and put a piece of tape on the edge of the platter. Now tell me how many revolutions per minute it does over the course of exactly 60 seconds.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-07-2004, 07:31 AM:

all 3 decks did about 28 rpm at full throttle at the start of the day. i let the bottom deck spin for 20-30 min then timed it again, and it did maybe 1/3 revolution more.

i ran the suspect leader a bunch more times and... nothing. no shutdowns.

carl

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-07-2004, 08:20 PM:

quote:
it's one of the leaders with b&w, emulsion in. however, the shutdown happens a foot or so before the b&w hits the failsafe. there are some sprocket indentations between the perfs here, but it's a long stretch of these (~6' maybe) that has mostly gone through already by the time it decides to shut down. before that there is some scrunching of the leader, which has just reached the bottom platter roller when the shutdown occurs.

Why not retire that fishy leader and use a different one in its place? See what happens.

Your failsafe doesn't care which platter deck you're using. If they're all timed exactly the same then it should either work or fail consistently depending on whether or not they're timed correctly.

BTW have you tried swapping the failsafe to see if the problem follows it (or stays with the original system)? That would tell you a whole lot right there!

quote:
i'd rather blame little fairies.

Oy!

Y'know...They really resent being called that. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-08-2004, 04:21 AM:

i meant no disrespect to fairies!

that leader has been retired, but i was running it just to troubleshoot. to figure out why it (and others) was causing shutdowns, it is necessary for the shutdown to happen.

i can't switch failsafes as we only have one fm-37 and 2 fm-35's. i'm thinking the '37 is just plain more sensitive than the '35's.

everything's working fine now with new leaders and all, but i was hoping to confirm my view that using filmguard had nothing to do with the problem. we've been told not to use it now, at least for the time being.

well, i'm not a tech, and it's my ass if i mess anything up, so i think i'm going to let it be for now and hope this blows over.

carl

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-08-2004, 11:34 AM:

Be sure and let us know what happens if/when you start using FilmGuard again.

Only, next time, you may want to retire the leaders when they start getting ratty.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-14-2004, 05:06 AM:

I received clips of Carl's leader samples.

#1 A-50 NT-Audio/Visual "blue" frameline countdown leader.

#2 Generic B-100 black frameline leader (this is the newer type which appears to be on black and white stock with slightly grey framelines and edges)

#3 Generic B-100 black frameline leader (I am almost positive this is NT-Audio/Visual leader, but like I said "almost", not for certain. This stuff has been around since forever and is printed on color stock with light yellow colored framelines.)

For what it's worth...

I have never seen an issue with #1 on CE failsafes.
I have not used #2 with CE failsafes, but looking at the leader I cannot see where it would be an issue.
I have used #3 with CE failsafes before and had issues. Not very frequently, but occasionally it would stop "seeing" the leader.

So Carl, how do you like that indestructable opaque leader I sent? [Big Grin]

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 01-15-2004, 03:12 AM:

brad, thanks for sending that. i was going to let you know i received it. i also dug up some fullcoat that i got on ebay a while back, different color. soon i'll be making up some more leaders, and i'll try it out.

interesting that the color stock b-100 is the less reliable. in any case, i spent several days running all the old leaders, but i couldn't get any of them to shut down after the first day. so it's all a mystery to me.

don olson did tip me off that the fm-35 has an ic on the board with the failsafe sensors which helps to square the signal picked up by the motion sensors. the fm-37 doesn't have this. so what works on the fm-35 might not work on the fm-37.

one thing i'm still wondering is if it's ever a problem for _too_ much light to bounce back between the perfs.

carl