This is topic Vic 5 difference in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 01-08-2004, 01:31 AM:
 
Hi all,
not having much to do with Cinemeccanica until recently I was curious as to the main differences between the Vic 5 and Vic 8 .
I was also curious as to how noisy the Viv 5's are , Most of my projection career has always been with very old machines from the 60's that run very quiet.

Regards
Phil
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-08-2004, 01:42 AM:
 
V5's are pretty quiet machines. Much quieter than Super Simplexes and other machines that Phil loves so much.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-08-2004, 01:42 AM:
 
The main difference is that the Vic 5 is belt-driven whereas the Vic 8 has direct transmission. There are 35mm only and 35/70 versions of the Vic 8, but the Vic 5 is a 35mm only machine.

The big advantage of the Vic 5's belt driven design is that is very easy to repair and maintain: all you need is common sense and a set of Allen keys. Spare parts are readily available and cheap, too (in the UK at least: I don't know what the situation is in Australia). The payback is in picture stability, hence nicknames such as 'Shakemeccanica' and 'The Rubber Band Machine'. They can deliver an acceptable to very good picture, but regular maintenance (e.g. belt changes) is essential.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-08-2004, 01:49 AM:
 
Metric allen keys.

The new curved gates produce a pretty steady image. If you're stuck with the older straight gate, frame the intermittent to the top of its travel and leave it there. Image steadiness shouldn't be a problem.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-08-2004, 09:05 AM:
 
Like all machines if not abused they are a very servicable machine and very reliable user freindly and quiet and very gentle on film
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-08-2004, 09:24 AM:
 
I'd add that the V8 is MUCH quieter than the V5. Running a print with FilmGuard on the V8 sometimes causes me to do a double-take and make sure there's still film running.

All our V5's are pretty quiet, except for one which sounds like the film is made of cardboard. You can even hear it in the auditorium plain as day. This one also has the most unsteady picture out of all of them in the complex. Any ideas? Belt change?

Agreed that they're one of the easier projectors to maintain, but it sucks that they don't have a simple knob to adjust shutter timing.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-08-2004, 09:31 AM:
 
When one changes the belts and set the red dots up there is no timing issues also the timing instructions are farely simple as well
If the machine is noisy probably the shutter gearbox is on its way out and need replaceing
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-08-2004, 10:00 AM:
 
I found that if the mechanism is a tad gungy, wipe all the shafts so that the timing marks are clearly visible before removing the secondary belt. You can then see to fit the new one without having to retime the shutter, as Gordon describes.

Agreed that shutter timing is a bit of a pain, though.

As for a noisy Vic 5, as well as a knackered shutter gearbox I'd check to see if the gate pressure is set too high, if there are any worn or hooked sprocket teeth, if the oil level is OK and if any bearings are on their way out. Changing the belts certainly can't do any harm, and they're so cheap that if you've exhausted everything else (or if the current belts have been on for more than 3 months or so), I'd do it on spec.
 

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Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 01-08-2004, 03:55 PM:
 
Thanks for the input.

The Vic 5's I am using (3 in total) are brand new only a few months old , all 3 are noisy and can be heard in the lobby , when compared to the Kalee 21 I last operated the Kalee would be the quietest machine I have ever used.
I must add the picture stability seems to be fine with the Vic 5.

Phil
 

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Posted by Darren Briggs (Member # 1071) on 01-08-2004, 04:24 PM:
 
Sounds like the gate tension is set to high if they are new and noisy. The two thumb screws on the front of the gate adjust it top and bottom. Should run well with them nearly all the way out.

Do they run quite with no film in them??????
if so it must be a film path issue, are the pad rollers turning? they shouldn't be. They should be set two film thickness's away from the sprockets.

On a Vic 8 you find that the lamphouse fans make more noise than the projector running.

Darren
 

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Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 01-08-2004, 04:37 PM:
 
The numbers of Vic 5's sold should speak for itself.... It's a very simple machine to do any repairs on and can quite easily become a 'New' machine by the simple replacement of all its componets. Timeing the shutter is very simple, remove two screws to remove the dowser cover and you can adjust the shutter itself. Providing the shutter has been set with the registration dots lined up then its a one off job.

As with all the Vic's they are a belt and braces technology machine. Very durable and easy to maintain. Not as good to look at as a Kinoton but not held back by too much electronics to go wrong.

As for noisy, if that's the case then it's time to check pad roller clearance on the intermittent sproket. Make sure it's two thickness of film and not riding hard against the film. An easy way to check is to make a loop in the normal overlap fashion and run it thru the projector. Rest a finger on the pad roller and if you can feel a definate knock as the join passes then you need to increase the clearence and visa versa.

Gate tension should be at its minimum to give a stabe picture PLUS 1/4 to 1/2 a turn. Check the lateral guie roller and side pushers for correct operation. Also check for wear on the runner plate itself and the pressure skates.

All of this assumes the machine is quiet when running with no film! If not then as Gordon says the shutter gear box may be on its way out, a comon problem with the earlier Vic 5's. I would always advise running a Vic 5 from an inverter to give smooth Run Ups and Run Downs which extends the life considerably.

Out of 9 Vic 5's I have one that is noisy.... nothing wrong with it it's just noisy...... it happens.
 

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Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 01-09-2004, 01:48 AM:
 
Thanks again guys. The machines are still quite noisy even with no film running through them , they seem to have a high pitch whine and then the chatter when film is running through them.

I am concerned about the shutter gearbox , after inspecting the 3 machines two of them have grease oozing out of I guess a breather on the top of the gearboxes!
I gather these gearboxes are seal and non repairable ?

Phil
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-09-2004, 06:37 AM:
 
The shutter box has a large screw at the top for refilling and repairs. In operation the grease flings away from the gear teeth so lubrication is not 100% but enough to keep it within specifications. The newer shutter gear teeth are metal versus nylon so the box is more noisy;they encase the box in a rubber cover. It is best to check lubrication at least twice a year. For timing you have the witness marks and the shutter and intermittent timing gears to match. If your intermittent or shutter box has been exchanged your witness marks may not match so you should note this prior to changing belts.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-09-2004, 08:25 AM:
 
What Richard said, also...

There are smooth aluminum "rollers" that buttress the drive belt against both the intermittent unit and the shutter box drive gears (total of 3, non-ball bearing). Note, these are actually "keepers"; they should not be set so close to the belt that they actually roll. They should be very, very close, but that's it; not rolling when the unit is running. I usually set it so they contact the belt just enough to roll when I crank the motor by hand, and then back them off about 1/4 the thickness of the belt (that is, the base or "valley" part of the belt, not the teeth). That way, they serve their purpose of keeping the belt from hopping off the gears during startup, but don't spin continuously.

Setting them in this manner will eliminate a good deal of noise. It's an easy adjustment. You loosen the hex head screw in the center, and then the whole roller can be moved in all directions.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 01-09-2004, 09:31 AM:
 
God, I hope it's not ANOTHER shutter gear box!! Before we reopened the theater, it had been sitting with no A/C running in the hot, humid Florida weather. After a few weeks of operation, the rusted shutter gear box went during a show.

I checked gate presure, that belt "roller" (one of our machines sounded like a buzzsaw and hesitated on startup -- that "roller" was the problem), sprocket teeth, and oil level. Next to do I guess would be to check the pad rollers, belts, and bearings. It's noiser than the others, but even noiser with film going through it.

Sounds like a shutter gear box is about to go on our V8, too. If the projector has been sitting for a while (like overnight), then it has a "WWWWWHhhhhhhrrrrrrrRRRRWWWWWWwwhhhhhrrrrr" and the shutter ghost on-screen is in sync with the rhythem of the whirring. This all goes away after a few minutes. This projector is also leaking oil profusely out of that stupid sight glass at the top, but we keep an eye on the levels. It amazes me, based on the number of different machines I have worked with that projector manufacurers can make a precision device for showing film but can't make a damn sight glass that doesn't leak!!!

As for the one with the travel ghost problem, that's the one that had its gear box changed.
Richard -- So are you basically saying if the marks were not lined up when the gear box was changed, that they shouldn't line up next time you change the belts? (rather, be in the same position they are?)

Thanks!
=TMP=
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-09-2004, 10:14 AM:
 
There is no shutter box in a V-8 but two shutter gears which are not too tolerate to abuse. The oil site may be leaking due to age of the seal, which should be changed every few years. In replacing intermittents or shutter boxes with another on a V-5 I have had occaisional witness marks not line up to time the projector properly ( other than shifting the shutter blades to fine tune the timing ) which then involves creating a new witness mark(s) on the unit. So when removing belts on existing machines ( providing you had a perfectly timed image on the screen prior to belt change ) check to see if the existing witness marks match; if not then make a reference mark prior to belt change.
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-09-2004, 10:48 AM:
 

quote:

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which then involves creating a new witness mark(s) on the unit. check to see if the existing witness marks match; if not then make a reference mark prior to belt change.

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No, no, no! I have to respectfully disagree with you, Richard. Doing this only confuses matters down the road. If, when the marks are lined up in their proper positions, the shutter is out of time, that means that whoever installed that gearbox did not set it up properly. The fix is not to place another mark on the gear, but to TIME THE SHUTTER accordingly, so the marks DO line up.

Thomas, the bearings are the next logical place to look. They can make a world of horrendous noise when they are worn. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get those machines pretty quiet. Also, if the motor has a belt idler, check that one.

And see that the belts aren't too tight. People have a tendency to install the projector belt too tight, to prevent it from skipping on start. If the keeper rollers are adjusted properly, however, that isn't necessary. Proper tension is when you can push the top left side of the installed belt no more than about 20mm towards the front of the projector. After a new belt becomes worn-in, though, you have to readjust the tension.

Troubleshooting tip: if it's hard to locate a bad bearing, sometimes you can find it by squirting a little oil in them when it's running. When you get to the bad one, you will hear a change in the sound. Again... sometimes. It beats changing them out one by one.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-09-2004, 11:06 AM:
 
The older Vic8's th (RK serries) had a steel on steel shutter drive that while noisy was far more robust
the seal on the sight glass fails as we all know ruber and petrolium lubricants don't mix
Often a noisy squeeling vic 5 is one of the idlers or one of the shaft ball bearings. Since you say sat for a long time in a hot humid enviroment that is a high probablity (also had many centurys get rust in bearings in that enviroment as well )
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-09-2004, 11:07 AM:
 
Vote for Gordon's new subtitle: "He's Robust!"


 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-09-2004, 12:07 PM:
 
I agree on the shutter timing issue which in ....almost all cases is the trick to do. Sometimes you have someone swapping out belts intermittents and boxes which would have a problem with the shutter.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-09-2004, 12:20 PM:
 
Ken writes:

quote:

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Out of 9 Vic 5's I have one that is noisy.... nothing wrong with it it's just noisy...... it happens.

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