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standard archival practice is to store elements wound base out,

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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!

That's the worst thing to do; it will lead to the film develping a curl! An archive search will bring up threads with more detail on this.

Danny
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 01-12-2004, 07:31 PM:
 
A quote from AMIA-L:

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SMPTE Recommended Practice (RP)-131-2001 which replaces the 1994 version,
which has recently been trial published in the SMPTE Journal, as follows:

4.3.2 Storage enclosures:

"The recommendations in this clause are taken from ANSI/PIMA IT9.2 and 4.1
of ANSI/PIMA IT9.11. Refer to those documents for additional information.
Motion-picture film is wound on reels or cores and stored in roll form.
Rolls should be wound emulsion in and title in, but not under extreme
tension. Rolls mounted on cores, particularly those longer than 500 ft,
should be stored flat (horizontal) unless the core itself is carried on a
horizontal spindle to prevent the lower part of the film from supporting the
load of the core. If such rolls are on spools which have flanges, a spindle
is not required since the flanges support the weight of the roll."

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Extended Storage Time - 10 Years or More

Color dyes are more prone to change than silver images when kept for extended periods of time. The following minimum guidelines are suggested for keeping films for 10 years or more:

• Adequately wash the film to remove residual chemicals such as hypo. See ANSI PH 4.8-1985 for recommended levels and a testing method for residual hypo.

• Some color films designed for processes other than ECN-2 and ECP-2D may require stabilization during processing (e.g., some reversal films using process VNF-1). Always follow recommended process specifications and formulas.

• All film should be as clean as possible, and should be cleaned professionally. If you use a liquid cleaner, provide adequate ventilation. Adhere to local municipal codes in using and disposing solvents.

• Keep film out of an atmosphere containing chemical fumes. See "Effects of Contaminants" above.

• Do not store processed film above the recommended 21°C (70°F), 20 to 50% RH for acetate or polyester.

• Wind films emulsion-in and store flat in untaped cans under the above conditions.

Additional information can be obtained from ISO 2803 or ANSI PH1 43-1985, "Practice for storage of processed safety photographic film."

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The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures by Henry Wilhelm, Carol Brower

Customers who bought this book also bought:

• Ounce of Preservation: A Guide to the Care of Papers and Photographs by Craig A. Tuttle

• A Preservation Guide: Saving the Past and Present for the Future by Barbara Sagraves

• Real World Color Management by Bruce Fraser

• Books from The Harry Potter Series.

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"The recommendations in this clause are taken from ANSI/PIMA IT9.2 and 4.1
of ANSI/PIMA IT9.11. Refer to those documents for additional information.
Motion-picture film is wound on reels or cores and stored in roll form.
Rolls should be wound emulsion in and title in, but not under extreme
tension.

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Well, when you encounter great 50's or 60's IB Tech features and trailers that have a curl and focus problems due to the previous owner storing them that way, you'll be telling the SMPTE to shove it, just as I am.

Danny
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2004, 01:43 AM:
 

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NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!

That's the worst thing to do; it will lead to the film develping a curl! An archive search will bring up threads with more detail on this

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Not if stored in reasonably constant temperature and humidity it won't, and if there is even the slightest bit of shrinkage the stress on the emulsion caused by 'stretching' it outwards will cause a lot more damage than any base curl will. Remember that, as a general rule, when film shrinks, it's the base which shrinks, as either nitric or acetic acid parts company from the solid. As the base shrinks relative to the gelatine and emulsion layers it applies stress to the latter.

There might be an argument for storing polyester elements emulsion out given that it doesn't shrink in the same way that nitrate or acetate does, but I don't know of any archive which does this as a matter of policy.

And I've certainly found that release prints (of all bases) on a platter tend to be much happier emulsion out; but they're doing a different job from elements which are being kept for long-term preservation. Assuming it's spent most of its life being stored at room temperature and humidity (or worse), any '50s or '60s acetate element is likely to be significantly shrunk and give problems in projection. That problem is likely to be worse if it's spent half a century wound emulsion out. I suppose that by then reversing it you might help to 'stretch' the base a little, in the same way as if you take an element that's spent several decades wound on a 2" core or tiny spool hub and then put it on a 3" core for a few weeks followed by a 4" one, you can relieve the base curl a bit, but at the risk of some emulsion cracking.

Steve: I'd hazard a guess that Amazon don't shift too many copies of Wilhelm & Brower and that the 'previous customers' here means one or two individuals who bought a load of books about photographic preservation followed by some shit lit for light relief. But maybe Hogwarts can teach you some spells to correct coupler dye fading though...
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-13-2004, 03:47 AM:
 
I think we're pretty much talking about acetate films here...

I have yet to see an example where storing the film emulsion in was superior to emulsion out, both in regular projecting as well as long term storage. I don't doubt Leo's findings, as he is a professional archivist, but I haven't seen those results here. If I screen a print that hasn't been ran in a year that was wound emulsion in, the focus drift from the head to tail of the reel is unbelieveable, the registration looks like it was printed at Deluxe and the film is badly warped. After a year or so in storage emulsion out, all of these issues go away (except sometimes the warping is permanent). This is the case even when running off of 6000 foot reels...razor sharp focus from end to end of the reel!

When films stored emulsion out are pulled and ran after sitting for a few years, they run fine and dandy for me, just like new. This isn't something I have seen on occasion, but is repeatedly and an absolute. Because of that, I cringe when I get an older title wound emulsion in, because it means I have to park my barstool by the projector and screw with the focus the whole movie!
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2004, 04:20 AM:
 
I think we're dealing with two issues: mechanical performance of the film base in projection and preservation of the emulsion layer in such a way that when the time comes, you can get the best possible dupe off it. When a film runs through a printer (of any description) it moves a lot more slowly than in projection, and when it runs through a telecine the motion is (usually) continuous. So it is not under the same mechanical stress as the high-speed intermittent motion imposed by a projector. Neither is it subject to very rapid heating and cooling.

If the main reason why you're keeping prints in storage is in order to be able to project them every now and again, that could be a reason for emulsion-out storage, especially if they've already been stored in that orientation for many years before you got them. But, as I understand it, the quid pro quo is a greater risk of emulsion damage. BTW, this isn't just some crazy idea I've come up with - as Jeffry points out, it's what the scientists who've researched this for SMPTE (and FIAF) have concluded.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-13-2004, 04:47 AM:
 
That's an interesting take on projection vs. duping. Maybe you have something there.

Anyway for clarification of what I have seen, an old print stored emulsion in always causes projection problems until it has been wound emulsion out for some time (usually a year or two), at which point it is in reasonable projection condition (focus and registration issues), but commonly still suffers from warpage.

An old print stored emulsion out has no problems whatsoever when projected and sees no warping issues.

Those are my consistent findings over the years. These findings don't seem to matter whether the film was stored at room temperature in a cardboard box for many years, or if it sat in a 90F warehouse in sealed cans. Of course there are others who will report exactly the opposite findings, so there's got to be something else going on that we are missing.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2004, 04:53 AM:
 
I'd guess that the bottom line is that the temperature and humidity at which an element has been stored over a long period of time is a much bigger factor than the winding orientation.

The next time I'm in London at the BFI library I'll try to find time to do an SMPTE Journal trawl to try and find out just why the recommended archival storage practice is base out...
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-13-2004, 07:46 AM:
 
I have found even for projection that emulision in still is better longterm storage. And we regularly show a lot of material stored away for long periods of time with now issues of focus drift (even with 7K lamps)
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-13-2004, 08:45 AM:
 
So, why hasn't the SMPTE done a study on polyester base film winding orientation? (Or have they done one already?)

It's really confusing to see that several people (all of whose opinions I respect highly) have polar opposite views on which winding orientation causes the least amount of focus drift.

Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in focus drift that can be directly attributed to winding orientation. Focus drift is pretty rare with 2kw and under lamps and modern lenses. Old, warped prints are a different story, of course.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 01-13-2004, 08:50 AM:
 

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So, why hasn't the SMPTE done a study on polyester base film winding orientation? (Or have they done one already?)

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John?

I should really join the SMPTE and subscribe to the journal but it's hellish expensive. Being based in the US I couldn't even claim any tax back on it (plus I've just coughed up my AMIA dues this month...).
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-13-2004, 09:54 AM:
 
Another example of base out storage being better is full coat mag tracks. They are almost impossible to get to lie flat on the head block if stored Oxide out and it is polyester support
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-13-2004, 09:55 AM:
 
Just unlike Brad...I've yet to have any issues with emulsion-in winding on storage or projection. In fact, at the Uptown in DC we switched to emulsion-in winding to stop (quite effectively) focus drift that was attributed to prolonged projection/storage emulsion out (films tend to play there for 2-3 months).

There has yet to be any issue when polyester films came there too so I'm remaining an emulsion-in person for all reel-to-reel projection and out for platter projection.

With platters, the diameters are much greater (and progressively so towards the outer reels) and emulsion-out wind presents the base, not the emulsion to potenitally hazardous spining decks or guide posts.

Steve
 

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Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 01-13-2004, 01:57 PM:
 
Steve,

Just to clarify... you feel that emulsion-in on the feed reel is best for both acetate and polyester?

That may be an interesting experiment to try, as I certainly have my share of focus drift problems.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-13-2004, 02:13 PM:
 
Also unlike Brad and Danny and everyone else down south, I've had much better experience with films stored emulsion in. In fact, I've run into similar focus problems as Steve has with emulsion out winding.

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It's really confusing to see that several people (all of whose opinions I respect highly) have polar opposite views on which winding orientation causes the least amount of focus drift.

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