Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: xetron xcn-35 console ignition

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Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-11-2004, 02:26 PM:

This is my first post, so forgive me if I am in the wrong forum. I have volunteered to help our local community owned theater (Panida.org) with a problem on one of the projectors. There is 90 VDC to the bulb (contactor pulls in), but no bulb ignition. I am told it is a good bulb and they did try another one. I am not sure if the problem lies in the igniter or the bulb. Does something external trigger the igniter to fire or is that done with an internal timer? Is anyone out there in film-tech land familiar with this system? It is a Xetron XCN-35 console with a S.Antonino HV igniter model AS-9550.

Thanks!
Jim

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-11-2004, 03:17 PM:

There should be a manual ignition pushbutton. Does it work?
If it works then the autostrike is at fault and it is ofetn a zener diode in serries with a relay and often a sensitivity pot to set the ignition threshold

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-11-2004, 03:22 PM:

Also, If there is still an adjustment pot in ther it is better to replace it with the correct Zener Diode than to leave the pot. Since your main AC voltage can fluctuate causing the no load voltage to go higher or lower a Zener is really the best thing to have in there. Many of the older Xetorn consoles and lamphouses still have the adjustment pots in them.
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 01-11-2004, 03:44 PM:

There is also a circuit breaker in the autostrike circuit on those units - if the igniter works manually, check to make sure the breaker is not open or damaged. 9 times out of ten, failure of the autostrike on these is either the sensitivity is too low or the breaker is open or damaged. The relay specified in these circuits will close at 75% of the rated DC voltage of the coil. The sensitivity control is really useful to limit the duration of the ignition pulse.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-11-2004, 03:48 PM:

One thing I have never understood is why xetron always reengineers other peoples products (look at the mods done to cineemcanicas, ernemanns, centurys, and prevost when the xetron name is stuck on them) when IREM has a very good autostrike circuit that fits inside the black case of the ignitor and it has proven to be very stable and reliable over time

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 01-11-2004, 04:00 PM:

Dunno, Gordon. It does seem like they enjoy making things more complicated than they have to be.

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-13-2004, 08:43 AM:

Neither the autostrike nor the manual will ignite the bulb. Should the manual or autostrike send a signal to the igniter?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-13-2004, 09:56 AM:

The schematic is on line here trace where the power is disapearring

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-14-2004, 09:30 PM:

Thanks, Gordon. I downloaded the schematic and understand the circuit now. It has to either be the igniter or the bulb. I will try the igniter in the other projector.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-15-2004, 03:43 AM:

Testing the igniter in a different projector (or the igniter from another projector) is never wrong, but before you do so, you might want to check if the igniter can be heard - in the Xetron console they make this weak coughing sound - and if you can see the sparks going through the bulb when you ignite manually and look through the viewing port on the front.
If all this doesn`t bring light into he matter (pun intended!), you might want to check the RA board in the power supply right behind the DC terminals. You can bypass it by connecting the outer and inner pair of wires going to it. Best if you read the manuals provided here for details.

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-15-2004, 08:11 AM:

Spark Gap possibly?

Rick

Posted by Chris Markiewicz (Member # 1415) on 01-15-2004, 12:24 PM:

Try checking the capacitor that goes from the anode (+) of the lamp to the cabinet.

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-17-2004, 12:21 PM:

Yesterday, I put the igniter from unit #2 into unit #1 and vise versa. Now they both work!! Unit #2 was intermittent before not igniting at all. I can't imagine a bulb being intermittent, so I am suspecting the igniter. Any ideas on where I can get another igniter?
Thanks

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-17-2004, 03:37 PM:

Well if they both work now it leads one to believe it was a connection issue
They are available from any theatre supply dealer

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-18-2004, 10:12 AM:

I had previously removed and replaced the original igniter with no success. All of the connections have already been re-worked. The ignition was intermittent in the time leading up to this. When testing the ignition, is it excessively harmful to the bulb to cycle the lamp power on and off? What is the least destructive timing (for example, 1 minute on, two minutes off)?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-18-2004, 05:17 PM:

You said they tried another bulb. Was that a new one? In my experience, the Xetron consoles are more problematic when it comes to igniting older bulbs than most other consoles. I had slightly worn lamps which were taken out of Xetron consoles because they wouldn`t light up, but worked without a problem in other consoles.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-18-2004, 05:31 PM:

Sounds like a spark gap issue to me. Had the same problem with the igniter in the Strong Super Lumex. Adjusted the spark gap, and problem went away. However, I do not know what spark gap width is actually supposed to be.

Michael, even if the bulb is bad, the igniter will still attempt to fire. This has (at least) been my experience with most lamphouses. But you are right about the Xetron being problematic....They can definately be a pain in the lower posterior.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-18-2004, 10:53 PM:

Irem ignitors are the world standard (there are more manufacturers useing them than any other source)
They have been in my experience rock stabel until xetron gets there hand on them and then with there control modifications become very problematic

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-19-2004, 02:11 AM:

I didn`t say it doesn`t attempt to ignite. I meant it doesn`t succeed in igniting the lamp, and in that the Xetron consoles seem to be more touchy than any other console.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-19-2004, 10:34 AM:

If it lights manualy with the pushbutton then the ignitor is fine just that flacky xetron autostrike circuit at fault

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 01-19-2004, 09:25 PM:

When it wouldn't ignite, it wouldn't work either manually or on auto, and I didn't hear any attempt to ignite. Now that I have swapped igniters, both work on auto. The bulbs do not have many hours on them.

I don't understand how the spark gap works. The igniter in question has an external spark gap incased in plastic. Is the spark gap adjustable on these? If so, how do I determine the correct gap?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-24-2004, 12:48 PM:

James, I think you have a spark gap issue. Close up the gap just a tad and it will probably work. Through the years, they do erode somewhat.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-24-2004, 01:54 PM:

be very carefull playing with sparkgaps as you could get yourself on a fatl end of a nasty shock
Note usually a spark gap would have to have been very large for it not to have a spark in it (which you would have heard) the gap length effects the frequency of the energy across the lamp gap

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-24-2004, 08:06 PM:

Here is another Xetron ignition problem: I just received a call that we have a console (I don`t know exactly what revision, I will have to go there and look) doesn`t try to ignite at all. No ignition automatically or manually. Apparently the voltage display on the console is also dead and the contactor doesn`t pull in either.

Now here is something puzzling: according to the projectionist, the console had those problems before when it had been turned off. That`s why they never turned the breakers off. When it was turned off by accident, it would take 5 minutes or so, then it would work again. Today they had a power outage for an hour. Now the lamphouse is completely dead like described above. They checked all breakers and the fuse on the control panel. All other projector functions (automation, motor, exciter etc.) work [Confused]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-24-2004, 09:21 PM:

That doesn't sound like an igintior issue
If the volt meter say no output then the igintor can't attempt to fire
Check the airflow as one of the blowers may not have started
I have always had an issue with the xetron method of turning off the internal blowers and then the airflow switches shutting the recticier down
another strike in my books against xetron I want the blowers to stay on after the lamp shuts down to control the cool down
Also there is a high probability that one of the phases of a circuit breaker has failed had that problem at foranna location when I visited it a while ago as the breaker had the wrong trip curve for its load a prblem with a lot of console vendors who use magnetic breakers in the wrong application

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-25-2004, 02:05 AM:

Yes, I also suspect it might be a blower or a stuck airflow switch. That is the only thing I could think of which might account for the waiting time. Or maybe it is a breaker which was on its way to fail and was regularly tripped by the inrush current before it now finally failed.
I will go and see in the morning.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-25-2004, 10:25 AM:

We have over 100 of the Xetron consoles, and generally they have been very reliable.

Regarding Michael's problem; If the volt meter is dead, ie: none of the LCD segments display, the small fuse on the PCB may have blown. That fuse only powers the meter, so even if it was blown the lamp would still light.

The vane switch for the blower sometimes gets clogged with dust/dirt. That switch is in series with the contactor coil, the door safety switch(s) and the automation. Gordon's suggestion of an open phase is likely, too. There is a power switch on the control panel for when the console is used without any automation; it should be left in the on position with automation, but sometimes the operator accidently shuts it off.

The power for the lamp control PCB was intended to have it's own circurt, so it would still work if the rectifier 3-phase went out. However many installers just connect it's 110vac to one of the rectifier 3-phases.

Xetron changed the wiring many (10?) years ago; they no longer allow just the airflow switch to shut off the rectifier, and the blowers do continue to run even when the lamp is shut off. Admittedly, that wasn't a good idea, but it's easy to rewire it, which we did to ours.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-26-2004, 04:20 AM:

The power supply is fine. I can switch on the lamp by pushing the contactor in with a screwdriver. Does the contactor coil in the IREM PS for the American market need 120VAC or 208?
All 3 phases come into the console and reach the PS. The safety switches are OK too. I checked continuity across the switches and followed the wiring to the PCB to make sure the correct voltage is there (why is there no diagram in the manual!?!). Also triplechecked all breakers and fuses, fuse holders, switches etc. The PCB fuse is actually for the blower, anyway it`s OK too and the blower runs.
Do you have a list of the wiring and the correct voltages that should be read at the plug-in connectors to the ignition board?
I want to be isolate the board as the problem, or when there is a misreading on one of the connections, be able to track it down to the cause of the problem. OK, I can compare the input readings to a working unit, but if I find a problem there I would like to identify it without following the wiring all the way through the console.
Gordon - the blower is on all the time. This is one of the XCN consoles with the digital display.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-26-2004, 08:36 AM:

The contactor is the same voltage - 208VAC. There are a few different revisions of the manual; I have sent a copy (with schematics) to Brad for posting. Note that on -some- IREM rectifiers, there is a fuse for the contactor coil.

Unless someone rewired the console, the 3AG fuse on the outside front of the panel only does the blower (on earlier 4K and higher consoles there are two blowers); the small two-pin fuse on the PCB itself ("F1") is only for the LCD meter.

Do you have another console to swap out the panel for testing?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-26-2004, 07:35 PM:

That is basically the same board except the one I have has a little battery on top (presumably for the lamp data). Do you have the connection diagram for the plugs?

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 01-26-2004, 09:03 PM:

I've never seen one with a battery. I would guess a battery would be for the hour meter [Confused]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-27-2004, 02:55 PM:

I installed a bunch of two piece xetron systems that all had batteries on the pcb and it was for the hour meter

Posted by James S. Mellen (Member # 2139) on 02-09-2004, 11:23 PM:

Hey, thanks guys for all of the help. I finally determined that the reason the xetron console was not igniting was the spark gap. On the igniter, the spark gap is external and adjustable. It looked pretty old and the lacquer on the locknuts had never been disturbed. I closed the gap slightly and it ignites every time reliably!

Posted by Bob Healey (Member # 1003) on 02-11-2004, 10:08 AM:

John Walsh wrote:

quote:
Xetron changed the wiring many (10?) years ago; they no longer allow just the airflow switch to shut off the rectifier, and the blowers do continue to run even when the lamp is shut off. Admittedly, that wasn't a good idea, but it's easy to rewire it, which we did to ours.

I use a pair of 2K Xetron lamps installed in '89. I'm not sure if we modified the wiring or not, but ours are set so that if there is power to the lamphouse, the blower is always on, regardless of the lamp's status. I don't think anyone was crazy enough to rewire anything in the lamp, so I don't think they still make them where the lamp power switch controls the blower.

On the lamp ignition side, we tend to get 2000+ hours before a lamp becomes difficult to strike. I've been told it doesn't need to be changed yet, and I am not confident that I could do it myself, so I am leaving it for now.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-15-2007, 09:16 PM:

It has been 1250 days since the last post.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-15-2007, 09:16 PM:

Okay, here is my problem today: Older revision XCN-35 console (early 80s vintage), with AS-9550 igniter, XeTron rear-mounted autostrike adj and button breaker.

Internal blower doesn't run, and the fuse labelled "Xenon" blows. Even with the blower disconnected, the "Xenon" fuse blows when you press the manual ignition button. (According to the operator, the autostrike hasn't been working for the past week or so.)

Contactor will energize when I defeat the airvane switch -- EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO MANUAL SWITCHES ON - I'm hoping this is the version where the blower switches the rectifier on and off, although the consoles on the other screens have the blowers running continuously.

Does anyone have a schematic of this older console they can email me, please? The online manual is for the '90s vintage console, with all the PC boards, and the schematic doesn't match this unit.

THANKS!

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 07-16-2007, 07:38 AM:

Hi, Tim.. I have some pdf's to send you; looking for an email address... are you still at "??reed at ???.net" (email obscured with ? marks.)

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-16-2007, 08:52 AM:

Thanks, John! Yes, I am.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-16-2007, 01:06 PM:

Tim; you have an unmodified original lamp where only the vane switch is attached to the rectifier.

Most were modified by Jim Ezell to allow the fan to run continuously. When we rebuild these here, we rewire using a Super Lumex drawing and we add one more relay to give the rectifier a "dry" contact. Louis

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-16-2007, 01:15 PM:

Very good, Louis. I got the .pdf's, John. Thanks all! [Smile]

Posted by Dan Reiter (Member # 1386) on 07-17-2007, 07:47 AM:

Tim,

Check for shorts and pinched wires in the cables. During my years at Xetron & BIG SKY, a common problem was one of the cables getting stuck in the door, and eventually having the insulation ground away and wires shorting. Check them all carefully. Also check the connections inside the blower. If a wire nut came off, and the wires are touching the blower body, it will act like yours is.

Dan

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-17-2007, 04:40 PM:

Thanks, Dan. I disconnected the blower first thing, but it still blew fuses. I'm going for shorted cables next. The schematic John sent is a big help in tracing them.

I appreciate the good help! [Smile]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-19-2007, 11:47 AM:

FOLLOW-UP (although, I think there is still a problem):

The igniter was shorted, and installing a new one prevented blowing any more fuses. I have found no shorted or pinched wires. However, I did find a probable root cause: I discovered the anode support spider was shorted to the reflector frame on one side. I figure the anode shorted to ground during operation, causing the igniter to fire continuously. This destroyed the igniter, which blew the fuse, stopping the blower, which shut off the contactor.

I placed a couple of cable ties around the spider leg at the point where the insulator was deteriorated, to hold it up off the reflector (which I've had success in doing before).

The bulb lit at low current and then dropped out after about a half-second. Could not get it to light again. No load voltage: about 80 volts. Diodes all checked good, and all phases were getting through the contactor. AC input to the console from the panel was 200 volts, nom.

Turning the handwheel up on the rectifier, however, allowed the bulb to be lit - but still only manually (Dave Ayers thought someone may have inadvertently turned it down when the unit originally failed, which made sense). Bulb running at 85A. After a few minutes of being off, however, I found I could not get the bulb to light again. I don't know if the spider is maybe still too close to the reflector (taking the ignition voltage away), but after a few attempts, it lit again.

Here's what's making me think there may be other problems, as well. If you have the autostrike switch in the "Auto" position and switch the rectifier on, the ammeter moves slightly in a negative direction, below zero. Maybe 5 amps worth on the meter. Likewise, if I check voltage on the panel meter and place the autostrike switch in the "Auto" position, the reading drops slightly. You can hear the autostrike relay clicking if you go around and move the sensitivity control up and down... but the igniter still does not fire (the c.b. button is IN). I think the c.b. is passing current, since it was occasionally tripping with the other igniter installed (relay racing with the "Xenon" fuse).

Since this rectifier endured a dead short for some time, does anyone have any clues as to what else could've been damaged? I have no problem with being able to make the autostrike work one way or the other, but those negative moves with it in-circuit are making me think sinister elements are afoot.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-19-2007, 03:32 PM:

Sounds like a burned contact at least in the relay.

Arc overs frequently occur on the igniter pick up pot. You can just replace it with a zener and adjustment won't be needed. Alternatively, insulate it from the chassis. Louis

[ 07-19-2007, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Louis Bornwasser ]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-19-2007, 07:59 PM:

Thanks, Louis. It just occurred to me that I should check the RA relay, as it's exhibiting a lot of the symptoms... I'll do that on the next trip.