Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DIRTY PROJECTOR OIL

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 01-17-2004, 03:11 PM:

I have a Simplex 35-1050 that has black deposits building up on the inside casings(visible through the side window).I'm sure it wasn't there a couple of months ago but we have had a new intermittent fitted and some other work done recently,some crap may have been dislodged then.
Can you flush the system out?If so,what do you use,how much do you use and how long do you use it for?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-17-2004, 03:33 PM:

When work is done one should always flush the system with oil and then refil with fresh and then change the oil after 50 hours then 100hrs

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-17-2004, 07:19 PM:

Changing your oil on a very regular basis, I reccomend at least monthly, in a Simplex is about the most important maintainance step you can perform. The Simplex has too little oil in it and basically no filter at all....just a strainer. More frequent oil changes are really necessary to maintain clean oil in one that runs daily. If your Simplex does not have a seal kit on it...shaft seal, and "O" rings on the framing shaft then it only holds on average 4 to 6 ounces of oil, and thats VERY little! Installing a seal kit on any Simplex that does not have one is the best thing you can do for it. Usually doing so allows you to double and sometimes nearly triple the oil capacity. This is one machine in which more oil is better, and in which frequent oil changes will extend its useful life alot. [thumbsup]

.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by John McConnel (Member # 2000) on 01-17-2004, 07:46 PM:

The black deposit is very likely metal particles produced by wearing of metal.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 01-17-2004, 07:54 PM:

Mark
I know the framing shaft has external O-rings on either side of the casings as I have replaced them a while ago due to leakage.I have been filling the oil to the level in the sight glass as recommended in the manual.Are you suggesting that I ignore the level in the sight glass and just double or triple the amount that it takes to get to the recommended level?
Also a service Tech said to me some time ago that you can flush the system by running the machine with Kerosene in it for a short time and then do 2-3 quick oil changes,what's your view on that?

Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 01-17-2004, 08:17 PM:

Ian,

I'm not familiar with Simplex projectors, except the little I have seen of them at Readings overs the other side of town.

Doesn't your manual stipulate the procedure for changing the oil and quantity of oil it holds.

Being an American make, I am sure someone on this site could provide those details should your need them.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-17-2004, 09:44 PM:

I really don't advocate using Kerosene at all in flushing out a machine. They are not desined to run on Kerosene [uhoh]

! Only when doing an initial clean up on a really grungy machine would I ever use Kerosene...or in my case a parts cleaning machine. I'm pretty much a stickler about it and I would rather disassemble a machine on site and clean it correctly. It only takes about 3 to 4 hours to tear down an X-L and clean it up properly, then re-assemble it with new gaskets....unkless its a hopeless neglected machine which in that case its really a shop job. Sometimes during tear down other problems are found in the process, plugged oil spirals on the sprocket shaft are common on a well used machine, and I almost always will replace the lower vert. shaft bearing irregardless while the machine is apart. This is the most often failed(and noisy)bearing in an X-L. I've also found many of them improperly installed by being overclamped.

Flushing any machine with Kerosene does not guarantee that it would clean out all the black deposit plus the Kerosene WILL mix with any gunk and metal particles that were not cleaned out of the sump beforehand. This will create a really nice fine cutting compound that will never completely leave the machine, even after many oil changes. We just pulled an X-L head out of a Drive Inn for servicing and it was literally black on the gear side....so bad that it required oven cleaner to remove it all. But this machine was pretty neglected. If your machine was just serviced and there's a fresh coating of black stuff all over everything that was not there before the servicing I would have someone double check the work that was done. Either something was not done properly(a gear pair meshed to tightly perhaps), or the work performed loosened up ALOT of sludge that was in the sump. A coating like that is HOPEFULLY not caused solely by metal particles being generated some place in the mechanism...if so then there is still a real problem going on in there. More likely this has been caused by phenolic gear particles from the gears running in together again. After any on site overhaul or major work oil changes need to be done after the second show you run, then the fourth show, then 25 hours, then 50 hours. Then every 250 hours thereafter. Using this method the gear side will almost always look like new and the machine will last a really long time. You will also see much less accumulation in the sump over time.

As for the actual levels please go by the old Simplex manual if you know for sure that your machine does not have a main shaft seal!! Otherwise if you overfill it the excess oil will run out past the main drive shaft and get all over the drive side of the sound reproducer and possibly all over the port glass.

If you have a late machine or know for sure that you have a main shaft seal on it then I reccomend removing the gear cover and filling the sump to just about the top of the oil pump. Depending on your down tilt this will result in two to three times the amount of oil that a machine without a seal would normally get. You don't want the static oil level to go as high as the door gasket, which hopefully is one of the red ones from Strong!! I once encountered a new manager at a twin theatre that had the oil level half way up the gear side door glass [Eek!]

! Interestingly there was barely a drop of oil on the floor....this particuluar machine was a reletavely new Millennium head. It was also good proof that Strong has done a good job at making X-L's not leak.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 01-18-2004, 04:19 AM:

Mark-this is way past my ability at the moment as all I have is the Simplex manual I downloaded from this site.I would need a full workshop manual(like for cars)before i would consider taking on that job and it would have to tell me the whole procedure.Is there such a manual?I think at the moment I will drain the oil and clean as much as I can inside the casings and then do some very frequent oil changes.
I do not know whether it has the mainshaft seal I will try and find out.My machine is a Simplex 35-1050 not an X-L,can I install mainshaft seals if I don't have them?
This machine is a bad oil leaker(it does not have the red Strong door gasket)I reckon it still has the original black one.Since purchasing this Cinema 1 year ago(I mainly do Projection shifts and my wife runs the Candy/Bar-Ticket Box and everything else)I have been slowly working my way through all the equiptment this one is next on the list,and there's been plenty of bugs.
At least I won't fill the bugger with Kerosene.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-18-2004, 04:32 AM:

Just out of curiosity how often should one change the oil in a Century SA?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2004, 11:22 AM:

If you're using LaVezzi oil about the same interval as the X-L....250 hours. I'm assumming here that your intermittent is in good shape and not leaking it all out before the 250 hours comes around. Many leak it all out pretty quickly so they get(hopefully) re-oiled more often. The use of LaVezzi oil will add a year or two to the life of an SA movement. BTW: LaVezzi rates the SA movement life span at 5 years running 5 shows a day with theor oil in it.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-18-2004, 03:20 PM:

Five years huh? In the six years I've been here we've had one intermittent go, and that was because we ran it out of oil (very unlike us and very embarrasing, that won't happen again). All our Century's still give rock steady pictures.

Thanks for the advice on changing the oil, I'll make sure we are doing that on a regular basis.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2004, 03:53 PM:

Very recently at one location in the Utah Red Rock area the manager of a 3 screen theatre had been working there for 10 years. He sort of knew wher the oil went but he didn't seem to want to take the time to see to it that they were kept topped off. As a result two of the three movements at that theatre went dry and required total rebuilds. This cost the owner a ton of money and personally if that manager were my employee he'd be unemployed.

I would certainly looooveeee to live where he does!
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-18-2004, 04:45 PM:

[Eek!]

Ouch. We have six century's. When we got the replacement intermittent for the one we ran dry we got installed just fine and made sure to top it off with oil. Next day it promptly froze up, still full of oil. Not sure what was going on there but we got another one (at no charge this time) and its been running fine since.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-18-2004, 05:58 PM:

Dustin, the most critical thing about a rebuilt movement is, "Will it run a week or so without freezing up?" I have seen this happen in about 6 situations since 1982. Usually, it was the starwheel bushing.

Maybe some will disagree with me, but if the starwheel is changed, the bushing should also be changed with it. Same holds true with the cam bushing.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-18-2004, 10:51 PM:

When we ebuild a movement it must run in in our shop for 48 hours of continous running with a maximum of 10degrees c rise in the bearings
As for oil changes
when it is new or rebuilt
change at
50 hours
100 hours
250 hours
500 hours
1000 hours
yearly after that
that was based on simplex's own guidlines
as for Lavezzi oil it is crap
Any machine that leaves our shop or is in a theatre that we service that uses that crap we will not touch
I have bottles of it that over the years (even twice in the same year) are completely different weights

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2004, 08:44 AM:

Yea,
Be sure to follow Gords guide lines so he gets to rebuild your movement again within a couple of years [thumbsdown]

!! After 1000 hours regular projector oil in an SA or X-L has broken down so far that its almost not oil any longer...its also going to be full of metal and other particles that cannot be removed by the simple strainer in a Simplex [Eek!]

.

As for LaVezzi oil, I've never had the experience he's speaking of. Must be the Mars like temperatures making it thicker up there north of the border....
Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-19-2004, 10:33 AM:

Never had a rebuilt movement come back and that was also the rateing of many manufacturers.
As for Lavezzi oil I have several cans that were partially empty sitting around and they all have different weights in them and several other engineers I have worked with have compained about the same issue

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-19-2004, 11:32 AM:

So, has anyone asked Lavezzi about this? It would seem good to do so and put the speculation/rumor to rest, or confirm it.

--jhawk

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2004, 07:03 PM:

Never had to ask LaVezzi about it as I never had that problem. IMHO Gord should have complained to them instead of bellyaching about it here. Its best to complain to either Norm or directly to Al LaVezzi himself. I would think that Gord would at least want his $$ back anyway. Its expensive stuff to leave laying around [Eek!]

.

Also what the manufacturers had rated things at in the "old" manuals really does not pertain any longer to new parts. Many of those ratings were for parts they made in their own plants. The parts that are made today with the exception of sprockets are very different, made from different materials and in my experience are not as well made and don't last nearly as long as the parts that were made by the manufacturers themselves in the "old days". Old parts were much harder and believe me I've tested and compared quite a few old vs. new parts with a hardness tester. So if you prefer to have metal particles mixing with your oil go ahead and do oil changes at 1000 hrs! Hey, anyway, its fine.... many of us stand to make alot of money off those repairs anyway. Changing oil every 250 hrs, say at lamp rotation for those that do that can only help things, and believe me it does.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-19-2004, 08:28 PM:

What about soundhead oil? For those who use SH-1000, RCA-1040 or -9030/9050, or similar soundheads, how often do you change it? Assume the use of either Simplex soundhead oil or 30-weight non-detergent motor oil.

With Simplexes and Centurys, I've been pretty religious about changing oil every six months or so, but after reading Mark's comments, I get the impression that I should be doing it more often, particularly in platter houses where each machine gets twice the running time. I've never seen an intermittent fail and I know of a couple of Century Cs that have movements which haven't been rebuilt in twenty years and still run rock steady.

What is the difference between "Genuine Simplex Oil" and "Genuine Century Oil," anyway? (Or is there one?) I've never seen LaVezzi oil.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 01-19-2004, 08:32 PM:

Who rotates their lamps at 250 hours?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2004, 08:43 PM:

Scott, the SH1000 gearbox, and RCA's for that matter are another matter thats for sure. There is so little oil in those that its amazing they last as long as they do. Almost all of them I've ever rebuilt are pitch black inside from all the bronze partlcles. The drive pinion in them can also get worn to the point that the driving faces of its teeth have little what amount to little teeth worn into them...these will go through new gears like no tommrrow. Replacing the upper bronze , drive pinion and all the bearings at the same time is the best bet when rebulding one.

I would certainly change its oil at least every 250 hours...its only a few onces of oil in there and its going to get really dirty really fast..... assumming your gearbox is tight and does not leak. I reccomend 40 weight non detergent but may soon experiment with 30 weight synthetic compressor oil in one reproducer at a twin near our shop and 90 weight synthetic in the other. The synthetic would certainly hold up better in what would be considered an extreme pressure condition...IE: the contact between the pinion and bronze gear teeth.

As for projector oil hopefully if you get your oil from the units manufacturer they are still sending out what amounts to something close to what the original stuff was years ago. I can affirm that Simplex oil is still pretty close to what it was years ago. I reccomend LaVezzi in Centurys and DP-70's but its ultimately up to the customer to buy it. Some do and some don't.

I'm not surprised that your 20 y.o. Centurys are still running well. I have a 20 plus y.o. movement, with 1/4" star shaft no less, in one of mine thats still running very, very nice.

Mark