Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Framing handle "set," but still out of frame

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-24-2004, 11:58 AM:

Simplex 1060. I will always level the framing handle (and set the intermittent, in case you think I forgot about that), but some of our projectors will not thread perfectly in frame like this. I will have to rotate the framing handle a few degreesn (some times as much as 20 or 30 degrees) in order to get the picture to be in frame. Isn't the word FRAME supposed to be perfectly horizontal when you thread? What would cause this to happen?

My theater also has Century projectors. I think the model is SA. Is the word FRAME supposed to be horizontal on these framing knobs as well? (This is my first time working with Centurys, so I don't know too much about them.)

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 02-24-2004, 12:09 PM:

What you need to do is frame it on screen then PUSH in on the handle and turn it until the FRAME is level, make sure that you have enough room to frame the picture both ways from the point that it is SET.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 02-24-2004, 12:54 PM:

In theory yes, the word "frame" should be horizontal. Newer equipment allows the knobs to be reset. However, older machines (like my Super Simplexs that are 16 years older than I am) don't have that centering feature. So my #1 has the word "frame" where it's supposed to be but my #2 says "frame" at about a 10 o'clock - 4 o'clock angle. You get used to it I guess.

My #2's shutter knob is upside down, so mote it be.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 02-24-2004, 01:03 PM:

The word FRAME may not always be perfectly horizontal, even after pushing it in and turning it. I've seen where a projector did have FRAME horizontal, but after the intermittent was changed, it was at a slight angle. The person installing the intermittent must check it. This applies to both Simplexes and Centurys.

I made this stick-on label because some Simplex framing knobs did not line up. It was meant for use where the framing knob must be adjusted when going from flat to scope (adjustable top masking.)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-24-2004, 01:10 PM:

It also depends on how the aperture plates are cut. If the plates are slightly off, the film will need to be framed to compensate. Same for houses which use top masking for scope; the picture will need to be reframed after the masking adjustment.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 2038) on 02-24-2004, 01:29 PM:

Framing flat-to-scope and back isn't too far off on my machines, my problem is side-to-side. Not bad, just a half turn on the front knob under the lamps. The machines have settled a tad over the years and I'm used to adjusting them when we change aspect.

We used to actually have to re-level the #2 machine when we changed as the scope image was slightly crooked. A quicker fix was to re-aim the scope lens in its collar, "twisting" the image back to square. Keep it simple.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 02-24-2004, 09:34 PM:

As Scott mentions a lot depends on how the apeture is set up. None of my machines framing knobs are perfectly horizontal. They are 1060's

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-24-2004, 10:07 PM:

How hard is it on those machines to set them up so that flat and scope are centred on-screen without it being necessary to reframe? Am I to believe that there are actually situations where this is normal and acceptable? I would have deemed this to be an instance of "film done wrong." No? [Confused]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-24-2004, 10:13 PM:

Like mosts machines, if you've only got a single lens holder, there's not much you can do to shim the lens. Of course, that's what adjustable tables are for. Anybody who uses the framing mechanism for centering each format should be shot in the head.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 02-24-2004, 10:42 PM:

I had assumed turrets.

Adjustable table? Is that a joke? [Confused]

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 02-24-2004, 11:15 PM:

Manny, if these ********* would do away with the movable top masking only and if the aperature was cut properly, the problem would be solved provided, of course, the popcorn salesperson button puncher could properly thread the projector.

However, that would be asking for the impossible. [uhoh]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 02-24-2004, 11:43 PM:

quote:
Anybody who uses the framing mechanism for centering each format should be shot in the head.

Holy Smokes, Daryl! You sure are getting rambunctious for a "thick skinned Canadian!" [Razz]

From that statement, I would have thought you lived in Los Angeles! [Eek!]

>>> Phil

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-24-2004, 11:57 PM:

Joke? What's so funny?

If you don't have a common optical centre line between all formats and can't shim the lenses, you'd better be investing in an adjustable lamphouse table. There's no excuse for projecting off axis and affecting the lighting of the picture.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-25-2004, 04:57 AM:

Agreed with Daryl, but I've never seen a theatre with top-only masking that didn't require a framing adjustment with every format change. Usually one quickly learns exactly how much adjustment is necessary and can then make the adjustment before the picture even hits the screen. Top masking does suck.

Brad claims that artists' tape can be carefully applied to the lens before it goes in the lens collar to tilt it enough to make framing adjustments unnecessary. I haven't had the chance to try this, but it sounds reasonable.

At the Williamsburg Theatre (see picture gallery), we had to do a framing adjustment to go from 1.85 to scope and a tilt adjustment to go from either format to 1.33. Fun! They've since reworked the masking system for side masking only. [thumbsup]

BTW, the current-model Ballantyne bases don't have an easy tilt adjustment. The only pedestals that have this seem to be the Simplex (LL-1, LL-2) and Century models, neither of which (as far as I know) is in current production. [Frown]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-25-2004, 07:56 PM:

There's got to be at least 75 screens that I've personally run with top masking that don't require any framing adjustments between formats. All of theses screens have their lenses shimmed (or otherwise adjusted) in turrets.

Maybe I'm more open to adjustable tables after running changeovers with single lens holders for more than half my life (so far). [Smile]

Heck, I ran one screen with a car jack adjustable console for a few weeks a few years ago. It worked a LOT better than off centre framing.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-26-2004, 03:09 PM:

I successfully centered all the framing knobs on the Simplexes yseterday. Is there anything I can do to center the knobs on the Centurys? BTW, we have top masking in our smaller houses, but all the projectors have turrets. There is no need to adjust the framing after a format change. I have never had do do that at any theater I've worked at. Each lens has always been centered correctly.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-03-2008, 08:32 PM:

It has been 1467 days since the last post.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-03-2008, 08:32 PM:

"Bump"

What is the corect position of the intermiitent assembly to be centered with the framing knob at horizontal? I thought that I read somewhere either here or some other literature the index mark on the outer bearing support should be near the 12 o'clock position with the framing knob horizontal.? Running 1060's.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-03-2008, 08:46 PM:

..what I do with all "XL" based Simplexes - have the INT collar line close to vertical - that way the assembly get's the best oiling from the funnel delivery in the transmission case ...

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-03-2008, 09:03 PM:

Ah maybe that's where I got that from. I just wanted to make sure I have the intermittent set correctly before I start cutting new plates.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-03-2008, 10:59 PM:

[Confused]

um, before you get into that project, do the 35PA (RP-40) loop test first to see if machine is level and center before you begin to get crazy with the files on new aperture plates.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-04-2008, 12:12 AM:

Yep already done. I actually had to do a complete re-alignment of the gate on these. After I got things back to factory specs using the 3.112 gauge to align the studio guide and the 77 gauge to align the lat guides and intermittent sproket the film had shifted enough to expose the DTS time code and adjusting the lens gave too much bleed over on the right side masking, so... time for new plates. [Frown]

I was all set to cut new plates when I noticed that one of the 2 machines had the index mark almost at 9 o'clock position with framing knob set at horizontal. This doesn't leave much rotation to adjust for the ocassionally rare mis-thread. So anyway, something clicked in the back of my memory that the index mark is typically set to near 12 o'clock with framing knob at horizontal (which the other machine is).

All this also made sense of why ocassionally over the 7 years we've run this theatre, a projectionist would call and tell me that they had to stop the film to correct mis-threading rather than being able to correct it with the framing knob.

I also replaced the 2 weak springs that lock the turret in position with one single spring strong enough to "bottom out" the pin every time so the lens lands in the same vertical position when rotated. [Big Grin]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 03-04-2008, 06:20 AM:

Jeremy,

On some machines it is possible to press the framing knob toward the machine and disengage the gear inside. This allows the operator to set the position of the knob without changing the setting of the framing mechanism. In machines like these an operator may change the position of the word "FRAME" to cover up evidence of a mis-frame. I have used the "pin hole" aperture plate to locate the center of the aperture before making other adjustments.

The pin hole plate is also very useful when adjusting the focus of the lamp without the projection lens in place. An image of the reflector can be seen on the port glass or a paper over the window.

KEN