Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: super simplex locking up

This is topic super simplex locking up in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005910

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 08:43 PM:

I've got a super simplex that I changed the intermittent sprocket today and since then the machine will only run for about 25 minutes before stopping dead. After waiting for about 3 minute no more than 5 it will work fine again. No new noises since I change the sprocket and it actually runs quieter now. I wish now I would have not bothers changing it as I dont know what to do. Anyone ever have this problem before? Hope someone can help. Thanks.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 03-02-2004, 08:53 PM:

The motor is overheating and causing a thermal switch to trip shuttung it down.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-02-2004, 09:10 PM:

I agree with that but why should the thermal protection in the motor kick off after you have done something that should have alleviated excess load on the motor and should have made it run better?

Maybe you're having an incredible string of bad luck and the motor has shit the bed on you at the same time as the intermittent decided to puke. Maybe the jam-up from the intermittent blowing its guts trasked the motor.

On the other hand, I think you should verify that the projector tuns over by hand easily and smoothly. It could be something as simple as a belt that needs to be adjusted but you should also check your backlash/mesh on the gears you worked on. Also I would be concerned that the jam-up didn't strip or damage other gears in the power train.

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-02-2004, 09:10 PM:

Is there a possibility the bushing or the starwheel shaft was damaged when the sprocket was changed? If it is a "pinned" sprocket, there is a possibility that something may have become warped when the old pins were removed or re-installed. If this is true, when things come up to temperature you might have it lock up.

Replace the movement with a spare and see if the machine will sustain a long run. If it can, something went "not according to plan" when the sprocket was changed.

I don't know what kind of motor you have, but if it is the Robbins & Myers motor on an RCA soundhead or a Leland motor on the Simplex SH10** sound heads, I never heard of those old motors being equipped with a thermal sensor.

I think you have a damaged movement that is bringing your machine to a halt. Just by coincidence, you may have a gearbox chewing brass. When that happens, the pinion shaft will start to climb the gears and bting things to a screaching halt. However, I don't think this is happening in your situation.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 09:32 PM:

The motor is an original that came on the 1040. After changing the sprocket things turned over quite freely by hand. Once the thing stopped you could not turn it by hand, not until you let it rest for about 3-5 minutes then it would again turn freely by hand. I

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 09:33 PM:

The motor is an original that came on the 1040. After changing the sprocket things turned over quite freely by hand. Once the thing stopped you could not turn it by hand, not until you let it rest for about 3-5 minutes then it would again turn freely by hand. I have the worst luck. Should have known it would not go well.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-02-2004, 09:41 PM:

Sounds like thermal expansion to me.

Can you tell whether it's the motor binding up or the projector mechanism getting stiff? When it stalls, try disconnecting the belt or motor coupler to see where the problem lies.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-02-2004, 09:47 PM:

Probably the cam and star are jamming up when hot does it all ways seize in the same point of the intermitent cycle?

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 09:48 PM:

The last time it happened I took the intermittent out and before finishing the task it would turn freely again. I took it completely out and let the motor run for 30 minutes, no problem.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-02-2004, 10:19 PM:

I'm on board with Paul and Gordon. I think your intermittent is taking a dump on you. Fail that, there is a gear out of mesh somewhere in the power train.

I would check on both problems because it could be a complimentary situation where one problem exacerbates the other. If you fix one thing, the other could go wrong and put you right back to square one.

If you take the intermittent out of the machine and try to turn it by hand, does it turn easily without binding? It shouldn't be super easy to turn but you should be able to move it smoothly by hand and there should be no "bumps" or "grinds" in the mechanism.

Flush the piss out of it with clean oil to see if any junk comes out of it. You may see a small amount of shavings but any more than a nominal amount spells trouble.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 10:34 PM:

WHen the thing binds up I take the intermittent out and it does turn freely by hand. No grinding or bumps felt in turning it over. I dont understand how changing the sprocket would cause such a problem but apparently it has. I was extremely careful, when I took the intermittent apart to get to the sprocket. No stress on anything, oil was clean, putting the new pins in was a breeze, no pounding on it or anything. Are there bearings in the intermittent that should be changed? The star wheel and cam looked very clean and wear free.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-02-2004, 10:39 PM:

Am I missing something. Why would you have to take the whole intermittent apart just to change the sprocket. Wouldn't removing the outboard assembly be the only thing you would need to do to slide the sprocket off the shaft.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 10:43 PM:

You cant take the sprocket off a super without taking the whole thing out of the head, at least I couldnt see a what to do it. Not the most convienent design.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-02-2004, 10:49 PM:

You cant take the sprocket off a super without taking the whole thing out of the head, at least I couldnt see a what to do it. Not the most convienent design.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-02-2004, 10:53 PM:

I see what your saying. I just looked at the parts manual for that model. I am used to the later models were all you had to do is take the outboard piece off the intermittent and slide the sprocket off.

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 03-02-2004, 11:53 PM:

First, take the projector off the soundhead and run the soundhead by itself. If it locks up, then it is either the motor, or a bearing in the gearbox. Make sure the gear box has the proper oil level.

If the gearbox runs ok, then it is something to do with the projector head.

Use the books available on FT to trouble shoot the "head".

On the Super, the gear shafts rotate in the main casting. You may need to inspect the shafts and castings for burrs, which will require some disassembly.

Are you properly lubing the projector head? Are the oil tubes blocked?

Are the gear shafts running true? Are there damaged gears, or gears with excessive wear?

You need to use a logical approach to troubleshoot and isolate the problem.

Super and Regular/Standard double bearing intermittents were almost identical, except for the the style and placement of the oil filler tubes.

I never knew that Supers had intermittents with removable outer bearing ends?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-03-2004, 04:48 AM:

Since removing the intermittent totally frees everything up, there's not much point going through the hassle of removing the projection head from the sound head.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-03-2004, 09:49 AM:

quote:
I never knew that Supers had intermittents with removable outer bearing ends?

I am refering to the 1050 and the 1060 simplex models.

Posted by Bob Koch (Member # 1062) on 03-03-2004, 12:10 PM:

Still don`t know if the sprocket has a staking screw or taper pins. If you`ve taken the movement apart the starwheel shaft should turn freely and there should be barely perceptable end play. Since the movement was OK before you changed the sprocket I think the trouble is in the star shaft. If you had to force anything when removing the old sprocket you could have sprung the shaft.

Posted by Dave Ganoe (Member # 53) on 03-03-2004, 12:32 PM:

The sprocket uses 2 pins to hold it in place. The old pins came out pretty easy. I took the whole intermittent apart again and removed the cam which came out easily, the other shaft did not want to come out but after some light tapping it came out. Seemed a bit discolored and until I took it out it did not want to turn freely. cleaning it up and applying some fresh oil seem to loosen it up. Putting it back together went ok but when I run it there is a knocking sound like the cam and the other shaft that drives the cam are rubbing. if you tighten up the balancer that attaches to the back of the intermittent it gets rid of the noise but causes to much drag. I dont understand what keeps the drive shaft of the intermittent from moving inward toward the cam and rubbing together. Forgive me for not using the proper names of the items but its the best I can describe what is happening. I think bottom line is I will have to get another intermittent. Will a standard work in a super? At this point Id take what I can get.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-03-2004, 07:22 PM:

The super the standard and the regular simplex are the same movement as did the wenzel ace the gardnier the ballantyne BW and the devry's with a different flywheel to allow the chain drive probably the most used in different machine movement ever
Did you use a v block to remove the taper pins if not the odds are you have damaged the shaft or the bushing it seats in