Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Looking for some help with FM-35 failsafes

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Posted by Adam Witzel (Member # 2260) on 03-03-2004, 03:59 PM:

first off, hi, my name is Adam Witzel, I am a projection manager for a 9 screen theater in california.

Anyways, i run component engineering FM-35 failsafes on all of my machines, but i cant seem to figure out its cue configuration. I got ahold of a partial manual, which states where the inboard, outboard and center cue's are supposed to be placed, but it does not specify what their fucntion is.

Basically, i want a cue at the end of my leader to start projector, i want one at the end of my last trailer to dim down side lights, one in the credits to bring up sidelights, and one at the very end to close dowser/turn off projector. 4 functions i need, but only 3 cue placements listed, and my manual didnt say what the inboard, outboard and center cues functions were, just where the should be placed on the film. not sure what to do. any help / feedback is much appreciated, thanks
-adam

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 03-03-2004, 04:17 PM:

the cues don't have specific functions; that's determined by the automation it interfaces with. what automation do you have?

even though there are only 3 cue positions, you can combine them for a total of 7 cues (2^3-1).

carl

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-03-2004, 05:25 PM:

You could just ask the projector what the cue functions do.

There are 7 possible cues for your detector:

Outboard. (OB)
Inboard. (IB)
Center. (CQ)
OB + CQ (A strip that covers the inside 2/3 of the film.)
IB + CQ
IB + OB (Two cues on the same frameline.)
IB + CQ + OB (A strip that goes all the way across the film.)

Each one of these cues can have a different function.

Trick the failsafe or, better yet, activate the "Failsafe Defeat" switch if your automation has one. You probably don't need to have the lamp lit for this so shut the breaker off to the lamphouse. Shut the manual console dowser just for double safety.

Get yourself a pencil and some paper to take notes with.

Now, hit the start button and let the projector run as if there was a real show being started, except that there is no film in the projector. Write down what happens right after you press the button.

For example:
1) Pressed START button.
2) Projector motor starts. Lamp contactor closes. (You'll hear the "Click".)
3) Nothing happens.

At this point you should have progressed to the point where the trailers are about to start. Now, take a piece of aluminum foil that has been folded up into a long strip. (About the size and shape as a foil wrapper on a stick of chewing gum.) Slip it in to the cue detector in the position where the "Outboard Cue" would be expected. Watch what happens. Maybe the maybe the changeover will open and the sound will turn on. For instance:

5) OB Cue: Changeover OPEN. Sound to Stereo.

Repeat the process until you have covered all the bases and you have progressed all the way through your simulated show. Mind you, this is strictly a trial-and-error process. It could take you several tries at putting on a simulated show and "fishing" for cue events to get it right. Use your logic and intellect. You'll eventually figure out what your automation sequence is.

When you're all done with your experiment don't forget to put everything back the way it was before you started! Untrick the failsafe. Put the breakers back on. Re-enable the failsafe switch.

The reason I mention this is because there are some automation systems that are custom programmed. For instance, my Component Engineering model "TA-10" is programmed the way I want it to operate. There's probably nobody else who has a TA-10 that works quite the way mine does even if theirs looked exactly identical to mine on the outside.

In a case like this you'd have to do one of two things: Ask me how the system is programmed or look inside to see how the thing is wired. Even if you got hold of the documentation on the TA-10 you might not be able to tell how it works. (Except for the fact that I have documented my automation sequence on the back page of the manual.)

The good news is that if you tell us exactly the model of the automation system you have is the people here can either tell you what the automation sequence of your system is or help you figure it out.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 03-03-2004, 05:30 PM:

The actual number of cues is 7, laid out like this:

Outboard
Outboard + Center
Center
Center + Inboard
Inboard
Outboard + Inboard
Outboard + Center + Inboard

If I'm thinking about this correctly, there are seven "output" wires from the back of the detector that you must attach to specific function "inputs" on your automation. It's a very flexible setup, especially when coupled with Component Engineering's TA-10 automation.

- Mike

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-03-2004, 05:38 PM:

Note that it's entirely possible that some or all of these seven possible cues might not actually do anything. It could be that whoever installed your system just wanted failsafe functionality. It's also possible that whatever automation you are using does not have the ability to accept all seven cues.

When you do figure out what (if anything) each cue does, _please_ post that information next to the rewind bench (or at some other obvious place) at your theatre. Someday, someone will be very grateful that the information is readily available.

Posted by Adam Witzel (Member # 2260) on 03-03-2004, 05:47 PM:

thanks a lot for the repsonses guys, i go to work in a few hours, ill get an old trailer and put all 7 ques on them and run it through, making notes of what functions i get. hopefully will solve my probs, thanks again!
-adam

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-03-2004, 09:25 PM:

What automation are you using. That can be very important in determening what the cues do. Some only use three cues some can use all 7. Christies 3Q automation requires a cue expander to allow more cues than the standard 3 that it offers.

If you are using the Christie 3Q automation then you will need the following cues for basic operation.

Inboard cue for projector start
center cue for lights down at end of trailers
Cross Cue one strip across film inboard center and outboard to bring lights up at begining of credits.
outboard cue for shutting down picture and sound to non-sync

If you are running ads a cue expander can be used to add a cross cue to bring lights down to half.

Posted by Adam Witzel (Member # 2260) on 03-04-2004, 04:44 AM:

i checked to find out exactly what type of automation i have , i couldnt get a model number, just says 'hi-tech' on the panel.....

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-04-2004, 05:07 AM:

Adam, every piece of equipment manufactured in the US is hi-tech. BTW, isn`t Lindsay close to the Sequoia National Park? My mother is coming to visit soon, we want to check out Death Valley, what are the cool places in Sequoia to stop by?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 03-04-2004, 11:28 AM:

ahh, the MegaSystem HI-TECH automations....

They only are configured to take three cues maximum, and one of those was a kludge-in to do a lighting control that the auto didn't support.

Do they look like this?

-Aaron

Posted by Adam Witzel (Member # 2260) on 03-05-2004, 05:12 AM:

michael, Lindsay is about 2-3 hours death valley, unfortunately i cant help ya out with any tips on the 'hot spots' over there as I just recently moved here myself, sorry man.

Aaron, my interface looks very similar to the one you posted, but not exact, my theater just recently purchased a digital camera, ill get a pic of it and post it, hopefully that will help you guys help me [Wink]

thanks again for all the feedback
-Adam

Posted by Adam Witzel (Member # 2260) on 03-09-2004, 02:11 AM:

ok i got a pic of my automation, unfortunately i was having probs uploading it, cant seem to get it posted, but Aaron, my automation is defenently a megasystem like you described, as it looks *almost* exaclty the same as the one you posted, the button labeled 'cue advance' on you pic is normal mode, and the one directly across from it on the right is labeled interlock mode on my automation, and my panel is blue with the white outline, aside from that, everything is the same as the pic you posted. that being said, do you have any idea what the cue configuration on this automation is? thanks
-adam

also what do you mean by 'kludge in?'

Posted by Kevin Alcorn, Sr. (Member # 2105) on 03-09-2004, 03:28 AM:

Component Engineering is the best Automation on the market to date as with its flexibility and accuracy. Just get to know its intricacies and you`ll know all it`s attributes.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-09-2004, 09:06 AM:

Adam
Call Component Engineering at 206-284-9171 and ask for Don Olson. You'll have all your answers right there.
Don's a nice guy and easy to talk to.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 03-09-2004, 12:58 PM:

From the factory, the cue config on the MegaSystem Hi-Tech auto is:

inboard cue: lights down (I am not 100% sure)

outboard cue: close dowser, change sound to non-sync

I had to reverse these cue points on my FM35s (to make them compatible with the other autos in this complex without having to re-cue a print if it moved into one of these houses) and added an extra set of terminals to facilitate the center cue of the FM35 for 'lights up'. Also I had to add a relay to control the slide projectors (that was the 'kludging in' I referred to).

I might have a manual for these sitting around somewhere.

-Aaron