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Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 03-05-2004, 02:59 PM:
 
I took a day off last week and had one of the managers cover for me in the projection booth. When I came back, one of my movies has a long scratch running down the mid left side of the movie at the last twenty minutes of the movie. It's only at the end of the movie, but I can't figure out what the manager did to scratch the movie? Anyone have an idea?

[ 03-06-2004, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Matthew Stevens ]
 

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Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-05-2004, 03:12 PM:
 
Hey!! No teaser titles!!

(just practicing for when Brad asks me to be a moderator. )
 

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Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 03-05-2004, 03:14 PM:
 
Need details on equipment used, however badly.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-05-2004, 03:23 PM:
 
'Last twenty minutes' suggests last reel. Is this a changeover show? If yes, the answer is almost certainly that the last reel was misthreaded. Can't be a projector fault because if it was, several previous alternating reels would have also been scratched.

If you're a platter, tower or 6,000 foot spool show, then what variable could affect just the last 20 minutes? A bit of abrasive crap which lodged itself in a nasty place could answer that question, but as David F says, we really need some more info to help you on this one.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-05-2004, 03:40 PM:
 
Probably a bad splice (assuming you're running off platters -- although you're running a twin theatre, so who knows).

Please edit the subject title to something that identifies the topic a little better.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-05-2004, 04:16 PM:
 
I agree, if it's a changeover situation, and only one reel got scratched, it was likely a misthread. Are you using old-style magazines with the three-roller "fire rollers"? (they were notorious for picking up debris that could scratch, or developing flats on the rollers that could scratch film).

In a platter situation, abrasive debris could have built up somewhere in the film path. Does the scratch start at a splice? Do you see a buildup of skivings or debris anywhere in the film path? (A deep scratch usually generates quite a bit of debris at the site of the thing causing the scratch).
 

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Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 03-05-2004, 04:42 PM:
 
I would have thought that orginally that is was a bad splice, however, when I watched it on thrusday night it was perfect. No problems. I took Saturday off and the last reel is scratched.

Equipment- Century C projector; Sound- Simplex IRC with BACP RSTR 2000 LED's; Christie Lamphouse with CXL- 20 xenon bulb; TA-10 Theatre Automation; Strong Platter System- model: 35-AP3; Smart Tower with Smart MOD 2 B cimema Stero Processor, Smart MN580 Active Booth Monitor and 2 Smart TA425 Cinmea Amplifiers; and 1 FC-1 Christie Film Cleaner.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-05-2004, 05:13 PM:
 
Matthew -- you really need to change the title of your thread or something bad is going to happen to it.

"What the heck is going on with this movie?" is not very descriptive at all.

What does the scratch look like? Is it a black scratch or a greenish/yellowish one?

If the scratch is black then you want to seek out the parts of your system that come into contact with the base side of the film. A green/yellow scratch means the emulsion side has been affected.

Have more scratches appeared as a result of subsequent showings?

If so then you have a real problem that should not be too difficult to track down: Simply follow the entire film path bearing in mind which side of film was affected.

If not, this will be a little harder to track down. The problem -- perhaps a bit of accumulated dirt -- could have even cleared itself out of the film path.

BTW -- While it doesn't hurt to include the components of your *entire* system, it is nonetheless a safe bet that your sound equipment (processor and amps) are not at fault.
 

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Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 03-05-2004, 09:05 PM:
 
Matthew,

My first guess would be the film cleaner. Since it was the end of the film that was scratched, it could be that the cleaning medium ran out, stalled or broke lose from the spool. The cause could be difficult to trace as the rewound cleaner would have the furbish it collected from the damaged print in later passes.

What is your standard practice on the cleaner operation? Did the replacement operator know and REMEMBER that little detail?

I would be curious to know the condition of that cleaning medium.

Hope this helps.

KEN
 

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Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 03-05-2004, 10:13 PM:
 
Matthew--

"The solution to ANY problem lies within the problem itself"
You = Projectionist
Manager = Whatever

fjn
 

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Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 03-06-2004, 05:32 AM:
 
We had an episode early in the run of Matrix Revolutions: The IMAX Experience where a misthread caused the entire print to be scratched. However, it was a very light scratch, emulsion side, and did not appear visible on screen except for a couple random reels. (Keep in mind, this print was 38 reels, as IMAX reels are 3.5 minutes long.) And when the scratch did appear, it was black (except for the one reel, in which it turned green for a horrifying 10 seconds).

If a misthread takes the film over a scratch-threatening surface, it's possible that it won't scratch the print, but every splice that passes by will adjust the position just slightly, likely just enough to start scratching; as this is what happened with Matrix. Most of the film didn't show the scratch at all, but it was there!

I had to order and replace reels #21 and #36 ... that was a fun night!
 

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Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 03-06-2004, 02:26 PM:
 
Well, I found out what happened. I took a closer look at the entire movie. Since alot of the movie is dark. It looked like it was just at the end of the movie. However I looked at the first trailer (touching the void) and it was scratched as well. I ask both managers what happened and who was threading that show. They told me they don't remember (LIARS). One quit three days after and another is no longing working here. The one who quit told me that the other manager misthreaded and ran the ENTIRE MOVIE (not once checking on it) and messed it all up.

BTW- I'm sorry if I put to much information out there about my system, I just wanted to help
 

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Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 03-06-2004, 06:04 PM:
 
Matthew,

My guess is the misthread was in the projector. Something fixed like the sound head cowling is most likely to be at fault.

Study the film path for any build up of emulsion dust. It would probably be wiped clean by now, however someone must have noticed.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-06-2004, 06:51 PM:
 

quote:

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BTW -- While it doesn't hurt to include the components of your *entire* system, it is nonetheless a safe bet that your sound equipment (processor and amps) are not at fault.

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Manny, Manny, Manny, if you only knew how many prints the USL CM35 has destroyed over the years.
 

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Posted by Matthew Stevens (Member # 2167) on 03-06-2004, 10:08 PM:
 
Chris- how can dust from a movie, scratch a movie?
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-06-2004, 10:14 PM:
 
How, easily.

If dust/dirt/whatever builds up on something that comes in contact with the film (making it 'unsmooth') it can scratch the film just as easily as a knife can.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-06-2004, 10:17 PM:
 
Yeah, the booth monitor is always the first thing that should be checked whenever a print gets scratched. The exciter supply is always a suspect, too. As are the masking motors.

Remember that it's never the operator's fault. People don't scratch prints, machines do.
 

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Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 03-06-2004, 10:26 PM:
 
We had a top roller that was seldom used, 1 day we threaded up using the roller in question, & scratch marcs everywhere.
Stopped the movie & gave a quick blow of compressed air & away again. Assume dust buildup.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-06-2004, 10:27 PM:
 
I've actually seen an exciter supply scratch a print Scott. Talk about a dumb mounting location.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-07-2004, 10:03 AM:
 
Hey, if the digital sound people were more militant they would make their readers destroy the other guys' digital tracks, of course dismissing it with"Sorry but you chose a stupid place on the print to put your track!"

Edit: Oddity: Clicking to post this took me straight out to the main forum menu.
 

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Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 03-08-2004, 11:10 AM:
 
I had a problem where scratches would come and go. Noticed that the scratch would stop or start right after a splice. Turned out to be that the failsafe was installed out-of-line with the takeup roller on the projector. Splices would make the film jump out of the roller groove (or back in).
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 03-08-2004, 11:34 AM:
 
Yes, dirt build up can scratch a print but wha tI think Chris was talking about was looking to see if there was any build up of dust from the print being scratched. Usually a tale tell sign of how a scratch happened is there will be a lot of dust wher the scratch actually happened.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-08-2004, 12:04 PM:
 
A perfect example of how dirt can scratch would be that horrific print of Pink Floyd The Wall I ran last month. (see the "YOU SUCK!" thread for details)

The print was COVERED in dirt. Reel 5 had the least amount of black scratches/abrasion, Reel 4 had more, and so on down to Reel 1, which was the worst in terms of black base scratches.

I'm assuming what happened was when the infidel broke it down, they GRABBED the film in their fist and held down TIGHT while it rewound. (Why the hell do people do this? And why do people train other people to do this?!?!)The result, as the dirt built up under the fucker's fingers, was the same as sandpaper as the film passed through it.

The only thing worse than a bad projectionist is bad management who are too dumb to solve any problem other than a soda bib being out. And I've been called to help them with that before.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2004, 12:13 PM:
 
With the widescale availability of affordable on-line film cleaners, "Film Done Right" now includes cleaning the film each time it is projected. If abrasive dirt particles get on the film and the film is cinched, the film WILL get cinch marks. If abrasive dirt particles build up on a film-contacting component, they will cause a longitudinal scratch if the film contacts them. Keep the film path AND the film clean.

NEVER let the film or leader come into contact with a dirty floor. Keep all work surfaces like rewind benches and make-up tables clean (wipe them down during the day, or use a central vacuum system), and try to keep the film surface from coming into contact with surfaces that may be dirty. Keep food, drink, and smoking away from film handling areas. Handle film by the edges only, with clean hands (film handlers gloves are recommended for those who have difficulty keeping fingerprints off the film).
 

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Posted by John Anastasio (Member # 607) on 03-08-2004, 03:28 PM:
 
I've had a film scratch a print simply because the medium wasn't moving fast enough to move the residue out of the way before it starting building up (especially old B&W prints). Fortunately it happened while we were watching, so damage was limited to only a few feet, but I learned to clean old prints FIRST before threading up, even with the cleaner operating normally.
 

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Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 03-09-2004, 05:26 AM:
 
IMAX film path always has PTR's, and they work great! Combined with the minimal wear involved with the "rolling loop", these prints stay pristine (save any operator error!) for years. The prints of Into The Deep 3D we used to run must have had 3000 passes under its belt, and it was clean ... sure it was a Frankenstein print with all the sections of replaced footage, but it was clean!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-09-2004, 05:37 AM:
 
I guess someone needs to call the IMAX Police because I have not seen any IMAX presentations in probably a decade that I would call pristine at any location I've been to. Remember too that the magnification is less, so dirt doesn't appear as large as if you were filling a similar sized screen from a 35mm print. IMAX should be a fantastic experience, but in these parts they need to get their asses in gear and put on a better presentation...picture and sound. There are 35mm 'plexes that slaughter their level of quality, and that shouldn't be happening.
 

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Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 03-09-2004, 05:56 AM:
 
I'm afraid you've been going to ghetto IMAX theatres, then. I suppose some museum locations that have been running Galapagos 3D since the lizards evolved are pretty shoddy. Dust and debris on IMAX prints are actually MORE visible, since it tends to stick to the field lens (which is designed to then wipe it away), but the image quality shows no film grain (at least not from the middle of the auditorium), and the sound system is all digital, crisp, and properly EQ'ed.

We've been on IMAX hiatus until this week (NASCAR 3D opens) and we've been running Return of the King in that auditorium, on our recently retrofitted Simplex 35mm. The throw is incredibly bright, as it actually fills the entire width of the IMAX screen (90 feet). But, the grain, dirt, and emerging scratches just scream, "This is DEFINITELY not IMAX!" And the focus? Forget about it!
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-09-2004, 10:23 AM:
 
"I'm afraid you've been going to ghetto IMAX theatres, then. I suppose some museum locations that have been running Galapagos 3D since the lizards evolved are pretty shoddy."
Very untrue most museums and non multiplex large format houses blow the comercial ones out of the water for presentation standards
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-09-2004, 01:02 PM:
 
I must be lucky. I've never seen a bad Imax presentation. And I've never heard an Imax sound system that didn't put the typical theatre system (even a good THX house) to shame. I think I saw one show once where the glass thing (field flattener?) was dirty and it could be seen moving up and down throughout the show, but I don't think I would have noticed it if I hadn't been shown how the system worked.
 

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Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-09-2004, 01:24 PM:
 
I really enjoyed APOLLO 13 in IMAX but the sound and image were noticeably out of sync throughout. None of the other IMAX movies had any real "lip-sync" footage so it's hard to tell if that was ever an issue with those presentations.

Most IMAX presentations I have seen were technically very good. My major complaint with IMAX was centred on the movies themselves and the high admission cost.

With the rising cost of admission to 35mm presentations and the hit-or-miss quality available at the standard multiplex, I tend to wait for DVD's for most of the general releases. "Harry Potter," "Catwoman" and "The Matrix" are not movies that I would typically patronize theatrically so releasing them in IMAX doesn't do much in the way of attracting my business.

Still, if given a choice between seeing a movie I cared about at a multiplex (in 35mm) or at an IMAX venue, I would probably opt for the IMAX show. Having said that, it would also depend somewhat on the multiplex in question and how much/little I knew of the place. It would also depend on the distance to the nearest IMAX theatre offering the movie.
 

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Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 03-09-2004, 08:28 PM:
 
Any out-of-sync situation would be completely operator oriented. Since the film has no sound information on it at all (unmarried), the sound system is synched to a start frame. Once it's running, synched or not, it will stay that way the whole show, as there's no way to fix it after the fact. But synching up at the beginning is not hard to fudge ... if you know what you're doing.

I'm glad Warner Bros. is taking advantage of the format, but DMR (while incredibly better than 35mm) is not as crisp as anything actually shot in IMAX. And we have no control over ticket prices, but I think it's more worth it to see a 2.5 hour film than a 45-minute one.

But then again, I've seen Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions well over 100 times each (don't even ask about Lion King!) and I, personally, lose my ability to judge whether or not I'd pay for them.
 

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Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-09-2004, 10:05 PM:
 

quote:

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...I have not seen any IMAX presentations in probably a decade that I would call pristine at any location I've been to.

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quote:

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...most museums and non multiplex large format houses blow the comercial ones out of the water for presentation standards.

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quote:

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...with the minimal wear involved with the "rolling loop"...

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quote:

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...run must have had 3000 passes...

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quote:

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...15,000 passes is not unusual. The film must be replaced due color fading from the lamp UV rather than from mechanical failure or scratching.

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I have samples of a 70mm 5-perf Kodak ESTAR base color print that was run 60,310 passes at one of the special venue theme parks. None the worse for wear other than slight scuffing of the edges and perforation area, and slight fading from over 60,000 exposures to the UV from the xenon lamp. "Film Done Right".
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-10-2004, 12:34 PM:
 
Brian said "Any out-of-sync situation would be completely operator oriented. Since the film has no sound information on it at all (unmarried), the sound system is synched to a start frame. Once it's running, synched or not, it will stay that way the whole show, as there's no way to fix it after the fact. But synching up at the beginning is not hard to fudge ... if you know what you're doing"

Not correct there can be sync drift caused either by a issue with the timecode generator or in the case of the DDP it sometimes does it on its own
In most cases the MagnaTech is always spot on

If the timecode generator is a JSK box it can be jogged while running to catch up or retard

Phil said"That certainly isn't true. The conventional Geneva is much gentler to film. The deceleration cam/claw of the rolling loop is the primary reason for the extreme stress"
The rolling loop is far more gentle and if the cam is set correctly it causes little stress. Yet to see a working 15perf geneva (saw the Vic8 on it's side and we all know how well tat ran )
 

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Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 03-10-2004, 04:29 PM:
 
Maybe on traditional timecode systems it would drift. (I haven't worked with any before.)

As I understand it, the IMAX projector is hardwired to send a pulse to the main console eight times every turn of the rotor (it's an eight-gap rotor, so basically once-a-frame). The pulse marks a frame count that the DTAC sound system constantly references, so it synchs up to a frame count, not necessarily an external timecode.

We've had sound issues where the computer hard drive skips or gets stuck; but at that point we just stop and restart the DTAC (while the projector itself is still running) and it gets back on track with the frame count.

I used to work with the DDP system. It never drifted on me, though. I do kind of wish the system could be jogged forward or backward to keep up, while running, should a show be started off synch. I guess they designed it to discipline the operator to be perfect every time, which I believe is ultimately more important.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-11-2004, 11:07 AM:
 
The normal tach speed is 10 pulse per frame in quadrature so it would be 24o pulses per second in quadrature yeilding a tach clock of 960Hz and from what I remember the standard Spice nutmeg and garlic reads standard tach info or maybe that has changed
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 06-22-2004, 09:49 AM:
 
Looking to the experts for some assistance.

Equipment:
Christie Package
P35GPS Head, AW3 Platter, SLC Lamphouses
Either CAT-701 or DTS Penthouse readers

Anyway, one of my prints received the following scratch.
(Look at second frame, across her forehead.)



This tick mark repeats itself approx every 12 frames, and each successive tick shows up one sprocket farther down the image.
What you can't see are the tiny scratches that are only on the right half of the image. They seem to have a definate boundary. Is doesn't exceed mid frame on the left, or continue to the right edge of frame.

I've been thinking that it happened when, gasp, someone turned the ultramittent knob to the north pole position. But then, how can the angle of the scratch be so shallow.

Thanks for your help
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-22-2004, 11:27 AM:
 
It sure looks like a "platter scratch" or scratch from the film riding up on a large diameter roller flange. Does the scratch repeat exactly 16 frames plus one perf, or just close to it?
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 06-22-2004, 03:59 PM:
 
John, it was pretty on to being 12 frames plus 1 perf. A platter scratch would have been on the other side unless one of my operators did something wrong by putting a twist in the film path somewhere or coming off the Christie Take up assy.

Thanks
 

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Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 06-22-2004, 04:49 PM:
 
I'm thinking that the film wasn't properly in a roller somewhere. The visable scratch comming from a burr or something like that on the flange of the roller. Plus could explain the other non-visable scratches you describe. Sounds lik the film was pinched between the flange of the roller and the keeper, instead of seated on the roller properly.

I'm guessing probably the roller under the projector, as it would take a fair ammount of pressure to create the green/yellow scratch seen.
 

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Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 06-22-2004, 08:34 PM:
 
Same sort of scratch happened to me from the take-up arm roller
 

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