Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Intermittent shutter drop out.

This is topic Intermittent shutter drop out. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005926

Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 03-06-2004, 06:20 PM:

I am running Kinoton FP30D projectors, with 15 * 15 matrix automation set up. The shutter in question is the 'flip-flop' style plate (not the spring loaded variety.)

My problem is that the shutter is randomly closing - sometimes at the start of show, sometimes 5 minutes from the feature end. By random I mean it has happened about 5 times in 3 months (2 of those weeks I was on leave, thinking I had fixed the problem.)

I have replaced the 24V relay that triggers to open the shutter and also the shutter open switch, which I tested relentlessly and found that it was staying open circuit about 1 in every 30 pushes. I cannot find fault with the shutter close switch while testing. I have also had a look at the commmon and active wiring to the shutter itself, which are all in good shape.

As I'm sure most of you can appreciate, intermittent problems are a real ball-breaker. Has anyone had any similar problem in the past or can lead me in the right direction? Any help would be much appreciated.

FYI - regularity of drop out has been about once a fortnight.

Posted by Travis Hubrig (Member # 1745) on 03-07-2004, 02:17 AM:

once a fortnight? could you translate to stupid american?

Up here I think that would be: in a coon's age. [Wink]

Sorry this didn't help with your problem.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-07-2004, 09:13 AM:

I haven't spoken the Queen's English in a while but I think a fornight is about 2 weeks..?

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 03-07-2004, 09:38 AM:

Manny
14 days and 14 nights is the right answer [thumbsup]

Surely you all speak correctly in the Bahamas.After all you are part of Her Majesty's Commonwealth [Wink]

Posted by Jackson Gilman (Member # 2142) on 03-07-2004, 04:18 PM:

Slightly similar problems have indeed occurred in our booth, although many of them were human error, (wrong program with the wrong print.)

Is the electromagnet actually pulling it shut, or is the blade simply falling shut? Some of our projectors had a problem where the changeover would fall back into its closed position.

Noting that you have matrix-style automation (if I'm thinking clearly, that would be hard-wired programming?) have you checked to see if any of your diodes have the slightest leak current? If so, that may be the culprit as well. However, I have never worked with that kind of automation.

Good luck!

Posted by Chris Byrne (Member # 1563) on 03-08-2004, 12:53 AM:

Jackson,

The actual problem has only happened once to me during a show (the other times it has been another of my workmates on shift.)

When it happened to me, I had just fit a new open switch due to suspect contacts on the original switch. I am almost certain the cause of shutter closing was due to a locking screw on the rear of the switch which had worked its way loose. This in turn caused an open circuit.

Although the problem hasn't occurred for over a fortnight - I think it is still very much there. I have isolated the matrix and shutter seems to work independent of it, so that would rule any matrix induced problems out.

Posted by Douglas Curry (Member # 1485) on 10-13-2004, 11:20 PM:

Just to update on this problem in case anyone else stumbles along the same lines..

The problem was a little bit deeper than we thought. Ended up being the PCB the shutter relay resides on. Old 'dry' solder joins behind the board coming too loose over time.

Easy fix, pain in the but to find.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-14-2004, 12:15 AM:

Thank you for the update. Somewhere, someone, at some point in the future will be searching the forums for a solution to this problem, and you may have just saved them a ton of energy in tracking it down. [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-14-2004, 01:23 AM:

And the real solution will be to throw that god awful see-saw Biideklappe away and put in the modern version.

Steve

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-14-2004, 02:45 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Biideklappe

What does that mean?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-14-2004, 07:18 AM:

Perhaps Bildeklappe?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-14-2004, 01:09 PM:

I don't know that word either.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 10-14-2004, 02:17 PM:

Yeah but it sounds a bit more plausible. Something that klaps down on the picture.

Larry?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-14-2004, 08:06 PM:

bildeklappe: picture flap, or in context, changeover shutter.

The see-saw version is indeed a piece of junk.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 10-15-2004, 02:43 AM:

No guys, it's "Bildklappe". When I communicate in foreign languages, I try to respect and observe the other language's spelling and grammar as well as I can. In real life, German is not as hideous as in "The Great Dictator". OTOH, it's not so important, I just wanted to pick on G for using a foreign term (which looks kind of cool and worldly) but misspelling it totally.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-15-2004, 08:30 AM:

Now Michael...don't you think the second "i" in my spelling might, just might, have been a typo? I mean...two "i"s right together doesn't come up too much? Does it? Then there is the extra "e" in there. However, if you pay attention to my posts elsewhere on the board you will find my misspellings are non-regional...I slaughter the language with equal vigor. While we are on the douser subject...even in english you can make it dowser rather than douser and you are wigging out over the extra "e"? In fact, I tried a translation both Bildeklappe and Bildklappe returned the same results.

My German completely revolves around projector parts. The manuals are much more English friendly nowadays than before Kinoton America. The German-English translation (like all translations) doesn't always convey. We have a "cut-sheet" for some piece of Kinoton equipment where the "Prices are subject to chance.

In the case of the Bildklappe, if you didn't know that word, you wouldn't know it is the changeover and sometimes in the schematics, is only referenced as "BK" even today. There are some terms that still come up like zwischen (between) in not only projectors but lenses.

Steve

Posted by Bill Langfield (Member # 818) on 10-15-2004, 10:22 AM:

Does that mean I will not get picked on about my spelling of DOWSER when that is how it spelt on Vic 8/5's.

Yes, good, cool.

My grammar sux too.

However, my POINT is, if you get the general idea of the post, JUST reply without an English (American) correction.

STEVE, I do NOT believe you had to explain your spelling.

Bill.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-15-2004, 01:21 PM:

Bill, I was, more or less, just shoving it back at Michael...to jump on that typo and then when others pointed it out that "he didn't know that word either" was a bit over the top...I joined in!

Having dealt with Kinoton for quite some time some terms are used when conversing amungst ourselves since that is how they are printed in various documentation...kinda like using Kleenex instead of "facial tissue." When assembling a lamphouse to a projector...when one us asks for a zwischentube (of course we Americanize it so it sounds like "Svissen-tuben") there is no ambiquity as to what they want.

Steve