Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How long should cue tape be?

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 03-07-2004, 06:43 AM:

My lights are controlled by automation with cue tape. My manager when she builds up a print puts a piece that isusually about 4 1/2 frames long on the beginning and the credits of each film. If I need to change out cue tape on the credits, I usually put one that is 2 frames long. How long should it be?

Also, What is the best way to rewind the credits to change out the cue tape. Should I get a MUT and an empty reel? My manager taught me to just unspool the film on the floor till you get to the tape. What is the best way with a minimal turnaround time to change it out?

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-07-2004, 06:58 AM:

Cues a few sprockets in length are usually more than sufficient. Of course it all depends on the cue detector. Usually one frame length is more than enough though.

One benefit to using only a frame length cue (or less) is that if you get the cue tape in frame (not crossing a frame line) it won't pulsate on screen if the edge of the cue ends up on screen. Of course, done right an inboard or outboard cue should never end up on the screen.

As for "changing out cues" I first have to ask why?

Depending how far in your cues are you might be able to just loosen the film on the platter, without actually taking it off the platter. Once you've loosened off a few layers of the film just pull the film with the cue on it up and away you go. Be careful not to cinch mark the film by pulling it tight when done. Just leave it loose, or carefully wind it back up tight. This is really only useful for a shutdown cue though.

If you have to reposition your credit start cue, you're going to have to wind the film on a reel using the MUT. Though, if everybody's paying attention when they build films this should be a pretty rare event.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-07-2004, 07:32 AM:

quote:
My manager taught me to just unspool the film on the floor till you get to the tape.

A perfect example of film done wrong! If that manager was working for me, he/she wouldn't be! What a dope!

>>> Phil

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 03-07-2004, 07:53 AM:

I just aquired an old print from the year 1981 that has cue tape almost 6 inches long and totally covering the sprocket area.

This shows that FILM DONE WRONG has been happening for a long time.

This film obviously jumped off a sprocket at some point. There are several ropes that run across the film image area past this cue. Luckily, there is no perf damage.

[ 03-07-2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Bruce McGee ]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-07-2004, 08:09 AM:

If you have a contact type cue reader then your cues should be a little bit longer than the distance between the contact rollers. You want to be sure the conductive tape is spanning the distance between the rollers, then you want a little extra just to be sure. Maybe an inch or so. Of course, if your automation/cue reader needs more than that to be sure you'll pick the cue every time then make it longer. Experimentation/experience is the key.

If you have a proximity type cue reader like the FM-35 then the cue can be anywhere from 1/4 inch long on up. I tell my people to make it about one frame long. (4 sprocket holes.) The reasoning behind that is to ensure the cue is read 100% of the time even if it's slightly out of position. It's also easier to see when you go to remove the cues.

If you have to change out the cues I'm guessing you have a contact cue reader. Sometimes, if you use cheap tape, they wear out and stop working as well. May I suggest that cleaning the reader every show would be a good practice? While you're at it, do the rest of the projector. [Wink]

JK (I know YOU do it. I'm talking to your manager.

PS: Tell your manager that there are about 2 dozen people all areound the world cursing his name right now! May his testicles get caught in a sprocket!

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 03-07-2004, 08:31 AM:

Richard wrote:
My manager when SHE builds up a print puts a piece that isusually about 4 1/2 frames long on the beginning and the credits of each film.

Randy , perhaps SHE already got HIS testicles caught [Eek!]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-07-2004, 08:41 AM:

quote:
testicles get caught in a sprocket!

Why do I fear there's a story about that Randy?

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-07-2004, 10:26 AM:

The 1981 print was probably cued with the old direct contact cue detector in mind that requires an actual electrical contact to be made between rollers by the cue tape. Rather unreliable over the long term. Tape longer than the distance between rollers improves the odds that contact would be made. Also I believe some of the old non-electronic cam timer automations require a cue long enough to move the cam motor out of the dwell position so the cam switch that feeds the cam motor picks up and motors it the rest of the way.

Posted by Chris Medley (Member # 2145) on 03-07-2004, 11:22 AM:

So the general consensus with teh FM-35's is one frame lenght. I tried the 1/4 an inch and the reader often wouldn't read the cue, even with a cleaning. But more than one frame seems like it would freak out the reader, and as has been mentioned, show on the screen if it is out of place

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-07-2004, 11:27 AM:

Indeed the FM-35 doesn't really have a built in cue stretcher as does the Kelmar and Eprad detector. The Kelmar stretcher works best in my expereince... I just never have ANY complaints about them at all. It only requires a dot of foil and the detector picks up that dot and makes it a one second pulse. The Eprad does require a longer piece of foil in order to function properly, at least a frame. But it still makes the cue look longer that that. With the FM-35 you get out what you put in so to say plus a little drop out time delay on the internal cueing relay. If Kelmar would just get rid of the film break drop arms they'd really have something!

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-07-2004, 12:18 PM:

quote:

Dick Vaughan: Randy , perhaps SHE already got HIS testicles caught...

Well, OK then... May she GROW some testicles and THEN have them ripped off by a sprocket!

quote:

Daryl C. W. O'Shea: Why do I fear there's a story about that Randy?

No, there isn't a story but I'll make one up it it'll make you happy! [Wink]

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 03-07-2004, 01:00 PM:

If I have to replace a cue I pull the ring and basically "collapse" the print so that I will have it loose on the last reel and put the new cue on. Then I replace the ring in the center to straighten out the print.

I have not had any problems as far as damaging a print or a platter problem after doing so, but I wouldnt do it this way unless your platters feed smoothly or unless you have a Film-Tech Platter Safety Ring. In other words, if your platters suck then do it another way, but no, it should not be would onto the floor. If you have to wind it off then get a CLEAN plastic tub and wind it into that, but make sure that the film doesnt touch the edges of the box and make sure it isnt scratching on the platter deck.

Last thing, place your cues evenly and neatly and it will help them to last longer, if you are going through them alot, I would have a tech checkout your sprockets.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-07-2004, 01:32 PM:

The FAR easier way is to be there when the lights up cue SHOULD be and then walk over to the platter and insert a few 4 inch cores into the roll as the film is taking up where the cue should be. Then after the show is over, pop the cores out (be careful so you don't scratch the film...always pull one of the center ones out first and always use 3 or more) and then you can effortlessly lift that few feet out of the film roll and apply your cue.

Alternatively, use the mut and a 2000 foot reel and simply back it off onto the reel. Anything else and you are at risk of film damage.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 03-07-2004, 01:59 PM:

Thanks for the advice. I do notice that the credits DO seem more scratched after it is done my managers way.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-07-2004, 04:55 PM:

We can get away with a horizontal (across the frame line) cue of only a couple of millimetres wide. We cut it in lengths to suit. Works well on scope prints and are well hidden from view if we can find a scene change shortly before the credits start. We can then add a delay to the house preset activation and adjust it if necessary (for example:to coincide with a music change or rolling credits start).

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-07-2004, 05:19 PM:

Several factors enter in that were not discussd. If it were the old mechanical pick-off roller type of detector, sometimes up to 4 inches were needed for the automation to "see" it. And that also depended on how well the grounding roller worked, and what the voltage was that the automation provided. In addition to that, whether the automation provided AC or DC voltage made a difference. The Xetron Maxi-*DC were absolutely terrible. The standard Maxi-* was not too bad, but it left alot to be desired. They had a 90% hit when the cue came waltzing by.

If course, another thing that really entered the picture was how good of shape the cue was still in, and how good of quality the cue tape was.

Proximity detectors are the way to go. The old mechanical cue detectors belong in the trash masher...they were good in their day, but their day is long gone.

Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 03-07-2004, 05:47 PM:

Brad's method is better, but you can only do it that way if you know you have to change it. I usually find out from the alarm going off and I know I wont remember while it runs the next round.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-07-2004, 07:19 PM:

Why is there a need to be changing the cue in the first place?

Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 03-07-2004, 07:38 PM:

Steve, some cues go to crap with the mechanical pick-off rollers because of oil and stuff, in addition to some of the el cheapo cue tapes fracturing. That does not happen with the prox detectors.

Unfortunately because of the automation types of the older style, the cues may not be compatible to other automations.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-07-2004, 08:01 PM:

Mark's comment...

quote:
If Kelmar would just get rid of the film break drop arms they'd really have something!

Mark, I guess you've had different experiences than I have, but in my opinion NOTHING beats the Kelmar proxy cue detectors. The microswitch "film break" works and works well. Also those proxy detectors will pick up the tiniest piece of cue tape...literally the size of a dot like a Sharpie marker would make if you tapped it on a piece of paper! The FM35 is a damn good product, but there is just too much to go wrong and the thing must be kept squeaky clean whereas the Kelmar will just work even if neglected. It's simple design is the key. [thumbsup]

On the subject of cues, I find Neumade's "Aucuta II" on sheets to be the best cue tape anywhere. It's size is perfect to lay over the edge and sprockets (without "wrap-around") and I have never seen one come off. The cues also never miss. A very close second is a product from Jack Roe. It is 1000 cues on a roll. My only complaint of them is that they are just a tiny bit too wide and if you have a full width setup (out to the 825 line on PA35) you will see the edge of the cue flash on the extreme right edge. Also they are thick and can cause the focus to blip or shift the image on some projectors. On the positive side though, you will never find an easier set of cues, all perfectly precut in length and no "picking" at the sheet trying to get one off. Like the Neumade cues, they never miss either. However ALL other cue tape on the market is crap.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-07-2004, 08:05 PM:

Unfortunately because of the automation types of the older style, the cues may not be compatible to other automations.

I hope you mean when a print gets moved because if you mean cue foil left by another theatre for shame! Film Done Wrong to leave crap on the print.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-07-2004, 08:18 PM:

Totally overlooking the possibility that you know you have to change your cue tape ahead of time I didn't mention the method Brad did.

Anyway, I prefer to use sponges instead. It virtually eliminates the chance of scratching the film. Just place two sponges on the takeup platter one on each side of the roll (across from each other) and that's it. When the show is done, pull the sponges out and fix your cue / splice / whatever.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2004, 09:47 AM:

Brad's method of placing cores (or better yet, the non-abrasive sponge rubber suggested by Darryl) into the take-up roll at the point you want to make a change was first discussed in the Kodak publication "Film Notes for Reel People", July 1980, H-50-11, figure 12:

http://www.film-tech.com/manuals/H5011.pdf

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 03-08-2004, 12:21 PM:

Wait... SPOOL THE CREDITS ONTO THE FLOOR to change a cue?!?! Goddam, that's dumb.

I had a manager at one of the crappier theaters I worked at tell me to do this and I flipped out like a ninja. A few weeks later, I actually saw an employee standing knee-deep in a pile of film changing a cue when I came in for a shift. The mess was so tangled that they ran the next show without credits. DUMB! DUMB! DUMB! This is just as bad as those idiots who grab one end of a trailer and THROW the roll across the booth to "rewind it quicker."

And Richard, you shouldn't be afraid to tell her in a loud, clear voice, how this DUMB IDEA of changing cues is damaging film. If she says anything to the effect of, "But it's just the credits." Then I give you permission to smack her. Yes, even if she's a woman.

Don't know the brand of our cue detectors off hand, but they use the little "dot" of cue tape that looks like a changeover cue. One for lights, two for shutdown on the right side of the frame. Never had a mis-cue, and they come off surprisingly easy. You DO see them "blip" into the frame on Scope movies, though. Hard to notice in the credits and everyone's gone by the time the shutdown one goes thorugh.

=TMP=

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-08-2004, 12:37 PM:

Sounds like the Kelmar failsafe/cue detector (might also be sold under the "Xetron" name?). Presumably you have the "punch" thing that applies the cues. I liked the concept, and the "punch" tool made the cues super-easy to apply, but the visible cues were annoying. Also, at least with the setup I used, the soundtrack edge of the film had to face the outer edge of the "punch" tool, as the cues covered only the image area, not the soundtrack. It took me a while (and lots of non-working cues) to figure this out.

Posted by Matthew Bailey (Member # 601) on 03-08-2004, 02:42 PM:

aren't you supposed to unspool the reel into a box using a new clean garbage bag simiar to using the wastebasket with a clean bag method when threading leaders as described in one of the Kodak books?

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 03-08-2004, 03:11 PM:

the thing about all these "sounds easy" ideas where the film ends up in a disorderly pile is that, in addition to causing scratches and dirt, they take so much longer than doing it the right way. sure, it's a (minor) hassle to hook up a mut, but the thing is designed to rapidly and neatly move film on and off the platter, which is what you're trying to do.

carl

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-08-2004, 03:46 PM:

The rules of good film handling:

1. Don't let the film get dirty.

2. If the film gets dirty, clean it properly.

3. Don't let the film get scratched.

4. Don't let the film break.

Simple. [Big Grin]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 03-08-2004, 07:05 PM:

quote:
4. Don't let the film break.

Must be after the film pulls some gears out of the projector, then tips the platter over! [Eek!]

On cue detectors:
After cleaning the FM35 detectors that were left at the theatre wae reopened, we've had 100% excellent performance from them. I use about 2 sprockets worth of tape, applied with tweezers, then enough splicing tape to cover the sprockets over the tape. That has prvented any eventual miscues as the application ages. I've had zero trouble with this method.

Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 03-09-2004, 07:34 AM:

Appreciate the help guys

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 03-10-2004, 04:15 PM:

"My manager taught me to just unspool the film on the floor till you get to the tape."

I've asked myself this many times, but I don't think I've ever asked it here, but here goes- Why the fuck is there so much STUPIDITY in this business???
Cue tape that's visible onscreen is film done wrong. Most systems can be adjusted or the cues placed so they don't show up, even if you're looking for them. Those systems that can't should never have been invented. I've refused to go to some theaters because they've consistently ruined the endings of movies with cue tape, and I wouldn't want to work anyplace that required me to do this.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-10-2004, 04:29 PM:

And film on the dirty floor is the epitome of "Film Done WRONG" [thumbsdown]

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 03-11-2004, 03:41 PM:

quote:
Why the fuck is there so much STUPIDITY in this business???

Same reason there is so much stupidity in any business.

Too many people are apathetic about the job their doing, they simply do not give a [bs]

And its encouraged by stupidity at the upper management level, the trickle down effect.

They want to be paid $20.00 per hr and sit on their butt and whine to earn it. I see it everyday in the people I have to hire. NO ONE at home ever taught them the benefits of "a job well done." "Your responsible for yourself".

Mom/Dad is too worried about hurting JR's feelings instead of making him do what was right.

Some are just so stupid they truly do not see the problem with "film done wrong.". Dirt? What dirt?

After a viewing of a film, I sent an email to the home office of a chain based in mid-America, outlining some serious issue's with their projection. That was obviously Caused by stupid "threaders". A far as they knew, I was Joe Average customer. The email response I received was appalling, the head of their projection dept and a district manager basically told me to [fu]

off.

Don't ya know, stupidity rules the world.