Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: EV Tl-880 Vs 4645c JBL

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Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 03-07-2004, 01:47 PM:

Hello,

It's my firts post.

I would like your opinion on those two subwoofer.
if you had the choice, which subwoofer would you put in your theater ?
I listened to 4645c and I was a little above. I expected that at all. One does not have the impression that it go down in frequency.
I never listen for the moment the tl880.
I saw that Tad had left a subwoofer the tsc-1118. George Lucas renovated his Stage theater. It uses only Tad speaker, but I got no more information on his theater.

I listen the c-218 Kcs. For the moment, It's the best. However, kcs isn't highend speaker.

I listen Tl3512 Ev. It's good, but but it is soft.

Thanks
Nico

France

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-07-2004, 06:18 PM:

Hi Nico

I had the chance to hear that subwoofer in two different theaters, both THX. The final result depends of the eq and the acoustic of course. But the JBL didn't impressed me too much. However Steve would say that 4645C has to be configured in B6 setup. I never had the chance to listen 4645C in b6 setup, seems that in Italy no one knows this type of setup for the 4645C.

I heard the TL880D in "step down" mode... Very, VERY impressive!!!! Very Low frequencies!

Bye
A

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-07-2004, 06:26 PM:

Is the TL880D a dual 18" model? I think that's what's in the Regal theater here. They're EV dual somethings for sure, and they sound great. Very effortless, well-articulated, deep bass.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-07-2004, 08:09 PM:

Personally I like the TL880 better than the 4645C. Don't take that as my not saying that the 4645C isn't a damned good subwoofer though. I just feel the TL880 does better at the truly low frequencies.

JBL 4675C-8LF + JBL 8340A + EV TL880 = a fantastic sounding system in most auditoriums.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-07-2004, 08:18 PM:

The TL 880 wins hands down in almost any case and is a real bargain as subs go. I'm normally not biased but this one is very easy.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-07-2004, 08:26 PM:

I'd agree with all, the 4645C is a fine sub, but the TL880 wins in nearly every case, or at least used to.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-07-2004, 08:53 PM:

I recently have installed a bunch of TL-880Ds and something is wrong in the current version. I think (actually I know) EV has mucked around with the EVX-180 driver that fires them...the TL-880 sucks right now and I dunno why because it didn't use to be that way. It really lacks bottom end.

I've tried them recently even in THX rooms sunk in the THX wall...and I mean they were pretty bad. No real bottom end. Even though they were phase checked (driver by driver)...I went down and rechecked them.

I have one array of five of them in a room that is about 100' x 55' and you'd think they would have just rocked...nope.

Now I've tried this over several auditoriums within the last couple of years...all with nearly identical results regardless of THX wall or not.

Now as to the JBL 4645C with the B-6 tuning (right you are Antonio)...I've NEVER had a bad set up. They are ruler flat down to 20Hz....just how low do you want to go? Remember, too that you can combine them...with my biggest array being 8 of them...they will make your pants leg flap.

As to drivers...that has NEVER been a close comparison...the JBL 2242 as used in the 4645B or 4645C has always spanked the EVX-180B (as used in the TL 440 or TL 880D). The build quality of the JBL is far better and the overall design of the driver is far better. The 2242 is an 800-watt continious PINK NOISE rated driver as opposed to a 500-watt EVX-180. The bottom end response and smoothness also goes to the JBL.

So, in 2003 and beyond...it isn't a close call, the JBL 4645C is about as good as you are going to find and easily goes down to 20Hz flat (with B-6 tuning...if you use QSC amps, check out the SF-3 module...DCM monitors also have a setting, failing that the Radio Design Labs makes a "stick on" [ST-CX1S] filter for it and then there are all the other ways of achieving the filter in analog or DSP).

http://www.rdlnet.com/st-cx1s.htm

So my vote is certainly the 4645C. For value, the 4641 is almost free but uses an inferior driver the 2241. The 4642A is a great bang for the buck but lacks the extra bottom and smoothness of the 4645C.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 03-08-2004, 10:51 AM:

Hello Antonio Marcheselli ,

I have already to speak with you on your forum on this subject. I do not know if you remember me (Faulken)? You say to me that you preferred the tl880.

Hello David Stambaugh,

I forgot to say for the comparison that they was two 4645c Vs tl880, it is more logical. Excuse me. [Wink]

Hello Brad Miller,

"JBL 4675C-8LF + JBL 8340A + EV TL880 = a fantastic sounding system in most auditoriums"
Splendid your theater ! that makes me much think of the installation of the Dolby room, your theater.
I am not happy after Jbl since they replaced wood by the plastic on the 8340a. is the sound it very different from version 8340?

I had installed two 4647a. I resold because that did not go down at all. I had been very above sound of the 2226h.
15 " of my frontal enclosures have a frequency resonance of 27 Hz. Added sub with Fs of 35 Hz does not appear at all coherent to me. I want to be able to also use the sub in stereo listening. It's for my private theater.
I had information of the distributors Tad in France that the tl-1801 do not go very well.
much private individual in France uses two 4645c for their homecinema. Some said to me that in stereophony it was not brilliant. but I think that they use it badly.

Thank you with all for your answers. [thumbsup]

Nicolas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-08-2004, 05:21 PM:

Hi Faulken
Yes, I remember you.

Steve,

What a pity! When I worked for the theater that had 4645C we asked JBL in every way but noone replied us about B6 for the 4645C...

I really would like to hear a 4645C array with B6 setup. At the moment the lowest SW I heard are the 880D but seems that things are changed...

Bye
A

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 03-09-2004, 01:22 PM:

Hello Antonio,

I go to rehear the 4645c in step a long time. In one of most beautiful the Parisian theater, Gaumont Aquaboulevard (n°1).

I hope that there will be an action movie. If I can, I would make photo with a detail of the room.

This theater got a tri-dlp Barco ..... [Smile]

The frontal speaker are the big 5674 Jbl with C-audio amplifier + dcs260. Four 4645c use for 500 seats. The sound are [thumbsup]

but the sub hummm.... not convinced.

+
Nicolas

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 03-09-2004, 09:32 PM:

So what would you do if the subs don't perform like they should? Do you send them back to the manufacturer?

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 03-11-2004, 02:09 PM:

Hello everybody,

I am surprised to have if little answer. I want a ultimate subwoofer. Then which subs to choose which goes as well in movie and hifi ?

Thanks

Nicolas who cannot any more what take

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 03-14-2004, 03:37 AM:

still not of response for the ultimate sub [Frown]

it is a pity which one cannot make a vote on this forum.

+
Nicolas

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 03-14-2004, 04:52 AM:

Not necessarily cinema subs, but the specs do sound good.

Servodrive BassTech 7
BGW M2200i
Turbosound TSW-124

There also was a post awhile ago about a sub " chamber " built into the floor of a building with multiple drivers.

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 03-14-2004, 07:57 AM:

Royal Device is a sub builded by a friend of mine here in Italy!!

The "Filarmonico" theater in Italy has a horned subwoofer, 17 meters long made with briks!

Check on Outline website (I do not knoe where exactly).

Bye
A

Posted by Oliver Pasch (Member # 1335) on 03-16-2004, 06:06 AM:

Cher Nicolas,

if you're asking for the ultimate (but affordable / reasonable) subwoofer, i'd suggest to check out this one:
http://www.krix.com/kx4610.htm
We've bought some of them during the last years from Kinoton in Germany and believe me, you will never want to think of the tiny JBL-box again...

3 of them are installed in our large auditorium (500 seats) in Aarhus / Denmark, the stadium seating is a construction with a floor of wood, this installation kicks a**!

Just one important thing: you'll need very solid amplification power to drive this one, as this one goes down below 4 Ohm in the concerned frequency range.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-16-2004, 06:33 AM:

And yet...a properly installed set of JBL 4645C goes even lower in frequency and puts out more power. I've yet to not have the 4645C (or B) out perform most any other system. If you don't complete the design with a B-6 filter, you haven't heard what the JBL system can do.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 04-26-2004, 04:41 PM:

Hello

I the post starts again. I have recentely listen to subwoofer with 2245h. I was very disappointed result. that brews wind but it is all.
I do not find any quality with this speaker. There is no pallet of sound. It is one will infra mono. On/off

This speaker is used in the box of the jbl synthesis. I ever knew which speaker is used in the sub synthesis. It look like 2242 but it dosen't sound 2242.

+
Nico

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-26-2004, 05:00 PM:

The 2245H is an older driver. It has a lower frequency response than the 2242 or most other 18" drivers but at the price it can't handle as much power.

As to the driver...it is all in the box that it is in. The original 4518 cabinet (no suffix) is the one that JBL issued the 2245 in. It was not the best enclosure as it was too small. I believe the 2245H performed its best in a 12 cu. ft. enclosure and the 4518 was an 8 cu. ft. For the home, it was the B460 subwoofer and it had a 9 cu.ft. enclosure.

2242H is a much more powerful driver but it will not go as low due to its suspension.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 04-27-2004, 01:24 PM:

Hello Steve Guttag,

The box use with the 2245 is the original 4645. There were 4 box. But the result was not there. I could listen to very many times the system synthesis Jbl which use components professional (Vertex speaker).
And I doesn't understand why that never goes as it is necessary !
I now that the 2245 is used in the Clairbros S4 during few years after 2241 ...

I think that one does not have the same vision of the sound reproduction in France. [Razz]

For the moment I have very a big preference for the Kcs c218. And yet I am a fan of jbl [Confused]

I listened to not badly system Imax (sonicsound). The medium high is very good but the infra..... hummm
I know that they used jbl and ev speaker but now I do not know what there is.
I see that you often advise Jbl. Is what you work at Jbl ? [beer]

+
Nicolas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-06-2004, 05:58 PM:

I had chance to hear both model of KCS, 118 and 218. I can say that they cannot challenge with JBL or EV (at least the EV I've heard!).

Martin Audio cinema subs are much better than KCS, and array of 6 Martin outperforms an array of 5 (dual driver) of KCS 218...

Unfortunately the final results depends too much from equalization, acoustic and general setup.

Bye
A

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-06-2004, 08:23 PM:

I didn't see the post above when it first came out.

I do not work for JBL but often recommend them when they are the best solution. As drivers go, JBL is definately one of the best.

Their CD horns are also quite good. I also recommend Altec and I don't work for them either.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-07-2004, 11:06 AM:

Hello Antonio,

Ok you listened to Kcs. You prefer Tl880, therefore?

I listen the 4645c but I think a lot, in bad condition.
A friend has just ordered a 4645c. But he did not think of the B6 correction. The problem it is that one does not have an spectrum analyzer. that will be hard to regulate.
He did not receive it yet. I hold everyone with the current as soon as the first tests are carried out. Your favorite sub for this moment ?

Hello Steve Gutag,

my questions should not be taken badly [Wink]

. In French forum people do not stop saying good of a product. Because in made these people there sell this product of exclusiveness. Much one bought the product which with final is very bad. Thus I am wary much.

but it is very pleasant of your share to answer me. And your answers are a mine of information.

In this moment thus the 4645c is best the subwoofer any mark confused? Have a classification of your favorite subwoofers ?
The best amplification for the 4645 is ?

Thank you very very much. [beer]

JALABERT Nicolas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-07-2004, 12:37 PM:

Hi nicolas

KCS subs does not go VERY deep. They have a VERY limited frequency responce.
Nicolas, what is the primary use of the subwoofer you're searching? Cinema, home theater or hi-fi?
For an hi-fi enviroment a subwoofer with very low deep end perhaps is inappropriate. A very low frequency subwoofer can sound too invasive with hi-fi music. Since KCS are more limited in low deep end perhaps they seem to sound better.
Remember that 4645C and TL880D are listed in CINEMA speakers. If you check others JBL subwoofers they usually do not have the cinema's subs low end.

Let us know what you found with your 4645C. Perhaps I'll have the chance to test a 4645C in my home theater room. Actually I have a 4688 and it sounds great, I will try a 4645C in B6 setup...

Bye
A

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-07-2004, 02:32 PM:

Hello Antonio,

I know that kcs sub dosen't go very deep. I think this is what I like them.
They are very fast in times response with very large impacts and massive. I did not have to like at all the tl3512 Ev because of their moless of their slowness. I had as noted as the cases of the tl3512 was very light in construction. But in against part they go down without problem much low than the model c118 of Kcs.

One needs that I order St-cx1s Radio Design Labs, for using the 4645c. well But I do not find a distributor in France. I must thus order it in Usa. But where?!

I repeat it, the sub will have as well walked in hifi as in home cinema.

+
JALABERT Nicolas

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-07-2004, 02:48 PM:

Nicolas
In cinema's soundtrack the LFE channel is mainly intended for Very Low frequency effects. Each mixers has his own preferences of course but usually the SW channel is used mainly for explosions and effects like that and the other bass frequencies are left to stage channels (again: it depends to the mixer!).
If you put a cinema subwoofer that go down to 20Hz in a hi-fi enviroment probably the low end will result too much present and not controlled. But hear this sub with "Star Wars" and you will hear the difference!

On the pdf of Tl880D EV suggest to use B6 alignment (step-down) only for cinema application for example.

Question: can be a good idea to have an equalizer with a double setting flat for Cinema application and cut on very low frequencies (35Hz?) for hi-fi applications? Just an idea.

Bye
A

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-07-2004, 03:22 PM:

Antonio,

I try with 15" subwoofer that go very deep. On Star Wars this is not good. that brews air but it is just like the 2245h. There is no effect of massive like Kcs. I try do see the thiel & small parameter result of that bad sound. I am in a hurry to listen to the 4645c.

I have broad a enough budget for the subwoofer.

Bye
Nicolas

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2004, 10:18 PM:

The TL-3512 shouldn't even be listed as a subwoofer. It is nothing more than an ordinary LF driver in an LF enclosure. It used the DL-18W woofer which was nothing more than and 18" version the DL-15W woofer as used in the TL-606 dual 15" base cabinet (used in the TS-940 and TS-9040 systems).

Before the EVX-180 was mucked with, I'd say in that cabinet sixe you would be better served by the the TL440.

As to the ST-CX1S...I know we have them in stock at the moment (dont forget the PS-24A power cube when getting one).

If you use QSC amplifiers, they offer a "sub filter" module for most of their amplifier lines that also as a preset B-6 filter.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-08-2004, 03:17 AM:

Hello Steve Guttag,

I don't understand "Before the EVX-180 was mucked with" ? (mucked) I'm not very good in english. I don't find the traduction of the world muck. [Frown]

You sell the module ctx. Would have a bond of your site of sale? Send you for France ?

For you the BEST subwoofer for use also in hifi mode or home cinema is the 4645c ?

Thanks

JALABERT Nicolas

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-10-2004, 12:36 PM:

hello,

Always no response Steve Guttag ?

Bye

Nicolas

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 06-10-2004, 01:34 PM:

I think what Steve was saying Nicolas is that Electrovoice changed something in their EVX-180 18" driver, and that it doesn't perform as it once did.

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-10-2004, 02:14 PM:

Ok thanks Ron,

thus the 4645c is best subwoofer for the moment. I repeat it I do not have any budgetary limit I specify. [thumbsup]

does nobody have experience with the subwoof Tad Tl-1118 ?

JALABERT Nicolas

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-11-2004, 06:31 AM:

Yes, the EVX-180, the driver used in the TL-880 has been changed several times in recent years. I can't think of any other reason for the poor response I've measured and heard of recent TL-880Ds (they should have changed the suffix letter when they changed anything with the system anyway...it is deceptive).

We do sell the CX1S but not generally overseas...I can look into it though.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-11-2004, 09:55 AM:

Hello Steve guttag,

the cs1x is it only solution for me which do not have an amplifier qsc crown. I got Hafler amp. If you know a salesman in Europe, known as it me.
The best frontal speaker than you have listen install are which ???
For surround 8340a are they better than 8330a ?

Thanks

Nicolas

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-11-2004, 10:59 AM:

First off, there is no such thing as a "best speaker" since everyone has different opinions on what is best.

From the JBL line, the best bang for the buck remains the JBL 4675C-4LF (or the 4675C-8LF). Their 5000 series speakers, like the 5674 are considered JBL's best cinema speakers but they are 3-ways.

As to surrounds, the 8340a is not necessarily better than the 8330a. The 8340a is more efficient and has more power handling and is suited to larger rooms. The 8330a is a flatter response speaker but does not have the power handling or the efficientcy of the 8340a. Which is the better choice depends on the room.

Steve

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-11-2004, 11:17 AM:

Hello Steve Guttag,

well on that depends on the people for the choice of best the sub. Me I want a sub which as well as possible retranscribes the music, Net and square. I see that some guy use the 4645c for triphonique speaker system !

According to you the 8330a are adapted better for home cinema of low size than the 8340a ?
what poses problem to me on the 8330a it is the alignement of the speakers. They are not aligned on the vertical axis. I always noticed a bad dispersion of the sound of surround when this type of enclosure is used in cinema.

JALABERT Nicolas

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2004, 09:42 PM:

"Which is the better choice depends on the room."

Another thing to interject here is that it is not just the room that is the absolute deciding factor but it is also somewhat dictated by the available budget. One might have the budget to properly cover a room with say 12 8340a's and necessary amplification, however a better sounding and probably flatter response surround system might be had in that same room using many more 8330a's and more amplifier channels to drive them... but at alot more cost.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-13-2004, 12:39 PM:

Hello

I would like to know since how long there a reduction in quality on the EVX180B?

I am obstinate but I do not find absolutely logical to put a subwoofer with a speaker who got a Fs of 35 hz with speaker in frontal enclosure which have Fs of 27 Hz!!!!????

Nico

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-15-2004, 02:16 PM:

Hello,

Nobody answers me, I am sad.

Thanks

Nico

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-16-2004, 12:55 PM:

Hello

always no reply

Nico

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-16-2004, 04:20 PM:

At least I will say Bon Jour! [Smile]

Posted by Nicolas Jalabert (Member # 2258) on 06-16-2004, 04:31 PM:

Hello John,

thanks you [Wink]

Well I always not resolve my problem.

I believed while coming on this forum that some fitter would have listened to all the existing sound material.
But in made that does not have the surface to be the case. Marks as Jbl have the surface to have the monopoly in the USA. My best memories with the cinema were not often equipped in jbl, far from there !
In France little cinema is equipped in EV. There is much Kcs due at their price much weaker. But the sound is far from being so bad.
I had the occasion of listened to the 4645c and for the moment I am skeptic on his qualities. Much on this forum one it air of preferred with the tl880.

+
Nico

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-16-2004, 05:17 PM:

quote: Nicolas Jalabert
There is much Kcs due at their price much weaker. But the sound is far from being so bad.

Nicholas

I can't agree!!! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-16-2004, 06:54 PM:

We have used KCS in several installs with no complaints they just are not as powerfull as the JBL

Posted by Antonio Marcheselli (Member # 373) on 06-17-2004, 03:30 PM:

I remember that Richard doesn't agree with me too.

The High frequency of KCS are not acceptable for me and the low frequencies of the KCS subs are not comparable with JBL, EV (before steve's bad news!) or Martin.

This is my opinion of course!

Bye
A