Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton FP30E Intermittent problem.

This is topic Kinoton FP30E Intermittent problem. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-17-2004, 01:35 AM:

Hello all again,
We seem to be having a problem with a complex here in Cyprus which was finished by the end of 2001 and it's the first in Cyprus to have installed KINOTON projectors and we recomended installing the FP30E. We had a problem with an intermittent drive before on a different screen and they send as a replacement with no COST. What the problem is is that the cross does not move like it should be. Its bouncing forwards, fast then slow then fast again then faster then slowerer and we can't have a show run. The projetionist mentioned that he tried it with no Film on the projector and still the same thing happened. This unit is the BRAND NEW which was send as a replacement. It is very strange that this has happened. Any ideas what the problem might be? Will they need another replacement of the whole unit?? If so then the owner will be very displeased of these projectors and we said to him that they are the best in the market and problem free. He insisted on installing Cinemeccanica and we recomended Kinoton and we mentioned that they worth their money. So Any ideas? I even asked the projectionist if film was stucked on the machine and cased the intermittent to forcefully pull the film and he mentioned no. Do you think is a programming problem?? I will probably visit the site today but I thought maybe you guys some have idea.
Thanks in advance
Demetris

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-17-2004, 03:00 AM:

The program parameters are stored in the ac amplifier which is the black box just above and to the left of the main board inside the projector door. You can easily exchange it with the same unit from an other projector to verify if it is this unit which causes the problems. Provided that the replacement movement was installed properly of course and that the continuous movement sprockets are turning regularly.

You fail to let us know what was wrong before and why you received the replacement. Did the replacement work at first and then start to fail? Questions like these are very important to isolate the problem.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-17-2004, 12:31 PM:

Ok Michael,
I have visited the site. The problem YES was the same before. We got a replacement Intermittent motor and an MDE board. After I changed it the problem stoped. Now after three months, the same appeared on the new units that the site was sent. I tried with the software but no luck. I tried exchanging the MDE board with another projector which had the same. The other projector worked fine aftewards which means that the MDE board is OK. The projector of Screen 3 (which had the problem) still has the same problem. On the Kinoton software for intermittent allingment I could not get a reading for Phasing on that specific projector. My conclusion is that the motor is defective although I did not had the chance to exchange it with another. I have already ordered a replacement and another NEW one to have in stock because as I mentioned this problem occured before again. When it comes I will go and replace it again and I will keep you informed. If anyone has any ideas please share with us. Has anyone else experience the same problems? We are talking about the Kinoton 30E projector
Thanks
Demetris

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-17-2004, 03:07 PM:

As expensive and tricky to work on as these macines are I am surprised that Kinoton doesn't send a tech out to you right from the factory to take care of it. With the multiple problems you seem to be having it certainly warrants their attention so they don't develope a bad reputation before they have a good foot hold in that part of the world.

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-18-2004, 02:49 AM:

Well Mark,
An experienced projectionist, a well based cinema technician and an open minded computer geek!! will surely be able to face the problems with these machines. I believe the problem wtih the motors here in Cyprus is the Power provided by the Government. We never have a stable current. Another complex installed Christie Projectors and the motors keep blowing. So I don't believe that the machines are deffective. I have asked other people not from Cyprus who have installed these machines in various sites in Europe and they have mentioned that these machines are problem free.
Well. Maybe we can install UPS for supplying 230V to the Projectors (BIG UPS).
On the other hand. I have always loved Cinemeccanica. Problem free projectors [Smile]

See ya guys
Demetris

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-18-2004, 03:28 AM:

No machine is absolutely problem free. However, it is true you generally have far less problems and more fun with these machines. Yes, if you know you have power stability problems, do yourself a favor and install the power supplies. After all, you invested a lot of money in these machines, so protect your investment.
Kalinixta apo tin Kalifornia!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-18-2004, 04:28 AM:

So Michael you speak greek????
Kalimera apo tin Kypro!!! If you know what that means [Smile]

Well, I did not invest any money! The cinema that bought the machines did. I am only serving them as a technician since my company is the only one in Cyprus who provides technical support. I have been in the business since 5 years old. I remember I liked to help my father (we used carbon arcs back then ) in allinging the carbons as the film was showing. Now those were the days. Now everything is automatic until they stop working. Unfortunately new projectionists PANIC when something goes wrong and something is not working. Anyway. I am waiting for the replacement. I will keep you in touch.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 03-18-2004, 02:14 PM:

Supplying squared wave AC from a UPS is definitely not what you want to do. A power conditioner would be far more effective, and realistic. [Smile]

If harmonics are causing problems Square D's ReactiVar family of Power factor Correction and Harmonic Filtering Equipment will help.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-18-2004, 06:45 PM:

"I believe the problem wtih the motors here in Cyprus is the Power provided by the Government. We never have a stable current."
______________________________________________________________

Because the power supply is often the most expensive part of any manufactured piece of equipment many manufacturers will skimp on the power supply section in a given piece of equipment they end up producing. So, I would certainly question the quality of the regulated supplies that are in the Kinoton projector first off. It sounds to me like they may be somewhat inadaquate at withstanding power spikes and dips. AC Harmonics and other related AC mains problems, unless of long high level duration should not affect a well designed regulated power supply at all...the supply should be designed to adaquately supply power to a circuit of this nature for at least a couple of seconds during a power dip before the regulators shut down. A short duration spike of say three times normal mains AC also should also not affect operation of it and there are very inexpensive devices that can be incorporated into power supplies to deal with spikes. As for rejection of long duration dips, its simply a matter of enough power supply capacitance(expensive!)to get through a short duration mains dip.

You can also install a surge protection device on the main AC feed into your building across all three phases. If the power over there is that bad then I would do that even if you do install the Italian machines.... you need to protect all your sound gear too!

We spec out large surge superssors at mains supplly panels in every new complex we design and install. We have one customer that has an 8 plex south of Salt Lake City which is also part of a museum complex and they have terrible power surges down there all the time. One day while we were finishing up the last booth, the others had already opened and were running, there was a bad surge that shut down and damaged the 15/70 system at the Museum and caused alot of damage to the solid state motor controlers that run the projectors, but next door we were not even aware there was a power bump....saved by the surge superssor! Since then the museum has installed both surge protection on their mains comming into the museum, and a complete UPS to run the 15/70 system for the duration of an average 45 minute film.

Regarding the Christie projectors...

They can also install very inexpensive surge protection equipment at each machine or at their mains panel. Unfortunately, another problem is that the Bodine motors are not nearly as good as they used to be....Strong quit using that type of motor and switched to another manufacturer.....end of problems!

You should also check with the local power supplier and see if they would temporarily install a power monitor or chart recorder at your location so you can definately check out the quality of the AC mains.

Here is a link to a typical surge panel we use on occasion.
http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/spd/57000series.pdf

Mark @ CLACO

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-18-2004, 08:24 PM:

Hubell also makes excellent pannel mounted noise and spike suppressor
www.hubbell-wiring.com/library/ pressreleases/hub98082.pdf

http://www.hubbell-canada.com/whitePapers/wiring/whitewpscole1200.asp

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 03-19-2004, 02:01 AM:

Demetri, physika milao ta ellinika gia ti eimouna mazi me mia ellinitha (apo ti Naxo) gia pente chronia pou douleve kai san daskalas ellinikon...Imouna kai stin Ellatha polles fores, peripou dekapente fores stin Athina kai stin Naxo.