This is topic Technicolor to stop using reel bands in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-08-2004, 12:08 PM:
 
Just got this fax from Technicolor.

Attention: Theatre Managers and Projectionists

Technicolor will no longer be using reel bands to secure prints, and will instead use a specialized tape which has become the industry standard.
This change will be effective in mid-June.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-08-2004, 12:14 PM:
 
This is probably thanks to all the idiots who couldn't be bothered to reattach the reel bands properly when shipping out prints.
 

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Posted by Erica Peterson (Member # 1784) on 04-08-2004, 12:16 PM:
 
Has anybody seen the new "industry standard" tape? Does it cover and protect the same surface area as a reel band?
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 04-08-2004, 12:22 PM:
 
Would the new tape be able to be used to tape the other end of the head or tail without leaving residue from regular tape, or having to put a one-sided splice that has to be peeled off later.
 

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Posted by Erica Peterson (Member # 1784) on 04-08-2004, 12:25 PM:
 
I just talked to Technicolor Customer Service. They said this is a "cost-effective thing" and that it will just be a little piece of white tape, similar to what is often used now to tape the end of the film to the reel band. It will begin when their current inventory of reel bands is depleted, which they estimate as mid-June.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 04-08-2004, 01:03 PM:
 
Well it is about time. I have never had damge on an ETS print because it didn't have a paper band around it. I dont see how they really help with anything, especially considering that half of the time the bands come loose in the cans.

If you ask me the paper bands are one of those "we care enough to make it look like we care when we really dont" kind of things. It would be much more effective to just not have the cardboard liners in the cans, they are the cause of most of the dirt inside the can anyway.
 

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Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 04-08-2004, 01:11 PM:
 
The original "old" style reel bands that were in use up until the 1980's were great, made out of a thick paper material and strong rivets for the string. They were ideal for reuse without leaving any sticky tape residue on the film. The new reel bands that are in use today are junk, we are better off without them.

/Mitchell
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-08-2004, 01:26 PM:
 
I liked the reel bands years ago when they were made with better quality. Strings were better and the fasteners didn't fall off when you tried to re-attach them. They also wrote the information in the places it was supposed to go. Now they just put the bands on there and slap a sticker on it that is usually placed over the end of the bands were the string attaches and laps over the side touching the edges of the film leaving sticky goo on the edges. In my opinion if you can't use the bands the way they were supposed to be used then good ridence to them all.
 

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-08-2004, 01:29 PM:
 
Are paper reel bands acid free? I can imagine that deteriorating paper would off-gas and cause the film to deteriorate faster. Or, are they supposed to be taken off when the film is in storage?

I guess it would be a "Hobson's Choice", no?
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 04-08-2004, 01:30 PM:
 
I recently found an old damaged reel of Ice Pirates in our storage room. It had an older reel band around it, and it was still in pretty good condition.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-08-2004, 01:32 PM:
 
Chris and Mitchell, obviously you guys have yet to see the latest type of TES reel bands. They are actually better than the old style cardboard bands (they're made from a better quality of paper) and the string is nice and thick just like the old style.

Since they started using these newer bands, the problem of film falling off the reels in shipments has disappeared, at least for us. Going back to a "little piece of tape" is a recipe for disaster. The piece of tape will be good for ONE use and after that the film will be cascading all over the place, just like it used to, because people will be too lazy/cheap/stupid to put a new, LONG piece of tape on.

This is bad news. Just when I thought TES was actually listening to the film community, they have proved me wrong.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-08-2004, 01:40 PM:
 
Good. It will save us from taking the trash out of the booth more often.

Honestly, I didn't see the point of them anyway. Most of the time, the leader was taped to the reel band anyway leaving the catastrophic "sticky residue" that the customers will see when you project the leader.

Or better yet, the bands carefully and meticulously protected the oil-soaked, masking taped and emulsion scratched print, (Integrity Inspected, of course) when it was shipped to sub-run theaters. I began to think they put new reel bands on to actually make you think, "Hey! We got a decent print for once."

Now if we can get DTS to quit sending discs in shattered DVD cases and go back to the strong half-reels, we'll be set.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 04-08-2004, 07:27 PM:
 
This news doesn't bother me in the least. Just today I received one of those precious orange cans with the string hanging out. Sure enough, upon opening it up I discovered those strings had been torn off the bands.

On another print, one of the bands was placed on backwards (print side down) and fastened with tape. That's not the first time it's happened, either. Obviously, some of the folks who ship these prints don't give a as long as they get the job done fast.

I've also had instances where the string is run through the core.

What's the sence in having reel bands if they come damaged on brand new prints?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-08-2004, 07:47 PM:
 
I've always hated the TES reel bands. This is a good thing.[av=v]
 

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Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 04-08-2004, 10:33 PM:
 
Remember when UA did this years ago? The "tape" was a sheet of labels that didn't stick well anyway, so I refused to waste my time with them. Everyone just stuck the reels back in the can with nothing on them.

I agree, the Technicolor bands were too thin, they were made of the wrong material, and the strings were just useless thread -- what were they thinking?!
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-09-2004, 12:43 AM:
 
Good Riddance! These things are a hold over from the days before tape and no longer have a function. Never were intended to protect anything--at best, what could they protect, the outer 3 feet of the leader, and from what, the inside of the can.

Useless as they are though, I put 'em back on when they're present, they're not mine so it's not my place to toss 'em.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-09-2004, 01:19 AM:
 
another thing they like to do is put the bands on the reels and not even lable them with a reel number or anything. You have to pull all the bands until you find the first real. Had that problem today. Ets prints were like ok reel one all heads or all tails or mixed up no surprises when you take the bands off because they don't use them.
 

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Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 04-09-2004, 08:55 AM:
 
Since Technicolor has decided to get rid of them anyway when their stock is depleted, I suggest everyone start throwing them away at this point, thus forcing them to use new ones every time a print is shipped back and "integrity *cough* inspected."

Let's all help them deplete their stock as fast as possible and be rid of these damn things.
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-09-2004, 12:46 PM:
 
I always like the cloth bands that were issued by the Ontario Censor board as the censor approval certificate (hence the local phrase censor bands)They were indistructable and did a good job protecting the film
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-09-2004, 01:02 PM:
 
I get the feeling that most of the anti-band comments in this thread are from people who deal mostly with new prints. I think you would be singing a different tune if you got a few used prints with the film spilling all over the place due to non-taped-down ends, broken reels, extra space in the cans because all the trailers are removed, etc. At least the bands WHEN PUT ON PROPERLY keep the film together.
 

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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-09-2004, 02:20 PM:
 
Since the reel bands are gone, will it be possible to have reels with full-length leaders as specified in SMPTE 301?

Protective section, what's that? We're lucky if a reel has 15 feet of leader before the first frame of image.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-09-2004, 02:56 PM:
 
SMPTE 301:

quote:

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Head leader (see figure 1)
5.1 Protective section (head)
The protective section of the leader shall consist of a
minimum of 8 linear feet (2.44 m) of transparent or raw
stock. When the protective leader has been reduced
to a length of 6 linear feet (1.83 m), it shall be restored
to its original length. Logos, trademarks, part titles, or
other extraneous materials, if absolutely necessary,
should be placed in this section.

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quote:

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7.4 Protective section (tail)
The protective section of the trailer shall consist of a
minimum of 8 linear feet (2.44 m) of transparent or raw
stock. When the protective leader has been reduced
to a length of 6 linear feet (1.83 m), it shall be restored
to its original length. Logos, trademarks, part titles, or
other extraneous materials, if absolutely necessary,
should be placed in this section.

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This is IN ADDITION to the identification and syncronizing (countdown) and runout sections of the leaders.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-09-2004, 03:07 PM:
 
The problem with eliminating the reel bands is that most people are too stupid or careless (your choice) to understand that you can't put a 1 inch piece of tape on the leader and expect it to stick after Airborne kicks the cans across the country. Even worse are the morons who reuse an existing piece of tape and think that it will hold. So by the time the prints get back to the depot, the leaders are unraveled, probably in between various reels and with the current state of reels falling apart and people using cheap platters that does not produce a proper tight wind of the print, a big ol' pile of film spaghetti is found when the cans are opened.

The reel bands should stay, but NOT the ones TES is currently sending out. Those are amazingly bad, as the slightest tug of the string pops the catch off of the band, which defeats the purpose.

Regardless TES has apparently decided to be done with the reel bands. As such the question remains, will they put their identification sticker over the end of the leader as a means to secure the roll, or will they use a piece of Artist's tape for that and put the id sticker 6 inches away so that it is preserved with the print for repeated shipouts?
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 04-09-2004, 06:24 PM:
 
Bottom line is that there is a right and wrong way to fasten reel bands. My big gripe is that apparently TES has some employees who simply don't know what they are doing. I had a print come in a couple of weeks back with the reel identifier tape plastered over the fastener and no string whatsoever attached to the fastener.

Other abnormalities abound, as described by others in this post.

I can understand Mike Blakesley's point about getting used prints that are improperly secured. That is simply film done wrong. Many operators do not know how to properly re-attach the bands, or just don't give a
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 04-09-2004, 08:19 PM:
 
I'm sure this has everything to do with cost, not just the cost of the bands but the labor it costs to put them around reels. It might not seem like much but shaving off a few seconds can add up when dealing with thousands of prints. This next part is PURE speculation but TES also lost a big customer in January-Sony. I've heard rumors on this board of Mirimax ready to make the jumpt to ETS next. I think TES is trying to 'stay competitive.'

Oh, and 'industry stnadard tap'? They probably mean the tape the labs use when they ship the reels to the depots. If you look at a TES reel after you take the paper band off you'll notice the peice of tape that originaly held down the leader until it was borke to add the paper band. I've also noticed that at least on some TES prints there are the ID stickers on the leaders that all ETS prints have-I assume these are put on by the labs.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-09-2004, 08:53 PM:
 
The labs often use stickers with numbers and bar codes to help track prints and individual reels through lab operations. Usually put on at the wind-up end of the print processing machines. If you have a print problem, the information on this label can often pinpoint all the machines and people that handled the reel to aid in diagnosing the problem.

Note, Kodak's magenta-colored edgeprint serves the same function for Kodak's manufacturing process:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h1/sizesP.shtml#p

quote:

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A description of the identifying codes on tape, can label, and film appears under FILM IDENTIFICATION.

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quote:

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The twelve-digit code on the label in Figure 45 (5289-489-02101) identifies the film type (5289), the emulsion batch number (489), the roll number and the part of the roll (02101) from which this strip of KODAK VISION 800T Color Negative Film was cut. When an emulsion batch is put together, it is quite large -- too large to be coated onto only one roll of film base. Therefore, it is necessary to coat more than one roll, and all subsequent rolls are numbered in sequential order. So, in this case, the first three digits identify the roll number of this particular emulsion batch. The last two digits identify the roll part. If one roll is coated onto a 6000-foot master roll, each strip can be cut into many individual parts. As an example, the 6000 feet can be cut into three 2,000-foot rolls--part 1, 2, and 3.

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quote:

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Good. It will save us from taking the trash out of the booth more often

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A show of hands please for anyone who would actually want Thomas working for them (keep in mind also his comments about customer relations and management/staff relations).

A band is the only thing that is certain to keep the film from spilling. Even good tape is not 100% successful and how many theatres even buy it. Most use masking tape and its inappropriateness has been discussed at length elsewhere. I can't say as I blame TES for getting rid of bands since too many lazy bozos either cut the strings or toss them out entirely. I've found that even a band without a string, taped to itself, holds better than the film taped down to itself. So while it's less work without them (and isn't that what this alleged "craft" has come down to--anything to save 5 seconds here, 30 seconds there) the result will inevitably be more splayed out reels.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-10-2004, 11:49 AM:
 
Perhaps durable bands could be made out of thick and stiff 35mm polyester leader:

http://www.fpchollywood.com/film-leaders-lab-processing-machine-leaders-blue-polyester-leaders.html

With a rivet and eyelet and some nylon twine, a band made of 7-mil 35mm polyester leader would be a very durable item.

The other possibility would be using the very stiff 35mm perforated polyester leader and splicing it onto the head leader as the protective section specified in SMPTE 301.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 04-10-2004, 12:04 PM:
 
I can't remember ever getting a NEW ETS print that the reels were spilling out. I have received used prints like this. I have recieved NEW TES prints that the reel were spilling out. So, I think that any film damage that occurs will be due to poor film handling and not due to whether they used bands or tape.
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-10-2004, 01:44 PM:
 
here is the situation when it comes to TES and ETS.

TES=break film down on thursday night so it can go out either at midnight because sky courier showed up to get it or goes out Friday for Airbourne/DHL pick-ups. Big theaters many screens many prints equals rush job nobody caring as much as they should to do it properly.

ETS=Break down thursday night if you need to for a pick-up otherwise hold and break down on another day until the films are picked up on the next print delivery date. In most not all situations more time is available so people tend to care a little more and do it right.

I never liked the idea that TES has the prints picked up the following day when they could just as easily be picked up on the following monday and get to their next destination with plenty of time.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-10-2004, 05:12 PM:
 
Good point. the RUSH RUSH RUSH mentality of TES does not allow for the best job to be done in all cases. This has also been discussed before. TES knows this, but they really don't care. Hell, it's one of their selling points to the studios for their service![av=p]
 

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Posted by Joop de Gruiter (Member # 84) on 04-10-2004, 05:36 PM:
 
Working in Sweden I've never seen a reel band. Can anyone post a picture of what it looks like?
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 04-10-2004, 09:37 PM:
 
Ask and ye shall receive, subject to availability...

The entire band, about 51 inches (129.6 centimetres) long with a 42" (106.7 cm)-long string...



Closeups...



Spaces are included for distribution branch, print number, release number, title, number of reels, and reel number. Since the band dates from the acetate days, it includes a reminder to "please allow 15 seconds for splices to set." (That's cement splices. The advisory persisted long after tape splices became the standard.) The last block of text reads, "Do not rewind after last showing. Please place this band on proper reel and securely fasten" (an artifact from the days of changeovers).

A banded shipping reel...



(Edited to spin off the question regarding length of tape to fasten the end of the film)

[ 04-12-2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Jon Miller ]
 

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Posted by Steve Anderson (Member # 364) on 04-11-2004, 09:10 AM:
 
Wow! no film bands....how will we cope
 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 04-11-2004, 02:14 PM:
 
Jon,

Is that band missing some length? I think I see some uncovered film on that reel.

danny
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 04-11-2004, 03:54 PM:
 
Dan...No. In fact the band is long enough to overlap itself by about a foot (30.5 cm). It's just placed so the film overlaps the band by about eighteen inches (45.7 cm) or so, then the band is wrapped around the exposed film end and properly secured with the string. Holds the film end in place much better.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 04-14-2004, 01:42 PM:
 

quote:

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A show of hands please for anyone who would actually want Thomas working for them (keep in mind also his comments about customer relations and management/staff relations).

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quote:

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another thing they like to do is put the bands on the reels and not even lable them with a reel number or anything.

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Or what's worse is the reel number is scribbled into the little circle on the band. So bad that you can't tell if it's a 4 or a 7, a 2 or a 5. They're not consistent in the direction they write them in.

But all of it won't matter since everyone will switch to ETS eventually.

Didn't trailers from NSS used to come with reel bands? Back when trailers had to actually be returned to be reused? Ah, the good old days when film wasn't "disposable" in the studios' eyes.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 04-14-2004, 01:59 PM:
 
Thomas--

You asked, "Didn't trailers from National Screen Service come
with reel bands"? YES... however that was when film was taken
care of!!

fjn

 

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Posted by Zach McQuaid (Member # 613) on 04-14-2004, 05:25 PM:
 
Wow! Feels good to be back here. (haven't been online in 4 years or so!) Anyway, Thanks Randy for refreshing my memory that I was a former member here and I looking forward to writing with all of you!!

In regards to the Technicolor Strap they are getting rid of...I am glad because like Randy used to say: "I hate Tape", I used to say: "I hate string!"

 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 04-15-2004, 09:01 AM:
 
New Fax as of 04/14/04 from TES

Attention: Theatre Managers and Projectionists

Last week we advised you of our plans to eliminate the use of reel bands sometime in mid-June. Several theatres have contacted us requesting more details on the tape to be used in lieu of reel bands.

The tape used will be higher grade of tape than is used by the films labs to bond the film reels before shipping to distribution centers. That tape is discarded, and we use a high grade PF2, printable paper flat back tape that is 5.8 mil thick. It has a natural, rubber adhesive that removes cleanly from a wide range of applied conditions, including film stock. Four-inches of tape will be applied and our employees will be trained to centrally postion two-inches of tape on each end.

As for assurance of this working, Technicolor has shipped, in cases of late arriving prints, on on average over 6,000 prints for at least each of the past six-years, absent reel bands, with said tape, without reported complaint.

Please call our Customer Service Team at 800-99-FILMS if you have additional questions.

Thank-you
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-15-2004, 09:19 AM:
 

quote:

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That tape is discarded, and we use a high grade PF2, printable paper flat back tape that is 5.8 mil thick. It has a natural, rubber adhesive that removes cleanly from a wide range of applied conditions, including film stock. Four-inches of tape will be applied and our employees will be trained to centrally postion two-inches of tape on each end.

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quote:

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Inspect the tape seals on each can. In addition, insure the identification on the can tape and label match.

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quote:

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our employees will be trained to centrally postion two-inches of tape on each end.

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quote:

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absent reel bands, with said tape, without reported complaint.

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quote:

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on on average over 6,000 prints for at least each of the past six-years

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Six years? 6 years for beta-testing tape? Hmmm...
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 04-18-2004, 06:18 PM:
 
Like the man said: "There are lies, and there are damned lies!"
 

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Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-19-2004, 05:22 PM:
 
Like technicolor has ever listened to any of our gripes before.
The junk reels they send out each week is proof.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-19-2004, 06:38 PM:
 
"Printable tape?" I predict the tape will be printed with something very useful like

TECHNICOLOR ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES
Title________________ Reel #______

and then nobody will ever fill the blanks in.

No, after thinking it over, I predict that only the first line above will appear on the tape. As if the orange cans aren't enough of a clue.

[ 04-20-2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Mike Blakesley ]
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-20-2004, 06:54 AM:
 
Jon posted a picture of a banded reel of film.

We don't have bands at all in England; I took a couple of pictures on Sunday, this is how our prints come:



What may look like a band is just a tape label on the film. The cans used to be metal, which got bent and dented, so the lids jammed. The plastic ones are better, but do sometimes get damaged, as this one was. The score line on the lid of the box is one of several different positions where it can be folded, depending on how many cans it needs to hold. This box had six cans in it, long films sometimes come in two boxes.

This works reasonably well, as long as the end of the film is taped down, and the can is reasonably full. I would rather see cans with a central spigot to hold the core in place, as someone once mentioned did exist somewhere.

Trailers do come with bands, held in place by elastic bands, like this:



Different colour bands indicate different BBFC certificates.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-20-2004, 03:58 PM:
 
Assuming that plastic "cans" were used with the center nipple/shaft to keep the core from shifting within them, I would VERY MUCH welcome the conversion of shipping films in this way over those joke reels the industry is using.

• If some useless projectionist before you was using cheap/used/not enough tape to hold the leader down, at least it wouldn't get tangled up between reels. Each pancake of film on a core would be in it's own plastic "can" within the normal shipping cans.
• Labels on the plastic "cans" wouldn't get discarded like reel bands or a label placed over the tip of the leader would.
• Projectionists would be forced to put just a little more effort into handling the film. As such this would end the whole "grab the reel out of the can and watch as the reel breaks in half and the film unspools at 30MPH down the booth.
• Shipping in plastic "cans" would speed up the packing for the depots so they could process the orders faster. Same goes for "junk day" at the depots.
• Plastic "cans" wouldn't break nearly as easy as those "reels" and are probably cheaper, so hopefully when a crack developed the depot workers would just toss it instead of trying to keep reusing it, which happens now.
• It would wake people up to the fact that so many platters out there on the market are shit for film handling during breakdown.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a wad over having to purchase an $80 split reel for their theater, just remember that whole cyan/red reader nonsense.
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 04-20-2004, 06:19 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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Plastic "cans" wouldn't break nearly as easy as those "reels" and are probably cheaper...

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quote: Brad Miller

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Assuming that plastic "cans" were used with the center nipple/shaft to keep the core from shifting within them...

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...which, stupidly, the UK ones don't. The only ones I've seen which do are Japanese, and the containers which the Cinémathèque Française ship their archive viewing prints in. I keep meaning to ask them where they buy them from.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-27-2004, 12:59 PM:
 
Leo, I haven't yet seen one of those cans, but I have seen a picture of one, and they look very good They shouldn't cost much more than a normal can, would be lightweight and provide good protection to the print. Why they're not being more widely used I don't know.

I'm still in New York at the moment, in the Easy Internet place on 42nd Street, flying back home on thursday evening.
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 06-17-2004, 05:45 PM:
 
Today, I received my first print from TES without reel bands: The Terminal. I don't know if this is the proposed change or not though... Each reel had its normal ID sticker on the head, and most reels had about four inches of what looked like the same tape TES has used to secure the tails of previous reels. Reel 2 on both prints didn't have the tape secured to the head, so the head was wrapped around another reel... Several other reels had the tape peeling itself off from the film.

Although I was happy not to see the reel bands, it's bittersweet to think that this is what I've got to look forward to. Is this what Technicolor is actually moving to?
 

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Posted by John A. Parker Jr. (Member # 1719) on 06-18-2004, 07:59 AM:
 
Well folks, got my first reel band less Technicolor print today. The tape that they promised would have been nice, but
instead all 6 reels were held down with nothing more than with one of their stupid inspection stickers! I have a bad feeling this is going to be the norm. And yeah, as usual, they didn't peel off. Way to go Technicolor!!!
Are we having fun yet?
 

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Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 06-18-2004, 10:07 AM:
 
Me too. It was like the post at the top of the page. It was a reel identification sticker that does not peel of to be reused. Had one reel that unravelled because this sticker was no where near close the end of the reel
 

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Posted by Dean Kollet (Member # 1789) on 06-18-2004, 12:04 PM:
 
we got three prints of Terminal and one was without bands...I don't know why they have to phase them out like this, but I guess there is some pathetic reason. Our print sans the reel bands was secured with tape, much like ETS does.

I think I saved 5 minutes building up that one print b/c I didn't have to mess around with reel bands...
 

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Posted by Dominic Case (Member # 1830) on 06-20-2004, 11:48 PM:
 

quote: John Pytlak

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Kodak still uses METAL cans for packaging motion picture film.

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quote:

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FPC also sells vented polypropylene cans:

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John, I have several of those and like them a lot.
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-21-2004, 11:11 AM:
 
Well, I've got both sides of the coin:

Got a print of "Dogville" from TES without reel bands, and the "Integrity INSPECTED" (not Checked, as some people have asserted) stickers stuck a few inches from the end of the leader. The leader was held down with the same tape they taped the reel bands to it with.

On the other hand, I got a print of "Jersey Girl" from ETS now that Miramax had switched. This one DID have the Technicolor reel bands, except one of them had fallen off, and the leader of Reel 4 was wrapped all around reels 5 and 6. The string for Reel 1 was wound tightly around the core and had to be ripped off. Reel 2 had no string and was just taped back on. Good riddance to these things. They're stupid and they protect the film just like airport security protects passengers. All an illusion.

That said, I have many of these now RARE and OUT OF PRINT reel bands which are sure to become COLLECTORS ITEMS since they have been DISCONTINUED!! -- $1 each. Supplies limited

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Adam Budweg (Member # 1901) on 06-21-2004, 06:14 PM:
 
Im happy. One of them never fails to lose its little fastener when taking them apart.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-21-2004, 07:22 PM:
 
Yeah, I was actually thinking of saving a few to put on eBay just to see what happens. Make sure they say the name of a movie. Actual Hollywood stuff! Wow.
 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 06-22-2004, 08:05 AM:
 
My boss freaks out if anybody throws away the reel bands. He used to call them "The Safety Film"
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 06-22-2004, 11:23 AM:
 
Dominic: Since we were talking about cans for 2000-foot rolls or less, I was of course referring to the metal cans Kodak uses for packaging camera, intermediate, sound negative, etc., films.

Vacuum packaging like Kodak uses for print stock is an excellent way to protect the film roll, but cannot be reused.
 

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Posted by Matt Hefright (Member # 2470) on 06-22-2004, 01:05 PM:
 
personally i'm glad to see the reel bands go. most of the reels were banded properly, however someone at the banding facility always seemed to wrap the string around the core of one of the reels making it virtually impossible to remove that band properly.

as to the change in dts cases there was a vote as to what method of transportation we preferred. i guess the dvd case won out. now if we can get ETS to stop shipping the big grey box.
 

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Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 06-22-2004, 01:08 PM:
 

quote: Matt Hefright

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now if we can get ETS to stop shipping the big grey box.

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I second and third that. Did they think it was going to be more convenient like that? Or maybe they thought that we could just send it up an elevator and not have to carry it. NEWSFLASH: Not everyone has elevators!
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-22-2004, 02:00 PM:
 
I fourth the anti-grey-box comments.

The cardboard boxes wouldn't be so bad if they held 3-4 reels each. Then, one could carry a somewhat balanced load (one in each hand). The 7-reel-box is just way too big and unweildy to be easy to carry for any distance.

I've been at places where films had to be carried between buildings (a few hundred yards). I don't know how I would do this with one of those boxes.
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 06-22-2004, 04:22 PM:
 
hey, at least the grey boxes are lightweight and have a marginally more comfortable handle. 2 smaller boxes would be preferable. speaking of which, whatever did happen to these bad boys? i only ever had one film come in those. i liked them.

carl
 

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Posted by Juan Angel Linarez (Member # 2449) on 06-22-2004, 05:40 PM:
 
Well personally I couldent be happier. I hated those annoying reel bands. I mean if they would have been made of better quality material, then maybe i would have dealt with them. By the time it was time to breakdown, you had to worry about putting those annoying bands that half of the time you had to put tape anyways becasue the string would be happy to come off.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-22-2004, 07:37 PM:
 
Likewise on the big gray box. Cut the size in half and it would be great. Going up is hell but I've found that placing the box on its side will allow it to slide gently down 2 of the 3 carpeted flights. The box is long enough to span the steps so it barely bumps. It has been tempting occasionally to take them another 10 steps up to the roof and give 'em the express to the sidewalk.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-22-2004, 08:46 PM:
 
Those gray boxes suck no matter what size they are, because of the flaps which get in the way, especially in a small both. We got one not too long ago which had no handle at all. I severely mistreated it and taped the crap out of it on return, hopefully mucking it up enough to have it taken out of service.
 

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Posted by Chris Hipp (Member # 1788) on 07-10-2004, 01:20 AM:
 
Well, looks like my position has changed on the reel bands. For the past three weeks, every technicolor print that I have built up have had at least two reels that the heads came loose during shipping. As annoying as I thought the bands were, I wish they would start using them again.
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-10-2004, 01:46 AM:
 
Yes, so far I have not been impressed with the new system.

Hint to TES: Copy whatever ETS is doing. They're prints never come from the depot with unsecured heads/tails.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-10-2004, 02:17 AM:
 
The prints I have received without reel bands are coming unraveled during shipping because:

A. they are reusing the original lab tape that was holding the leaders down. (They have to unroll the leaders to check title/reel number/audio language.)

or

B. they are using very short strips of white tape of about 2 inches. That's just not enough for transit across the country.

I got a used print in for the summer kid's film series and it was only secured with the little 1.5 inch wide IC sticker! All but one reel had it's leaders come loose during shipping. Not cool.
 

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Posted by Alan Dallas (Member # 2537) on 07-10-2004, 04:35 AM:
 
Ever since I started working projection at Harkins they had a in house procedure long before I got there for the bands you would get on reels from TES. Toss them out. They were either broke when we got them, strings wrapped around the spool, the button or string broke when attemping to reuse them. Waste of time when the company(Harkins) only gives you so many hours to get your film work done.

The procedure we use when breaking down is to place 4 to 5 inches of Scotch® General Purpose Masking Tape 234 to secure the leader(centered). The adhesive material used on the 234 is a Rubber Resin. Lets you pull the tape off with out leaving residue. The length we use should be more than enough to keep the leader secure. We always get the 3M stuff. Don't go for the cheap masking tape, it just dosen't hold.
 

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Posted by Richard Greco (Member # 2032) on 07-10-2004, 08:11 AM:
 
Every single reel of King Arthur had the leaders loose. Luckily none of them got damaged but there just isn't enough tape to keep them attatched. At this point, I actually miss the reel bands.

Why is it that ETS knows what they're doing?
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-10-2004, 01:01 PM:
 
Well, ETS has been shipping without reel bands for a long time now, they've had a lot more practice at doing it right.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-10-2004, 02:56 PM:
 
So, what happened to the machine-printed tape? Has anyone gotten that on a TES print?

TES prints travel a lot more than ETS prints do, but that doesn't seem sufficient to account for it. I will try to pay more attention the next time I see ETS prints that have travelled, rather than come from the local depot.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-10-2004, 06:01 PM:
 
I have been sent ETS prints from all over the country for studios who want a "full blown" inspection. I can vouch that when the prints come from the two coasts to Texas, the leaders are frequently mangled and loose in the cans. Shorter strips of tape work fine when they come out of the Dallas ETS depot, but you just never know where that print will go next.

Both ETS and TES need to listen here...6 inches of brand new never reused Artist's tape minimum. That's at least 3 inches on each side of the tip edge of the leader. That's what it takes to protect the film.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-10-2004, 06:51 PM:
 
This is probably a trivial point, but I always used to fold over about a centimetre of masking tape on the upper tip side of the head spacing, to create a tab with which the next projectionist could just pull the tape off without needing to scrape the end up with a fingernail.
 

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Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-11-2004, 12:53 AM:
 
Got my print of Anchorman that way.
(whine)
No problems with the tape (it was new), but is was somewhat of a pain to find the reel numbers. They weren't in the can in sequence, and reading them through the leader meant sometimes going through a couple layers of film to see them.
(/whine)
 

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 07-12-2004, 04:52 PM:
 
From the TES fax:

"The tape used will be higher grade of tape than is used by the films labs to bond the film reels before shipping to distribution centers. That tape is discarded, and we use a high grade PF2, printable paper flat back tape that is 5.8 mil thick. It has a natural, rubber adhesive that removes cleanly from a wide range of applied conditions, including film stock. Four-inches of tape will be applied and our employees will be trained to centrally postion two-inches of tape on each end."

Plain and simple: BULLSHIT!

I've waited for several prints to come in without the reel bands and now feel moved to comment.

All sorts of different things are at work here. Tape from the film labs discarded? I don't think so. They were left on in many cases, with additional tape applied overtop.

They use a high grade PF2? Not always. I got some reels fastened with plain old masking tape.

Four inches will be applied? You got to be kidding me! Many reels fastened with two inches max.

I've received new prints where the tape has come off several reels, and the leader spewed all over the can.

I've had experiences similar to Chris Hipp and Brad, and this operation has been going on less than a month!! It seems that it all depends on which jackass is mounting ( ?) the reels. No way are all these people being trained in the same manner.

Are you lurking distributors???? This is what you are paying for. Or don't you care ??
 

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Posted by Mark Gist (Member # 1895) on 07-12-2004, 11:18 PM:
 
I think i got some of this "new tape", (or maybe it's something else) from TES on a disney print last month, has "CINETYP" printed on the tape, and is yellow. This stuff really sucks, about 2 inches in length, and a 1/2 inch in width. Seem's to do the job, but once you take it off it looses most of it's stickiness, so you just know in the future your going to find prints where someone tried to re-use the tape, it just doesn't work, I see allot of damaged prints in the future. Yeah I do agree that reel band's can be real pain in the ass, but it's better than getting prints with leaders loose
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-13-2004, 05:30 AM:
 

quote: Mark Gist

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I think i got some of this "new tape", (or maybe it's something else) from TES on a disney print last month, has "CINETYP" printed on the tape, and is yellow.

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quote:

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Cinetyp's presence in the U.S. began in 1980. Over the past two decades, the company has subtitled more than 3,000 films. Cinetyp's Hollywood lab has grown into a large, hi-tech operation, located in the heart of the Los Angeles entertainment industry.

Cinetyp proudly serves the subtitling and captioning needs of motion picture studios and video production companies of all sizes

---

 

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Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-13-2004, 01:38 PM:
 
Maybe I can send you some of the excess tape that I've been getting from TES. Still, about six to eight inches of tape on the last few releases from them.
 

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Posted by Mark Gist (Member # 1895) on 07-13-2004, 05:10 PM:
 
haha, ok that makes sense
 

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Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-30-2004, 12:34 AM:
 
Both our prints of 'The Village' came in much better condition than previous reel-bandless Technicolor prints. They both had 6-8" of tape securing the film in addition to the promised printed labels. The labels weren't peelable but since they weren't positioned over the reel end that is fine with me.

We weren't booked for 'Thunderbirds' this week so I didn't get to see in what condition that came in.

Anyone else notice an improvement?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-30-2004, 06:31 AM:
 
The current (as in last week or two) TES standard is 6 inches minimum of 1/2" Artist's tape or 5 inches minimum of 3/4" Artist's tape. The management at the depot in Ohio have been working overtime lately trying to get all issues corrected and improve their service. If you see a print arriving without this minimum amount of tape (or other packing issues), please call the 1-800-99-FILMS hotline and let whoever answers know along with the name of the movie and print number. They can then track down which employees packed the film and make sure that they are following the policy.

Same goes for QC inspected prints if you get something in poor shape. They need to know in order to be able to improve their service.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-30-2004, 07:10 AM:
 
Does this new policy apply to _all_ prints shipped out of TES, or just new prints? If a theatre ships a print back to the depot with (say) 3" of tape, will it be removed and replaced with (say) 6" of tape?

What was so wrong with reel bands, anyway?
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-30-2004, 09:10 AM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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The management at the depot in Ohio have been working overtime lately trying to get all issues corrected and improve their service.

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 07-30-2004, 09:45 AM:
 
I would have retained the bands albeit with better string attachment. But I can see the point that with so many idiots out there cutting the strings, not reusing them and often tossing them altogether it's kind of a waste. Especially if the competition has dropped them and the studios don't wish to pay extra for them.

That a proper band and string holds the reel end better than anything else is simply not open to dispute; of course it does. Let's face it, if you were shipping your own personal mint condition print of your favorite film you'd want it banded!
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-30-2004, 12:21 PM:
 
We just got a print of "Terminal" with about 8" of tape on each reel. The tape looked new, so maybe they are retaping each time a reel goes out. If so, !

But bands would still be better.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-30-2004, 03:34 PM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

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Does this new policy apply to _all_ prints shipped out of TES, or just new prints? If a theatre ships a print back to the depot with (say) 3" of tape, will it be removed and replaced with (say) 6" of tape?

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quote: Scott Norwood

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What was so wrong with reel bands, anyway?

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Nothing was wrong with them; they were used on prints for decades and everyone knew how to tie a freakin piece of string around a fastener without ripping it (or without whining about having to do it). In years and years in booths, I rarely found prints arriving with all the film unraveled off the reels in a tangled mess of speggetti and I credit reel bands for this. Yet to hear people complain about them now, you would think they were complicated jigsaw puzzles designed to thwart projectionist's incredible efficiency.

Granted, the younger guys who only know the TES version of reelbands with that micro thin "string," yes, I can see why they seem to be overly annoyed by them, but the reelband idea is not an intrinsically bad one -- as I said, it worked very well for decades. And let's face it, reelband effectiveness probably shouldn't be judged by TES's version of it. I mean, if we judged the value of reels by the TES version, we would be demanding film be shipped on cores and complaining like wild banshees....oh, we already do that.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-30-2004, 07:12 PM:
 
I agree, the old dark cardboard bands such as used by NFS were fantastic! Even the early version of the TES bands were built well, they would just slice your hand open if you weren't careful. The latest version of the TES bands were not reinforced on the backside though and would rip after about 1 use.

It is also important to note that the vast majority of all prints never see a second playdate. Tape works well provided the depots use enough of it (5 inches of 3/4") and that the theaters are professional enough to do the same upon return.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-31-2004, 12:11 AM:
 
Reel bands made from Tyvek would retain the rivet and probably last longer than the print would be in service.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-31-2004, 11:05 AM:
 
Good idea, Bill. A very substantial reelband that was used by Films, Inc. and Swank on their 16mm prints were made, not of paper, but of a strip of flexable plastic with a kind of a spring clip on the end, no string needed. Thing is, there are probably plenty of better designes and alternatives but let's face it, the industry isn't worried about print life. Of the thousands of prints struck for each release, how many of them ever play past first run? And given the quality of today's releases, how many of the titles have any life in second run or in the retrospective repetory? Hell, I wonder how some of them have a life after the first weekend. So it is not surprising that a better reelband is the furthest thing from the concerns of distribution. I am sure there are more pressing issues for them -- like who charges the least to bandsaw and dispose of prints, 90% of which never get to play a second projection booth after their first run.

It would be interesting to document out of the number of theatres that play a given title when it breaks wide, how many of those say 2000, 3000 prints actually play secondary theatres...maybe 10%, 5%, 1%? My guess is that it would be a very small number. My guess also is, no one is worried about what winds up in those few theatres that do play titles after their initial runs.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-31-2004, 12:44 PM:
 
A "wide" release can vary greatly. "Spider-Man 2" played virtually everywhere, so I'm sure that the majority of those prints will never see a second booth. But when you have a more "normal" release that is considered "wide," but not "blown out" to every possibly location, the number of re-used prints would be much greater if the film is popular. "Big Fat Greek Wedding" comes to mind.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-01-2004, 08:10 AM:
 
This process must have been in place for at least a couple of weeks, then. This weekend, I ran three (different) prints shipped out of TES. All had been previously shown and two of the three had been plattered (leaders removed and, in these cases, reattached with masking tape ). They all arrived with about 6" of 1/2"-wide artist tape holding the leaders down. In some cases, this tape was applied _over_ the tape used by the previous theatre.

I would have preferred bands, but the tape did seem to do an adequate job of keeping the film from unraveling in transit.
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-01-2004, 10:21 AM:
 
How about Tyvek or other strong material and Velcro as the closure?
 

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Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 08-01-2004, 11:35 AM:
 

quote: Frank Angel was the last to post

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What was so wrong with reel bands, anyway?

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Everyone seems to live by the fact that the reel bands caused ZERO problems and worked PERFECTLY every time. More lies. I can't even count the number of times I got a print with the damn string either wrapped around the hub of the reel, or wrapped around the reel next to it, or somehow intwined with film from other reels, or the bands attached with tape, or loose to the point of spilling out everywhere, or the strings hanging out of the cans when the prints arrive or the string catches hanging on by a whisker....

And this was on NEW, FIRST-RUN prints!!

If the bands were sturdy as some have said they used to be or shoudl be, and if the people at the depot would care enough to properly attach them, then maybe, just maybe, I would have cared enough to re-attach them. I used to always re-attach them until it got to the point where I was taking more care with the reel bands then with the print itself. And thus, they became nothing more than "wrapping paper" that the prints came with, and were discarded as such. When they came in good shape and were reusable, I would do my best to send the print out with them. But that was a very, very rare occasion.

If I had a lab-mint print of MY feature, I wouldn't want the reel bands used. Instead, I would much prefer the full SMPTE countdown leader with an extra 10-15 feet on the head. Polygram used to do this. But that's just me.

=TMP=
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 08-01-2004, 05:12 PM:
 
I don't recall any of us advocating crappy bands (such as those where the button pops off at the slightest tug) or bands misapplied.

Your print with lots of extra leader will still need to be held down. Tape's track record in this is spotty so you're just as likely to open it and find one or more reels splooged (to borrow Ken's term for capacitor disembowelment) all over. I'd prefer a band and I think you would too.
 

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-01-2004, 11:13 PM:
 
It would cost alot, but heavy cardboard bands using VELCRO fasterners would be a great way to ship prints. An even better option than cardboard would be thick, stiff polyester 35mm perforated film leader:

http://www.fpchollywood.com/9120.html

Or a length of thick polyester leader could be ultrasonically spliced onto the head leader to provide the protective "wrap around" with a VELCRO, rivet/string, or tape fastener.
 

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Posted by Jon Miller (Member # 163) on 08-01-2004, 11:57 PM:
 
The Velcro idea sounds great, John (and others), but if the film-done-wrong club has problems with cardboard reel bands, won't they be just as careless with a Velcro-enhanced band?

In my audio-visual travels I've seen one too many cables returned wrapped in knots, the attached Velcro cable strap hanging loose or tied in some unusual way. You would think the strap's purpose is obvious, but some people just cannot get a hint even if it stared them right in the face.
 

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Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 08-02-2004, 02:56 AM:
 

quote:

---

An even better option than cardboard would be thick, stiff polyester 35mm perforated film leader:

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quote: John Pytlak

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Or a length of thick polyester leader could be ultrasonically spliced onto the head leader to provide the protective "wrap around" with a VELCRO, rivet/string, or tape fastener.

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